Paladin Updates

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Originally Posted by Rydin

the patch doesn't make PLD what it should be... but if you just love it... and want to play it... nothing will stop you... PLD can tank just fine... so play what you like



I just saw Mog do a speed run with a PLD AND a WAR in the entire run

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OMG :O Doctor Mog did it with a War and Paladin!! I never said it couldn't be done. But war does a better job tanking and puts out more dps. This isn't rocket science...Pld is suppose to be the better tank and its clearly not.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws....nal/406903.jpg


This was a 12 minute run i belive, it was one of our avg runs soo 12-13 mins on my GLD, my PLD parses roughly 10k less damage on avg

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Is that primarily due to Divine Veil? Did you pop off the 15 min (2hr in ffxi terms) ability?

I didn't use my 15 min. ability on PLD and my parse showed that Gladiator took less damage. But maybe it was screwy... I was trying to find a justification to use PLD over GLD.. I'll have to give it another go tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Divine Veil gives you 20... and I was just estimating with Aegis Boon, protect and the mages being up on their stoneskin game

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I must have missed something. Where does it say Divine Veil renders you immune to physical damage for 20 seconds? It merely says it "blocks".

While I understand the wording could imply "It negates physical damage taken from the front", I understood it as "100% Shield Block".

Not trying to argue or anything, but we already have Hallowed Ground and even that doesn't last 20 seconds. Plus "Block" generally refers to a shield, no?

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws....nal/406903.jpg


This was a 12 minute run i belive, it was one of our avg runs soo 12-13 mins on my GLD, my PLD parses roughly 10k less damage on avg

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Would love to see how it compares to a warrior parser! There's a lot of info in the thread that makes me a bit suspicious of the status quo.

You gotta wait for new parses after this update Rayna, Divine Veil should make a noticable difference in damage mitigation.

Would love to see how it compares to a warrior parser! There's a lot of info in the thread that makes me a bit suspicious of the status quo.


well since each player brings his/her unique ability to the fight , give me a week to draw fair conclusive results and I will gladly post em

Oh great so we can tank ifrit now! HELL YEAH!!

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Would love to see how it compares to a warrior parser! There's a lot of info in the thread that makes me a bit suspicious of the status quo.

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I did ifrit this morning and we had war tank and all i know is that when both whms had cracks following them war almost died every time. Ifrit mauled him down in like 5 secs lol.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

If you can't do your job on Pld then you fail compared to youtube vid posters.... this should make you sad if you're so awesome. lol Lots of people run one whm for these situations, Mistress is almost all 1 whm, 1 war, 6 mnk burn now... Ant takes a couple good blm/thms not an extra whm, i do concede that chimera can be pretty tricky just because of the various mechanics in his(or her, idk chimera gender!) fight leading to more errors that can occur.

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Please argue reasonable...yeah 1 WHM does work with a WAr and Meele Burns(cause Miser will be down before the first add phase).

This is not working with a PLD tank, cause he won't hold hate over WAR...what are you even arguing about, you talk about how PLD does the job just as well as WAR with 1 WHM and you can take another DD over the 2nd WHM which will make up for the DMG loss of a WAR tank, then in your next post you clearly disagree on your own argument with your Meele burn setup, which doesn't work with a PLD, cause he can't hold hate...

Get your facts straight before even trying to get on my back. Your 1 WHM setups only work with a WAR tank, which I clearly stated doesn't work with a PLD, while you argue it would, but then contradict yourself 5min later.

Try to argue logical and reasonable, before jumping back and forth between "this works, that works" when only one version of it does work, either PLD + 2 WHM, or WAR + 1 WHM.

If you got no clue what you're talking about, just stop talking. PLD hate is crap compared to WAR, so Meele/Mage Burn PTs do not work with a PLD tank, simple as that and all your arguments are contradicting themselves over and over.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I did ifrit this morning and we had war tank and all i know is that when both whms had cracks following them war almost died every time. Ifrit mauled him down in like 5 secs lol.

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He didn't have Aegis Boon and Holy Succor.


:cool:

I havent gotten the opertunity to fight the boss in cutters cry , but from what i understand its a strait tank and spank, with no magical attack to be warnted a threat. If i do this well against Ifrit can only hope that fight is a joke, but we will see.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Please argue reasonable...yeah 1 WHM does work with a WAr and Meele Burns(cause Miser will be down before the first add phase).

