FF14 devs just keep doing your thing because my god

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Not to be rude but it's because WoW's savage is mythic. Normal is meme tier, heroic is for the casuals, and mythic is for statics.

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It's fascinating to me as an outsider seeing different people try to make comparisons, and I suspect sometimes from people who are also outsiders like me or only doing one of them and then guessing on the other. That said, I'm not making any judgment on your own comparison because I don't really know the answer myself, but I have seen different comparisons made.

From what I can tell/remember, I do believe that, in the current tier, where Savage and Normal/Heroic came out in the same week, Savage and Heroic world first took around similar length of time from their respective release. I don't know exactly what can be concluded from that except that difficulty between WoW and FFXIV may not be as simple as lining up different difficulty tiers.

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Originally Posted by linayar

It's fascinating to me as an outsider seeing different people try to make comparisons, and I suspect sometimes from people who are also outsiders like me or only doing one of them and then guessing on the other. That said, I'm not making any judgment on your own comparison because I don't really know the answer myself, but I have seen different comparisons made.

From what I can tell/remember, I do believe that, in the current tier, where Savage and Normal/Heroic came out in the same week, Savage and Heroic world first took around similar length of time from their respective release. I don't know exactly what can be concluded from that except that difficulty between WoW and FFXIV may not be as simple as lining up different difficulty tiers.

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Oh no I wasn't saying one was more difficult than the other. I was just saying that to accurately compare you have to put highest end against highest end. I wouldn't compare normal raids in 14 to LFR, for instance, as LFR is itself a totally different beast.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Honestly I believe it's more with how gaming has evolved and the impact the internet has than just addons. In the past raid bosses with 3 mechanics worked fine because we were all essentially nubs (in a nice way). Very few people read guides and information was harder to come by, you'd just stumble through, put on whatever gear you scraped together and it was plenty because everyone else was in a similar boat.

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I agree I just didn't want to dive too much in this particular part of the subject because frankly my post was already an essay without even getting in to that. Another thing to add to what you have said is very advanced boss design would have been too punishing back in the early days of WoW because it was common to disconnect or lag due to the game and player pcs not being as good at handling such a large number of things happening as well as internet connections in general not being anywhere near as powerful as they are now. Old WoW bosses were a product of their time for many reasons. I just focused mostly on the add-ons aspect as this was directly related to the question I was answering.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Even FF14's bosses, with no addons, are probably even more mechanically complex than WoW's at endgame. I've seen WoW heroic raid bosses summed up in 5-6 lines where Savage bosses are usually several pages.

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The biggest difference between WoW and FFXIV high end raiding is the size of the team. In WoW's mythic (what used to be called heroic) you have 20 people, but you only have 8 in FFXIV's savage. While the mechanics of some FFXIV bosses can be more complex sometimes, it doesn't change the fact that managing 20 people is significantly more work than managing only 8.

And this is partially why WoW high end raiders rely so heavily on add-ons. Add-ons can quite significantly reduce the complication and work load of coordinating 20 people. They can relay information better than a human ever could, and without clogging up voice chat.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

In one way it has positive sides too. I personally find bosses with a whole range of mechanics and factors to watch out for a lot more interesting than 3 mechanic target dummies. Once you've had a taste of advanced raiding and in-depth strategizing, it's hard to go back to simplistic gameplay.

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Oh man I completely understand this. I quit hardcore raiding for a number of reasons but none of them were because I grew tired of the challenge of the content. That alone is what kept me raiding in WoW for so long despite enduring a lot of other things that I grew to hate.

FFXIV has become the ideal for me. I no longer raid hardcore and can never do so again due to developing a disability (it affects the use of my hands), but you don't need to be anywhere near hardcore in FFXIV to clear a tier. My team cleared the last two Eden tiers on only four hours of raiding per week. Clearing a tier on only that in WoW would be a difficult goal to say the least because of the huge number of raid bosses per tier. WoW typically has 9 to 14 bosses per tier, FFXIV only has 4. Maybe 5 if you include ultimate if there is one in the tier.

In FFXIV I can still scratch the itch I get to experience something challenging, but without sacrificing so much time to do it and without risking putting myself in physical pain by trying to do more than my body can currently handle. In WoW I would have to accept the fact that I could never do challenging raid content again. Unsurprisingly I am so thankful for how raiding is developed in FFXIV. It's more accessible than WoW's raiding due to needing a smaller time commitment.

And as a disclaimer in case anyone looks us up in fflogs: we are very late starting this tier due to two in our team being unavailable for the start of the tier. We started savage only last week.

Hope you get well soon. I too recently have been diagnosed with a worsening Ankylosing Spondylitis and Essential Tremors on my hands that makes gaming not what it used to be. And FFXIV having a more relaxed and social feature to its game is a big plus for me.

Like you the challenge of mythic dungeons and raids in WoW is indeed satisfying but can be hard now. I am lucky to be in a bit of a chill group of raiders at the moment hence can raid a bit but I am more of a back up and I do not mind it :)

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Originally Posted by Garet

Hope you get well soon. I too recently have been diagnosed with a worsening Ankylosing Spondylitis and Essential Tremors on my hands that makes gaming not what it used to be. And FFXIV having a more relaxed and social feature to its game is a big plus for me.

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Thank you. Therapy can work for what I have but it has mixed results, and given there's a pandemic now it's not an option I can access yet. However things improved when I learned to deal with my new limitations. Figuring out the point of when something becomes too much improved things a lot for me. I'm sorry to read that you can relate to my situation, it's not something I'd wish on anyone. I'm glad that FFXIV has content that you can still enjoy despite your difficulties. During the time when the pain in my hands was at its worst I could still enjoy DoL and DoH, and furnishing my house, so I consider myself lucky to have found FFXIV when I did. It kept me sane. Had I stayed in WoW my options for what I could do at the time would have been slim at best considering combat was something I struggled with back then.

