5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I think coincounter is a good change.

Those attacks really only screwed over melee DPS, and a 360 instant kill that isn't telegraphed is just dumb. Any mechanic that gives you no opportunity to react without prior knowledge, and basically instant kills you is BS. It isn't some grand learning experience for new players; it's just an annoying unavoidable death to a mechanic they're not likely to see in any future content.

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Melee DPS are the ones who have total control over whether they live or die. How the heck does it "screw over melee DPS" when you can literally just press your stun button in-between GCDs? Don't blame the game for the player's incompetence.

Excess mobs at the start that teaches you something you'll never need to know again until optional content is a-okay. But Coincounter was too hard.

Excuse me while I make some mental adjustments:
http://www.primusdatabase.com/images/7/73/Headdesk.gif

There are a lot of really great QoL changes here. The search bar in the Orchestrion and the buff for invuln after being resurrected stand out as the best ones.

Now we just need a search bar for Triple Triad cards--it seems silly that we don't have one yet given how many damn cards there are.

Is pudding flesh good for anything other than crafting the pudding furniture items?

It's used in Void Glue (you see this in airship and sub parts still) and some low level alc stuff. It has historically been a pain to get since there is no reliable way to farm mobs for it, and you just have to send your retainers out for what you need. It seems odd to change it at such a late date, but it is nice to have another way to get something that really shouldn't be difficult to get at all.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Melee DPS are the ones who have total control over whether they live or die. How the heck does it "screw over melee DPS" when you can literally just press your stun button in-between GCDs? Don't blame the game for the player's incompetence.

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It isn't a telegraphed attack, so how does a new player know which attack they need to use their stun on? It screws melee DPS because it's a 360 degree instant kill that does nothing to inform melee DPS that it's a 360 degree instant kill.

Pretend an attack that instant killed everyone on the left side of the stage gave absolutely no visual indication that it was going to kill everyone on the left side of the stage. No markers; no "Left side xxxx" in the name of the attack; no conceivable way to know what's coming; just bam... everyone on the left is dead. Wouldn't that be a stupid, lazily designed, cheesy mechanic that exists solely to land a cheap death on new players?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It isn't a telegraphed attack, so how does a new player know which attack they need to use their stun on? It screws melee DPS because it's a 360 degree instant kill that does nothing to inform melee DPS that it's a 360 degree instant kill.

Pretend an attack that instant killed everyone on the left side of the stage gave absolutely no visual indication that it was going to kill everyone on the left side of the stage. No markers; no "Left side xxxx" in the name of the attack; no conceivable way to know what's coming; just bam... everyone on the left is dead. Wouldn't that be a stupid, lazily designed, cheesy mechanic that exists solely to land a cheap death on new players?

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Long castbar usually indicates a bad thing is about to happen.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Long castbar usually indicates a bad thing is about to happen.

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*stares nervously at Zantetsuken*

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Long castbar usually indicates a bad thing is about to happen.

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Oh, so long castbar is the games telegraph for a 360 degree 1 hit kill AoE that's avoidable if you run a specific distance from the boss? My mistake then; I'll remember that the next time I see a long castbar on anything.

Attacks need telegraphs if you're required to avoid them to survive. A long cast bar doesn't tell you anything about what you need to do.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Oh, so long castbar is the games telegraph for a 360 degree 1 hit kill AoE that's avoidable if you run a specific distance from the boss? My mistake then; I'll remember that the next time I see a long castbar on anything.

Attacks need telegraphs if you're required to avoid them to survive. A long cast bar doesn't tell you anything about what you need to do.

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I mean a lot of attacks in this game you learn to avoid by dying to it, sure it may suck the first time to die but it's just part of the game

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I mean a lot of attacks in this game you learn to avoid by dying to it, sure it may suck the first time to die but it's just part of the game

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Most attacks in this game that are direct 1-hit kills are telegraphed in some way; a mechanic that kills you outright without providing some means of reading it and reacting is garbage.

I get the feeling that people who play MMO's a lot don't get a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat.

