PL Woes

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Player 4: So where are we going?
Player 5: Help I got agg
Player 6: I like cheesecake.

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Player 5 levels down!

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

That reminds me of my favorite FFXI quote: White Mage; "Wait, did you guys pull already? Where are you?"

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Reminds me of the most classic moment I'll never forget:

Dunes party, around Lv15. Puller went out for a sheep and apparently missed with his ranged, and just as he was returning the WHM had put up Protectra. The WHM's HP went from 100% to 0 in one Critical. Funniest thing I ever saw.

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Originally Posted by Sfarzoso

Player 5 levels down!

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Don't get me wrong. I am not advocating a return to XI's punishing, obtuse, 2 hour walk-of-death quests.

Just tie-in Ability/Spell Unlocks to the already easy Class Quests but structure the quests so that we are utilizing the new Ability/Spell in order to "learn" it.

As for Limit Breaks/Genkai, just solo an NM or Class NPC to "Prove yourself" is all I am asking. (Not as hard as Maat though).

Maat wasn't hard! The RDM was a dick, but he wasn't that bad with preparation. Yayaya I know "q.q i had to fight him 30 times, the hell he isn't hard!" He wasn't. lol.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Maat wasn't hard! The RDM was a dick, but he wasn't that bad with preparation. Yayaya I know "q.q i had to fight him 30 times, the hell he isn't hard!" He wasn't. lol.

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It was the execution of said preparation that doomed me. Have you ever seen a Galka do the Taru /panic dance?

they need a level limit quest that test you as a player, to be able to level the next 5 levels.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I have a question, how well are all the WoW clones doing?.... They must be stealing all of WoW's subscribers right? Copying WoW must be the secret to success..... HINT: It isn't. I do agree with the timing of WoW being the cause for its popularity, but the "casuals" who fell in love with WoW and its mechanics are still playing it. They are not dumping their millions of subs into games like XIV, The few that do leave WoW to come over here, or to other easy-play games, are drops in the bucket and end up going back to it anyway.

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I dont disagree but...

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Games that try to emulate WoW are going to fail just as hard as games that target the niche crowd. The main problem lies in the fact that while trying to cater to casuals, and failing to steal enough subs from the giant, you're going to alienate the people who want the other style of game. Bad business? Failing to steal customers while alienating your franchise die-hards. I can't think of a worse business model.

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Quite frankly this is not what investors believe. And investors keep SE's business running. We can argue game logic all day long but all the investor cares about is how SE is going to make as much money as possible. The only possible answer SE can have, that will satisfy an investor, is "We are going to take control of the casual market". That is it. No other options. The timing isn't right to start going against the grain. We are in a period right now where its all about the casual market. Investors don't give two craps about logic, only what they saw work. Has the niche system generated millions of subscribers? Never. Has the casual system? WoW's did.

Now as an investor what are you gonna do? Invest in some company thats gonna take some "radical new approach" that won't target the market? Or are you gonna look for games that take a similar approach to WoW, but have the potential to do it better? Its a no-brainer lol.

Niche system: 0
WoW system: 1

In terms of probability, an investor will go for the WoW system every time. Its been proven. The niche system has yet to prove itself as a cash cow. Of course as you pointed out, beating WoW is *not* easy. But businesses run in this cycle all the time. You get a leading competitor, bunch of copycats that fail trying to beat the competitor, then all of a sudden a company rises up with somethin brand new and pwns everyone.

Apple did it to Microsoft
WoW did it to Everquest
Microsoft did it to Sony (with the Xbox)
Nintendo did it Microsoft AND Sony (Wii says hi)
insert more examples here

All in all you can't blame SE for doing what their investors want. At the end o the day, for any business, you do what makes your investors happy. Investors want success like WoW, so thats what you have to try to give them.

This doesn't sit right with me though Lux. If this is investor orientated why is it still active? Any other game that failed as hard as FFXIV did would have its funding cut and labeled a loss. Yet here wer are nearly a year later after months up months of free trial.

