FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

Whoever said it was made for a hardcore player?
Most of the player base isn't hardcore.
They would loss 90% of there sub if the MSQ could only be cleared by the 1% till it was nerfed.

Oh..this is still going on. Oh... Okay.

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Originally Posted by SeanCody

omg i didnt know only 200 people have ever cleared all 3 ultimates and they all know each other uguuuuu

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https://media.tenor.com/images/bb37d...63de/tenor.gif

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Originally Posted by SeanCody

Oh..this is still going on. Oh... Okay.

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It's one of your more successful threads lol

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

And if they do so they're being the toxic ones, wasting other people's time.

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It depends on the advice and how it was presented and rejected. And time is not guaranteed for anything, so that alone does not make one toxic necessarily.

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Originally Posted by linayar

It depends on the advice and how it was presented and rejected. And time is not guaranteed for anything, so that alone does not make one toxic necessarily.

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Good advice can be presented curtly and it can still be good advice which should be considered and taken if it helps you improve. The only advice I could justify dismissing out of hand would be that which I know to be false or something presented alongside a literal, direct insult. If neither of those things is true then no, how its presented doesn't matter.

Yes, wasting other people's time needlessly is toxic. Nothing you say will make it otherwise.

Three elitists walk into a bar... In fact, this is not about the player's skills and not about selfishness. It's about how different comfort zones and playstyles can be.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Actually, yes.

You give your example of being fine with a zero dps healer in a dungeon. I'm not. I will give advice and if it isn't taken I'll weigh my options there, either kicking or leaving if the bad in question continues to be a bad.

People set their own standards. If you'd like yours to literally just be completing an instance within the time limit, enrage or otherwise, that's totally up to you... but it doesn't mean that other people must, or even should, agree with you.

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If your head is only wanting to kick a healer in a DUNGEON for not dpsing....you are the problem with this game. You expect everyone to play as you do, to which i say find your own group and stop being a schmuck

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Three elitists walk into a bar... In fact, this is not about the player's skills and not about selfishness. It's about how different comfort zones and playstyles can be.

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My comfort zone is next to the tank picking their pocket.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

If your head is only wanting to kick a healer in a DUNGEON for not dpsing....you are the problem with this game. You expect everyone to play as you do, to which i say find your own group and stop being a schmuck

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People with weak arguments often resort to ad homs

Stay mad lul

(Just do it while dpsing, or boot)

The troll really had some good bait with this one, didn't they? Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

The troll really had some good bait with this one, didn't they? Jesus.

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Its a sensative topic bait or not. Both sides have their shares of wrongs and rights they just keep pushing the other sides buttons.

Next time you make a post like this, use a bit of originality. Kthx

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

This community is hopeless

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Nah that goes to the wow community. This one's a runner up.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

If your head is only wanting to kick a healer in a DUNGEON for not dpsing....you are the problem with this game. You expect everyone to play as you do, to which i say find your own group and stop being a schmuck

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Stop being bad. The 1-30 CONJURER quest line is literally about telling a person to stop being a useless healbot and to DPS. If all you want to do is heal literally find a different game to play, you are actively wasting people's time by doing nothing but spamming Cure I and Medica II (Or Benefic and Helios / Physic and Succor etc.) and that makes YOU the a-hole, not the rest of your party.

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Originally Posted by SeanCody

did you know you are replying to someone in the high-end raiding community? show some respect they probably cleared all 3 ultimates which means their genes are really really good

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I have to say your posts lately have been kinda entertaining to read, good job lol.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Good advice can be presented curtly and it can still be good advice which should be considered and taken if it helps you improve. The only advice I could justify dismissing out of hand would be that which I know to be false or something presented alongside a literal, direct insult. If neither of those things is true then no, how its presented doesn't matter.

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So presentation does matter.

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Yes, wasting other people's time needlessly is toxic. Nothing you say will make it otherwise.

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Nothing I say may change your mind, but I don't need to. In the end, every group will decide how a run goes, and considering I've seen many slower runs where there were no issues among the group, that's enough to tell me it's not inherently toxic to be slow.

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Originally Posted by linayar

So presentation does matter.

Nothing I say may change your mind, but I don't need to. In the end, every group will decide how a run goes, and considering I've seen many slower runs where there were no issues among the group, that's enough to tell me it's not inherently toxic to be slow.

