Get rid of SAM Limit break gimmick already (FL)

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

If Bard and Red Mage is not silence the moment SAM used Chiten to buy your team mate's enough time for Kuzushi effect to run out, blame on those players.

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1) What if you don't have a red mage or a bard?
2) Are you seriously asking team mates to react faster than the SAM that is literally glued to party lists?
3) If the SAM gets denied they'll just start again 25s later

It's always the same with people, they have literally no clue about the difference between optimal balance and effort balance, and will always give you perfect skill play counters and unicorn excuses to justify a rampant problem.

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

We just have different ideas of "shit game design." I have no issues dealing with SAM lb (in all pvp modes) and neither do most of the people in high level Crystal. In high level crystal games, most of the time SAM lb kills 1 person because 1. people don't clump up and 2. people have more awareness. SAM lb *usually* only catches people that are not paying attention. The only people that are complaining about SAM lb can't even get to crystal, so there's that. I get it, 80% of the people in FL just want to mindlessly kill things. The difference between me and the people complaining is that I'm 100% against mindless pvp, having something to keep you on your toes makes it more fun (for me atleast).

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Somebody hasn't been playing a lot of AOE reliant jobs I see.

I don't know if it has been said (I am too lazy to read all the pages in the thread lol) but I feel like the reason why this gimmick exists is because the rest of the SAM's kit is pretty bad. I think generally speaking it's the worst job for PvP, and it only gets worse in FLs where all its problems are amplified. Outside of Chiten, not just because it enables the LB to one shot but also because it gives a very powerful damage reduction. The kit is horrible and the one shot gimmick is the only thing keeping this job from flatlining. I am not defending the gimmick, I think it's dumb and should be changed to make the class not be terrible and over reliant on one ability.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I don't know if it has been said (I am too lazy to read all the pages in the thread lol) but I feel like the reason why this gimmick exists is because the rest of the SAM's kit is pretty bad. I think generally speaking it's the worst job for PvP, and it only gets worse in FLs where all its problems are amplified. Outside of Chiten, not just because it enables the LB to one shot but also because it gives a very powerful damage reduction. The kit is horrible and the one shot gimmick is the only thing keeping this job from flatlining. I am not defending the gimmick, I think it's dumb and should be changed to make the class not be terrible and over reliant on one ability.

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Big true. I never worry about a SAM charging me openly and in the clear unless they bring friends.
I'd love it if they changed their LB and gave their kit a big ole buff.
Only dnc feels like less of a threat than them (outside their LBs)

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Originally Posted by Kansene

Big true. I never worry about a SAM charging me openly and in the clear unless they bring friends.
I'd love it if they changed their LB and gave their kit a big ole buff.
Only dnc feels like less of a threat than them (outside their LBs)

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DNC is weird since you can argue there kit is also bad, but least you could cope with the fact your a support class just buffing someone. SAM doesn't contribute to the team at all, both in terms of damage and utility. And even if the LB does oneshot, you have to rely on two cooldowns to actually make it good. And that other CD being your main defensive tool outside of Guard. If the enemy team has the good thinking power to recognize to not attack the SAM who has that buff up, you're just wasting your CD and are now more vulnerable as a result.

I don't understand why people keep dissing on DNC considering its realtively high AOE/pressure potential. On top of being slippery to catch. It's not just a walking LB.

If anything it's the actual dance partner that kinda sucks since it's heavily restricted by range alone.

SAM never needed the one-shot mechanic in the first place. I was confused as to why they added it from the start. 24k damage that can ignore guard seems like enough to pressure a team. (I do wonder if the bug is fixed with the LB not applying damage when one guards, because I have dropped it and haven't touched it for months honestly.) If they felt like buffing the potency to 30k I'm fine with that too. The mechanic needs to go, because it's just not healthy for frontlines. You can hard CC SAM or even throw a bind to take away their option to LB for a couple of seconds. However, it doesn't change the fact that you'll never know when the enemy SAM has it ready. Perks of the limit break charging outside of combat :P

But hey...what do I know? I've stopped playing frontlines over a year ago.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't understand why people keep dissing on DNC considering its realtively high AOE/pressure potential. On top of being slippery to catch. It's not just a walking LB.