This is not working with a PLD tank, cause he won't hold hate over WAR...what are you even arguing about, you talk about how PLD does the job just as well as WAR with 1 WHM and you can take another DD over the 2nd WHM which will make up for the DMG loss of a WAR tank, then in your next post you clearly disagree on your own argument with your Meele burn setup, which doesn't work with a PLD, cause he can't hold hate...

Get your facts straight before even trying to get on my back. Your 1 WHM setups only work with a WAR tank, which I clearly stated doesn't work with a PLD, while you argue it would, but then contradict yourself 5min later.

Try to argue logical and reasonable, before jumping back and forth between "this works, that works" when only one version of it does work, either PLD + 2 WHM, or WAR + 1 WHM.

If you got no clue what you're talking about, just stop talking. PLD hate is crap compared to WAR, so Meele/Mage Burn PTs do not work with a PLD tank, simple as that and all your arguments are contradicting themselves over and over.

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lol , what?!, I can soo take Ifrit with a single WHM in party and keep hate easly, much less duel whm? as far as the other bosses... what other bosses? to my knowledge Ifrit is still the hardest one.

NO ONE CARES ABOUT IFRIT! Paladin sucks at new content ffs lol

As I was trying to tell him in another thread, Ifrit can be tanked by a mage. CNJ or THM, take your pick really. PLD isn't really anything special right now :/

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Please argue reasonable...yeah 1 WHM does work with a WAr and Meele Burns(cause Miser will be down before the first add phase).

This is not working with a PLD tank, cause he won't hold hate over WAR...what are you even arguing about, you talk about how PLD does the job just as well as WAR with 1 WHM and you can take another DD over the 2nd WHM which will make up for the DMG loss of a WAR tank, then in your next post you clearly disagree on your own argument with your Meele burn setup, which doesn't work with a PLD, cause he can't hold hate...

Get your facts straight before even trying to get on my back. Your 1 WHM setups only work with a WAR tank, which I clearly stated doesn't work with a PLD, while you argue it would, but then contradict yourself 5min later.

Try to argue logical and reasonable, before jumping back and forth between "this works, that works" when only one version of it does work, either PLD + 2 WHM, or WAR + 1 WHM.

If you got no clue what you're talking about, just stop talking. PLD hate is crap compared to WAR, so Meele/Mage Burn PTs do not work with a PLD tank, simple as that and all your arguments are contradicting themselves over and over.

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You should take your own advice and quit being stupid and/or butthurt that you can't tank on Pld. I pointed out the Mistress burn because that's the common set up that everyone uses and will recognize, you can do the same with a Pld, most likely more easily as the warrior doesn't add much dmg to the fight, its all about the mnks. Mnks in melee range = huge rampart hate = fight over with still just one mage. Also, read some, I'm not the only one who thinks you're spoutin some bullcrap about Pld being unable to tank.

To sum up, again, i'm sorry you fail at your favorite job that you'd play if you weren't terrible at it.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Healing probably. A PLD can take less dmg and self-heal as long as they bring ethers. A WAR cannot.

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Rampage, Bloobath, and crit gear would like to have a word with you.

Sounds like biast trolling, back it up and I will agree, but till then, you project opions as facts, where at least i offer some sort of factual referance point to back my findinds. but to each their own, I realy dont care how YOU tank any of the Bosses. And further more if Ifrit is such a joke, why do experianced players still refer to him as the games hardest fight still?

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws....nal/406903.jpg

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Sounds like biast trolling, back it up and I will agree, but till then, you project opions as facts, where at least i offer some sort of factual referance point to back my findinds. but to each their own, I realy dont care how YOU tank any of the Bosses. And further more if Ifrit is such a joke, why do experianced players still refer to him as the games hardest fight still?

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws....nal/406903.jpg

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God one thing i want to note look at that horrible block rate. Why does pld have a shield again?

Who the hell called Ifrit the hardest fight?! That shit is so simple now lol.

They refer to Ifrit as the "hardest" content because everything else is relatively simple. No other battle has you pitted against server and/or client lag as your great enemy.

It's a comparative statement at best and experienced players would likely recognize it as only that.

ITT: one parse = facts.

The new fixes will hopefully help that(block rate), there are a lot of attacks a shield won't do much for, but just as many that it will, expect these numbers to be noticably higher tomorrow! Nap time, as a signature suggests ProTip: an 8 hour nap is just called sleeping.

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Originally Posted by Issachar

Rampage, Bloobath, and crit gear would like to have a word with you.