Regardless, I like the fact that SE is recognizing and addressing some of the shoddy designs in their old content. The coincounter change is a good one.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Most attacks in this game that are direct 1-hit kills are telegraphed in some way; a mechanic that kills you outright without providing some means of reading and reacting is garbage.

I get the feeling that a lot of people who play MMO's a lot don't get a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat.

Regardless, I like the fact that SE is recognizing and addressing some of the shoddy designs in their old content. The coincounter change was a good one.

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I mean it has a name for the attack, sure it's not telegraphed by a huge glowing orange indicator, but attacks that you can only dodge by reading its name exist in the game. (Shiva's axe/scythe kick and starboard/larboard from Omega come to mind among other things, as well as ram's/dragon's voice)

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I mean it has a name for the attack, sure it's not telegraphed by a huge glowing orange indicator, but attacks that you can only dodge by reading its name exist in the game. (Shiva's axe/scythe kick and starboard/larboard from Omega come to mind among other things, as well as ram's/dragon's voice)

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I don't believe any of those are 1 hit kills, but this is what I mean when I say I don't think people who play MMO's have a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat. Finding other examples of poorly designed combat mechanics in this MMO doesn't make them less poorly designed.

If there are other instances in this game of completely untelegraphed 1 hit kills then they I wouldn't be opposed to them being changed as well. It's just lazy crap design that honestly shouldn't even be in MMO's, regardless of how low the bar is currently set for MMO gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Most attacks in this game that are direct 1-hit kills are telegraphed in some way; a mechanic that kills you outright without providing some means of reading it and reacting is garbage.

I get the feeling that people who play MMO's a lot don't get a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat.

Regardless, I like the fact that SE is recognizing and addressing some of the shoddy designs in their old content. The coincounter change is a good one.

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While I agree the one shot aspect was bad.. the learning to read castbars for information lesson was a good one. Especially since there are lots of other cyclopean model based enemies that repeat it. Swipe = get away from front, Swing = Get away. Amnesis has a probably a better implementation of the same mechanic with less punishment.. but the lesson was important for game knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Oh, so long castbar is the games telegraph for a 360 degree 1 hit kill AoE that's avoidable if you run a specific distance from the boss? My mistake then; I'll remember that the next time I see a long castbar on anything.

Attacks need telegraphs if you're required to avoid them to survive. A long cast bar doesn't tell you anything about what you need to do.

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Both 10-tonze Swipe and 100-tonze Swing are telegraphed (Swipe has it lifting its club up one handed during the cast while Swing has it grasped in both hands during the cast) and both are repeats of mechanics that a player was expected to have encountered in the Coerthus Central Highlands FATE The Eyes Have It. In the FATE the Cyclops uses 3 cast attacks: 10-tonze Swipe (orange cone AoE), 10-tonze Swing (orange circle AoE) and 100-tonze Swing (no orange circle AoE indicator longer cast time by same AoE as the 10-tonze version). In the FATE you were supposed to connect the terms Swipe with Cone AoE, Swing with Circle AoE and 100-tonze with the powered up version. Later appearances of Cyclops and Minotaur enemies have maintained and expanded upon the mechanics introduced in The Eyes Have It fight.

The biggest problem with Coincounter was that The Eyes Have It stopped being done regularly after 3.1 released and so players first encounter with a Cyclops/Minotaur was with the advanced version(s) instead of the introductory version. These changes are allowing Coincounter function as the introductory Cyclops/Minotaur it has become.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Both 10-tonze Swipe and 100-tonze Swing are telegraphed (Swipe has it lifting its club up one handed during the cast while Swing has it grasped in both hands during the cast) and both are repeats of mechanics that a player was expected to have encountered in the Coerthus Central Highlands FATE The Eyes Have It. In the FATE the Cyclops uses 3 cast attacks: 10-tonze Swipe (orange cone AoE), 10-tonze Swing (orange circle AoE) and 100-tonze Swing (no orange circle AoE indicator longer cast time by same AoE as the 10-tonze version). In the FATE you were supposed to connect the terms Swipe with Cone AoE, Swing with Circle AoE and 100-tonze with the powered up version. Later appearances of Cyclops and Minotaur enemies have maintained and expanded upon the mechanics introduced in The Eyes Have It fight.