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With the exception of certain classes majority can punish DNC for just approaching. Therefore, majority is going to continue to look at DNCs as a free meal despite the crazy utility that they have. I think they have the most utilities in the game being buffs, heals, shields, and their LB, but being outrange by most classes it's probably going to continue to be overlooked until either a DNC main steps up and takes rank 1 for the CC season or the 15y range that they have gets buffed, the latter being more sensible.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Somebody hasn't been playing a lot of AOE reliant jobs I see.

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You mean like SMN, SAM, WAR. Sorry to burst your expectations but I play every class. There's just a skill difference between us which is why you have problems dealing with SAM and I don't. I know when not to AOE and when to AOE. You can pull people out of position by baiting them so that you won't have to aoe into a SAM (in CC). If it's FL and you're ranged, you can literally run out of range of SAM LB. I already went over things you can do in my previous post and I don't feel like going into more detail with bronze players. If you feel like SAM LB is OP, I can't help you anymore than I already did buddy.

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Originally Posted by Valence

1) What if you don't have a red mage or a bard?
2) Are you seriously asking team mates to react faster than the SAM that is literally glued to party lists?
3) If the SAM gets denied they'll just start again 25s later

It's always the same with people, they have literally no clue about the difference between optimal balance and effort balance, and will always give you perfect skill play counters and unicorn excuses to justify a rampant problem.

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First of all, there are many counters and I pick Bard and Red Mages because these two jobs are most popular jobs post 6.1, especially Bard is being popular since day one Frontline exist.
This render your "what if" scenario pretty much pointless.
In my 20,000+ games I haven't see a single Frontline match where there is no Bard at least.

For your second point, no, I do not and will never expect my teammates to react faster than SAM; but I do expect them to understand the fundamental of their job and simple ability to follow the countdown macro.
Take example of Bard (because it is easier to understand to avoid complexity), it is a support job and the ability of using Silent Noctourne defines this job.
We won't even see QQ of DRK, SAM, or Monk in Secure if Bard knows how to use Paeon and Silent effectively.

In regard to your last point, I don't have that issue because I use countdown focus macro.
Normal SAM is either dead before he can cast LB or die after his Kuzushi effect is neutralized.
Remember, as long as you lower this SAM's HP threshold under 50%, he is as good as dead because of Ninja (please don't say what if there is no ninja, because that is literally impossible this expansion)
SAM played by veterans, I will just repeat and rinse, no big deal.
Still, it doesn't warrant this as issue of job design

I am not saying current SAM design isn't cheap.
I actually pretty much hate it because SAM was my primary in 4.0 and 5.0.
Since patch 2.4, SE has never revert their PvP job design.
Each ability always has multiple counters.
You don't like SAM this expansion?
You will just have to wait for next major change like me in which is patch 7.1

@Garten I totally agree that some jobs have a disadvantage against this "gimmick." The new pvp style is more similar to Overwatch than it is to arena style. People are finding that hard to grasp. It's not meant for a single player to single handedly win a game (which I get is possible if you're a SAM and the other team is clueless but the LB has 2 min charge time - so it means it can be used generally about 2-3x in 1 CC game whereas other LBs can be almost spammed <i.e. WHM>). It's meant to be played more of as a team.

If you're a MCH in frontline you should not be dying to SAM AT ALL. In FL, a SAM innately mitigates more dmg than a MCH does. So why would you even try to solo a SAM? This is all assuming you are in a 1v1 or similar situation. In a 1v1, you can literally run away. You gotta know when to run and when to stay. If it's a scenario where it's multiple people on your team vs a lonely SAM, you SHOULD BE EXPECTING A SAM LB, so use extra precaution. If he gets away, so what? Atleast you won't lose your BH if you have it.

I think it all comes down to awareness and experience. Good players will know when other players are about to use certain skills/LBs, it's sort of an intuition. Anybody can learn this with experience. Sometimes it's kinda like Chess, you have to think ahead of what this player might do in the current situation.

