New Unreal is a an all around miserable experience.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Because, as you said yourself, they perceive you as wanting to take it away. Is it that hard to understand that, once given a toy, people don't want it taken away while they're playing with it?

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So it's fine to take Unreal away from me by massively increasing the difficulty, because I'm a filthy scrub who doesn't want to feel like they are taking a 3h organic chemistry final just to complete it? Since the new one is Savage level difficulty. It's just not fine to ask for it back? Because that's taking something away from people who already have a bunch similar difficulty content they can do. I just want to be clear one this.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

So it's fine to take Unreal away from me by massively increasing the difficulty, because I'm a filthy scrub who doesn't want to feel like they are taking a 3h organic chemistry final just to complete it? Since the new one is Savage level difficulty. It's just not fine to ask for it back? Because that's taking something away from people who already have a bunch similar difficulty content they can do. I just want to be clear one this.

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LMAO when did it become your unreal again? Dude you are acting like child protective services took away your child lmao

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Originally Posted by Issaella

So it's fine to take Unreal away from me by massively increasing the difficulty, because I'm a filthy scrub who doesn't want to feel like they are taking a 3h organic chemistry final just to complete it? Since the new one is Savage level difficulty. It's just not fine to ask for it back? Because that's taking something away from people who already have a bunch similar difficulty content they can do. I just want to be clear one this.

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It's not fine that there's very little current mid-core content, but it's also hard to have any sympathy for you personally.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

So it's fine to take Unreal away from me by massively increasing the difficulty, because I'm a filthy scrub who doesn't want to feel like they are taking a 3h organic chemistry final just to complete it? Since the new one is Savage level difficulty. It's just not fine to ask for it back? Because that's taking something away from people who already have a bunch similar difficulty content they can do. I just want to be clear one this.

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But they didn't increase the difficulty and take anything away from you. It's the same fight as it was then, just like all the other Unreals before this were the same fight as when they were released. Yes, some extremes are easier than others, just like some raids are harder than others, some ultimates are harder than others, etc.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

So it's fine to take Unreal away from me by massively increasing the difficulty, because I'm a filthy scrub who doesn't want to feel like they are taking a 3h organic chemistry final just to complete it?

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Something tells me you started doing Unreal with Ultima Weapon, and never actually experienced Titan, Leviathan, or even Shiva Unreal.
If you had, you'd know how much of a joke Ultima Weapon Unreal was, and how the difficulty hasn't increased by that much with Sephirot Unreal, compared the the three unreal trials I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Something tells me you started doing Unreal with Ultima Weapon, and never actually experienced Titan, Leviathan, or even Shiva Unreal.
If you had, you'd know how much of a joke Ultima Weapon Unreal was, and how the difficulty hasn't increased by that much with Sephirot Unreal, compared the the three unreal trials I mentioned.

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All of those fights you mentioned could not be cleared in party finder.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Why was is fine for UW Unreal to be midcore last patch so I at least had something to do that didn't fry my brain every week? And all the hardcore players weren't screaming for buffs while they did their Sav/Ult? But when I ask for the current Unreal to at least return to the same ballpark difficulty I'm trying to take something away from them when I now have nothing challenging to do that doesn't leave me feeling frustrated/angry every week. Whereas last patch I could at least enjoy my weekly Unreal clears and acquire some mounts/minions/cosmetics at a relatively slow pace.

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Because the Savage/Ultimate crowd is a bunch of spoiled brats who hate the idea that anyone who isn't in their static groups might be able to get something out of content that's exclusively theirs.

Don't you realize that their $15/mo is worth more than our $15/mo?

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

All of those fights you mentioned could not be cleared in party finder.

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They 100% can, you can clear DSR in PF, if you can’t clear shiva EX in PF that might be more a personal problem

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Because the Savage/Ultimate crowd is a bunch of spoiled brats who hate the idea that anyone who isn't in their static groups might be able to get something out of content that's exclusively theirs.

Don't you realize that their $15/mo is worth more than our $15/mo?

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As opposed to the casual crowd who get 99% of the games content directed at them

Why is their 15 more than our 15 who are holding onto the last vestiges of the content directed at us

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

They 100% can, you can clear DSR in PF, if you can’t clear shiva EX in PF that might be more a personal problem

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From the threads back then we 100% know it was a personal problem.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

All of those fights you mentioned could not be cleared in party finder.