It seems to me that SE cannot let a flagship title go down so hard which is why they are pumping money into a dead horse. In this case wouldn't going back to basic to recoup their previous fans satisfy the reviewers so FF can keep its luster and still be obtainable? I understand investors are likely balding old men who think computers are communist machines and wonder why the secretary hasn't fetched them another drink yet but it stands to reason.

If FFXI had X number of subscribers for Y years. They tried something different with FFXIV and it failed horribly. Wouldn't they shelter under the comfort and safety of a previous success?

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

This doesn't sit right with me though Lux. If this is investor orientated why is it still active? Any other game that failed as hard as FFXIV did would have its funding cut and labeled a loss. Yet here wer are nearly a year later after months up months of free trial.

It seems to me that SE cannot let a flagship title go down so hard which is why they are pumping money into a dead horse. In this case wouldn't going back to basic to recoup their previous fans satisfy the reviewers so FF can keep its luster and still be obtainable? I understand investors are likely balding old men who think computers are communist machines and wonder why the secretary hasn't fetched them another drink yet but it stands to reason.

If FFXI had X number of subscribers for Y years. They tried something different with FFXIV and it failed horribly. Wouldn't they shelter under the comfort and safety of a previous success?

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Well investors invest in a company, not a game. Games are supposed to improve a company's revenue, so an investor may be lured to either

1) hold his shares
2) buy more shares

based on the projected success of that game, and how much of SE's total revenue that game will generate. In the case of FFXIV, I highly doubt it was ever projected to account for more than a measly few percent of SE's revenue. I'm not shareholder though, so I honestly have no idea what the projections were. I'm only guessing based on the fact that SE has a LOOOOT of products, and were planning to keep pushing new products. So who knows. Point being, its likely not a pivotal point of company success.

Still, success is success and failure is failure to an investor. It is very likely that SE lost quite a few shareholders/shares when FFXIV flopped as hard as it did. I don't keep up with the stock market in Japan, but im willing to bet it was an ugly quarter for SE. The game is still running because apparently Yoshida thinks, rather believes, that FFXIV can be a massive success. For whatever reason, he's convinced that it is the definitive title of the next generation of mmo's. Needless to say, he has investors to convince. When you promise something, and it flops, you can't let it burn in flames when you suckered in a bunch of investors. There's a certain obligation to fulfill that promise, or you lose investor confidence, even potential investor confidence. If that happens your company starts going weeee south.

So really this game is afloat for two reasons: Yoshida thinks its the hottest thing since sliced bread, and SE has to prove that FFXIV is really what they said it was, and that its failure was due to a poor employee. This is also why Tanaka got fired: SE had to prove to its investors that it wasn't the fault of the project, but of some schmuck that sabotaged it. If SE let the game die, they would be admitting that they were wrong about their project and they wasted investors' money on something that wasn't what they said it would be. Not a place you wanna be in lol.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

They tried something different with FFXIV and it failed horribly. Wouldn't they shelter under the comfort and safety of a previous success?

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1.) The "previous success" is still a live, running project.

2.) Comfort and safety are no different to a game developer than stagnation and death.

I got 50 before Esuna, and I barely use it now, just not used to using it.

OP your statement fails on so many levels, think the topics proven that tho lol

I have two points.

1) Esuna is completely meaningless in levelling. One can skip by Esuna in getting CNJ up to 50, and not once in my level to 50 CNJ did I ever go, "Gee, I wish I had Esuna right now". Or even Presence of Mind. Blaming powerlevelling is completely meaningless as it's possible to get to 50 the "normal" way (grinding monsters as a party or doing leves) without ever needing either ability.

2) It isn't about the speed of levelling, but the content. In modern MMORPG design, all the level means is what level content the character can handle. It isn't getting to X level to enjoy Y content, but it's about enjoying Y content because I'm X level. It's why MMO's such as World of Warcraft and Rift are so successful.

And yes, the OP was being a douche.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

And yes, the OP was being a douche.