I.E.: you're running away from a SAM in a 1v1, he'll probably chase you if he's full HP and none of your teammates are around. A SAM has a bind and stun so be prepared for that. You don't need to purify the bind if you have a lot of HP because the stun is more dangerous. If he binds you, and you see him cast oki namakiri, then shield immediately because that's the SAM's burst window. There's also a chance that he'll pop Chiten (blue buff) at the same time so that he can do more dmg to you and also possibly LB 1 shot you. So be prepared for that. If he doesn't have the buff on, just use either AAnchor (norm or analyzed) OR an Analyzed Bioblaster and then sprint, forcing him to use his purify if he wants to keep chasing you. Usually they'll back up after that. If he keeps going, the CC you used should've gave you plenty of space, he will probably dash + stun you next, so be prepared to purify. Once you purify the stun you're pretty much home free. You can also use LoS (line of sight) i.e. corners to prevent him from dashing to you. Obviously don't use your blast charge to attack him while you're trying to run away (the dmg isn't worth it, you slow down in movement and you have a cast time). Good MCHs will be able to "kite" SAMs with their toolkit.
If you get stunned first, just purify it and then do everything else pretty much the same as above. If you have enough mana to recuperate, you probably won't even need to purify in FL because their (SAM) burst is mitigated already.

Not attacking a SAM is a perfectly good tactic, there are so many other squishies that can be taken out instead of a tanky SAM in FL.

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

You mean like SMN, SAM, WAR. Sorry to burst your expectations but I play every class. There's just a skill difference between us which is why you have problems dealing with SAM and I don't. I know when not to AOE and when to AOE. You can pull people out of position by baiting them so that you won't have to aoe into a SAM (in CC). If it's FL and you're ranged, you can literally run out of range of SAM LB. I already went over things you can do in my previous post and I don't feel like going into more detail with bronze players. If you feel like SAM LB is OP, I can't help you anymore than I already did buddy.

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This guy was not wearing pants when he wrote this. I would bet money he even got the money shot in his own mouth.

I don’t think Nubrication has ever played a video game

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

With the exception of certain classes majority can punish DNC for just approaching. Therefore, majority is going to continue to look at DNCs as a free meal despite the crazy utility that they have. I think they have the most utilities in the game being buffs, heals, shields, and their LB, but being outrange by most classes it's probably going to continue to be overlooked until either a DNC main steps up and takes rank 1 for the CC season or the 15y range that they have gets buffed, the latter being more sensible.

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Can't say I can relate. I've played it, seen it played, and they were rarely first targets for the very reason they're actually tough for a ranged, if they keep Fan Dance IV up, on top of being able to zip all around, in and out at will when taking the slightest bit of damage. You're not supposed to spamm Honing Dance on cd either, and time it for the correct moments. Sometimes using it wrong means you're gonna get punished hard, and that's the skill it takes to play it, much like some other jobs have to be careful with similar mechanics (BLM with burst, RDM with melee, etc).

Where I play most people always keep the DNC for last for the simple reason that they're an absolute pain to catch and kill. On top of it, there is often juicier targets to get rid of (like top pressure dealers like BLM/SMN or even MCH), or convenient targets to punish like melees or tanks to relieve frontline pressure on your own team when they dip way too far into your lines. Yeah, I'm talking for CC, not FLs, obviously. Although i'm pretty sure you can do a lot of nasty stuff with DNC in FLs tbh, between the AoE and the LB.

The slightly lower range they have can be annoying but I actually agree with the principle. They don't have any casting like MCH or BRD do, and aren't a turret damage dealer. They're literally between a ranged and a melee job, and a good DNC is actually gonna try to bait more damage off their allies by just being behind the melees. You have so much mobility that it's disgustingly easy to take damage, guard, use defensives, heal with waltz, and zip away when you're done.

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

You mean like SMN, SAM, WAR. Sorry to burst your expectations but I play every class. There's just a skill difference between us which is why you have problems dealing with SAM and I don't. I know when not to AOE and when to AOE. You can pull people out of position by baiting them so that you won't have to aoe into a SAM (in CC). If it's FL and you're ranged, you can literally run out of range of SAM LB. I already went over things you can do in my previous post and I don't feel like going into more detail with bronze players. If you feel like SAM LB is OP, I can't help you anymore than I already did buddy.

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If the only argument you have is skill difference to put the emphasis on your insecurities, then thank you for making my point. I don't feel the need to flaunt my rank and background experience at every opportunity, whatever it means anyway (not much).