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Yeah, I'm sure a full group of people who have no idea what they're doing might not be able to tell how bad things are going. You can stick toddlers in front of calculus and they'll draw on the paper with crayons rather than do the math.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Yeah, I'm sure a full group of people who have no idea what they're doing might not be able to tell how bad things are going. You can stick toddlers in front of calculus and they'll draw on the paper with crayons rather than do the math.

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So, you're comparing people who can still clear content, just not as fast as you want it to be, to toddlers who can't do math (calculus even) and will draw on the paper instead.

I don't know if you're trying to be insulting but missing the mark because you're trying to not get into trouble or something, but it's just weird to see this kind of comparison being made. Then again, toddlers who will draw instead of do math are not toxic either, so it works either way for my point.

I understand this, I'm just tired of them constantly dumbing the game down. The game has always debateably been incredibly easy even in savage content, but since the start of shadowbringers they just feel the need to dumb it down even further to the point where a monkey could play the jobs and it's kind of annoying.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I understand this, I'm just tired of them constantly dumbing the game down. The game has always debateably been incredibly easy even in savage content, but since the start of shadowbringers they just feel the need to dumb it down even further to the point where a monkey could play the jobs and it's kind of annoying.

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I feel like there's something wrong with your mindset when you're comparing the skill level of a player to a monkey (or a toddler). It's arguably said in jest, though depending on the mood of the speaker, one can never be sure.

Do you feel like it helps making your point come through rather than hinder it? Because it seems like you're just setting up strawman for the other side to attack, which won't help your case.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I understand this, I'm just tired of them constantly dumbing the game down. The game has always debateably been incredibly easy even in savage content, but since the start of shadowbringers they just feel the need to dumb it down even further to the point where a monkey could play the jobs and it's kind of annoying.

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It's not very nice to describe more casual players as "monkeys". And I am sure that there are still optional challenges you can pursue, like the Ultimate fights.

I did not read this whole thread , but I have to disagree with the headline "Is not made for hardcore players".
Looking at how the game is designed right now, even with how Shadowbringers has made many things easier than Stormblood, I'd generally say this game is for everyone who wants to play it.
There is many things to enjoy for all kinds of playstyles, be it more casual in roulettes, hunts or such things, as well as savage and ultimate raids for the higher ends. You are not forced to do any of it and can leisurely go about your day without missing anything, or sink hours into grinding/farming/raiding, if so you choose. In this regard, this game makes itself openly accesible to many groups of players.
I agree with the design choice of making things easy to be picked up - and thus being accessible - as well as there being a skill ceiling that you can strive for, if you want to.
Generally it is always a good idea to play to your best capabilities if you are more casual, as well as not putting Ultimate expectations into a group if you are more hardcore.
The general problem - as in many things these days - is many, many people just being too overly focused on what they themselves want, in complete disregard that there is a couple more people that have to deal with it. And the lack of understand for others will inevitably cause shouting at each other, and trolls being fed outside their feeding time at 13:37 o'clock

Just to be sure,
Hardcore players are those who clean Ultimates within a week of their release
Or those who are able to press GCD every 2.5 seconds with some occasional OGCDs here and there?

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I understand this, I'm just tired of them constantly dumbing the game down. The game has always debateably been incredibly easy even in savage content,

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I mean people were complaining that savage
fights didn't have enough mechanics and yoshi p delivered and players are still whining about it. Would you like him to add double or triple the mechanics in a savage fight? The fight would be much longer, but it wouldn't be boring.

Reading the headline made me laugh. All I read was "I don't like how the game is so I will complain about it".

Its basically suck it up. More then just you play the game. Want the experience you look for go play dark souls

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I understand this, I'm just tired of them constantly dumbing the game down. The game has always debateably been incredibly easy even in savage content, but since the start of shadowbringers they just feel the need to dumb it down even further to the point where a monkey could play the jobs and it's kind of annoying.

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I have mentioned this in other threads but I'll say it again here...

I think FFXIV's issue is being extremely unintuitive. Some rotations are long only for the sake of being long vs being fun. Some boss encounters are mechanically dense but don't allow much room for in the moment counter-play and only really allow pattern memorization.

UIs need to be set up by players and some may be better at that than others.

Controller players sometimes need to look up guides not just for good crossbar layouts but for how to target.

With some unintuitive design and encounters that seem to be more pattern than anything we end up with a game that has a fairly normal skill ceiling but a very high skill floor.

Are you good at recognizing and memorizing patterns? Have you done this encounter before? Is your UI good? You will be probably be fine.