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Just curious. How would all you armchair PT leaders handle the situation? It seems like everyone makes the leader find the members, secure the teleport, explain the entire fight, take care of any replacements that need to happen, and get them back to their city of choice. All the effort, none of the gratitude. Only bitching and moaning because I put the needs of the other 6 people under my charge ahead of one person who was obviously not ready to do the event.

I hate making PT's in FFXIV because instead of garnering a modicum of respect for the extra work I do. All I get is flamed online because I didn't pat some noobs head while feeding him cotton candy and telling him everything is going to be alright. You can stay and cause another wipe. Waste mine and the others time and resources because you are entitled to PT's carrying you because you are new. /eye roll

I don't want to create a greater schism but people like yourselves would have never of made it in FFXI. I dearly wish that were the case now so I could be among those who take themselves the least bit seriously.

~~~DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW FAST YOU WERE SCROLLING?~~~

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Clicking this link has been scientifically proven to increase linkage.

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Just curious. How would all you armchair PT leaders handle the situation? It seems like everyone makes the leader find the members, secure the teleport, explain the entire fight, take care of any replacements that need to happen, and get them back to their city of choice. All the effort, none of the gratitude. Only bitching and moaning because I put the needs of the other 6 people under my charge ahead of one person who was obviously not ready to do the event.

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Well, yeah, as the guy who's putting the putting the party together, it is sorta your responsibility to do all that. That's why you're the party leader. It's up to you to make the call, and make the decision.

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I hate making PT's in FFXIV because instead of garnering a modicum of respect for the extra work I do. All I get is flamed online because I didn't pat some noobs head while feeding him cotton candy and telling him everything is going to be alright. You can stay and cause another wipe. Waste mine and the others time and resources because you are entitled to PT's carrying you because you are new. /eye roll

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Here's a tip: It isn't what you did that was douchy as how you did it. You didn't want to carry a person who was clearly new to the game. Fine, I can understand that. But you didn't have to ask him if he was drunk. You didn't have to insult him as you did time and time again in this thread. You could taught him how to use those abilities, and maybe he would have done better. Or if you didn't want to do that, you could have asked him to leave and find a replacement.

As far as being flamed online, you brought that on yourself. You come in here to complain about a new player, insult him, and then blame it on something which probably wasn't the case (powerlevelling). And then you start to insult people who disagree with you. If I didn't think you were serious, I'd say you'd be trolling.

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I don't want to create a greater schism but people like yourselves would have never of made it in FFXI. I dearly wish that were the case now so I could be among those who take themselves the least bit seriously.

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Please. Don't presume you know anything about me or my gaming history.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

This doesn't sit right with me though Lux. If this is investor orientated why is it still active? Any other game that failed as hard as FFXIV did would have its funding cut and labeled a loss. Yet here wer are nearly a year later after months up months of free trial.

It seems to me that SE cannot let a flagship title go down so hard which is why they are pumping money into a dead horse. In this case wouldn't going back to basic to recoup their previous fans satisfy the reviewers so FF can keep its luster and still be obtainable? I understand investors are likely balding old men who think computers are communist machines and wonder why the secretary hasn't fetched them another drink yet but it stands to reason.

If FFXI had X number of subscribers for Y years. They tried something different with FFXIV and it failed horribly. Wouldn't they shelter under the comfort and safety of a previous success?

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i can tell you why this doesn't sit right.

does anyone remember why yoshi stated they were going to be working towards 2.0 and not focusing on this game?