*people building an essay on Samurai's counters and telling some skill issue nonsense*
Me while giggling like an idiot: I press Meikyo, that's it. Smart samurais know how to make people groan in frustration rofl.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't understand why people keep dissing on DNC considering its realtively high AOE/pressure potential. On top of being slippery to catch. It's not just a walking LB.

If anything it's the actual dance partner that kinda sucks since it's heavily restricted by range alone.

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DNC is a free kill a lot of times. Their LB is the only thing that keeps them viable.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

*people building an essay on Samurai's counters and telling some skill issue nonsense*
Me while giggling like an idiot: I press Meikyo, that's it. Smart samurais know how to make people groan in frustration rofl.

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Meikyo will not save you from animation lock, especially when it is done by 2 monks or 1 monk with a ninja to finish it

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Meikyo will not save you from animation lock, especially when it is done by 2 monks or 1 monk with a ninja to finish it

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Yeah but unless I am focused hard which majority of time I will just move with tanks and all, if i dive in first then I am dead lol.
Monks are the best single target counters in general so they have to decide if they want to use LB on the Sam or others depending on the situation. That's the fun/unfun part,: you counter other counters and so on
But in the end Samurai's LB is some lame stupid gimmick that shouldn't exist as it is, whatever you have awareness or not.
I do not have any hopes these kind of stuff get changed anyway, I just adapt and accept this until something happens in CC since it is the base for balancing...

That is the correct attitude.
Not only 6.1 version SAM, I dislike everything about 6.1 PvP and prefer 5.1 version, but I learned to adopt
SE will not revert the job design because whatever the QQ in this thread nevertheless is people issue
Do I die from SAM lb?
Occasionally, I do.
Do I bother by it?
No because it is easier to neutralize SAM compares to the challenge of keep HO above 50% to avoid Ninja lb

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Originally Posted by Ransu

DNC is a free kill a lot of times. Their LB is the only thing that keeps them viable.

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Total opposite in my experience. They rarely die unless they kinda suck. I feel that a lot of people have no idea how to play them, which is fair because their toolkit is a bit puzzling at first.

They're extremely vulnerable during LB though, that animation lock is no joke.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If the only argument you have is skill difference to put the emphasis on your insecurities, then thank you for making my point. I don't feel the need to flaunt my rank and background experience at every opportunity, whatever it means anyway (not much).

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I have no clue what insecurities you are making up in fairy tale land. I'm simply responding to your comment. Bad players can't deal with SAM LB. I've said it so many times in comments that weren't even directed at you. You chose to respond to me first because of your own insecurities and assumptions whereas my original comment was directed at OP. Don't put your own insecurities and lack of play on me. Thanks and Cheers.

P.S. if you don't have rank you have nothing to flaunt in the first place.
The thing that's crazy is that your pvp background experience is basically nil, yet here you are complaining about "SAM gimmick."

Or so you say. I'm highly amused at all the assumptions. Keep going I guess.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Or so you say. I'm highly amused at all the assumptions. Keep going I guess.

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Its not really assumptions at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Its not really assumptions at this point.

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nah it is, yall just love to make assumptions... you being one of them :)

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

I have no clue what insecurities you are making up in fairy tale land. I'm simply responding to your comment. Bad players can't deal with SAM LB. I've said it so many times in comments that weren't even directed at you. You chose to respond to me first because of your own insecurities and assumptions whereas my original comment was directed at OP. Don't put your own insecurities and lack of play on me. Thanks and Cheers.

P.S. if you don't have rank you have nothing to flaunt in the first place.
The thing that's crazy is that your pvp background experience is basically nil, yet here you are complaining about "SAM gimmick."

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bruh if you're trying defending the samurai instant win button by saying 'its a skill issue' you need to seriously touch some grass, because you are SO very wrong.

if i can literally instantly kill you for even lightly slapping me and able to literally RP walk away from your dead body, it might be time for the saumrai gimmick to be nerfed in some fashion.

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

I have no clue what insecurities you are making up in fairy tale land. I'm simply responding to your comment. Bad players can't deal with SAM LB. I've said it so many times in comments that weren't even directed at you. You chose to respond to me first because of your own insecurities and assumptions whereas my original comment was directed at OP. Don't put your own insecurities and lack of play on me. Thanks and Cheers.