The biggest problem with Coincounter was that The Eyes Have It stopped being done regularly after 3.1 released and so players first encounter with a Cyclops/Minotaur was with the advanced version(s) instead of the introductory version. These changes are allowing Coincounter function as the introductory Cyclops/Minotaur it has become.

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Umm, sorry but no. It being the same as some completely unrelated FATE that most new players would never encounter, because who the hell does FATES, doesn't count as a telegraph. If that mechanic appeared in a story or tutorial instance that was mandatory prior to going into AV then you'd have a point, but as it stands Coincounters attack is just a blindside one hit kill, which is crap design. For most people AV will be their first encounter with that mechanic; and it being a 1-hit kill prevents any learning and adjusting.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

While I agree the one shot aspect was bad.. the learning to read castbars for information lesson was a good one. Especially since there are lots of other cyclopean model based enemies that repeat it. Swipe = get away from front, Swing = Get away. Amnesis has a probably a better implementation of the same mechanic with less punishment.. but the lesson was important for game knowledge.

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I don't really buy that Coincounter was an important learning tool for some oh so common mechanic that's going to haunt new players going forward if they don't get familiar fast. IF it is, though, I wouldn't be opposed to simply lowering the damage so you survive it. The knockback and near death damage should be enough to connect the name with the bad you need to avoid. An untelegraphed 1 hit kill will always be bad design, though.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't believe any of those are 1 hit kills, but this is what I mean when I say I don't think people who play MMO's have a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat. Finding other examples of poorly designed combat mechanics in this MMO doesn't make them less poorly designed.

If there are other instances in this game of completely untelegraphed 1 hit kills then they I wouldn't be opposed to them being changed as well. It's just lazy crap design that honestly shouldn't even be in MMO's, regardless of how low the bar is currently set for MMO gameplay.

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Just because you don't like an aspect of combat doesn't mean it's poorly designed. Sure there are MMOs and games with combat systems that are leagues above FFXIV and its tab-targeting, but this game does pretty well at putting some variety into what limited options the combat has.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Just because you don't like an aspect of combat doesn't mean it's poorly designed. Sure there are MMOs and games with combat systems that are leagues above FFXIV and its tab-targeting, but this game does pretty well at putting some variety into what limited options the combat has.

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I'm not saying it's poorly designed because I don't like it. It's poorly designed because it's missing a key element that any attack needs, which is the ability to react and/or adjust. If it had a telegraph you could react... If it didn't kill you in 1 hit you could adjust. It's a pretty basic tenet that's used in pretty much any game with gameplay that's worth a damn. I view missing the boat on something that basic as being a little embarrassing, even for an MMO.

I simply applaud SE for recognizing it and doing something about it at least. And of course I'm not entirely surprised that a lot of the reactions to the change are "OH NOEZ!! HOW DARE U TRY TO FIX A DESIGN FAILURE IN AN OLD FIGHT! WE NEED THAT MECHANIC TO BE TRASH FOR SOME REASON!"

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Umm, sorry but no. It being the same as some completely unrelated FATE that most new players would never encounter, because who the hell does FATES, doesn't count as a telegraph. If that mechanic appeared in a story or tutorial instance that was mandatory prior to going into AV then you'd have a point, but as it stands Coincounters attack is just crap design. For most people AV will be their first encounter with that mechanic; and it being a 1-hit kill prevents any learning and adjusting.

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During ARR it was hard to miss The Eyes Have It. It was just off the path when traveling to Whitebrim for the MSQ and Coerthus Central Highlands was one of the FATE grinding hot spots (which was the primary way to level during 2.X). AV was a lot harder to find in that it was an optional dungeon that required taking a detour to unlock it and was only required once you were trying to become a second lieutenant in your grand company.

It was very reasonable to expect knowledge of the FATE when entering AV during 2.X. Only afterwards were players often missing out on expected knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

During ARR it was hard to miss The Eyes Have It. It was just off the path when traveling to Whitebrim for the MSQ and Coerthus Central Highlands was one of the FATE grinding hot spots (which was the primary way to level during 2.X). AV was a lot harder to find in that it was an optional dungeon that required taking a detour to unlock it and was only required once you were trying to become a second lieutenant in your grand company.