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Selective reading?

I was pointing out that Unreal trials have generally been difficult, and that Sephirot Unreal hasn't increased that general difficulty by much. Ultima Weapon is the outlier, since the Unreal version was just as much of a joke as the EX version.

This thread takes me back. Wonder if we'll get another round of SKIP SOAR OR DISBAND :')

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Originally Posted by Issaella

First off, don't presume to tell me what level of challenge I should enjoy in a video game. I get my fill of anxiety and disappointment in rl, I don't need it from what is ostensibly supposed to be an enjoyable hobby. I'm seeing this mentality infect multiplayer games and MMOs in general in the last few years. That the end-game content and rewards should be exclusively for people in upper skill percentile and everyone else should "git gud" or shut-up/leave because their opinions don't matter. And that to engage with said content you should be happy wiping for 10s of hours and being miserable because that is the road to enjoyment. I don't understand this mentality at all.

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You misunderstand me. I am by no means telling you or anyone for that matter what level of difficulty they should find enjoyable. However, what I am telling you is no different than the players who want casual content scaled up in difficulty; and I tell them that the level of challenge that they find enjoyable does not, and cannot determine the level for everyone else.

I am also not telling players to be happy because they keep failing the duty. I am advising that players embrace the experience. To find more value in the encounter than just getting a clear, and picking up your weekly reward/currency. When you do not have any other value about the encounter, then it becomes a complete waste of time when you do not get the clear. This does not mean to not value the clear, or strive for it. What it means is that this content is set at a difficulty level where clears are not guaranteed, and will require work and coordination from the players involved. If you want to do this content AND enjoy it; it is imperative that you find value elsewhere in the encounter. That is what I am telling you.

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I kinda seems like you do. You seem to delight in people repeatedly failing at content you can do easily because of some misguided idea that if you make them miserable enough they will get to your level. God forbid people have lower skill levels and ask for something to be a level of challenge between auto-piloting Expert/Normal and meatgrinder Sav/Ex and now Unreal. It seems like whenever people do ask for something in between the immediate response is always some variation of "git gud", "stop trying to take away my hardcore content", or "lol no one cares about your opinion scrub".

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I haven't cleared the fight yet. I am right there with everyone else who have not picked up Faux Leves this week. I do care about your view on the matter otherwise I wouldn't be responding to you. A person not in total agreeance with you is not automatically your enemy.

What I am trying to do is offer a different perspective on the matter, and enlighten players to the experience that is taking place right under their very noses. I will defend casual content from having its difficulty increased until I pass out. Likewise with Unreal content and where its difficulty is scaled at. This content is supposed to be designed in a way where the team is not rewarded for incompetence. Players can derp all day long in casual content and still clear it. This content is not like that. The enjoyment I derive from players learning this is exactly that; they are being humbled. They are being let known that constantly screwing up and derping your rotations will result in failure. It's same kind of enjoyment a person gets when their younger sibling goes through the same experience they went through.

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Why does every piece of high-end content have to cater to the top 20-5% of people who can clear savage (this Unreal is at least on par with an early or mid range Sav from last tier in my experience)? Because we know those are the actual number from clearing the first and last fight of a tier while it's current. Can't there be something for the rest of us that doesn't require 100% of our mental energy for hours on end just to break through a wall?

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While this fight has definitely been one of the harder EX/Unreal encounters I have done to date; it is actually less mechanically intense than some other EX fights I've done. Dying Gasp and Seat of Sacrifice EX were both much more demanding mechanically than this fight.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

This thread takes me back. Wonder if we'll get another round of SKIP SOAR OR DISBAND :')

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I am really hoping we get Zurvan Unreal, because due to the ilv sync, there will be no, "SKIP SOAR OR DISBAND".

I think the devs might even throw it in soon for that exact reason.

0.6 baby. LET'S GO!

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I am really hoping we get Zurvan Unreal, because due to the ilv sync, there will be no, "SKIP SOAR OR DISBAND".

I think the devs might even throw it in soon for that exact reason.

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I would bet that soar gets nerfed if Zurv gets the unreal treatment. I would guess it's getting either a drastic cutdown of it's damage so it can be healed through to an extent or the size or number gets cut down.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I would bet that soar gets nerfed if Zurv gets the unreal treatment. I would guess it's getting either a drastic cutdown of it's damage so it can be healed through to an extent or the size or number gets cut down.