P.S. if you don't have rank you have nothing to flaunt in the first place.
The thing that's crazy is that your pvp background experience is basically nil, yet here you are complaining about "SAM gimmick."

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The fact machinist can't use turret and can't use wildfire ever after 2 minutes in and can't use scattershot, bioblaster or chainsaw just because one job is near you and on the field that can oneshot you is rediculous and trying to defend it is just ludicrous.

No one job should force another to not be able to use over half their kit by just being around when they have their lb up.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

The fact machinist can't use turret and can't use wildfire ever after 2 minutes in and can't use scattershot, bioblaster or chainsaw just because one job is near you and on the field that can oneshot you is rediculous and trying to defend it is just ludicrous.

No one job should force another to not be able to use over half their kit by just being around when they have their lb up.

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Why are you in range of the SAM to begin with?

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

nah it is, yall just love to make assumptions... you being one of them :)

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Someone's still salty they got called out on being bad at pvp.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Why are you in range of the SAM to begin with?

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>Infinite Sprint
>Can Blink/Dash instantly with minimum delay without Targeting.
>"Bro why you are in sam range xd"

At least try harder.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

>Infinite Sprint
>Can Blink/Dash instantly with minimum delay without Targeting.
>"Bro why you are in sam range xd"

At least try harder.

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Infinite sprint, you make it sound like you are not the same and if he attacks, the sprint will drop while he is attacking while you have aethrial manipulation.
You also can frozen the target and most people won't purify out of that.
Hyousetsu on top bind you for 2s but both Midare and Ogi Namikiri are cast and you already either move away or in defense already (not to mention he need to Meikyo first before Midare)
At least prepared when you are playing victim card.

You honestly can keep going on your crusade of ranting
SE do not revert their PvE/PvP design during an expansion and it is usually minor tune up every one expansion and fundamental change every two expansions.
You are rightfully to say you don't like current PvP deisgn (honestly, I don't either and prefer 5.1)
Learn to adpot to changes if you want to continue to play on Frontline
Otherwise, your ranting pretty much end you up with skill issue in the eyes of veterans because counters are in the game and it is depend on your judgement and your own CD management
You may keep ranting now if you choose to

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Someone's still salty they got called out on being bad at pvp.

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Well, when i seeing he wants stats back into PvP, that already tells me what I need to know
Not sure why people want that when gear discpreancy has been issue in WoW PvP where Blizzard never able to blance out between PvP gear and PvE gear.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

i cannot argue with what you just said so im going to insult you.

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why not just realize your opinion is not fact and cry about your crystal rank not meaning anything somewhere else?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Well, when i seeing he wants stats back into PvP, that already tells me what I need to know.

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Oh yeah? what does it tell you buddy? i bet its another worthless assumption! :D

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

why not just realize your opinion is not fact and cry about your crystal rank not meaning anything somewhere else?

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Didn't you get hard stuck in bronze and then bragged about how good you are because you farmed the field commanders coat? lmao.

We've all seen enough of your posts to know how bad you are at pvp.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Blah blah im crystal rank blah blah.

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neat, tell me again how you won that lottery that nobody cares about.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

neat, tell me again how you won that lottery that nobody cares about.

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Damn, I need to go play the real lottery if making crystal in 3 different seasons was just luck.

Or maybe you're just bad at pvp.

damn... troll ransu is being epicly owned rn fr fr

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Why are you in range of the SAM to begin with?

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Because they hand out dashes and teleport left and right to melee jobs while already having infinite sprint?

Because Bioblaster forces you to get close or keep at range spamming a useless basic attack?

Because even if you deploy the turret on yourself, they can dash on you and get turret zapped, you still get debuffed and the lb is a dash aswell and as machinist there's 0 escape from that?

Are we really gonna pretend it isn't super easy in FL as a melee job to dominate any ranged job?
All ranged physicals are freelo in FL, everyone knows this, why even pretend it's so hard for any melee job at all to get in range and wipe them out? Well except reaper, that's the only melee job you can 100% ignore in fl on any job as it does nothing outside of the LB.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

blah blah i have no life so i waste it here.

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maybe get a job?

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

damn... troll ransu is being epicly owned rn fr fr

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hes just being a goblin because he knows im right.