he stated it was because ffxiv was not supported by investors and was completely paid for by se itself. that was why they had to start charging was to try and recoup some funds while working towards a new release. the only investor ffxiv has is se and not a group of outside third party investors.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Thanks... I think. I do agree with you though. A 75 Whm who didn't know Benny seems impossible. It took that players 3 solid MONTHS of playing 6 hours a day to reach his cap. I find it difficult to believe he was never called upon except that one moment at 75 to use it and only then realized it was in his abilities list. Even if that was the case that was exceedingly rare. Literally unheard of in my time in FFXI.

It is quite possible for someone who never touched the job until 40 to not have a bloody damn clue what they were doing even if they did cap. Which honestly you can go from 40-50 in 2 days anyways, so learning the job then is just plain utter ignorance. If you expect me to accept that everyone should have 2 days of 'training' after the PL rocket pocket parties and then determine if they are willing to learn how to get good then when even have levels at all?

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Did you ever consider that maybe he didn't unlock any of his job abilities until after he hit 50? If you are not as dumb as a rock then yes you can easily learn how to play any class in this game efficiently enough for the easy endgame content this game has in 2 days hell it takes less time then that, there is nothing difficult about playing any class especially a WHM. This could have all been avoided had you simply said "hey WHM please use Esuna if tank gets petrified". Instead you insult him and come qq on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Hell just let us all have 50's and you can pick a class whenever you log in. Apparently that is what PLers want anyways why not oblige them and toss the whole leveling thing completely. I cannot be bothered to put more then 10 hours of effort into attaining my cap lets play some of that awesome and fun end game! Surely those 6 events will never get boring day after day after day.

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Thats a pretty strong assumption, I'm pretty sure most PLers are just happy enough to get to 40 quickly and are well aware that PLing is pretty much done at 40.

I know lots of folks that are great on their jobs that where PLed and I know plenty of folks that are mediocre on their jobs that didn't. PL isn't the issue ignorance is.

This thread is a prime example of how people who are subjectively against PLing are going out of their way to look for reasons why PLing hurts the game to support their perspective.

Although, the logical thing to do is find the things that are wrong/bad/annoying in game and in turn determine objectively what the cause of it is.

The fact that someone would argue that a WHM who doesn't know to use Esuna is a problem that is rooted primarily in PLing right away, which in turn implies that they would learn Esuna through grinding levels, is actually enough reason to laugh and walk away.

The problem is that the current "legit" methods of leveling aren't fun/exciting/quick enough that people are encouraged to engage in the content.

The game needs something to encourage players to get out there and have fun leveling their classes without a PL. Once everyone hits 40. they move onto stronghold because at that point you can then gain exp with a level 50 in the party. There needs to be larger penalties for power leveling (no chains if mobs are claimed with a gap in levels!!!) and fun, entertaining low level content.

My suggestion?

Combine the concept of a leve with the concept of a quest and traditional "camping" parties, or the types of parties seen in stronghold. Everyone would be able to pick up this type of leve from the Grand Company. There would be tiers, just like current leves, based on the camp chosen and working up to eventually entering the Strongholds. It would have a very long/or no time limit with minimual restrictions. Easily repeatable. I would call it a "training" mission, with the story context being that the Grand Companies are trying to train recruits in "battle tactics" in preparation for the oncoming conflict with the Garlean Empire.

The leve would require players close in range to gather up at a camp, and head out into the field to "train" on monsters. I would prefer overworld monsters for this part. After either reaching a specified number of chain kills, or exp percentage gained by players in the party, the leve would end giving a performance based EXP/GC Seal kicker, with bonuses for things like having a balanced party, highest chain, number of combos exectuted, etc. These would be listed so players know they did a good job, and would be split evenly so that you don't have one class getting all the bonuses.

Then, a GC NPC would pop with a chest that could be looted. Maybe there would be some that would spawn monsters as reward boss fights, depending on the types of monsters you were killing. Rewards would be potions, food, HQ mats, materia, GC seals, and other useful/disposable/sellable items.

The main idea is to take what things are FUN about leveling without a PL and REWARD PLAYERS FOR MAKING THAT CHOICE.