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I took that into account, but thats not as reliable as cure or the other heal skills a PLD has. When it comes to self-healing, i'd rather it not come down to luck and the amount of dmg you happen to do. It is awesome when it works but as far as self-sufficiency goes a WAR has almost none, except for the exception you just noted.

I want to see a really good PLD and a really good WAR to make comparisons. It sounds like most of these comparisons are based on bad PLDs. PLD sounds like it has a much higher learning curve than WAR, so its more likely to produce lackluster results through personal experience.

for Ifrit I can share my experience as healer. Currently I prefer WAR as tank because it has higher HP, so better buffer on damage. While actually PLD is not bad either, but PLD takes similar damage (because of elemental attack?).As someone said, if the healer(s) getting cracks on last phase, it will be serious danger on the WAR tank, this is when PLD is better on WAR coz the self sufficiency (except when they run out of MP lol)

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I took that into account, but thats not as reliable as cure or the other heal skills a PLD has. When it comes to self-healing, i'd rather it not come down to luck and the amount of dmg you happen to do. It is awesome when it works but as far as self-sufficiency goes a WAR has almost none, except for the exception you just noted.

I want to see a really good PLD and a really good WAR to make comparisons. It sounds like most of these comparisons are based on bad PLDs. PLD sounds like it has a much higher learning curve than WAR, so its more likely to produce lackluster results through personal experience.

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I never really played WAR until Chimera and it was much easier then PLD. Maybe I am a bad PLD but really my 1st time tanking chimera on WAR and I found it like 10000x easier then PLD. Something is wrong me thinks.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Please stop saying this... warrior tanks are preferred for the HP... not enmity....
Yes warrior does more damage...
but come on
Take coincounter as an example....
With AOE rampart (The biggest hate puller in the game) and war drum....
that alone makes up for the extra WAR damage....
And if that wasn't enough... PLD can spam Holy Succor and cure..... in which case you'd have to do more than 1k damage every 10 seconds consistently to build that much hate.....
Massive enmity abilities... massive healing and decent damage.... PLD pulls more hate....

WAR is the tank of choice because PLD just has 2 major problems...

1. HP... thats a big deal

2. A lot of PLD hate relies on healing... but then PLD gets abilities that mitigate damage
Protect + Stoneskin + Divine Veil + Aegis Boon and you can literally spend 45 seconds of every minute not taking physical damage. So you either ignore the abilities so you can heal and build hate... or use the abilities and hope there are enough people around you when you cast "Rampart" to generate the enmity needed
Its a design flaw... for sure

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You are making up numbers here. 45 secs of every minute? Divine Veil is forced Blocks, not 100% mitigated blocks. You could take 500dmg instead of 600 on a hit, it will just be blocked. To be sure we would have to wait for the servers going up and tests being made.

Enmity wise...Rampart, are you kidding me, biggest hate puller in the game?

I'll give you simple and straight facts for this.

PLD Hate Abilities:

Fast/Flat Blade Combo
Sentinel(raises Enmity generated by other actions)
Rampart
Provoke
Flash
Holy Succor(considering you actually heal yourself, not overheal)

That's it.

Now WAR:

Heavy Swing/Skull Sunder Combo(not to forget Steel Cyclone)
Provoke
Flash
Rampart(oh wait WAR has access to Rampart, the biggest hate puller in the game O.o)
Sentinel
Antagonize(same as Sentinel, raises enmity generated by other actions)
Collusion(gets you the hate of the next action performed by your target close to you, which on a Blindside Dragon Kick just kills PLD alone)

So....the only difference between WAR and PLD hate abilities is Holy Succor...awesome...

To even show you how much better WAR is I'll show you his other advantages...

WAR:

Second Wind(heal yourself for roughly 500HP), since no cast time you actually heal yourself everytime you need to be healed and get enmity for it
Vengeance(counter dmg done to you)
Featherfoot(guaranteed Evade)
Foresight(guaranteed Parry)

While PLD got:

Aegis Boon(guaranteed Block)
Hallowed Ground(15 sec 0 physical dmg)

I can clearly see the advantages of PLD over WAR...especially hate wise, since WAR has access to all PLD hate abilities, while PLD get's Provoke...awesome! JUST AWESOME! You opened my eyes, PLD is the tank for hate!