Are you using the default UI? Is this your first time doing the encounter or are you not so good at patterns and better at counter play? You may struggle.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

"I don't like how the game is so I will complain about it"

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That's actually how a lot people feel right now. I keep seeing posts about

"Healing is awful right now"

Or

"Fix X's dps"

Or

"X's is too squishy"

Or

"This game is too casual Friendly" (Yoshi p wanted the game to be for casual players)

9 times out of 10 those people are just complaining for the sake of complaining. If you don't like the state of the game then go play a different game or play another job. Because it seems like a lot of people don't know how to adapt to change, and instead of adapting all I see is complaining. Deal with it or play something else, simple as that.

chill lad , its no use getting angry about the forums just sit back and watch the show.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I have mentioned this in other threads but I'll say it again here...

I think FFXIV's issue is being extremely unintuitive. Some rotations are long only for the sake of being long vs being fun. Some boss encounters are mechanically dense but don't allow much room for in the moment counter-play and only really allow pattern memorization.

UIs need to be set up by players and some may be better at that than others.

Controller players sometimes need to look up guides not just for good crossbar layouts but for how to target.

With some unintuitive design and encounters that seem to be more pattern than anything we end up with a game that has a fairly normal skill ceiling but a very high skill floor.

Are you good at recognizing and memorizing patterns? Have you done this encounter before? Is your UI good? You will be probably be fine.

Are you using the default UI? Is this your first time doing the encounter or are you not so good at patterns and better at counter play? You may struggle.

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I would disagree with job rotations being "extremely" unintuitive. I think if people would read the tooltips and not be in a rush to just start battling, most would be able to figure out a decent rotation. Long rotation doesn't mean unintuitive, and fun is subjective and does not necessarily correlate with the length of the rotation. After all, if the fight is long enough, hitting 11111 and hitting 12345 are the same number of presses.

That said, I'm always in favor of less unique buttons, not for intuition's sake, but for convenience's sake, but not make the buttons change too much in midfight like in PVP.

Pattern is also a simple way to make people learn about a fight. The problem isn't the pattern, it's that you sometimes need to read the tooltips for buffs and debuffs or NPC/enemy text to understand what the mechanic is or what to do unless you already have someone who knows and can tell you. So, here, I would say it can be unintuitive if you don't read all the information about the fight.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I would disagree with job rotations being "extremely" unintuitive. I think if people would read the tooltips and not be in a rush to just start battling, most would be able to figure out a decent rotation. Long rotation doesn't mean unintuitive, and fun is subjective and does not necessarily correlate with the length of the rotation. After all, if the fight is long enough, hitting 11111 and hitting 12345 are the same number of presses.

That said, I'm always in favor of less unique buttons, not for intuition's sake, but for convenience's sake, but not make the buttons change too much in midfight like in PVP.

Pattern is also a simple way to make people learn about a fight. The problem isn't the pattern, it's that you sometimes need to read the tooltips for buffs and debuffs or NPC/enemy text to understand what the mechanic is or what to do unless you already have someone who knows and can tell you. So, here, I would say it can be unintuitive if you don't read all the information about the fight.

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Buttons need to be trimmed down in this game by at least a lot. A good place to start is consolidating buttons that have no business being separate because they're already mutually exclusive abilities (for example Blizzard IV/Fire IV on BLM or Summon/Enkindle on SMN)

And I maintain that patterns are overused in FFXIV. If you know the fight well it feels easy but if you don't it's frustrating. It's probably not something I'm doing a good job explaining. I guess maybe it's that FFXIV pve is more proactive (know where to be) while, say, WoW is more reactive (respond to the unexpected and get yourself back into the fight). Obviously there are reactive mechanics in FFXIV and proactive ones in WoW but in general they each lean heavily on proactive pattern recognition and reactive chaos.

I personally prefer pve in WoW, it seems more accessible and definitely has a lower skill floor but a waaay higher ceiling with the people at the top being part of a world wide esport. That said, FFXIV's rotations in WoW would make WoW impossible. I'm imagining doing the summoner rotation on heroic Jaina and it's making my eyes cross.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Buttons need to be trimmed down in this game by at least a lot. A good place to start is consolidating buttons that have no business being separate because they're already mutually exclusive abilities (for example Blizzard IV/Fire IV on BLM or Summon/Enkindle on SMN)

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Agreed only if they're not commonly used. For the typical 1-2-3 combo, I would hate to be on the same button because it's clearer for me if they're on separate buttons. Summon/Enkindle should be on the same button, B/F4 I don't remember as I haven't played BLM in a long time.