I hope your condition will also improve soon.

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Originally Posted by Garet

Like you the challenge of mythic dungeons and raids in WoW is indeed satisfying but can be hard now. I am lucky to be in a bit of a chill group of raiders at the moment hence can raid a bit but I am more of a back up and I do not mind it :)

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I'm happy that you found some good peeps who allow you to still enjoy raiding :)

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Originally Posted by Nayout

Come on, you speak as if in Wow you cannot be casual, we are talking about a game that has an absurd amount of achievements, secret achievements in the world, treasures, reputations and mounts.

For the rest, you talk about Ego as if in this game there was no go when we have people who buy kills for 1000 dollars of an Ultimate and then show the weapon to everyone and give lessons on how to be a good player like a certain clown in Excalibur.?

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Depends on what you mean by casual, if you see casual as someone who doesnt touch "hard" content and does 5 year old content then yeah, you can say WoW isnt terribad for casuals but then you can say any game that has lasted for years is a great casual game, but for people who enjoy playing a game casually as an mmorpg, like gear progression and current content and a bit of everything like myself, WoW treats casuals with absolute disdain and the community is even worse in their treatment of casuals which they see as "inferior" because all that matters to fragile egos is "video game achievements".
Gear progression has pretty much been gutted from casual content because high end raider/streamers complained they were "forced" to play the rest of the game instead of raid log, we got the last difficulty of a deep dungeon that takes 2 hours and gives nothing more than a mount to make dailies faster, 0 gear rewards or even any form of appearance, they spend a ton of effort making that entire thing but because their high end tryhards complained they didnt know what rewards to put so they put nothing.


And yeah there are always gamers TM with fragile egos that obsess over high end content in all games, the issue is WoW is heavily focusing on that type of unhealthy mentality and with their changes throughout the years has lead to a community full of obnoxious elitists, tryhards and meta slaves that dont play a game as a video game, it is almost like a job they hate but they do it because their self worth depends on it, I play an mmorpg as a video game, not something to be taken seriously, so even if I am able to do mythic raids in WoW the community is so bad I simply am not gonna touch even self proclaimed "casual mythic" guilds, and pugging has become even worse with the amount of tryhards only wanting meta combs and tanks/healers never joining your groups unless you have a huge IO score you can only get by somehow doing all dungeons at a high level, good luck pugging all those unless you enjoy spending hours waiting to form a group only to disband halfway into the dungeon.

Of course that also works for blizzard because the token price has remained low since the launch of the Xpac meaning there's a huge supply of tokens from people buying them, and I am guessing all that irl money bought gold goes directly to the hundreds of server and off server boosters that fill trade these days.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Not to be rude but it's because WoW's savage is mythic. Normal is meme tier, heroic is for the casuals, and mythic is for statics.

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Depends on when someone played WoW. Until end of MoP, Heroic was the Savage equivalent.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Depends on when someone played WoW. Until end of MoP, Heroic was the Savage equivalent.

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I'm old enough to remember when Heroic meant you needed a coordinated group and used CC to take down trash packs much less bosses.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

XIV is a MMO whether you like it or not lmao

You compared WoW and XIV in a way that implied that, in contrast to WoW, XIV is not a MMO, which is blatantly false, then that XIV is story first MMO second which is a terrible excuse people use to justify their lack of care towards how they treat other players in the game.

It is BOTH a FF game AND a theme park MMORPG, not one before the other. Saying that it's "story first" is incredibly dismissive of everything else the devs put work towards, especially battle content which is pretty extensive. The story is just some of the massive amount of CONTENT offered by the game whereas MMORPG is the genre the game falls into.

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If you wanted a serious discussion, you would not be using an alt.

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Originally Posted by Rae88

And here you reveal to everybody that you haven't played modern World of Warcraft. Modern WoW is more of a single player game than FFXIV, considering you can play the entire game solo without ever having to play with other people. At least FFXIV has compulsory dungeoning, WoW doesn't even have that. It's a single player game without a story.

Now Classic WoW was definitely a multiplayer game but modern WoW has long since abandoned those game designs.

EDIT: And you have played modern WoW then your post is just deceptive. Why is a game that you can play solo, don't have to dungeon, don't have to raid, and don't have to interact with anybody at all EVER designed as an MMO first?

Also while WoW has a more convenient transmog SYSTEM, the transmog options are severely lacking. Not only is there a lack of variety, half the options look painted on and half are very low resolution and can be jarring when mixing and matching. Transmog/Glamour is something I convincingly give to FFXIV hands down considering Blizzard obviously doesn't care about transmog options.

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I have 5 level 60's in SL, I think the one who hasn't played WoW is you. You can get 1-60 in Classic via Solo Mage Grinding or even questing solo and you can skip Raiding early on with green drops and crafting. In Modern you can 1-60 with Solo Questing, I don't see your point bruh

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Originally Posted by KenXSSS

If you wanted a serious discussion, you would not be using an alt.

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If you wanted a serious discussion, you wouldn't be dismissing other's points through ad hominems.
Give me undeniable proof that I am someone's alt or tell me what genre did SE list FFXIV as in their own online store.

Before telling anithing sorry for my bad english (i'm from catalonia and still learning it).

I'm an ex wow player i raided HC on the old times (lich) and also MM until shadowlands i don't complain about what game is more hard but i want to tell something here because i started playing ff14 2 months ago and sorry for that to the wow fanboys but is by far better than wow on ff14 the "professions" are rally polished and 0 boring compared to wow but the big difference who i love in ff is the loot rng u can farm tokens to exchange it or repeat the raid until u get the gear on wow is all time fucking rng and the thing who let me leave was doing 22 mythic dungeons and the whole hc raid to only get 1 item a lot of hours wasted to nothing.