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Originally Posted by Aion

for Ifrit I can share my experience as healer. Currently I prefer WAR as tank because it has higher HP, so better buffer on damage. While actually PLD is not bad either, but PLD takes similar damage (because of elemental attack?).As someone said, if the healer(s) getting cracks on last phase, it will be serious danger on the WAR tank, this is when PLD is better on WAR coz the self sufficiency (except when they run out of MP lol)

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PLD's really need to start investing in mp regens lol. BRD songs could probably help too? Do ppl use that with PLD's?

Ifrit is a pretty good example where PLD vs WAR is not necessarily clear-cut. Elemental dmg makes def useless so you'd probably go with WAR due to more hp. In emergencies, as you said, PLD is preferable due to its abilities. Maybe PLD's should meld HP/block to their gear, taking their naturally buffed defense as is. Maybe they should meld healing potency too?

Ppl just gotta figure it out~ give PLD the right pieces, and the right player, and we'll see how it really compares lol.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

lol , what?!, I can soo take Ifrit with a single WHM in party and keep hate easly, much less duel whm? as far as the other bosses... what other bosses? to my knowledge Ifrit is still the hardest one.

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To quote another person. Who the fuck cares about Ifrit? He is not even nearly the hardest fight in the game, hell even Batraal is harder...of course PLD can tank Ifrit...

And to throw you a bone hre Peptaru. Of course PLD can tank Chimera, Coincounter, Princess and Miser as well...but WAR does it better. That's the whole point.

It all sums down to War does a better job so why the hell would you use Pld...Oh wait people enjoy been useless and play jobs that doesn't benefit the party at all.

wich is realy my only point, PLD is more survivable, and its that very surviavability that genertates constant, massive hate. I do not disagree that WAR can controll larger groups of mobss more efficiently but WAR (fact) dosent have the surviavablity as PLD, Not saying it cant be done, just saying compairing the two is like compairing apples and oranges. Each has its time to shine , but I am tired and this is getting repetative. in one week or soo I will post more parses of both jobs same fights and same avg time , will do multiple boss fights , I know for the fan boys and trolls it will make no differance, but for those who truly want to KNOW what jobs do great in wich positions , I am sure you will apreciate the info. till then :)

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

I can clearly see the advantages of PLD over WAR...especially hate wise, since WAR has access to all PLD hate abilities, while PLD get's Provoke...awesome! JUST AWESOME! You opened my eyes, PLD is the tank for hate!

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Do you know the hate values for things like hallowed ground and holy succor + cure spams as compared to all the WAR abilities you listed? I'm guessing no, since I dont see any tests anywhere. Quality over quantity as the saying goes...just because you have more abilities doesn't mean you build the most enmity. For the longest time all a THM had to do was spam two skills without mercy and would pull the hate off of you no matter what you did. Even now a GLA has to spam idk how many skills just to avoid losing enmity to a measly two skills. Thats where you argument has a big gaping hole. The number of them is irrelevant, the amount of hate each generates is the important piece of information.

And I bet you are missing that piece of information when it comes to PLD skills. I'm not saying you're incorrect, you *could* be right in theory..but you could also be wrong in theory. The basis of your claim is off is all im telling you.

On top of it all, PLD does have a much higher learning curve. The use of Cover, Holy Succor, and Divine Veil are really nice mechanics, but they seem perhaps... too intense for the current environment. Cover is counter-intuitive when you're supposed to generate so much enmity. Holy Succor is an amazing Cure spell but again, are others taking enough damage that you'll heal them for 900+ to make it worthwhile to cast when you're holding hate well? Divine Veil is kinda overshadowed by Prism+Regen and allowing them to stack works against your Holy Succor idea.

You can understand all of these things and play PLD like a badass and still be left wondering what it was all for. I think most would rather just DPS while tanking and let the healers heal. Sad but not far from the truth.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

PLD's really need to start investing in mp regens lol. BRD songs could probably help too? Do ppl use that with PLD's?

Ifrit is a pretty good example where PLD vs WAR is not necessarily clear-cut. Elemental dmg makes def useless so you'd probably go with WAR due to more hp. In emergencies, as you said, PLD is preferable due to its abilities. Maybe PLD's should meld HP/block to their gear, taking their naturally buffed defense as is. Maybe they should meld healing potency too?

Ppl just gotta figure it out~ give PLD the right pieces, and the right player, and we'll see how it really compares lol.