I'll be honest, I did not read most of the posts after the OP. I can say, however, that while PLing does have an impact on learning your class, I do not think that it's that big of deal to overcome. I really think it depends on the player and their class, versus how they got to 50. I've been in maybe 3 xp parties and have all but two classes to 50. I love the fact that I was able to get on the game and have a 50 in a day or so.

In xi you had to solo to 10 (20 if you wanted to skip the dunes), pull one or two mobs at once, and spend a long long time to get 75 on one job (before the new expansions). Did it make you better? I don't think so. I remember doing runs in Sky/Sea/Dynamis/You name it with horrible players who all got to level cap the "legitimate way" and still sucked. What it truly comes down to is how fast someone can learn to do their job the right way. I think you should cut some slack to the guy doing his first Moogle as a WHM. That's not an easy task. In our shell we expalin the fight before we go in if it is someones first try, and if we wipe we let them know what they need to focus on more. 99% of the time they pick it up and we win.

Overall I don't think PLing to 50 matters as much as how fast you learn the specifics of the fight and what your function is.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

he stated it was because ffxiv was not supported by investors and was completely paid for by se itself. that was why they had to start charging was to try and recoup some funds while working towards a new release. the only investor ffxiv has is se and not a group of outside third party investors.

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That just means that they did not specifically use revenue generated from stock sales to fund the game. That does not mean that SE still doesn't have to show the maximum amount of profit to investors at all times. They were just prudent and decided not to use investor money towards this specific project. If they had, you better believe more ppl would have been fired by the board of directors. Regardless, what affects the company affects the investor. If SE loses money, their investors lose money, and investors dont like losing money. And Square Enix is a publicly traded company on the Japanese stock exchange.

SE had to recoup their losses because of just that. A loss for the company is a loss for the investors. Gains for the company are gains for the investors. If a project fails, especially one that enticed ppl to buy more shares of the company, it would be suicide to not do what you can to fix the mistake. Again that is why Tanaka was fired. It is also why there will be a 2.0. I never bothered to track SE's price history on the Japanese stock exchange, but I bet FFXIV's hype, release, and failure are all reflected in SE's stock charts. Investors are fickle ppl, the slightest news or bad news could have them jumping on the wagon or jumping ship.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

As far as being flamed online, you brought that on yourself. You come in here to complain about a new player, insult him, and then blame it on something which probably wasn't the case (powerlevelling). And then you start to insult people who disagree with you. If I didn't think you were serious, I'd say you'd be trolling.

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You honestly believe.

He attained level 50 in a week by not PLing? You are either purposely being dense or are just so empty handed with justification because you know PLing is wrong yet don't want to admit the problems it causes. Like such. Because you do not like to put the work in and don't want others to think ill of people who boost to the finish.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

You honestly believe.

He attained level 50 in a week by not PLing? You are either purposely being dense or are just so empty handed with justification because you know PLing is wrong yet don't want to admit the problems it causes. Like such. Because you do not like to put the work in and don't want others to think ill of people who boost to the finish.

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In a party, or with a constant partner, it is entirely possible to grind to 50 in a week. The problem is that finding stable parties that can play all the time is impossible, so ppl just PL instead. Think about it, how long does it take to go from 40-50 in a party? 2 days tops..you could actually do it in one day if you played like 8-10 hours non-stop.

40-50 is the same amount of xp as 1-40. So if you do the math, it is very possible to go from 1-50 in 4 to 5 days in an xp party that played 8-10 hours non-stop. A week is 7 days, so it is more than possible to lvl to cap in a week without PLing. Course your chances of having a party all the time are 0 unless you play with friends on a daily basis (or with your spouse).

This thread is so full of red herrings and incomprehensible assumptions - even namecalling and complete digressions...whomever said that if they didn't think people were serious, they would think this is a trolling pretty much sums up this entire thread Rijn. So you didn't miss any thing by not reading more than the OP.^^

Bottom line is PLing doesnt make you suck. Not knowing the strategy does.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