The point here is who on ff14 u can feel rewarded for playing it meanwhile on wow no at the end u get frustated whit the stupid rng wall the dupe gear or the useless one.

This is just my opinion i'm not a pro player or a god just a normal dude who played wow from years and now saw who another mmo is by far better than wow or others mmo's outside here and if is like that on endwalker i'm really going to stay here because i'm in love whit this game.

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Originally Posted by Reijocu

and if is like that on endwalker i'm really going to stay here because i'm in love whit this game.

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We're very confident it will be like that. They never change this system in any significant way. Unlike certain other MMOs they don't change it always because it just works the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

We're very confident it will be like that. They never change this system in any significant way. Unlike certain other MMOs they don't change it always because it just works the way it is.

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To be fair, they did with Eureka, Bozja, even Ocean Fishing. I'd rather have that than 3 samy dungeons that follow the same formula. I feel like they are trying to spice it up a little.

While I'm glad to see actually positive opinions about FFXIV for a change, it's time to be a negative nancy. Shadowbringers has been quite dry of content, and I really do hope that changes. Deep dungeons were cut, dungeons per expac have been reduced, ultimates are now likely to be cut going into the future. The statement is that this is always being done to divert resources elsewhere. To whit, I must ask, what content? Bozja has been a horrendous failure, to the point that they've cut the second zone out of the plan entirely and have nothing to show for it. Ishgardian Restoration, while refreshing for some, also siphoned away resources from PVE development.

Much of this can be placed directly upon, not a failure of the project lead, but a failure of the company at large. SE permits FFXIV a very minuscule budget for a modern MMO, and it's likely growing smaller and smaller by the year as they realize people will keep subscribing even with a lesser inflow of content. Nothing in FFXIV lasts beyond a week anymore, that is where we have landed on this cycle. The class design has also taken a considerable hit, being dumbed down on all fronts. Healers, for example, have been miserable to play for the past expansion, and the differences between tanks feel superficial. Some DPS classes do feel the best they've ever been, of course, but others? Bard and Machinist, for example. They're now bereft of their former complexity, and all the worse for it. And that's unfortunate because I do particularly love this game. I've been here since ARR, and hope to see changes for the better going forward. But I have my apprehensions about that being possible, truth be told.

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Originally Posted by Rae88

For example Blizzard essentially designs raids these days assuming the playerbase is running Deadly Boss Mods, which tells players what's coming next. Players often run with something like 40 addons and when one breaks it's annoying to diagnose

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Boy, am I glad we don't have what. That's absolutely awful. Once you open that particular floodgate the arms race [never] ends.

And how can you design fights around mods you don't know everyone is even using?! lol That's insane.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Depends on what you mean by casual, if you see casual as someone who doesnt touch "hard" content and does 5 year old content then yeah, you can say WoW isnt terribad for casuals but then you can say any game that has lasted for years is a great casual game, but for people who enjoy playing a game casually as an mmorpg, like gear progression and current content and a bit of everything like myself, WoW treats casuals with absolute disdain and the community is even worse in their treatment of casuals which they see as "inferior" because all that matters to fragile egos is "video game achievements".
server and off server boosters that fill trade these day...

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Dude wat?
Boy, I am currently a damn casual in the Wow I have an ilvl of 210 and if I am lucky I do 3 mytics a week while I am in a group that does heroic 6 hours a week and we are already 7/12. All super relaxed without worrying or anything

We can complain that the loot system sucks but to say that you don't have "space" for being casual is a damn lie when it is simply looking for a group of people with similarities to your ideas. Those who most use the excuse of virtual egos are the first to be offended by what a group of people say about you and the first to feel attacked when they cannot be equipped to the same level as a person who has Mytic progress

And please, let's not use Torghast as an argument when those floors are totally optional in the same way that it is optional here to complete the 200 floors of Palace of the dead.
The real problem is that you try to aspire to more than you can and this is a problem with a LOT of people in Wow who try to do things that they cannot for time, because they are not good, etc, etc.

Find your SPACE in the game, stop looking at the rest and stop listening to every nonsense that a random tells you. My aspirations are to complete this tier in Heroic and get the mount of 15+ because it is something that I can do both for time and for my ability and I do not mind what the rest do. I say all this as Hunter BM, a spect with the lowest dps in the meta. Wow has a lot of balance problems for raids with some spects that affect community, last week on a 12+ the tank tried to make me switch to MM, I didn't pay attention to it we completed the dungeon and I was top DPS.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

I'm old enough to remember when Heroic meant you needed a coordinated group and used CC to take down trash packs much less bosses.

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The only Heroics that required CC were in BC and early in Cataclyms before all the Heroics were massively nerfed by the crying of the community when the dungeons of the trolls came out. During ALL of LK and the dungeons they introduced in Dragon Soul, no one used CC because it was a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Boy, am I glad we don't have what. That's absolutely awful. Once you open that particular floodgate the arms race [never] ends.

And how can you design fights around mods you don't know everyone is even using?! lol That's insane.

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Because if you raid in WoW, you Are using DBM. There's no way around it. If you don't, you don't raid.

When classic WoW came out I jumped on that so fast I got whiplash. Hit me right in
the nostalgia gut. And Activison Blizzard didn't want anything to do with WoW classic.

"Why would gamers want to go back to something that old? We are making new content that is better then that old stuff!"

I don't know maybe because Vanilla-BC was the best WoW EVER was. I got out during cataclysm, and I myself became a WoW refugee looking for a MMO to play. I returned to FFXI until FFXIV (1.0) came out. I was never more lost then I was when I left cataclysm, returned to FFXI, and the ultimate trash that was FFXIV 1.0. I went to RIFT, Warhammer online, EVE, LOTRO, SWTOR. I invested $1,000's to find something to fill that WoW void and give me something I could enjoy.

