Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

You want to melee as RDM but how are the devs supposed to balance this? If RDM wears cloth armor, they die in 2 hits. If RDM wears leather armor, they have no mage stats or are forced into JSE/AF only. What kind of WS are they supposed to get? If their WS do more than PLD, then PLD will complain about how they have less hate management tools than RDM (getting out-cured and out WSed by a mage). At least then the forums will have something new to complain about I guess.

Jack-of-all-trades classes don't work in MMOs because they are second-rate at everything that they do and are shoehorned into only using their unique skills. I'd rather see a pure enfeebling magic/dark magic mage than XI's red mages again.

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Originally Posted by Ramsey

Right, because forcing an entire job to drag around 4 sets of unique gear sounds smart. Let's not even discuss itemization of RDM specific gear, or point allotment.

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That's why you pick one play style and maximize it, If I play an elemental Shaman in WoW, I'm not expected to drag around gear suitable to melee or healing and nobody forces that on me either.

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RDM would be more than pointless given this setup. What you're talking about isn't a true hybrid anymore, but a hybrid in the way that Blizzard likes to define the term. A class that can respec to any role.

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And what is wrong with adding choice for different play styles ?

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Unless RDM is better than one of those, in which case, why not just bring 8 RDM

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For the same reason you don't take 4 Shamans into an instance or dungeon in WoW, you balance them to be comparable to other classes.

Of course SE can't even balance Paladin properly so I guess it's not a such a great idea after all.

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It would never be able to outright replace the main tank, main healer, or primary DPS, but it would be able to replace an off tank or off healer in a group transitioning from clearing to farming, or replace a DPS in a group just learning an instance.

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With the ability to switch classes at any time you can do this anyway.

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Not that it would be entirely useless for other situations, it would just be outclassed by other jobs that can permanently inhabit a single role. But I'd be willing to pay that price for the versatility expected of RDM.

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As I said with 8 people the need for a jack of all trades becomes less, and even less when you start talking about alliance content, there is no point taking a class that is average when you can take a class which has a specific role.

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Originally Posted by Suneater

You want to melee as RDM but how are the devs supposed to balance this? If RDM wears cloth armor, they die in 2 hits,If RDM wears leather armor, they have no mage stats or are forced into JSE/AF only.

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You are seriously overestimating the stat system in this game, some PGL gear for example is cloth.

They have mentioned adding class speicfic gear in the future, leather gear with mage stats could be one such example.

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What kind of WS are they supposed to get? If their WS do more than PLD, then PLD will complain about how they have less hate management tools than RDM (getting out-cured and out WSed by a mage). At least then the forums will have something new to complain about I guess.

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Why would they complain, the role of a Paladin is meant to be a tank not a damage dealer, I don't see them complaining that they can't compete with DRGs, MNKs and BLMs.

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Originally Posted by Suneater

Jack-of-all-trades classes don't work in MMOs because they are second-rate at everything that they do and are shoehorned into only using their unique skills. I'd rather see a pure enfeebling magic/dark magic mage than XI's red mages again.

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Wait. No, wait. Wait wait wait.

Are you complaining why a job would be a "second rate at everything" and only count on their unique skills? Are you actually playing? Seriously? Can you tell me the difference between what you said and: Bard, warrior, monk, whitemage, black mage dragoon and paladin? Aren't those jobs used only becasuse of it's "unique skills" while they are mediocre?

Seriously what the...

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Originally Posted by Wycor

Wait. No, wait. Wait wait wait.

Are you complaining why a job would be a "second rate at everything" and only count on their unique skills? Are you actually playing? Seriously? Can you tell me the difference between what you said and: Bard, warrior, monk, whitemage, black mage dragoon and paladin? Aren't those jobs used only becasuse of it's "unique skills" while they are mediocre?

Seriously what the...

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Bard, Warrior, Monk, White Mage, Black Mage, Dragoon, and Paladin are jack-of-all-trades and classes now? Are YOU actually playing?