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New players are far more likely to join a GC, which is something that's introduced in the story, than they are to stop and do any random FATES. FATES are pretty much obsolete at this point; they don't count as tutorials.

Even if that FATE might have been an expected tutorial in 2.x that's certainly not true now, so there's no reason for Coincounter to remain as he was.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

It's used in Void Glue (you see this in airship and sub parts still) and some low level alc stuff. It has historically been a pain to get since there is no reliable way to farm mobs for it, and you just have to send your retainers out for what you need. It seems odd to change it at such a late date, but it is nice to have another way to get something that really shouldn't be difficult to get at all.

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Also looks like it's used for a handful of Mythrite/Titanium weapons. A few of which I want to say are probably part of crafter class quests. Another good reason to not have them be so difficult to come by. But, the airship/sub parts probably remains a more consistent reason for making the flesh more readily available.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Oh, so long castbar is the games telegraph for a 360 degree 1 hit kill AoE that's avoidable if you run a specific distance from the boss? My mistake then; I'll remember that the next time I see a long castbar on anything.

Attacks need telegraphs if you're required to avoid them to survive. A long cast bar doesn't tell you anything about what you need to do.

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Here's a crazy thought but have you ever thought of, you know, asking about mechanics from your party? It's something that a massive MULTIPLAYER game is meant to encourage.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Here's a crazy thought but have you ever thought of, you know, asking about mechanics from your party? It's something that a massive MULTIPLAYER game is meant to encourage.

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Suggestions like this don't change the fact that it's a garbage mechanic. You could've also suggested I youtube the fight before even attempting AV. That would work, but it's not something a well designed mechanic would ever require.

I'll never quite understand why MMO's get a pass on crap that would get many games laughed out of their respective genres. Seriously, just let SE fix embarrassing stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

New players are far more likely to join a GC, which is something that's introduced in the story, than they are to stop and do any random FATES. FATES are pretty much obsolete at this point; they don't count as tutorials.

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I don't think you are reading what I have been writing. That is true now, but during 2.X FATEs were presented as a major form of content as players explored the open world and not everyone went for Second Lieutenant ASAP. The knowledge transfer between The Eyes Have It and AV was functional during 2.X but it doesn't function now. Coincounter was not bad design, but changes as the game has gone through 3 expansions have broken things.

I'm not surprised that they are changing things with the update.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I don't think you are reading what I have been writing. That is true now, but during 2.X FATEs were presented as a major form of content as players explored the open world and not everyone went for Second Lieutenant ASAP. The knowledge transfer between The Eyes Have It and AV was functional during 2.X but it doesn't function now. Coincounter was not bad design, but changes as the game has gone through 3 expansions have broken things.

I'm not surprised that they are changing things with the update.

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Yes, I kind of edited my post. What you're saying may have been true for 2.x, but it's certainly not true now. It is bad design the way things currently stand, and I am happy that SE recognized it and is fixing it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Suggestions like this don't change the fact that it's a garbage mechanic. You could've also suggested I youtube the fight before even attempting AV. That would work, but it's not something a well designed mechanic would ever require.

I'll never quite understand why MMO's get a pass on crap that would get many games laughed out of their respective genres. Seriously, just let SE fix embarrassing stuff like this.

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You do realize a pretty successful genre grew out of a game that had highly punishing mechanics that encouraged learning through trial and error and communicating with players outside the game right?

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Originally Posted by Roda

You do realize a pretty successful genre grew out of a game that had highly punishing mechanics that encouraged learning through trial and error and communicating with players outside the game right?

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None of those games in said genre had untelegraphed 1 hit kills. What made those games so good is how they were punishing but fair; every attack was telegraphed and avoidable on reaction, but the frame data and precise hit boxes required good reflexes. The community helps each other online because it's challenging, not because it's BS they couldn't possibly know how to avoid without getting help first.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Yes, I kind of edited my post. What you're saying may have been true for 2.x, but it's certainly not true now. It is bad design the way things currently stand, and I am happy that SE recognized it and is fixing it.