So I suppose what I would like to say is... Thank GOD for Yoshi P for having the courage and foresight to fix this game. When developers are in tune with their core audience they keep that audience around for years to come. Activision being completely closed off to their core audience for the last 10 years is CLEARLY showing more and more. WoW classic was a one off and I doubt will be supported fully. "You guys don't have phones?!"

WoW/Blizzard is dead to me, classic WoW is a perfect time capsule of a time in my life that reminds me of better days, and in times like this we all need that more then ever. The people that made Blizzard a development company what it was, and felt like to play a blizzard game are ALL gone. Blizzard Activision only care about money and shareholders.

If you want to see a developer that cares? Youtube Yoshi P is upset for the 2 YEARS he fought through to remake an entire game to SAVE it. He truly loves and cares about it, and fights even harder to hold back his tears of the hardship followed up by a formal bow in apology. I highly doubt you will ever see that from Blizzard/Activsion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE9G3ByXKIE

Yoshi P is treasure and should be treated as such, and the SE should have utmost faith in him to guide FFXIV so they can reap the benefits.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Because if you raid in WoW, you Are using DBM. There's no way around it. If you don't, you don't raid.

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That said, Raid Finder is available for those who don't want to use DBM.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Deep dungeons were cut, dungeons per expac have been reduced

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and replaced with fixing ARR, blue mage, ocean fishing, skysteel tools, firmament restoration, MM Extreme and more advanced features in the "eureka" content such as the Critical Engagement system, duels, a savage version of DR.

It may not be the PvE content you're used to but it's still content. I just get whatever content they give us and make the most of it. The time spent on it can be extended by getting more of the rewards and the achievements for every job.

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ultimates are now likely to be cut going into the future.

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I think this is unlikely. It seems like they can usually manage 2 per expansion and this will most likely continue in the next expansion. The second one just didn't make this expansion because of COVID-19 and this should be perfectly understandable.

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The class design has also taken a considerable hit, being dumbed down on all fronts. Healers, for example, have been miserable to play for the past expansion and the differences between tanks feel superficial. Some DPS classes do feel the best they've ever been, of course, but others? Bard and Machinist, for example.

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I don't see how anything has changed with healing from Stormblood. You used to press your one damage button and you still do that. :confused:

That's how tanks are supposed to be. They are all fundamentally tanks. Their rotations feel different though and they do have their own strengths and weaknesses. It may not matter which tank you play but they do all feel different enough.

Most people would have to say that Machinist is the best it's ever been. I don't think any significant change was made to bards in Shadowbringers, except having it not rely on Critical Hit so much?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

and replaced with fixing ARR, blue mage, ocean fishing, skysteel tools, firmament restoration, MM Extreme and more advanced features in the "eureka" content such as the Critical Engagement system, duels, a savage version of DR.

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Counting the arrangements to ARR as content seems to me to try to add nonsensical things, no one just used these arrangements because the game has never been focused on having more than 1 character.

Shadowbringers feels like an expansion of "fixing" things instead of adding things. The problem comes from an expansion where we still had two dungeons, we had 4 Eureka maps with Baldesion, we had a Deep Dungeon, we had 2 Ultimates, we had a map. in the feast.

And I don't know, but when I see that more people play this game, I intend that the content also increases and instead we continue with the "same" but distributed in different facets, they try to do pve, pvp, crafters / gathers, social, casual content ,etc.

FFXI always focuses on PVE, PSO2 focuses on both PVE and social content, Wow focuses on PVE and PVP. But here? They try to focus on everything

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Originally Posted by Reijocu

Before telling anithing sorry for my bad english (i'm from catalonia and still learning it).

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Your english isn't perfect but it is very easy to understand what you want to say and that's the main thing. Your english is very good :)

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Originally Posted by Reijocu

This is just my opinion i'm not a pro player or a god just a normal dude

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I feel that FFXIV suits a player like this better. WoW has a wealth of content if you want to approach the game with a more serious attitude, but if you don't want to or don't have the time to then FFXIV is the better choice because it has a lot of content that doesn't require pre-made groups, rushing or a strict timetable.

I feel like some of you have had terrible experiences and are super jaded because of that. I haven't played wow since early wrath but I got back into it for the shadowlands launch and enjoyed myself.

The community is nowhere near as bad as many claim it is, nor is it as uncasual friendly. I played very casually with a SO and we beat the normal raid in two weeks and we pushed up to 13 difficulty wise in mythic +.

Community wise I only got attacked twice. By a random tank in a heroic dungeon and a dps who was ignorant in normal raid. Most of the time people just don't talk, just like in 14. If you're friendly they usually reciprocate it. Just ignore trade chat since that's where most of the toxicity comes from or remove it entirely and it's never directed at you personally.

Just doing the normal raid every week gave us quite a bit of gear and conduits. Eventually we stopped and only did one mythic dungeon per week because of how lucrative the great vault system is. Just join a random person's mythic group and even if you don't time it you get a high item level piece. I could spend a lot less time doing weekly stuff than I do in FFXIV.

Their new "legendary" uses a much funner version of palace of the dead called torghast. You get a currency there weekly to buy the relic basically and inside you get orbs that actually changes how your character plays entirely. It scales difficulty depending on how many people are there so it's very easy to solo and it doesn't take a long time.

Blizzard literally stole that from 14 who ripped it from 11 and improved on it. I hope SE sees that and makes an even better one to one up them off in endwalker.

SE IMO needs an ego check and could stand to steal some systems from wow and learn how to improve some of their systems. Blizzard could also learn from SE. One thing I was very impressed by in general is the technology under the hood for skills in wow that made combat more seamless. I really wish SE could take some of that technology. Playing wow made me appreciate even more how sleek our UI is and how customizable it is.

