More unneccesary nerfs to older content

Speaking frankly, since the system already allows for groups with a variety of interests (e.g. unsynced to kill quickly for WT or glam, min ilvl synced to make it as tough as the "original" fight, etc.), people could always just use PF to make groups where the players themselves simply agree not to rez anyone who falls off the platform...

I thought falling off permadeath was just part of the mechanics to make it different from normal mode.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Speaking frankly, since the system already allows for groups with a variety of interests (e.g. unsynced to kill quickly for WT or glam, min ilvl synced to make it as tough as the "original" fight, etc.), people could always just use PF to make groups where the players themselves simply agree not to rez anyone who falls off the platform...

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Whilst community-generated content is a good thing in many cases. In this, it isn't. Personally, I don't agree with perma-death regardless of the circumstance, but people don't want to feel like they need to create that difficulty themselves, versus something that should natively be embedded within the games difficulty.

Im kinda whatever on this whole thing.
But I do see both sides. The Perma-Death 'mechanic' is a good incentive to pay attention and learn otherwise my punishment is Im out of the fight.
On the other hand, Bad Ping & Latency can screw you over and then its just not fair yo miss out and have to sit there and wait for X amount of time and not be able to play.

I do think it sucks a tiny bit that the Consequence of failure is being removed..but I also agree that being able to get back into the fight is more appealing.

Of all the dumbing-down to get up in arms over, dungeon and old trial nerfs are not it. Permadeath mechanics are really dumb and shouldn't have been in the game to begin with.

Rather than deleting the perma-death, I'd rather them giving a similar mechanic like in Typhon & Ultros duo trial. I think that's a decent middle ground at least.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Im kinda whatever on this whole thing.
But I do see both sides. The Perma-Death 'mechanic' is a good incentive to pay attention and learn otherwise my punishment is Im out of the fight.
On the other hand, Bad Ping & Latency can screw you over and then its just not fair yo miss out and have to sit there and wait for X amount of time and not be able to play.

I do think it sucks a tiny bit that the Consequence of failure is being removed..but I also agree that being able to get back into the fight is more appealing.

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I agree with this.

I also want to add one more thing that occurs in Titan Hard and Extreme from time to time:

One party member gets caught in gaol, melee dps or off tank get near gaol to free party member, but then Titan targets one of the melee dps/off tank with landslide. In the unfortunate event that the caught member becomes free from the gaol during most of Landslide's cast, that player won't be able to dodge the aoe or use Arm's Length/Surecast to negate the knockback because the Landslide hit already registered. So I guess that is one more reason the perma-death mechanic is getting removed aside from the usual trust AI issues.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

I agree with this.

I also want to add one more thing that occurs in Titan Hard and Extreme from time to time:

One party member gets caught in gaol, melee dps or off tank get near gaol to free party member, but then Titan targets one of the melee dps/off tank with landslide. In the unfortunate event that the caught member becomes free from the gaol during most of Landslide's cast, that player won't be able to dodge the aoe or use Arm's Length/Surecast to negate the knockback because the Landslide hit already registered. So I guess that is one more reason the perma-death mechanic is getting removed aside from the usual trust AI issues.

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I used to love breaking the gaol right before landslide went off and killed the poor trapped soul.

The change to Stone Vigil is odd since that isn’t even the problem with the dungeon. The current issue with it is the trash packs that hit 4 times harder than anything before or after it. Makes it really rough if you are doing it in Brayflox gear while leveling. Totally fine if everyone is synched down, but it is at a point where gear is relatively weak and healers/dps are missing a lot of their kit making it a nail biter as a tank even with single pulls. Tanks at least have a lot of their trash mitigation kit by that point at least but it is still rough.

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Since you're trying to smug, i'll tell you: I got stone vigil a week ago via leveling roulette, and got titan hard on roulette as well (didnt help that my healers were bad enough to get knocked out of the plattform after seeing the indicators).

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you got them in a roulette
you didn't choose to do them because you enjoyed the experience.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

you got them in a roulette
you didn't choose to do them because you enjoyed the experience.

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I love Titan (Hard) as a roulette. It is always fun to see who gets yeeted off the ledge. Always happens to someone. Best one is Dragoons and Red Mages doing it to themselves.

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

...It is always fun to see who gets yeeted off the ledge...

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I prefer to watch it with Sophia and Whorleater, where the platform rocks up and you see people slide fast at first, but then slowing down... slowly.... almost to a stop... almost... almost... nuuuuuuuuuuu! Splash.

You can tell who is ablist in this thread.

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Originally Posted by KayRadley

You can tell who is ablist in this thread.