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And I maintain that patterns are overused in FFXIV. If you know the fight well it feels easy but if you don't it's frustrating. It's probably not something I'm doing a good job explaining. I guess maybe it's that FFXIV pve is more proactive (know where to be) while, say, WoW is more reactive (respond to the unexpected and get yourself back into the fight). Obviously there are reactive mechanics in FFXIV and proactive ones in WoW but in general they each lean heavily on proactive pattern recognition and reactive chaos.

I personally prefer pve in WoW, it seems more accessible and definitely has a lower skill floor but a waaay higher ceiling with the people at the top being part of a world wide esport. That said, FFXIV's rotations in WoW would make WoW impossible. I'm imagining doing the summoner rotation on heroic Jaina and it's making my eyes cross.

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See, this shows that difficulty is also subjective. I actively play both games, and I find WoW's "reactive" gameplay to be harder to get into than FFXIV. I don't play at the high end on either, so I can't say what would be harder for me as both are too hard. But at the low end, FFXIV is definitely way easier. The only reason why I could even get into WoW was because I could make do with using less buttons and I don't need to move as much in some fights.

Discussion needs to end. Its started by a troll who doesn't know nor wants to learn what his tanks cooldowns are lol

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Originally Posted by linayar

Agreed only if they're not commonly used. For the typical 1-2-3 combo, I would hate to be on the same button because it's clearer for me if they're on separate buttons. Summon/Enkindle should be on the same button, B/F4 I don't remember as I haven't played BLM in a long time.

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Blizzard IV is only usable while under Umbral Ice, Fire IV only while in Astral Fire. They are on separate buttons but if you are able to use one you are not able to use the other.

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See, this shows that difficulty is also subjective. I actively play both games, and I find WoW's "reactive" gameplay to be harder to get into than FFXIV. I don't play at the high end on either, so I can't say what would be harder for me as both are too hard. But at the low end, FFXIV is definitely way easier. The only reason why I could even get into WoW was because I could make do with using less buttons and I don't need to move as much in some fights.

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I am pretty confident of my ability in WoW. I used to do some heroic and mythic raiding and stopped because of the insane time commitment, not because I doubted I could handle it.

Meanwhile in FFXIV Dancer treats me well but other than that my in game life story has been "I'll do the thing! *fail* *fail* *fail*"

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

Discussion needs to end. Its started by a troll who doesn't know nor wants to learn what his tanks cooldowns are lol

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Eeeh, you can argue whether or not the OP made this thread in good faith but I think the conversation about expectations in PUG content is one worth having. Especially since nasty attitudes at the end of Heavensward were a contributing factor to me sitting out Stormblood (that and WoW: Legion was happening and I was mostly there)

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Originally Posted by linayar

Agreed only if they're not commonly used. For the typical 1-2-3 combo, I would hate to be on the same button because it's clearer for me if they're on separate buttons.

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The other reason the 1-2-3 combo is not on a rotation with the same button ... if you miss the enemy once, you are going to go through one or two GCDs doing minimal damage, as the miss does not count for the DPS proc bonus.

This is a lot worse for melee classes. Dragoon, monk, paladin and gunbreaker all have at least two combos that use the same starting attack.

（。々°） Um... What! | (• ◡•)| (❍ᴥ❍ʋ) What does this... even say!! (×_×#)

Someone explain...?? ⤜(XᗩX)⤏

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Originally Posted by BeautyAstrologian

（。々°） Um... What! | (• ◡•)| (❍ᴥ❍ʋ) What does this... even say!! (×_×#)

Someone explain...?? ⤜(XᗩX)⤏

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Welcome back Militaryvet / Titanman.

Can you make another of these megathreads. To get the discussion and drama going on. I wish to read these when I'm on the break xD

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

Discussion needs to end. Its started by a troll who doesn't know nor wants to learn what his tanks cooldowns are lol

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I thought something made my cringedar tingle when I saw the tangential powerpoint chart.

op needs to git gud

I don't understand why we can't have options. Or rather options that aren't easy and very easy. It's usually mildly challenging -> nerf. 90% of the game is like that. I'm still hoping for a Duty Roulette min ilvl. These are fun.

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Originally Posted by BeautyAstrologian

（。々°） Um... What! | (• ◡•)| (❍ᴥ❍ʋ) What does this... even say!! (×_×#)

Someone explain...?? ⤜(XᗩX)⤏

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Goddamnit I thought this one was banned