I don't know why there's so much false information in this thread and hate. They're both just companies who want your money, not you. Neither are perfect and they both have a lot of flaws but they're also objectively both good games. Wow is not as grindy or toxic as people claim in it's current iteration. There's a lot of stuff to do for casual players like myself. 14 is nowhere near as perfect as some of you like to pretend it is.

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Originally Posted by AutumnsHollow

I don't know why there's so much false information in this thread and hate.

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I would be interested to know what information is false so I have a better understanding of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

FFXI always focuses on PVE, PSO2 focuses on both PVE and social content, Wow focuses on PVE and PVP. But here? They try to focus on everything

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I find it VERY difficult to compare FFXI to WoW. They came out around the same time (2002 and 2004) respectively. FFXI' man focus was community and MAKING players understand you need other players to progress, and it will be VERY difficult to solo this game and enjoy the story. It's a Final Fantasy after all. I would love to see players solo Promyvion content. You can't.

WoW being a revolutionary MMO that it was changed EVERYTHING. UI, Combat, PVE, PVP, Gear, Dungeons, raids, open world, like we have never seen before maybe closely resembled in Everquest that came before it. There has been many article's from the OG WoW designers that basically said we never intended the game to become what it did (referring to eventual BC expansion), and evolving into such a HUGE following of what it became at it's height in popularity. That had to be the SCARIEST thing to understand as a developer of one of the most revered game of the time. How do you live up to fan expectations and continue on?

I saw bit's of Final Fantasy story structure in Icecrown Citadel raids, and that had a SUPERB story that was locked behind raiding content. When I played that it was like I was fulfilling the story arch of Arthas and seeing the end of a GREAT character. After that I just didn't have that much invested in WoW when CAT came out. I lost my motivation to continue to play a game where I no longer cared about the lore and started to care more about my gear and gold. The journey was no longer valued and I no longer cared about the meaningless reward that followed. It became routine.

I remember the day I quit WoW and cancelled my subscription. I looked at my friends list and only 1 person was on, I stood there with nothing to do since I had done everything up to that point that I wanted to do. I felt....alone in a MMO that I cared about so much. It felt only natural to close the chapter on WoW by cancelling and moving on to make other memories, rather then hang on to something that only brought me sadness. WoW was never going to be the same, and I was right.

There will be a day when our expectations aren't met in FFXIV and it will be heart breaking for a lot of people. All we can do is keep pushing that back by BEING vocal and voicing our opinions to a dev team that actually listens! We lucky few that have an MMO to call home.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I find it VERY difficult to compare FFXI to WoW. They came out around the same time (2002 and 2004) respectively. FFXI' man focus was community and MAKING players understand you need other players to progress, and it will be VERY difficult to solo this game and enjoy the story. It's a Final Fantasy after all. I would love to see players solo Promyvion content. You can't.

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They can be compared perfectly because even though they are totally old, FFXI continues to update with PVE content to this day, even when the story ended in 2015 the game continues to update with PVE content and when they tried to do something different like PVP it was a failure tremendous.

Wow also has that focus and it is a matter of seeing the constant updates and what they focus on when developing. As for example in PSO2 some updates of the game only focused on giving more social aspects to the players, in which the players feel at home and that they can change of scene more easily with the absurd amount of cosmetics. That is why when New Genesis was announced, one of the important aspects that they announced was what would happen with cosmetics and emotes.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

The problem comes from an expansion where we still had two dungeons, we had 4 Eureka maps with Baldesion, we had a Deep Dungeon, we had 2 Ultimates, we had a map. in the feast.

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Stormblood only had 2 dungeons half the time. Shadowbringers did get a new PvP map but it remains to be seen if we'll get a second like in Stormblood.

Stormblood had Anemos, Pagos, Pyros, Hydatos and BA. Shadowbringers has MM Extreme, BSF, CLL, DR and Zadnor.

It's not entirely clear what has replaced what but it's clear how resources have been diverted into different things. At least personally, I haven't run out of Shadowbringers content to finish.

They do focus on everything though and they are redoubling on that by having more content for crafters and gatherers, and it's a good point how other MMOs might focus more on a specific area. I think that I like the game-building that comes with lending focus to all aspects of the game though.

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Originally Posted by AutumnsHollow

I feel like some of you have had terrible experiences and are super jaded because of that. . . .

I don't know why there's so much false information in this thread and hate.

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It is very popular to hate on WoW here. While I don't spend much time with WoW's social stuff I've also seen it seems popular to use FFXIV to either dunk on the devs for messing something up or use FFXIV to be that 'weeabo, awful game'.

So honestly.. seems balanced in the end lol. But I find it really unfortunate, people will jump on the train to parade and exacerbate their hate even if they would under any other circumstance be fine with an idea or suggestion. WoW could learn a lot from FFXIV, and FFXIV from WoW, and not just in what they do well but things that didn't work out and why as well (they can act as each other's third party research lol) - and they don't need to shift entirely to the same target audience if they wanted to specialize their audience target (there is a huge overlap of audience potential but near the end part of gameplay there is clearly a bit of a focus in each mmo, one having a lot more progression friendly mechanics and content in that sphere, and the other more into supporting the 'raid' scene - although even in that they both have some overlap).

Sometimes it really does feel like sports or religion in here (or there, of what I've seen shortly), when it comes to talking about WoW. Very few people care if you reference TESO, GW2, Rift, Wildstar, or whatever. Naturally like the above subjects there is different saying "that team or religion isn't for me, but I can see past that and also tell that not every idea that comes from that origin is also 'not for me'" and then there is prostrations you see mix in with that, so one has to be careful lumping everyone together (talking bad about WoW doesn't necessarily say you're a blind white knight fan boy), but I've seen quite a few situations where it's clearly just fan hate / fan love which doesn't help anything besides look bad.

But hey- if you want to farm karma just talk bad about WoW in context of FFXIV lol. People love hearing how they've made the right choice and others made the wrong choice :p.