You honestly believe.

He attained level 50 in a week by not PLing? You are either purposely being dense or are just so empty handed with justification because you know PLing is wrong yet don't want to admit the problems it causes. Like such. Because you do not like to put the work in and don't want others to think ill of people who boost to the finish.

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I didn't say that he didn't powerlevel. I did say that his lack of knowledge wouldn't be because of powerlevelling. Whether he did or did not powerlevel is immaterial.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

I didn't say that he didn't powerlevel. I did say that his lack of knowledge wouldn't be because of powerlevelling. Whether he did or did not powerlevel is immaterial.

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http://www.splitreason.com/Product_I...3379837-xl.jpg

Is there a disconnect between logic, reason, and FFXIV in your head?

=Player is inexperienced and bad=
=Player is less then a week old=
=Player was PL'd till 50=
=Player never had to play his class since someone got him heaps of EXP while he sat there playing Pokemon Red=
=BUT HE ISN'T BAD BECAUSE HE WAS PL'D! HE JUST DIDN'T WANT TO LEARN HARD ENOUGH!=

Saying that people should just magically learn how to play their job at cap when all they have left to fiddle with is End Game is like saying we should just gives cars to every 13 year old on their birthday.


"If he REALLY wants to be good he'll learn how to drive. He doesn't need some time to learn what the rules of the road are. How to properly place his feet. To judge distance and speed. Growing up is boring and he has a party to get to next week and he HAVE to be 16! He can't wait besides growing up is boring and it doesn't really teach you anything you can't learn at the end anyways."

Sure they'll learn but not before a great deal of damage has been done and in the end even if they DO figure it out they would have a better grasp if they began with fundamentals. Not to mention it would separate the good from the bad at least partly. A bad but determined player can cap out but more likely then not he'll stall at some point because PT's keep kicking him for being incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

http://www.splitreason.com/Product_I...3379837-xl.jpg

Is there a disconnect between logic, reason, and FFXIV in your head?

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Ooooh, interesting use of jpg, and the insult isn't half bad. More "your mom" references and perhaps a little more swearing, and this troll effort would be scored higher. I give it a 6 out of 10.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

=Player is inexperienced and bad=
=Player is less then a week old=
=Player was PL'd till 50=
=Player never had to play his class since someone got him heaps of EXP while he sat there playing Pokemon Red=
=BUT HE ISN'T BAD BECAUSE HE WAS PL'D! HE JUST DIDN'T WANT TO LEARN HARD ENOUGH!=

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And you keep forgetting that there are some things that you don't learn just by playing a class until endgame. The proper use of Esuna and Presence of Mind are some of those things. As I said before, whether or not he was powerlevelled is immaterial, as these things one doesn't learn UNTIL one goes into endgame.

Honestly, I don't think you take in consideration that the Moogle fight is nothing like levelling in a party, or in a leve.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Saying that people should just magically learn how to play their job at cap when all they have left to fiddle with is End Game is like saying we should just gives cars to every 13 year old on their birthday.


"If he REALLY wants to be good he'll learn how to drive. He doesn't need some time to learn what the rules of the road are. How to properly place his feet. To judge distance and speed. Growing up is boring and he has a party to get to next week and he HAVE to be 16! He can't wait besides growing up is boring and it doesn't really teach you anything you can't learn at the end anyways."

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Bad analogy is bad. There are some things you don't learn until after you grow up and take some responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Sure they'll learn but not before a great deal of damage has been done and in the end even if they DO figure it out they would have a better grasp if they began with fundamentals. Not to mention it would separate the good from the bad at least partly. A bad but determined player can cap out but more likely then not he'll stall at some point because PT's keep kicking him for being incompetent.

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See, here's the thing. You know nothing about this guy. You know nothing of what's he played, or even how he levelled, and yet you keep making these general assertions. For as far as you know, this could have been this guy's first MMO, and he saw his friends playing FFXIV and went, "Oh wow, that looks cool.", and goes out to buy the game. He convinces his friends to get him up to 50 ('cause that's when the real fun starts), as well as get him WHM.