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You're trying to argue with someone who is agreeing with your point. It used to be an acceptable design choice, now it is not, so it's good that they're changing it.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Here's a crazy thought but have you ever thought of, you know, asking about mechanics from your party? It's something that a massive MULTIPLAYER game is meant to encourage.

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Playing on the Japanese servers, my impression is that Japanese players don't like to ask and/or don't like to point out others' mistakes. Mostly people stay silent during dungeons and, as far as I can tell, are left to work it out for themselves rather than discussing it.

People focusing on such a really small, inconsequential thing and debating it for pages and pages and pages...

I mean seriously people, you're better than this.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Suggestions like this don't change the fact that it's a garbage mechanic. You could've also suggested I youtube the fight before even attempting AV. That would work, but it's not something a well designed mechanic would ever require.

I'll never quite understand why MMO's get a pass on crap that would get many games laughed out of their respective genres. Seriously, just let SE fix embarrassing stuff like this.

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Because it's easily mitigated by communication, guides, and playing with something that isn't your eyelids. If you choose to not do any, I don't know what to tell you.

I can't believe all this vitriol about coincounter
he does four things all with very long windups and telegraphed stances.
And if your using half decent gear they aren't one-shot kills. That only happens to the people using level 40- white gear from quests

Every MMO's top content doesn't use many telegraphs and will even put in telegraphs that are lies just to make sure the players are paying attention. Even the 24-man raids have un-telegraphed stuff and ambiguous markers you need to learn from trial and error and those are heavily played all the time and usually the most well liked content in the entire game

If you can't learn four extremely simple things just from observation not sure "bad design" is the issue

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Originally Posted by Nihility

And if your using half decent gear they aren't one-shot kills. That only happens to the people using level 40- white gear from quests

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I've never seen anyone other than tanks survive a hit from 100 tonz swing. I don't think that's even possible for DPS/Healer, even in full health and wearing the most powerful equipment possible.

This thread makes me laugh because AV is the most abandoned duty in the game. Since I've joined back in 3.4, I can't count the amount of times people bailed on it. Infamously tanks and healers mostly. Groups that kept wiping in first room and bailed. Groups that wiped and bailed at first boss.

And y'all here, hotly "debating" Coincounter. Coincounter of all things from AV. Hahahahaha!

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

People focusing on such a really small, inconsequential thing and debating it for pages and pages and pages...

I mean seriously people, you're better than this.

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Thread title needs updated to "Coincounter debate" and someone can make a new patch notes thread for discussing patch notes.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

This thread makes me laugh because AV is the most abandoned duty in the game. Since I've joined back in 3.4, I can't count the amount of times people bailed on it. Infamously tanks and healers mostly. Groups that kept wiping in first room and bailed. Groups that wiped and bailed at first boss.

And y'all here, hotly "debating" Coincounter. Coincounter of all things from AV. Hahahahaha!

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That was kind of because the patch notes announced that they were changing him specifically. If they had mentioned any other boss being altered we would likely be talking about that boss.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Thread title needs updated to "Coincounter debate" and someone can make a new patch notes thread for discussing patch notes.

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I created the thread and was thinking the same thing. You read my mind. Just boggles my mind with all the new stuff in the patch notes this has become such a big topic of discussion. I suppose if they simply nerfed the swing they'd be arguing about how they could do that as well.

Going to chill on the day off tomorrow and have fun with the new content. I'm sure at some point AV will be on my to do list.

Comes back to see if page 5 of the thread is about something else... no.. we are still at an AoE marker... ok then...
Will check in 5 more pages

All they need to do is add a guildhest where you fight a cyclops with AoE indicator. And you need to clear this guildhest to queue for Aurum Vale.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

All they need to do is add a guildhest where you fight a cyclops with AoE indicator. And you need to clear this guildhest to queue for Aurum Vale.

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True, guildhests should have been the tutorials to group content. Sadly, the battle content team have all but abandoned guildhests (due to lack of player interest).

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Comes back to see if page 5 of the thread is about something else... no.. we are still at an AoE marker... ok then...
Will check in 5 more pages

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Nah, I mean some, but mostly meta discussion like this.