Redmade are suppose to be support job not melle not casters not healers ------------------

Support job are job's that cast buff's debuffs and offensive spell when needed or defensive spell when needed*

Hence you do you have to cast cure nukes bind gravity ----- refresh* and of course you are welcome to melle or use a bow --- but remember you'll run out of MP------

To fix that problem you re technically telling se to give you 500 mp per tick just so you can attack ----

I guess you want a Mage that uses no mp and only TP---- that would not make it a mage if you use tp though-

to fix that problem se should allow REDMAGE to be engaged and recover mp at the same rate a whitemage and blackmage recover mp while not active--- but of course to support that------ so th job isnt over powered-

cure should only be cure 1---- and nukes should only be tier 1 nukes as well--- That of course would make a redmage weak though---- if he or she decides to be a redmage nuker still- hence would suck for the players who wants to nuke as rdm and buff debuff.

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RDM was anything but inefficient in FFXI. But furthermore, RDM is a third part these things, because that's what Red Mage is. Final Fantasy has an established job system, Red Mage has never varied wildly from its roots in this regard. FFXI was perhaps the biggest departure for the job.

Not to say that innovation is bad, but people expect something specific from a Red Mage, their love and attachment to the job is based around these expectations. Hence this thread, and half the people posting in it.

But last time SE tried to wildly depart from the expected job system... well look what happened.

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I understand your point, but one of the reason that make the last system fails was because it hasn´t enough specialitation, CON and THM were, infact, like red mages. And a lot of the DoW were pretty similar gameplay wise. Job brought two things, the nostalgia factor and specialitation.

And, please, correct me if I´m wrong, but the original concept of RDM fail in FFXI, forcing players to use it as a healer, wich almost surpass WHM. Besides, you can already play as RDM using classes, and it is an interesting combination, specially for solo or small parties wich want to have fun.

Futhermore, you said that the FFXI´s RDM was "perhaps the biggest departure for the job".Maybe that means that the original concept have problems, and the biggest one was that, at the beggining it was one of the most usefful classes, but in the long run it lost efectivity, and only making changes it really start to function well.

We need more magic jobs and more variety. If RDM isn´t change, is better in my opinion if they implement a totally different and new job.

And believe me, saying this isn´t easy for me. Red mage is probably my favourite job. I started as CON just because it reminds me of RDM reading the description :(

[QUOTE=Jinko;645295]It would never be able to outright replace the main tank, main healer, or primary DPS, but it would be able to replace an off tank or off healer in a group transitioning from clearing to farming, or replace a DPS in a group just learning an instance.

actually I was able to tank Ifrit on Conjurer/whitemage so why can't a redmage do it. lol...
The problem here is monster hit's and does the same dammage no mater what gear you wear--- the problem here is the dammage of a monster is sooo powerfull your deffense doesnt even mater-----
se need's to change that--- make hp less usefull and deffense more usefull----
hence they need to make it so 1 deffense monster(Bosses) hits for 9999 while 100 deffense a monster no mater how powerfull they are get's there dammage reduced by 25% at 200 50% at 300 60% at 400 70% at 500 75% at 600 80%----- that would mean if you had 600 deffense-- (Glad Gear only/ marauder cant wear these type of gear) you would get hit for 1999.8 by Ifrit-

while if you are at 500 marauder gear 75% Ifrit would hit you for 2499.05 dammage on average----



And what is wrong with adding choice for different play styles ?



For the same reason you don't take 4 Shamans into an instance or dungeon in WoW, you balance them to be comparable to other classes.

Of course SE can't even balance Paladin properly so I guess it's not a such a great idea after all.

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Originally Posted by Firon

No that's what FF 11 thought rdm should be, rdm has never really been Debuffer it just had a little of everything. Some folks need to remember that FF 11 is not the whole FF Franchise.

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^this. 1000x this.

So RDM being a jack of all trades, it would get some melee skills (likely with status effects) and a little of both support and offensive magic. Red Mages have traditionally used swords but Gladiator is already the 1-handed sword class. However Red Mages have also been known to use Rapiers so that would make Fencer the class (since class = weapon) which leads to Red Mage as the Job.

Now Rapiers are a little different from Gladiator swords, they would be used without a shield and thus would be able to parry. Parry should be a form of light damage mitigation for Red Mage so that it can stand on the front lines, in the same way evade helps Monks stay in the front lines longer. To balance it against WAR's parry ability, RDM would obviously have much less health so it would not be able to take Warrior's spot as a parry tank. Also they could link some conditional skills to parry.