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Soar wasn’t even that hard a mechanic it was literally just “bellwether for group has decent DPS”, zurvan wouldn’t need any changes it they unrealed it

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I am also not telling players to be happy because they keep failing the duty. I am advising that players embrace the experience. To find more value in the encounter than just getting a clear, and picking up your weekly reward/currency. When you do not have any other value about the encounter, then it becomes a complete waste of time when you do not get the clear. This does not mean to not value the clear, or strive for it. What it means is that this content is set at a difficulty level where clears are not guaranteed, and will require work and coordination from the players involved. If you want to do this content AND enjoy it; it is imperative that you find value elsewhere in the encounter. That is what I am telling you.

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The only reason I do the high end content is the reward. Which makes you exactly right. And that is unlikely to change. Failure and wiping for hours on end with no reward is nothing less than a complete waste of time, wiping on a phase I have already cleared is wasted time and spending hours in the PF just to get a weekly clear of content I have already cleared is a waste of time. I don't enjoy this difficulty of content for it's own sake, it feels like a job, a job I hate doing, I enjoy the rewards once I obtain them. Having slogged my way through p2s for 6 weeks in the PF on Crystal last patch I can say that unless the rewards are something I absolutely must have then I'm not engaging with that difficulty of content anymore. Seph Unreal is easily on par with p2s from my experience, if not worse. I did Seph with people significantly more skilled than me and we couldn't even come close to clearing it in 4h of wiping, we barely made to Storm of Word (or w/e it's called) 2 times. I at least saw enrage after 4 or 5h of prog in p2s. Trying to do Seph Unreal in the PF is going to absolute hell.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What I am trying to do is offer a different perspective on the matter, and enlighten players to the experience that is taking place right under their very noses. I will defend casual content from having its difficulty increased until I pass out. Likewise with Unreal content and where its difficulty is scaled at. This content is supposed to be designed in a way where the team is not rewarded for incompetence. Players can derp all day long in casual content and still clear it. This content is not like that. The enjoyment I derive from players learning this is exactly that; they are being humbled.

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I don't need to be humbled, I already assume I'm the anchor dragging everyone else down in this difficulty of content. I want something at a difficulty level that doesn't make me mentally exhausted and feel like **** even when I do manage to clear it, because all I have to look forward to is slogging through it again next week. Conversly I'm bored of Normal/Expert within a few weeks of sleepwalking through it. The previous Unreal was at a level that at least let me feel basic confidence in my ability to clear it, unlike Sav. Now I don't even have that. Savage always felt like I was barely grasping at the edge of a ledge and about to fall no matter how many times I did it.

https://i.imgur.com/ErSimyw.png

cleared it and got fox WHOOO.
and now for the retelling

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I would bet that soar gets nerfed if Zurv gets the unreal treatment. I would guess it's getting either a drastic cutdown of it's damage so it can be healed through to an extent or the size or number gets cut down.

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They don't change these fight in any way other than upscaling it for max level. The SOAR players would face will be close to, if not exact to scale as Zurvan was on release. However, healers will have have more depth to their healing kits at 90. It really won't matter though if too many players fail the mechs during SOAR.

The thing about SOAR is this mech will likely buckle progs that have players who are new to position assignments. They are just not going to know why they need to stand where they need to stand until they kill themselves, and likely others as well. SOAR is actually an outdated mechanic know, and players who actively run EX and above have encountered many more mechanics of similar or greater demand and coordination.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

The only reason I do the high end content is the reward. Which makes you exactly right. And that is unlikely to change. Failure and wiping for hours on end with no reward is nothing less than a complete waste of time, wiping on a phase I have already cleared is wasted time and spending hours in the PF just to get a weekly clear of content I have already cleared is a waste of time. I don't enjoy this difficulty of content for it's own sake, it feels like a job, a job I hate doing, I enjoy the rewards once I obtain them. Having slogged my way through p2s for 6 weeks in the PF on Crystal last patch I can say that unless the rewards are something I absolutely must have then I'm not engaging with that difficulty of content anymore. Seph Unreal is easily on par with p2s from my experience, if not worse. I did Seph with people significantly more skilled than me and we couldn't even come close to clearing it in 4h of wiping, we barely made to Storm of Word (or w/e it's called) 2 times. I at least saw enrage after 4 or 5h of prog in p2s. Trying to do Seph Unreal in the PF is going to absolute hell.