You say it's powerlevelling when in fact, it can't be because WHM didn't come out till just this recent patch, and I can say with certainty that the need for Esuna would never come up even if he levelled using leves or the old fashioned party grind.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

http://www.splitreason.com/Product_I...3379837-xl.jpg

Is there a disconnect between logic, reason, and FFXIV in your head?

=Player is inexperienced and bad=
=Player is less then a week old=
=Player was PL'd till 50=
=Player never had to play his class since someone got him heaps of EXP while he sat there playing Pokemon Red=
=BUT HE ISN'T BAD BECAUSE HE WAS PL'D! HE JUST DIDN'T WANT TO LEARN HARD ENOUGH!=

Saying that people should just magically learn how to play their job at cap when all they have left to fiddle with is End Game is like saying we should just gives cars to every 13 year old on their birthday.


"If he REALLY wants to be good he'll learn how to drive. He doesn't need some time to learn what the rules of the road are. How to properly place his feet. To judge distance and speed. Growing up is boring and he has a party to get to next week and he HAVE to be 16! He can't wait besides growing up is boring and it doesn't really teach you anything you can't learn at the end anyways."

Sure they'll learn but not before a great deal of damage has been done and in the end even if they DO figure it out they would have a better grasp if they began with fundamentals. Not to mention it would separate the good from the bad at least partly. A bad but determined player can cap out but more likely then not he'll stall at some point because PT's keep kicking him for being incompetent.

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People get PLed to 50? Here I thought they could only really get PLed to about 40, and then actually had to be a part of grind parties to 50.

Not everyone has the same base understandign of FF games, XI or XIV. PLign can decrease normal curved learning.

However others who help a person learn will improve the community and other, hopefully they can take advice as long as it is given withotu sarcasm. I know alot of self proclaimed elites that screw up just as much in situations.

PLing should only be possible till about level 30. PL to 50 ist just plain stupid

Just this morning I got my first Natalan wolves party. I went from 43 - 50 in ~ 3 hours. I think THAT is powerleveling lol...

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Originally Posted by Wincy

Just this morning I got my first Natalan wolves party. I went from 43 - 50 in ~ 3 hours. I think THAT is powerleveling lol...

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That is the fault with everyone's "Well I only PL to 40" argument. It takes, such as in your case, a DAY to doing that last gap. You don't have the time to learn anything.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

That is the fault with everyone's "Well I only PL to 40" argument. It takes, such as in your case, a DAY to doing that last gap. You don't have the time to learn anything.

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You're implying that you learn valuable experience that applies to endgame scenarios from an exp grind party. Stop doing that. It's wrong lol.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

That is the fault with everyone's "Well I only PL to 40" argument. It takes, such as in your case, a DAY to doing that last gap. You don't have the time to learn anything.

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What is wrong with learning your job in the end game, especially with how dramatically different it is from level grinding. I believe you should work at progressing you character (aka im against PL), however when grinding does nothing but add stat points and a new weapon whats the point. I would love to see dynamic content that makes leveling worthwhile to learning your role for end game as it stand now leveling is just a boring road block.

Even FF11 (no matter the complaint on grinding) had more relevant leveling mechanics towards end game.

In XI when a bad player got to 75 it meant something. He either bought his character or got PLed or *something*. In XIV getting 50 and being bad at it is the norm. No exp loss, mobs die in two seconds. Its impossible NOT to go anywhere but up.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

In XI when a bad player got to 75 it meant something. He either bought his character or got PLed or *something*. In XIV getting 50 and being bad at it is the norm. No exp loss, mobs die in two seconds. Its impossible NOT to go anywhere but up.

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Just as a side note in XI you also had to prove your metal vs Maat before you could attain 75. something that could be beneficial in eliminating much of the guesswork.

I would like to see PLing stop.

But I'm not going to argue about good, bad or commited players.

My arguement is enjoyment.

You see, I'm a role-player from Balmung (haters gunna hate). So I have other reasons to play. To keep me hooked on the game. Without RP, I would not still be here. Why?