On the bright side though- Yoshida has spoke well of WoW and Blizzard a few times and from reading his perspective on the game story direction (things take balance) and long ago in ARR development I'm decently confident to think that Yoshida doesn't simply look at WoW and think "nothing good comes from that game, nothing to learn here". So at least the some of the people that matter for design are keeping aware.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Stormblood only had 2 dungeons half the time. Shadowbringers did get a new PvP map but it remains to be seen if we'll get a second like in Stormblood.

Stormblood had Anemos, Pagos, Pyros, Hydatos and BA. Shadowbringers has MM Extreme, BSF, CLL, DR and Zadnor.

It's not entirely clear what has replaced what but it's clear how resources have been diverted into different things. At least personally, I haven't run out of Shadowbringers content to finish.

They do focus on everything though and they are redoubling on that by having more content for crafters and gatherers, and it's a good point how other MMOs might focus more on a specific area. I think that I like the game-building that comes with lending focus to all aspects of the game though.

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I'm not talking about Frontline, I'm talking about The Feast where the Crystal Tower map was introduced

The problem with Bozja is that it has come to replace both Deep Dungeon and 4 Eureka maps with a system that is tremendously lazy, Eureka had its own ecosystem where the climates affected the environment, where it had to work with a system to Summon enemies each one with their own system to Summon and with their own times, for which they worked with their own people to make this possible.

In the end, an entire ecosystem was changed for a map that ends up becoming monotonous where people only speak to ask for a party when entering a combat where they simply spawn successions of fates and battles. I do not consider that Shadow has less content than the rest of the expansions, the problem comes that the content is divided into many things and the feeling of little content while part of the new content is a raid of 48 (savage) people that seems an experiment Failed as the Diadem (who would do a 48 person savage raid when this game's pve scene is so small?) This is intensified when an Ultimate is eliminated, two events are combined into one to give worse things than the two together, we still have two incomplete races, etc.

We all wish they could focus on all kinds of content but unfortunately the FFXIV team cannot do it because SE and this is where all the problems are generated.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

The problem with Bozja is that it has come to replace both Deep Dungeon and 4 Eureka maps with a system that is tremendously lazy

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I suppose that's true. I was fine with Eureka but obviously most people weren't, so it seems most people wanted it to be casual and lazy.

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We all wish they could focus on all kinds of content but unfortunately the FFXIV team cannot do it because SE and this is where all the problems are generated.

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I see it suggested often that FFXIV is underfunded, but I don't know where the citation for this is. The credits got so long in Stormblood that it looked like they had been spending a lot of money on hiring and outsourcing.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

They can be compared perfectly because even though they are totally old, FFXI continues to update with PVE content to this day, even when the story ended in 2015 the game continues to update with PVE content and when they tried to do something different like PVP it was a failure tremendous.

Wow also has that focus and it is a matter of seeing the constant updates and what they focus on when developing. As for example in PSO2 some updates of the game only focused on giving more social aspects to the players, in which the players feel at home and that they can change of scene more easily with the absurd amount of cosmetics. That is why when New Genesis was announced, one of the important aspects that they announced was what would happen with cosmetics and emotes.

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Your comparing apples to oranges. Allow me to use this analogy.
WoW has a skin that I can eat and may be a little chewy. very sweet inside and satisfying. Instantly available off the shelf for enjoyment.
FFXI has a skin that must be removed as it tastes terrible. I must peel that away to see the what lies inside. Given the time and work put in I will enjoy myself.

WoW was SOOO user friendly that it didn't have to explain hardly anything. You were off to the races and everything was laid out slowly and controlled linearity at first until giving you the world. Really good game design and a detailed manual.
FFXI was the opposite of user friendly and you quite literally had to fight with it to update, talk to others for advice, learn where to grind, the enigma of crafting, the sub systems that are BARELY explained. BUTTTTT when you understood all of that you quite literally became a walking encyclopedia of knowledge for others. The community was shaped by the players in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Your comparing apples to oranges. Allow me to use this analogy.
WoW has a skin that I can eat and may be a little chewy. very sweet inside and satisfying. Instantly available off the shelf for enjoyment.
FFXI has a skin that must be removed as it tastes terrible. I must peel that away to see the what lies inside. Given the time and work put in I will enjoy myself.

WoW was SOOO user friendly that it didn't have to explain hardly anything. You were off to the races and everything was laid out slowly and controlled linearity at first until giving you the world. Really good game design and a detailed manual.
FFXI was the opposite of user friendly and you quite literally had to fight with it to update, talk to others for advice, learn where to grind, the enigma of crafting, the sub systems that are BARELY explained. BUTTTTT when you understood all of that you quite literally became a walking encyclopedia of knowledge for others. The community was shaped by the players in FFXI.

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The thing that made FFXI great for many of its players was how alive Vanadiel was. It was a dynamic living world and that made it unique among MMOs for the longest time. Every action you took as a player had a real impact and changed the game world in some way. It's ironic really that for a game made 20 years ago Vanadiel was a living breathing world and despite newer technology advancements Eorzea is lifeless and dead.

Vanadiel had so many systems in place that shaped the game world. Every monster you killed had some impact on the balance of power in that region. Every defeat you suffered also tipped the balance.. NPCs and vendors would change stocks and prices based on that balance of power. Your travel options would also be influenced, if your naton didn't hold the outpost you couldnt teleport home from that region.

Vanadiel had dynamic zones with various puzzles to. The Sacrarium library had a maze that had a different path through every game day. The Eldieme Necroplois had its various gates you had to juggle the switches for depending on which part of it you actually wanted to get to.. You had the Toramei Canals with the 3 mage gate to open (unless you were famous in windurst and had the moon orb) You had the Quicksand Caves with its weigthed puzzles.1 galka can open a door 2 humes or 3 taru.. So many little things that made places more inteesting and bought them to life.