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Then don't do it. The content is optional, and the rewards can be obtained through other means. The rewards for Unreal content are actually pretty lackluster considering the difficulty of some of the fights, and then tying the currency rewarded to the results of another mini game. In my eyes, I don't know why anyone would do Unreal content other than the difficulty. The difficulty is also the idea behind the entire content. This content was implemented specifically for players looking for a little more challenge. Honestly, fights on the scale of UW really should be avoided in the future.

You also say you want something a little more in the middle. Guess what? Sephirot Unreal is exactly that. Others have stated that he is not upper floor savage difficulty. Certainly not Ultimate difficulty. But yeah, he is definitely more difficult than UW Unreal. Without question. But if you're just going to fold up and give in when the content isn't even a week old yet, then you might want to stick to the casual content. It doesn't really sound like you want to do harder content. UW Unreal is on the scale of a slightly more difficult NM raid. IOW, players can derp like crazy in this fight and still clear it. Again, this is not the intent behind EX/Unreal content.

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I don't need to be humbled, I already assume I'm the anchor dragging everyone else down in this difficulty ofcontent. I want something at a difficulty level that doesn't make me mentally exhausted and feel like **** even when I do manage to clear it, because all I have to look forward to is slogging through it again next week. Conversly I'm bored of Normal/Expert within a few weeks of sleepwalking through it. The previous Unreal was at a level that at least let me feel basic confidence in my ability to clear it, unlike Sav. Now I don't even have that. Savage always felt like I was barely grasping at the edge of a ledge and about to fall no matter how many times I did it.

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No one needing to be humbled will admit to needing to be humbled. It doesn't make it any less true. I get it. UW was 'just right' in terms of the difficulty you're looking for. Self-depreciating by convincing yourself that you're the weak link isn't going to help your confidence level. If it is any consolation, previous EX fights can still provide a challenge level similar to UW. There will also be Unreal trials released in the future that won't be as difficult as Sephirot. So perhaps sit this round out, and see what comes around next patch.

Be happy they have not gotten the idea to do a Unreal version of Living liquid. :D

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Be happy they have not gotten the idea to do a Unreal version of Living liquid. :D

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Now they have. Thank you. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Now they have. Thank you. :rolleyes:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdasbLKm4s0 :D

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Be happy they have not gotten the idea to do a Unreal version of Living liquid. :D

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6MlHxAzLXA

I'm going to assume you never did EX during 2.0 & 3.0.


Unreal, as far as I recall was supposed to be a "faithful' recreation of the original fight just tuned to current maximum level.
If he's doing a number on groups then it's indeed a faithful recreation.



If it's too hard and you don't have fun I'd advise you to run normal content, if you find that to be too dull then maybe try the 4.0 and/or 5.0 ex with minimum ilvl enabled so you still have to pay attention to mechanics. Those ex are easier then the 3.0 are.

It's Sephirot Unreal. That description alone should have been enough to tell anyone paying attention what kind of meat grinder they're stepping into and send them screaming for the hills. XD

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Originally Posted by Limecat

It's Sephirot Unreal. That description alone should have been enough to tell anyone paying attention what kind of meat grinder they're stepping into and send them screaming for the hills. XD

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People truly don’t realise how much easier the game has gotten so they imagine sephirot and think “zodiark”

Trying to explain to people that current ultimate is roughly old savage just a bit longer and they lose their minds

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Originally Posted by Issaella

You have Sav, Ultimate, and Ex. Why can't we have 1 piece of content that people can do without hours upon hours of misery?

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you have the whole ass game that bends over backwards, why cant I have more content that doesnt treat me like a toddler grow up jesus its a EX fight not a cakewalk

i like the new unreal, i got to relive my heavensward raiding days :)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

People truly don’t realise how much easier the game has gotten so they imagine sephirot and think “zodiark”

Trying to explain to people that current ultimate is roughly old savage just a bit longer and they lose their minds

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Yea wasnt ultimate created to be in line with that one infamous alex tier?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Yea wasnt ultimate created to be in line with that one infamous alex tier?