I've gotten a class up to level 50. I can do most end-game content. When that's all finished, and every other class reaches 50 with full AF gear, ifrit and moogle weapons etc... then what? What would there be left to do? For non-RPers, very little. The longer levelling takes, the longer a player would stay with the game, as long as it doesn't get too tedious.

As well as that, this is what PLing does:

- Makes players stay for a shorter period = less money for SE

- Annoys those who havn't PLed

- Spoils public parties

- Gives people less reason to do side-quests and storyline quests, so they don't enjoy the story as much, and miss out on the things that break up the monotony of grinding leves.

It harms the PLed players just as much as anyone else, even if they don't realise that.

I've been PLed twice. But only because the rest of my online linkshell was doing it, and I didn't want to be left out and sat away from my friends. I did not enjoy PLing, and it skipped about 10 levels in total for my Lancer, meaning I missed being able to do quests within those level spaces and still get a decent reward without having to use a completely different class. It was also incredibly boring to stand there, doing nothing and I wanted to drag everyone away to do something more fun, but they wouldn't.

So... what's my problem with PLing? You ask. Why complain, and why not just ignore it and let the other PLers carry on?

Simple. Because all my LS is still doing it. I can't go and level up the normal way in parties, because they're all PLing instead, which I don't want to do. And I don't want to find a party of strangers, either, because that's less fun than levelling with friends.

It doesn't just damage end-game parties in ways previously mentioned by other posters, it damages the enjoyment of other players who want to level up the way that should be done.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

That is the fault with everyone's "Well I only PL to 40" argument. It takes, such as in your case, a DAY to doing that last gap. You don't have the time to learn anything.

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If it takes you longer then that to learn the basics of your class, then you're pretty much hopeless anyway.

This thread makes the fundamental mistake of assuming EXP PTs in FFXIV would ever require you to know what Esuna is, or how to use it.

Unfortunately, even if you don't PL, PTing as far as I can tell in FFXIV is as mindless as it was in post ToAU FFXI, basically, completely mindless.

I'm glad PLing exists, though I don't often do it myself, when I'm leveling a second or third job I will throw slow bits if I get sick of partying and leveing, because unfortunately, that content is not very interesting the second or third time through. Not that it was mind-blowing in FFXI, but pre-ToAU there was usually enough coordination involved to keep things interesting.

In FFXIV though, the average status effect doesn't last very long, and most enemies don't have very painful effects, especially not ones you exp on. The worst is sleep, and you don't need esuna to wake someone up.

There are many reasons implicit in the comments against the pl, not all objective and reasoned. I don't buy the argument that leveling with PL make you a noob. I'm not going to defend that behavior neither, but one thing must be pointed: PL doesn't create noobs. There are a lot out there and i'm sure most of them doesn't even know about the PL thing.
Noobism is an attitude, it goes with the personality, same way as in life there are and always will be ignorants and there is people eager of knowledge.

I used to have 6 75's in FFXI. Ones i've used more and others less. Ones were leveled in barely one month while others took me a year and half. Obviously, your knowledge and skills with a job, like anything in life, improves with experience and practice... but also with effort and the amount of interest you put on it.
There were people in XI who took the long and tedious way of leveling a job and played it for years and still playing and behaving like noobs. In fact the word "noob" itself differs from "newbie" in that point.

The job that took me year and half (my 1st as you can guess) was the Dark Knight. I played that job for thousands of hours (Leveling, Genkai, Main Sceneario, RoZ, CoP, farming, camping, and finally end game). I got to know every minor detail of DRK, got obsessed parsing and improving dps and gear-swap macros for every single spell or weaponskill. That's good.

But at some point, a random group of ppl i was playing with, needed a RDM/DRK. All 6 RDM's in that group were too lazy to level DRK to 37 so i used to get my RDM1 and leveled it to 75 in near a month. Just a few weeks after that i was leading Stun at khimaira, cerberus or tiamat, mostly in Tank's party so you can figure out.

The happy ending of this history is that i loved RDM and started playing it as my main job. If you read this, Mr-P, we want Delamund to bring us Red Mage back!

Well, my point is not that I rock.. is that you can complain about PL for many reasons.. Because lowers the challenge, or because you leveled painfully through leves from release and it bothers you that others have this shortcurt.. all that is fine. But please, don't put the noob's excuse, is self-deceptive.