Vanadiel also had a much more varied set of enviroments. Open zones, underground zones, mines, castles, defkaults tower, indoor zones even inside a giant tree. Zones fellt different in comparison to 14 where every zone in eorzea is just a bland big open dead space and lifeless.

Vanadiel was also much more populated by players. Eorzea everything is locked off behind instances. So you never see people in the world unless there whacking the same gathering node as you. You dont randomly run past a group of people fighting a boss or anything like that. Unless you count fates but most of the time they're dead and completely ignored anyway and just another thing that doesnt matter..

Fates have no impact or consequence on the world at all which makes them boring and lifeless but again Vanadiel had things that did impact the world. Beseiged, Campaign battles,and I forget the other ones. Things where the outcomes did change the game world.. If you lost at besiged the candescance was stolen and you couldn't teleport. Various NPCs were kidnapped and you had to go rescue them..

The biggest thing really is that in FFXI Vanadiel was quite literally front and centre of everything, Your player was just one inhabitant amoung many. The world wouldnt give way to you. you had to give way to the world. Right down to having to wait for a ferry or airship. all of which bought the game world to life.

In Eorzea and most MMOs of late the player is front and centre and that makes the game worlds dead and lifeless.. If something hapens to eorzea it happens in an instance where it has no effect on the world or anyone else at all.. You are the warrior of light and the 3, 7 or 23 other people you play with are all nobodies...

This is one of the issues with XIV I think. its so focussed on YOU that its essetially a single player experience the people you play with don't matter. and this is where people get bored of it and drop the game because theres no meaningful interactions.. You queue up for content in the duty finder get paired up with random people. if you're lucky you might get a o/ or hi at the statt of the instance and maybe even a gg or tyfp at the end. and thats it. everyone goes there own seperate ways and you never see them again or wouldnt recognise there names if you did. then you go and queue the next duty finder thing and do the same again...

XIV as a game does a great job at pulling fresh new players in... but honestly does a terrible job at keeping them engaged or interested for long.. more and more players getting tired of the same old repetitive boring treadmill and the only thing that keeps them engaged are social connections..

I once said FFXIV is like a cheap restaurant or bar. The food is terrible, the place is a dump and the beer is warm. but if your there with a good group of friends yo ucan still have a good time. (friends being the reason I still play)

I honestly think FFXIV would have been a much better game if they did continue to do there own thing andnot just go the WOW route with everything.. including progression. stuff felt powerful and worth pursuing in XI for example but in XIV everything is just junk you'll throw away tomorrow. which is why so many people don't invest in gear because everything is junk. which makes the game feel less rewarding which when paired with the lack of social connections seems to be a big reason for players dropping it.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Your comparing apples to oranges. Allow me to use this analogy.
WoW has a skin that I can eat and may be a little chewy. very sweet inside and satisfying. Instantly available off the shelf for enjoyment.
FFXI has a skin that must be removed as it tastes terrible. I must peel that away to see the what lies inside. Given the time and work put in I will enjoy myself.

WoW was SOOO user friendly that it didn't have to explain hardly anything. You were off to the races and everything was laid out slowly and controlled linearity at first until giving you the world. Really good game design and a detailed manual.
FFXI was the opposite of user friendly and you quite literally had to fight with it to update, talk to others for advice, learn where to grind, the enigma of crafting, the sub systems that are BARELY explained. BUTTTTT when you understood all of that you quite literally became a walking encyclopedia of knowledge for others. The community was shaped by the players in FFXI.

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But it is that I am comparing the approaches of the games, FFXI always points to the PVE with its patches and only to this to give more content to its players, Wow has always offered PVE content but also focused on a PVP keeping these two things alive that's what I mean.

What they aim for with their updates and patches.

And not to mention, the world of FFXIV is not dead at all, what happens is that it is alive in a VERY different way than that of FFXI, the MSQ and that many of the content you require to go to the area makes you always meet people and It is something that many people who enter this game for the first time emphasize, the problem is that for high level players the game map is absolute rubbish, the FFXIV maps are beautiful and have a variety of environments but it is that removing the Hunts that have different ways of being summoned, it has NOTHING, I compare the map of FFXIV with that of TESO or that of Wow and that is that this game has the decoration map for the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

The real problem is that you try to aspire to more than you can

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Ah yes the "casuals are bad so they dont deserve good gear" mentality, yeah EVERYONE should have a way to get decent gear, and by that I dont mean a single piece a week that is completely RNG dependent on their casino gear system which of course doesnt get affected by any form of casual or solo content.

I was pugging 14s on my affl lock at the start of January and had pugged full heroic, thing is affl lock was seen as "meta" at the time so changed to assa rogue, bought fill 200 covenant set and mythic boes and was 205 first week after I was done, guess what, the only way to do m+ at then was to buy boosts, why? If you didnt have 1.2k IO good luck getting into groups, and you should know even 1kIO requires all dungeons to be done and above 10, so good luck getting a non meta class get into those no matter how good you are.

Of course you might be happy to wait for hours to do a +5 and have a ton of groups disband midway and quite literally spend months to only reach the +11 wall where people require 1.2k io for 12+ these days which you arent gonna get without boosts or a static team within guilds.

So please dont confuse casual with one's ability and imply "they aspire more than they can"

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Originally Posted by Nayout

to say that you don't have "space" for being casual is a damn lie

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Gear progression completely gutted for casuals who are stuck near 200ilvl unless they force themselves to play with obnoxious elitists and metaslaves, the "you must be trolling to play non meta spec" type, challenging solo content exists yet rewards have been stripped from it because tryhards complained, their "casual" rewards include a huge anima grind for silly upgrades and mogs that dont give any power and take MONTHS to upgrade fully.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

And please, let's not use Torghast as an argument when those floors are totally optional in the same way that it is optional here to complete the 200 floors of Palace of the dead.