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Think of the children.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Think of the children.

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Why? I don't have any children! :O

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

The change to Stone Vigil is odd since that isn’t even the problem with the dungeon.

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Trust AI can't do the cannon to shoot the dragon, probably. Or they changed the tornado thing?

i understand they made the changes for trust system AI , but why to extreme trials too ? does that mean we get to do extremes with trusts in the future? if so then by all means make all the changes you want because it would be awesome .

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Originally Posted by Duskane

you got them in a roulette
you didn't choose to do them because you enjoyed the experience.

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What difference does that make? Duty Roulette is a perfectly valid way of engaging with the content. The circumstances of how/why you got to any duty shouldn't dictate whether you can expect the gameplay to be reasonably engaging or have mechanics.

I hear they're making it so the slime in Toto-Rak doesn't slow you down anymore. And I'm sure a lot of people are happy about that, but for me it was never the slime that was the problem. The problem is it's a boring dungeon, and they copy-pasted the same monster for the first two "boss" encounters. You don't even have to know any mechanics for the final boss, either -- just ignore it and DPS until it dies. And that's the problem with so many of the changes that are coming to these duties -- they are making the content more boring, more generic, more easy to ignore.

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Originally Posted by lalin

i understand they made the changes for trust system AI , but why to extreme trials too ? does that mean we get to do extremes with trusts in the future? if so then by all means make all the changes you want because it would be awesome .

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I doubt it. They just adjusted it to be more in line with the current direction/course of the game regarding perma-death, and that is to say non-existent barring a few exceptions such as BA. They realized it was a tragic game design and that nobody enjoys being forced to watch someone else play the game whilst they get relegated to the sidelines. Or in the case of Titan, relegated to watching a pit of lava.

okay so... the falling not leading to perma-death has nothing to do with Trusts. If you die with Trusts it resets the entire encounter, they can't revive you.

Like above poster said, that's probably a decision they made to go in line with later decisions to not have permanent-death after falling out of arena from ShB onwards. Much like the adjustments they announced to visual markers in places like WoD... which is most likely going to be the stack marker for the Hydra... maybe the chaser comet marker for Cloud too... but there also a similar chaser mechanic in Weeping City and that wasn't specifically mentioned... so I'm thinking it might only be Hydra stack.

the changes to a lot of the ARR dungeons are most likely going to be because of Trusts... and it's mainly going to be the interaction elements. Some of this stuff could already be done with squadrons for awhile, but you had to be very specific on some fights in order to complete the interaction without being interrupted from an auto-attack. definitely not new player friendly in that regard. which accounts for the cannons in stone vigil and the slime fight in in copperbell...

some of the other stuff might be changes their making for the AI... the main difference with Trusts and Squadrons atm is that you do have some limited control over what your Squadrons actually do in battle. Graffias in Toto Rak for example, you can change their target to the tail to take it out faster so you don't get overwhelmed with puddles. So they might be making changes to that so it's easier for the Trust AI to deal with it, like maybe when the tail comes out Graffias will no longer be targetable, OR maybe there will be less eggs in the room so the AI doesn't get distracted by additional targets all over the place (as well as new eggs appearing mid fight)

my guess on the changes: the fall-death changes is to bring them in line with more modern content, the sohr kai changes are because the duty assist AI couldn't handle disappearing boss platforms, and stone vigil changes are because it's difficult to both tank the mob *and* activate the cannons for dragon, since one interrupts the other (and for a non-tank, you cant position the tank so as to not have permanent tornados blocking the cannons and making dragon un-cannon-able as well, because they dont have ally-placement commands--or commands at all since even the grand company dudes are very rudimentary on their command options and that whole content stream has apparently withered entirely--where was i going with this? right, just give them SCH/SMN's old place/heel/etc commands)

i do agree that the loss of "tutorial" fights leads to less-'literate' players overall, which leads to avoidable hardship on their end due to not knowing basic gameplay mechanics, which leads to mass complaints about apparent difficulty, which leads to further "streamlining" of gameplay mechanics...

personally, i'm neutral to the fall changes--sure i miss out on some memes, but it doesnt really affect gameplay all that much other than not punishing first-timers on titan with a permanent time-out on the fight, though i think that extremes should keep the original penalty, since it's extreme content and good execution and mechanical knowledge is kind of the whole point there.
sohr kai really hurts me, since the disappearing platforms was sort of the one gimmick of the fight (alongside the still inscrutable... whatever was going on with the light elementals)

Aside from the perma fall damage; they aren't really nerfing anything. They are trying to make the telegraphs for mechanics pretty much the same across the game. World of Darkness with the hydra dragon has the best example. A purple marker means to stack, but its a unique telegraph that no one understands and was never used in the latter expacs. Even people who finished the game don't really get it. So why not adjust to to a regular orange pointing in stack marker? Then new players can learn what that is and well.. yes they will most likely run away from the group; but people in the alliance raid will be telling them that is a STACK marker. Thus teaching the adorable sprouts how to play the game. I think that is wonderful, and they should adjust that with older content.