Throw in CNJ/THM as their cross-class, give them Dualcast/Fast Cast as their 15 min and throw in some job exclusive en- spells.

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Originally Posted by Gukie

Redmade are suppose to be support job not melle not casters not healers ------------------

Support job are job's that cast buff's debuffs and offensive spell when needed or defensive spell when needed*

Hence you do you have to cast cure nukes bind gravity ----- refresh* and of course you are welcome to melle or use a bow --- but remember you'll run out of MP------

To fix that problem you re technically telling se to give you 500 mp per tick just so you can attack ----

I guess you want a Mage that uses no mp and only TP---- that would not make it a mage if you use tp though-

to fix that problem se should allow REDMAGE to be engaged and recover mp at the same rate a whitemage and blackmage recover mp while not active--- but of course to support that------ so th job isnt over powered-

cure should only be cure 1---- and nukes should only be tier 1 nukes as well--- That of course would make a redmage weak though---- if he or she decides to be a redmage nuker still- hence would suck for the players who wants to nuke as rdm and buff debuff.

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I very much doubt SE will change the game mechanics to make one or two exceptions just to make one job work Gukie. Frankly I think the MP limitations from being engaged would be one of those things that could keep RDM from being OP, but unless it's magic / support abilities are somewhat tied into their physical offense we'll likely see a repeat of the backline Red Mage just because we'll have a slew of RDM's who can't manage MP effectively.

And before people say "That's what Refresh is for", I've been specifically avoiding the spell in my ideas because it specifically turned against RDM in FFXI. Despite what people think the developers originally intended for Refresh supplement Red Mage's ability to be in the front lines without stopping to heal every battle. Things didn't go as intended, people found the hidden effect of elemental staves, series of other unfortunate events, BAM RDM was cemented in backline position. Of course since only a few jobs actually utilize mp, it might not be so detrimental (especially if it's AoE) so it might not be so bad. But if then again it might enforce BLM stacking with Ballad / Refresh giving insane MP regeneration. So for now I'd much rather avoid "Refresh" outside a self-buff only, trait, or find ways to restore MP through other means like Runic Blade / Aspir.

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Originally Posted by Elgeron

Futhermore, you said that the FFXI´s RDM was "perhaps the biggest departure for the job".Maybe that means that the original concept have problems, and the biggest one was that, at the beggining it was one of the most usefful classes, but in the long run it lost efectivity, and only making changes it really start to function well.

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Actually the original concept had little problems, it was the overall design of the game that made it difficult for RDM to actually play as it's original concept. SE improved on newer hybrid jobs like BLU and DNC by tieing their ability to function as a mage within their melee, however RDM was so pigeonholed into the backline position for so long and to make it comply within it's concept would require the job to be entirely rebuilt a 2nd time and perhaps rebuild the magic system altogether, SE just said it wasn't worth fixing at that point.

They could always build on the Sword Mage / Rune-knight idea and make RDM an elemental/enfeebling Melee attacker..

A melee mage that focuses on En~, and Spike Spells.

• En-Fire (Stacks to add DoT)
• En-Thunder (Stacks to add Stun effect)
• En-Blizzard (Stacks to add Paralyze effect)
• En-Drain (Stacks to add Gravity effect)
• Earth Spikes (Reduces damage taken, and causes Slow to attacker)
• Wind Spikes (Increased spell resist, random Blink effect)
• Bubble (Double Max HP for a short time)
• Haste (self)

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Originally Posted by Gukie

RDM = Support

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Believe it or not the 11 after Final Fantasy in Final Fantasy 11, is used to indicate that it is the eleventh entry in a series. I.E. there were 10 games before it, and various offshoots, many of which featured Red Mage, and in none of which was Red Mage a support class.

It's a tired saying, but this is not FF11, nor should it be. I loved 11, but this is a different game.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

That's why you pick one play style and maximize it.

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....? This really doesn't deal with the problem at all. You're making one job that has 3-4 different play styles, which is unfortunately, inherently counter to the current job system.

Nor does this address the other issue, Red Mage would either be inherently weaker than any of those specialized classes at their role, or better, in which case those classes would be useless. In a perfect world, where they're evenly balanced, it's still just a really unappealing approach that runs counter to the design of the job system.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

For the same reason you don't take 4 Shamans into an instance or dungeon in WoW, you balance them to be comparable to other classes.