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More or less. After the massive reduction in difficulty from Creator onward, Ultimate was meant to serve as the replacement for those who enjoyed that level of difficulty while Savage moved closer to midcore levels. Which is a bit ironic considering the OP has professed several times how they want midcore content yet fail to realize the EXs and early floors of Savage are considered midcore.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

So it's fine to take Unreal away from me by massively increasing the difficulty, because I'm a filthy scrub who doesn't want to feel like they are taking a 3h organic chemistry final just to complete it? Since the new one is Savage level difficulty. It's just not fine to ask for it back? Because that's taking something away from people who already have a bunch similar difficulty content they can do. I just want to be clear one this.

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What is about you that is unable to grasp that the unreals are the original fights scaled up to current max level don't you get?

Unreals were in no way flagged as a heavy retuned fights, the issue is you and only you.

Plenty of people back in HW did this and with less guides too.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

All of those fights you mentioned could not be cleared in party finder.

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I cleared those in PF back in the day, and so did many thousands of others when they were released.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

So it's fine to take Unreal away from me by massively increasing the difficulty, because I'm a filthy scrub who doesn't want to feel like they are taking a 3h organic chemistry final just to complete it? Since the new one is Savage level difficulty. It's just not fine to ask for it back? Because that's taking something away from people who already have a bunch similar difficulty content they can do. I just want to be clear one this.

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You are still refusing to understand that Unreal is going to have variable difficulty, you just did the one that was a joke of a fight when it launched.

It's not a lack of understanding, it's entitlement. Sometimes the devs will throw a bone to a crowd that doesn't usually do a certain type of content by making an easier extreme/savage/ultimate so people can try it out and enjoy the rewards. This brings new people to the content mode who might try the more difficult bosses too. Except, sometimes it leads to someone having a meltdown and demanding all the other encounters of that type be brought down to the level of the easy boss they got a taste of.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

People truly don’t realise how much easier the game has gotten so they imagine sephirot and think “zodiark”

Trying to explain to people that current ultimate is roughly old savage just a bit longer and they lose their minds

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How would they realize it if they were never there? You're also trivializing the clears in fights for those who really did have a difficult time with them. If you don't see why they lose their minds when you mention this, then you're disconnected from the people you're trying to communicate with. When someone clears a Savage floor for the first time, one of the stupidest things you can tell that person is how much easier Savage is compared to earlier releases. And most people would see that as belittling in order to lift yourself up.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

More or less. After the massive reduction in difficulty from Creator onward, Ultimate was meant to serve as the replacement for those who enjoyed that level of difficulty while Savage moved closer to midcore levels.

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I don't recall the devs stating any of this. From what I recall, the problems began with Gordias, continued into Midas, and started getting better with Creator. There was a lot of trial and error back then, and current content, even Ultimate will never have the kind of difficulty associated with the inexperience between dev and playerbase that AS had. Regardless with how you feel about savage, the majority of the playerbase is incapable of clearing that content. If you disagree, start up a PUG in PF and see for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I don't recall the devs stating any of this. From what I recall, the problems began with Gordias, continued into Midas, and started getting better with Creator. There was a lot of trial and error back then, and current content, even Ultimate will never have the kind of difficulty associated with the inexperience between dev and playerbase that AS had. Regardless with how you feel about savage, the majority of the playerbase is incapable of clearing that content. If you disagree, start up a PUG in PF and see for yourself.

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The ultimates were brought in as a replacement for harder type savage content as the savage content from midas got easier, the devs did state this.

They couldn't tune savages higher but instead brought in another type of content that allowed for it.

Also I honestly think the issue wasn't how hard gordias and midas were, it was that Coil at the time had a much smaller but in my opinion skilled playerbase did it.

When HW released, the devs made a bigger deal for people to do Alexander raids, which meant more people did it that simply did not expect to be hit so hard with savage type content, the devs did a bad job to say to players they need to get better before doing them.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

More or less. After the massive reduction in difficulty from Creator onward, Ultimate was meant to serve as the replacement for those who enjoyed that level of difficulty while Savage moved closer to midcore levels. Which is a bit ironic considering the OP has professed several times how they want midcore content yet fail to realize the EXs and early floors of Savage are considered midcore.

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the devs admitted that tuning Gordias and Midas so that minimum item level clears were impossible was a mistake.