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That was never the point, the point was that challenging solo content exists yet the devs because they pander to high end removed rewards because god forbid the elitists are forced to play the "dirty casual content, they got no time for that", this was admitted when they said in alpha that "they dont want to repeat horrific visions" when it comes to gear.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

last week on a 12+ the tank tried to make me switch to MM, I didn't pay attention to it we completed the dungeon and I was top DPS.

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Great proof of how full of metaslaves even low end community has become, it doesnt matter if you are decent or if they arent that skilled, they ll still push you to become a metaslave, thank god SE has rules against compelling playstyles on others because that attitude has run rampart within the entire WoW community.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Personally I hate role quest and find them as cheap replacements for job quest. You might be able to justify them in Shadowbringers but stripping them from Endwalker seems like a case of cheap penny pinching and slowly killing RPG elements of the MMO.

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Maybe they're not so good for "job identity" but I actually like the handling of the role quests at a larger story scale - we've never had any sort of connection between the various job quests, but the roles have their capstone quest and join up to other elements of the story. It's a lot more viable to do that with one plot thread per role than with all the unique jobs.

Not everything has to connect up like that, of course, but it hasn't just been a case of "less quests = bad".

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Or my "first page" had stuff from like 2016, even though my sort was standard and there was 2019 stuff too.

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That was probably the point where that troll was bumping all the old threads and the mods weren't stopping it.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I just think the jobs need more flare, when possible (not harming balance).

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BLM has flare. (You're looking for flair though.)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I understand what you're trying to get it, but it's only sort of true and I don't think it hurts anyone if a dragoon could jump higher or take less fall damage simply to better give that job identity. Nor is it out of place concept in the game, given ninja passive or bard music.

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Less fall damage would be fine, maybe, but higher jumping means that zones have to be built with that in consideration so they can't get to places they're not supposed to.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That was probably the point where that troll was bumping all the old threads and the mods weren't stopping it.

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Nah, the last posts were also old. The whole front page was just like. . . "what??". This was before the reign of Titans. Although it could have related to some other silly addon I've on, I've a few monkey scripts for this. Sssssssssssssssssoooooooooo some issues might be my fault in a more complicated way.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

BLM has flare. (You're looking for flair though.)

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No I mean flare!!!!! ...... no I dont >.<

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Less fall damage would be fine, maybe, but higher jumping means that zones have to be built with that in consideration so they can't get to places they're not supposed to.

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I've actually accounted for that in the other ideas I posted on the topic about it (it's not like this is the first time I've suggested I feel FFXIV doesn't give jobs enough flair)- saying that the ability can take in account if you've unlocked flight or not. In this way you don't break yourself or the zone.

Not sure why maybe on less fall damage though, Ninja already has it lol. And those are just the most obvious generic ideas- I strongly believe they could go further.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Because if you raid in WoW, you Are using DBM. There's no way around it. If you don't, you don't raid.

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Did you ever stop to think how DBM knows what to display? It's because information on mechanics gets collected by players who are raiding without it and that information then gets used to set up the DBM timers, etc.

You can absolutely raid in WoW without using DBM. It does take using your brain. You will progress slower at first than those who have it but you can raid in WoW without it just as most players here raid without it.

The reason most groups require DBM to be installed is because most people are brain dead and can't think. I knew plenty of players who would install DBM to satisfy those who scan for it then would leave all the indicators disabled.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The reason most groups require DBM to be installed is because most people are brain dead and can't think. I knew plenty of players who would install DBM to satisfy those who scan for it then would leave all the indicators disabled.

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Show me your video doing Ashara Heroic much less Mythic without DBM that has 47 separate mechanics. You might be able to brain dead some fights but on a lot of them Blizzard assumes you know the timers hence the 1 shot mechanics with no indication from the bosses.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Did you ever stop to think how DBM knows what to display? It's because information on mechanics gets collected by players who are raiding without it and that information then gets used to set up the DBM timers, etc.

You can absolutely raid in WoW without using DBM. It does take using your brain. You will progress slower at first than those who have it but you can raid in WoW without it just as most players here raid without it.

The reason most groups require DBM to be installed is because most people are brain dead and can't think. I knew plenty of players who would install DBM to satisfy those who scan for it then would leave all the indicators disabled.

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I had to use bigwigs(Alternative to DBM) simply because it was a lot easier to disable the ridiculous extra warnings that actually make things worse than actually help imo, the main use I have from these addons is that timer window which shows upcoming timers.

But you are right, the mechanics are shown very clearly without any addons and you dont need any additional assistance for them but these addons have been forced onto everyone due to the community along many others.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

I had to use bigwigs(Alternative to DBM) simply because it was a lot easier to disable the ridiculous extra warnings that actually make things worse than actually help imo, the main use I have from these addons is that timer window which shows upcoming timers.

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Oh man when I found bigwigs I never looked back. It was a much nicer add-on that I found to be less obstructive.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

But you are right, the mechanics are shown very clearly without any addons and you dont need any additional assistance for them but these addons have been forced onto everyone due to the community along many others.

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A lot of raid teams demand that you use boss mods to further reduce the likelihood of error. Yes WoW has in-game warnings about mechanics that will happen or a debuff on your character, but if you also have an add-on informing you of a mechanic before it even happens or get a massive skull on your head with a huge raid warning blasting the centre of your screen when you're debuffed then it becomes really hard to miss something when it happens, which means less mishaps.

The thing is if something will make a fight easier, players are going to use it regardless of how abundantly clear the game is about mechanics. The reason why we can no longer change field marks mid-combat in FFXIV is because some raiders found a way to get an add-on to automatically mark safe spots on the ground which of course trivialised some mechanics. Unsurprisingly SE were not happy about this. They couldn't do anything about the add-on itself so they removed the in-game utility that the add-on used to do its job. A classic case of "this is why we can't have nice things".