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This has more to do with class buffs and debuffs. So unless SE starts implementing that sort of system into the game to force players to take different jobs, this argument is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

With the ability to switch classes at any time you can do this anyway.

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We're having a reasonable discussion here, and I don't have any sort of idea in my head that my solution is the best one, but try to read it and understand it, because I think you're missing something.

You can't do what I'm describing with the current system. That's why I'm suggesting it, it would give Red Mage a unique role to play, which is the key to the job system.

How is having the ability to play every role unique? It's not, you can already change jobs in the field. (Though you did just suggest a system where Red Mage can swap between roles out of combat.)

The ability to play every role in the course of a single fight is unique.

Currently, you're correct, you could have someone run as a DPS, and swap to heals for boss fights or something. But what I'm describing is a RDM being able to swap roles at specific points within fights. Perhaps your group runs fine on one healer until the boss is at 25%, run with a RDM and let him DPS and switch to heals at the end to help you get through.

RDM's abilities could be built around swapping roles, encouraging them to plug leaks in the raid's efficiency, and never allowing them to take up a single role for long enough to replace that role for an entire fight. Thus requiring at least 1 main tank, 1 main healer, and 1 or more main DPS. (Though I suppose you could do some weird stuff with a few RDM swapping roles in reverse... but that kind of crap is what we live for, isn't it?)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

You are seriously overestimating the stat system in this game, some PGL gear for example is cloth.

They have mentioned adding class speicfic gear in the future, leather gear with mage stats could be one such example.

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This is true, but more importantly, the class could just have its abilities balanced around a certain set of stats. Unless stat/ability relationships are tied up in some seriously misguided and hardcoded systems, you could simply balance abilities, defensive, offensive, healing, what have you around a certain arrangement of stats.

In regards to MP concerns, Bard is giving out MP regen songs. Also they could give Fencer/Red Mage an ability like Featherfoot. Guarantees a parry and grants MP upon a successful parry.

Yes! I am a strong, independent bla... red mage! :3

Ooh, more fears to add to my list. o:

(Just looking at initial post, not bothering to read the several pages that follow)

I really like the idea of Red Mage combos branching between tp moves and spells. I think Red Mage should still use MP for spells, but conserve the MP if using them at the end of a combo. As a job, I think if they ever add Fencer, it would branch from this but also gain abilities from both THM and CNJ (low-tier nuking and healing respectively) while utilizing its own spells, since no two classes learn the same abilities.
Dualcast is a staple for the class, but White Mage already gets this in the form of Presence of Mind. Maybe Red Mage should get a fast-cast action, allowing them to temporarily halve or quarter cast/recast timers.

I guess I should be glad to see so many pro-melee/fencer/not-refresh-bot posts with regards to Red Mage. I just hope the CMs and the devs are reading the threads for ideas.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I guess I should be glad to see so many pro-melee/fencer/not-refresh-bot posts with regards to Red Mage. I just hope the CMs and the devs are reading the threads for ideas.

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This thread isn't in Japanese so its unlikely :D

Keep Rdm as an enfeebling job, what it was always meant to be.
The way the classes/jobs abilities and spells are spread out and structured has given Rdm the chance it needs to fit in as an enfeebling job.
Unlike ffxi, other jobs had access to most of Rdms crucial spells, and made Rdm a redundant job, luckily it may be able to redeem itself in this game.

Heck.. Could even make rdm another advanced job for Thaumaturge.. Give it dia and bio back along with slow paralyze and bind.

Sure rdm could use swords, but was it good with them?... lolno

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Originally Posted by Leoheart

Keep Rdm as an enfeebling job, what it was always meant to be.

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What Final Fantasy games besides 11 was a RDM "supposed" to be an enfeebler ?

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Sure rdm could use swords, but was it good with them?... lolno

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You aren't using your imagination, just because it wasn't A+ in 11 with swords doesn't mean it can't be in this game.

None of the Job's in this game are really comparable to their FF11 counterparts so why would you assume RDM would be.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

What Final Fantasy games besides 11 was a RDM "supposed" to be an enfeebler ?

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Lol Fair point, actually.

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Originally Posted by Leoheart

Make RDM a magic fencer, what it was always meant to be.