Dungeons such a Toto-Rak will be getting a graphic update. There might be a few others that will get it too. Who knows. However, I don't see it as a nerf; I see it as a upgrade. People start in ARR and ARR is difficult as it is with its older designs. They need to make this part of the game be the best it can be.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

A good story cannot make up for bad gameplay.

Who asked for this? This looks to be an easy way to make sure many people quit out of boredom during the free trial period.

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Know what's more boring than being able to raise people mid-fight? Lying dead for an entire duty because you got clipped because you didn't yet have a feel for how long you have to move out of the landslide, or because you got a lag spike, or omg, accidentally flip off the edge like a drg or rdm. Or is it that you derrive your fun from others having mishaps?

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

my guess on the changes: the fall-death changes is to bring them in line with more modern content, the sohr kai changes are because the duty assist AI couldn't handle disappearing boss platforms

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Duty Assist isn't even going to be in Sohr Khai anytime soon. What the change does is prevent you from falling off. It removes the need to program a complex decision algorithm on where to teleport your body to, if you were to fall off. Previously, it would be teleported outside the boss arena.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Trust AI can't do the cannon to shoot the dragon, probably. Or they changed the tornado thing?

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I’ve run vigil with squadrons plenty of times and that boss isn’t an issue. The final boss is annoying because they don’t like moving out of the circles without physically disengaging them.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Players can now be revived in battle after being incapacitated by falling in the following duties:
The Navel
Amdapor Keep
Neverreap
The Navel (Hard)
The Navel (Extreme)
The Whorleater (Extreme)
Thok ast Thok (Hard)
Thok ast Thok (Extreme)
The Limitless Blue (Hard)
The Limitless Blue (Extreme)
Containment Bay S1TZ
Containment Bay S1TZ (Extreme)

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I am actually in favor of this.
It's frustrating when new players just die on first landslide then have to sit the whole fight out.
They don't learn anything + the fight takes forever.

At this point Titan is not what it was (God it used to be such a gear check, knowledge check and a latency check at the start of 2.0... pre-dodging anyone?) so it doesn't matter anymore.

I have no issues with taking out being eliminated from fights. Landslide never taught me to get gud. Landslide only taught me to not get hit by Landslide. It's not like I stopped getting knocked off arenas in other fights after my bout with Titan. Hell, I have multiple swear jars from Titan bombs and Landslide failures. Instant KO is penalty enough, plus it tacks on an additional 5-6 seconds for your avatar to become targetable again due to being ejected.

On a side note, this change would have been much more negatively received from me if it affected mechanics like Yiazmat's Cyclone, or False Idol's 'Recreate Structure'. Mechanics like those don't just nudge you over an edge, they yeet you right TF into next week. Even if on the receiving end, it would be hilarious to be permanently ejected from those kind of attacks.

Not even sure why some people are complaining about these changes. There was no fun as a newbie trying to learn a fight blind dying and then being unable to be revived, forcing you to watch. Just brings older content in line with the rest of the game.

I... really do not see what the issue with this is. Like, it feels like an old gameplay mindset that they have decided to update to match how things have been for the last few xpacks.

On one hand, this allows for the seamless experience of going through msq without being hindered by obstacles in dgns that were already laughably easy.

On the other hand, the dgns of old are already laughably easy.

This is basically +1/-1 levels of dgn patch update.

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Originally Posted by Gember

World of Darkness with the hydra dragon has the best example. A purple marker means to stack, but its a unique telegraph that no one understands and was never used in the latter expacs. Even people who finished the game don't really get it. So why not adjust to to a regular orange pointing in stack marker? Then new players can learn what that is and well.. yes they will most likely run away from the group; but people in the alliance raid will be telling them that is a STACK marker. Thus teaching the adorable sprouts how to play the game. I think that is wonderful, and they should adjust that with older content.

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It's really funny when nobody is new and you're still running after people like that "Why are you running" meme trying to stack with them so they don't die. I've explained it in alliance chat many times when helping out sprouts and there's always a vet that pipes up "I didn't know that!" It's because nobody explained it before and it's an obtuse icon that like you said wasn't used later.