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Fixed. So many typos. :O

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Originally Posted by Jinko

What Final Fantasy games besides 11 was a RDM "supposed" to be an enfeebler ?

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http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces...lone-happy.png

YOU MEAN THAT ELEVEN MEANS THERE WERE FINAL FANTASY GAMES PRIOR!?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Fixed. So many typos. :O

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Ohh like Fire Sword? Thunder Stab? Tempest Thrust?

I have to admit I did like the enfeeble fencer, but magic fencer is cool too. Not sure how they'd do it though, its a pretty broad thing lol

How about make a BLU? lol jk...(or not)

I didn't read the whole thread but what if a RDM type job could apply debuffs through their weapon attacks? Instead of a paralyze spell they get a paralyze aura and each successive procc of the weapon increased the status affect?

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

How about make a BLU? lol jk...(or not)

I didn't read the whole thread but what if a RDM type job could apply debuffs through their weapon attacks? Instead of a paralyze spell they get a paralyze aura and each successive procc of the weapon increased the status affect?

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Yea it seems this is the most popular choice.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Ohh like Fire Sword? Thunder Stab? Tempest Thrust?

I have to admit I did like the enfeeble fencer, but magic fencer is cool too. Not sure how they'd do it though, its a pretty broad thing lol

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Like this.

A few points i would like to point out. I think the dev team went the right direction by removing enfeeb skills and attaching them to combo's/skills, but there are some many folks here set on making rdm an debuffer.

I'll explain in more detail.

Making a Redmage spells cost tp would mean it would need to fight the monster in order to cast(should not be the case for all spells mostly dmg spells. This thus in turn making the WS > spell > ws combo setup kinda forced on the player.

I also think cure's and enhancing spells should cost mp and i think the DEV team should get smart and make new healing spells for the FF universe. RDM should learn a cure that in between cure/cura that heals for something like 650hp mabye they could call it Ruby heal or something.

I also had this other idea that rdm could have these non elemental spells instead of normal ele ones, something like ruin from FF 13, So this way rdm wont get stuck in the trap with only a few ele choices.


1. DBL Cast

2. Poison Thrust (ws)

3. Silence Flurry (ws)

4 Death Blossom (ws)

5. Blinding Thrust(ws)

6. Paralyzing Flurry(ws)

7. Ruin

9.Ruinaga

10 EnLight

11 Endark

12. Faith ( Increases magic attack power)

13. Bravery (Increases Attack power)

14. Ruby Heal (Cure spell)

15. Ruby Shield (-5% dmg reduction, can be AoE)

Job skill

16. Composure(enhances buffs)

17. ???(i have no name) (Next ws or spell only cost half the tp)

18. Dispel(Removes beneficial buffs from the target)

19. Ruby Charge (ws)

20. Chain Attacks(Able to use WS/spells for no tp cost for 15 secs) I thought chainspell was to magic only.

So to stay true to the Meele/Magic Hybrid i think the class/job should be made like this.LNC/WHM to help on both dmg and buffing. Invig would help it cast more spells and do mroe dmg. WHM would help it AoE it's buffs like Bravery/Faith.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Ohh like Fire Sword? Thunder Stab? Tempest Thrust?

I have to admit I did like the enfeeble fencer, but magic fencer is cool too. Not sure how they'd do it though, its a pretty broad thing lol

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That's the thing, though. A magic fencer doesn't have to be limited to just nukes through weapons. Sure, Ingus setting his sword on fire in the opening for FFIII was awesome and what the job should aspire to be, but more can be done to mix melee and magic.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

That's the thing, though. A magic fencer doesn't have to be limited to just nukes through weapons. Sure, Ingus setting his sword on fire in the opening for FFIII was awesome and what the job should aspire to be, but more can be done to mix melee and magic.

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yeah that's how i want rdm to be. Melee mage who can do dmg but cast spells when needed. Honestly it doesnt even have to be rdm they make i would totally kill for mystic knight.

Sine necro'ing threads is all the rage:

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Originally Posted by Firon

I also think cure's and enhancing spells should cost mp and i think the DEV team should get smart and make new healing spells for the FF universe.

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Well, yes. Final Fantasy's magic has always been cut and dry and focused exclusively on White Magic being "it" when it came to healing. Blue Magic and Geomancy would be good candidates to expand as far as healing potential, in that regard.

Generally speaking, you need targeted heals (minor, medium, major potency), AoE heals, heals over time (HoT), smart heals, healing as a secondary effect from mitigation abilities, location-based heals, and lesser heals with secondary effects. Right now Final Fantasy has targeted heals and AoE heals, because Regen's effects are so minor they don't really qualify as HoT.

Red Mages getting a heal spell would have to be secondary and reliant on a proc or something, just to be on the safe side.

So...yeah....how about them Red Mages? With their rapiers and pimp hats?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Sine necro'ing threads is all the rage:

Well, yes. Final Fantasy's magic has always been cut and dry and focused exclusively on White Magic being "it" when it came to healing. Blue Magic and Geomancy would be good candidates to expand as far as healing potential, in that regard.

Generally speaking, you need targeted heals (minor, medium, major potency), AoE heals, heals over time (HoT), smart heals, healing as a secondary effect from mitigation abilities, location-based heals, and lesser heals with secondary effects. Right now Final Fantasy has targeted heals and AoE heals, because Regen's effects are so minor they don't really qualify as HoT.

Red Mages getting a heal spell would have to be secondary and reliant on a proc or something, just to be on the safe side.

So...yeah....how about them Red Mages? With their rapiers and pimp hats?

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Yeah, lol regen is terrible.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I think you hit the nail on the head with Combos.

If they make RDM combos a WS > Spell > WS or any combination like that, it will instantly solve the FFXI Problem.

I hope and pray every night they don't mess this up..

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This makes me think of a BLUE MAGE, which is based on Melee/spells. RDM had "En(Element)" to their swords.. I understand that, but they were meant to be sitting back and casting, they had no amazing melee damage aside from sparkling graphics upon initial cast of an en- spell. Would I like RDM to have Combos, spell/tp based? FUCK YES! But let's be real... You're aiming more towards BLU with that suggestion. What would set RDM different from any other mage class in FFXIV though? MAKE RDM a TANKING CASTER. Yes. Tanking Caster. Too radical? Not really. En(Element) spells to their swords would make sense, depending on what weakness boss/mobs they're facing you could switch between the element wheel. Just because RDM is a caster, doesn't mean they have to have spells whose casting time is 2seconds or higher. Perhaps 1second or less than that.

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Originally Posted by Firon

As the title says Red Mage is not a back line class I hope it's not when they implement it.

I know a lot of folks who want this class/job, I also know many more people who don't this job to be standing in the back with the white mage casting cure. In XI this class was hit or miss with a lot of folks some quit the class cause they were criticized for melee, thus in turn could play the class the way they wanted.

I have a few idea's that could help stop this from happening in this game as well.

1. Make RDM attack spells cost tp.

2. Make support spells like en-fire and such cost mp but gain more effectiveness when the caster has more than 1k tp.

3. Let Red mage combo into spells. Ex: Poison Thrust > Silence Thrust > Fira(Single target for Red mage).

That's all i could think of for now if you have any other idea's so Red Mage wont get stuck in a back line position like in XI. Please give some feedback, or suggestions.

I really don't want to see this class to feel like an Pure Mage again.

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Why are you even dreaming of the far off future? Let's deal with this here and NOW mess.

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Originally Posted by Lurex

Why are you even dreaming of the far off future? Let's deal with this here and NOW mess.

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This is one of those situations where we have get our foot in the door now. That way the devs get the idea that maybe they should help RDM live up to concept (largely why I want Fencer implemented) instead of giving the job band-aids like enfeebling magic and refresh.

Alot of people seem to disagree with what Red Mage is really supposed to be. In an effort to explain the job (and why people think it was ruined by XI) I would like to take a moment to discuss the original Red Mage, circa 1987, with it's humble beginnings as one of the 6 original jobs in Final Fantasy 1.

This original iteration of the job is, in my opinion, the best example of the job out of any of the subsequent games. This is because it is the only version that stands strong on it's own merits alone, where it is not merely a steppingstone on the way to more powerful jobs nor is it a one trick job with doublecast (which was only even considered powerful when combined with stronger abilities from other jobs).

The original Red Mage was nearly as good with a sword as warrior (and all the best weapons in the game were swords) and could use both black and white magic (though their selection was more limited then either black or white mage). Nevertheless it was a valuable asset to the party. However the play style of the Red Mage was never glamorous.

In random encounters the Red Mage was strong enough to kill most monsters in one round with a normal attack with a sword. This was great as it allowed you to easily dispatch attacking groups of 3 in a single round (assuming your 4th character was either a white or black mage) while saving precious MP for when it is most needed (since you could only recover MP at an Inn or with the rare Ether). This was usually the most effective use for Red Mage in these encounters since, even though they had access to some spells that damaged all opponents the damage was usually too weak to kill them in one hit, meaning it would take 2 rounds to kill a group of 6 mobs either way.

In Boss fights a Red Mage greatly enhanced the party's offense and survival. With access to the spells Haste and Temper the Red Mage could more then triple the damage of other characters (or his own but that was less effective since casting the spells takes up your action for the round while another character can attack while receiving the buff in the same round). Red Mage also had access to strong single target healing spells (they were restricted from using the full party heals) so they did well spot healing critically injured party members while a white mage cast heals to keep the rest of the party at full health. This was usually the most effective use of Red Mage during boss fights because usually by the time you finished casting Haste and Temper on two other melee characters either the boss was dead or your party were all injured badly enough to require the additional healing.

This is what Red Mage is supposed to be.

In my opinion the version of Red Mage in FFXI was originally meant to be a faithful reproduction of this original archetype. Unfortunately the more complex mechanics of non-turn-based games are what lead to the downfall of the Red Mage as a job that is useful in and of itself. In XI typically the most efficient way for a Red Mage to deal with a mob that was decent challenge or lower was with a sword, but because of the mechanics of the game mobs that were this weak were rarely worth killing, and all the stronger mobs end up being treated as 'boss' fights meaning the most efficient use of the red mage's skills are in buffing and healing.

Therefore, while I really like the original concept of the Red Mage as a sword wielding generalist mage, the mechanics of any non-turn-based game will render the majority of their skills useless in most situations. We have to take this opportunity to redesign the Red Mage job into one that will be more useful in a real-time, party based environment.

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Originally Posted by Eremor

Therefore, while I really like the original concept of the Red Mage as a sword wielding generalist mage, the mechanics of any non-turn-based game will render the majority of their skills useless in most situations. We have to take this opportunity to redesign the Red Mage job into one that will be more useful in a real-time, party based environment.

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Hence the different approaches some of us take. I never liked buff-bot/refresh-bot RDM because to me it is demeaning to see a sword&magic hybrid become the buffer because the devs decide to not bother fixing the job (same issue I had with how WoW treated Paladins up until they were fixed in 3.0). Ideally we could have the three disciplines of RDM become play-styles possible depending on how you like to play (that way the guys that like to nuke do so, the guys that like to heal do so, and the guys that like to melee do so), but with the Armory system in place, I instead support Fencer being the parent class to RDM, RDM being focused on melee combat with magic mixed in the form of magic fencing with situational spells to help the group and hinder enemies. Let SCH or BLU or whoever is going to be based off Arcanist be the debuff/buff-bot this time around. All I ask is that such crap is kept away from my favorite job.

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Originally Posted by Eremor

Alot of people seem to disagree with what Red Mage is really supposed to be. In an effort to explain the job (and why people think it was ruined by XI) I would like to take a moment to discuss the original Red Mage, circa 1987, with it's humble beginnings as one of the 6 original jobs in Final Fantasy 1.

This original iteration of the job is, in my opinion, the best example of the job out of any of the subsequent games. This is because it is the only version that stands strong on it's own merits alone, where it is not merely a steppingstone on the way to more powerful jobs nor is it a one trick job with doublecast (which was only even considered powerful when combined with stronger abilities from other jobs).

The original Red Mage was nearly as good with a sword as warrior (and all the best weapons in the game were swords) and could use both black and white magic (though their selection was more limited then either black or white mage). Nevertheless it was a valuable asset to the party. However the play style of the Red Mage was never glamorous.

In random encounters the Red Mage was strong enough to kill most monsters in one round with a normal attack with a sword. This was great as it allowed you to easily dispatch attacking groups of 3 in a single round (assuming your 4th character was either a white or black mage) while saving precious MP for when it is most needed (since you could only recover MP at an Inn or with the rare Ether). This was usually the most effective use for Red Mage in these encounters since, even though they had access to some spells that damaged all opponents the damage was usually too weak to kill them in one hit, meaning it would take 2 rounds to kill a group of 6 mobs either way.

In Boss fights a Red Mage greatly enhanced the party's offense and survival. With access to the spells Haste and Temper the Red Mage could more then triple the damage of other characters (or his own but that was less effective since casting the spells takes up your action for the round while another character can attack while receiving the buff in the same round). Red Mage also had access to strong single target healing spells (they were restricted from using the full party heals) so they did well spot healing critically injured party members while a white mage cast heals to keep the rest of the party at full health. This was usually the most effective use of Red Mage during boss fights because usually by the time you finished casting Haste and Temper on two other melee characters either the boss was dead or your party were all injured badly enough to require the additional healing.

This is what Red Mage is supposed to be.

In my opinion the version of Red Mage in FFXI was originally meant to be a faithful reproduction of this original archetype. Unfortunately the more complex mechanics of non-turn-based games are what lead to the downfall of the Red Mage as a job that is useful in and of itself. In XI typically the most efficient way for a Red Mage to deal with a mob that was decent challenge or lower was with a sword, but because of the mechanics of the game mobs that were this weak were rarely worth killing, and all the stronger mobs end up being treated as 'boss' fights meaning the most efficient use of the red mage's skills are in buffing and healing.

Therefore, while I really like the original concept of the Red Mage as a sword wielding generalist mage, the mechanics of any non-turn-based game will render the majority of their skills useless in most situations. We have to take this opportunity to redesign the Red Mage job into one that will be more useful in a real-time, party based environment.

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Sorry you wasted your time typing that but you DO Realize both whm and blm could do all of what rdm did right it was never an buffing class class.. you might as well say BLM was a buffer in FF 1 also. RDM is what they describe them in the game "Jack of all trades". If they could make BLU mage an DD. They can make an rdm with Middle ground dps with good buffs.

I'm hoping they go with the Mystic Knight side of the class.

Give it En-Fire, En-Lightning and En-Ice, which would be an MP draining toggle, these spells would turn 100% of their physical damage, so all auto-attacks, weapon skills, and offensive abilities would turn into magical damage of the appropriate element. Each en-spell would also offer different debuffs on the enemy, like en-spell would lower the enemies resistance to fire and lower the enemies attack, while en-ice would lower the enemies resistance to ice and lower the enemies evasion, possibly also grant slow.

They would also get Elemental Blast, that would change element based on what en-spell they were currently using, which would be a PBAOE which would vary based on proximity to the target. They would be able to chain elemental blast off of certain weapon skills.

They would also have "Cure".

Elemental wall would be another one of their abilities, which is a protect like spell, based on the currently used en-spell, that would offer a little big of protection like protect, but not magical damage in general, just resistance to the respective element, it would also be a toggle, draining MP as it's active.

Maybe a self refresh.

Something like that would be fun. It'll be more like the Red Mage from FF1 and less like the refresh/cure bitch with a sword from FFXI

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Sorry you wasted your time typing that but you DO Realize both whm and blm could do all of what rdm did right it was never an buffing class class.. you might as well say BLM was a buffer in FF 1 also. RDM is what they describe them in the game "Jack of all trades". If they could make BLU mage an DD. They can make an rdm with Middle ground dps with good buffs.

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I may be misunderstanding your response, but I do not believe you are understanding that post.

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Originally Posted by Koz

I may be misunderstanding your response, but I do not believe you are understanding that post.

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What he's getting at is that generalist design doesn't work. It never has.

FFXI reinvented Blue Mage with the hopes that it would shut up the players that wanted Red Mage to be melee-viable instead of, as Vaymathias put so well, "the refresh/cure bitch with a sword". I'm just hoping SE can get Red Mage right this time around and save us from that fate.

Well there are some saving graces in FFXIV that would help prevent RDM from becoming (at least totally) assimilated into the same role in FFXI. The biggest differences are built into the game mechanics and we don't have to deal with poor skill levels, the power of spells and weaponskills grow with our level so there is actual scaling, and the other big one is all classes/jobs have their own UNIQUE abilities and spells with limited support abilities kills our dependency on spells from other classes, so there is a good solid chance to make something truly good here.