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my tank prefer tanking on GLA than PLD, cant blame it lol, more access on cross class skills. Thing is, PLD should get better defense/hp than now. I notice PLD job skill is rarely used on Ifrit...lets check:
- Cover : they only can cover melee such as MNK
- Divine veil: maybe useful, but on ifrit run usually we use 2 WHMs, so kinda pointless
- Spirit Within: not sure if it is useful or not
- Hallowed ground : uh, continous stoneskin is much better that this, ifrit damage mostly elemental anyway
- Holy succor: need coordination to make it useful,again because usually Ifrit run use 2 WHMs

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

On top of it all, PLD does have a much higher learning curve. The use of Cover, Holy Succor, and Divine Veil are really nice mechanics, but they seem perhaps... too intense for the current environment. Cover is counter-intuitive when you're supposed to generate so much enmity. Holy Succor is an amazing Cure spell but again, are others taking enough damage that you'll heal them for 900+ to make it worthwhile to cast when you're holding hate well? Divine Veil is kinda overshadowed by Prism+Regen and allowing them to stack works against your Holy Succor idea.

You can understand all of these things and play PLD like a badass and still be left wondering what it was all for. I think most would rather just DPS while tanking and let the healers heal. Sad but not far from the truth.

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I kinda figured it was just too complicated and difficult to get the hang of. There's always that one class/job in a game that requires too much thinking/coordination but plays like a badass when done right. I know SE knows they made a great tank, what they probably dont know is that they made it too hard to play: which is ironic considering all the ppl whining for challenge rofl

It's not alone just "too hard to play" for the average players. It really is overkill in everything they've thrown at us thus far. That is as simple as I can put it lol

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

It's not alone just "too hard to play" for the average players. It really is overkill in everything they've thrown at us thus far. That is as simple as I can put it lol

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Lol like bringing an armored tank to a fist fight?

More like bringing a graphing calculator to a 2nd grade math exam.

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

More like bringing a graphing calculator to a 2nd grade math exam.

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Lol as in "not worth the time figuring this shit out when I can bring the cheapies you find kicking around in the garage somewhere and still get the right answer"

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

You should take your own advice and quit being stupid and/or butthurt that you can't tank on Pld. I pointed out the Mistress burn because that's the common set up that everyone uses and will recognize, you can do the same with a Pld, most likely more easily as the warrior doesn't add much dmg to the fight, its all about the mnks. Mnks in melee range = huge rampart hate = fight over with still just one mage. Also, read some, I'm not the only one who thinks you're spoutin some bullcrap about Pld being unable to tank.

To sum up, again, i'm sorry you fail at your favorite job that you'd play if you weren't terrible at it.

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God, please please please just stop...you got no clue and are unable to argue reasonably. I'm saying WAR is better then PLD in every way...which is the big flaw here...WAR has better hate generation, WAR deals more dmg, has higher HP Pool(while taking the same dmg)...this all makes PLD the inferior tank...I can tank ANYTHING in this game just fine on PLD, but I can tank it better on WAR, which has nothing to do with my skill as PLD, but the advantages WAR gives...

Plus I don't like to argue with people I got no clue about their actual performance and skill, so I checked your PRO profile...you just recently finished your GLA and MRD...so what are you even talking about...you got no clue...you defeated 90% of the NMs in the game in the past 4 weeks...I've been there and tanked them from the start, so what are you trying to argue about here? I don't think you ever tanked anything at all...what do you even do in this thread, you have nothing to say on the matter...not to mention your LS doesn't even have Chimera down, only Miser...and that as well just recently...what's your point?

I just came back 4 weeks ago after a 6 month break and already accomplished more in those 4 weeks then you...so what does that say about your and my skill in comparison?

If you want to make this a personal battle, just go on with it, I don't care...

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Do you know the hate values for things like hallowed ground and holy succor + cure spams as compared to all the WAR abilities you listed? I'm guessing no, since I dont see any tests anywhere. Quality over quantity as the saying goes...just because you have more abilities doesn't mean you build the most enmity. For the longest time all a THM had to do was spam two skills without mercy and would pull the hate off of you no matter what you did. Even now a GLA has to spam idk how many skills just to avoid losing enmity to a measly two skills. Thats where you argument has a big gaping hole. The number of them is irrelevant, the amount of hate each generates is the important piece of information.

And I bet you are missing that piece of information when it comes to PLD skills. I'm not saying you're incorrect, you *could* be right in theory..but you could also be wrong in theory. The basis of your claim is off is all im telling you.

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Hallowed Ground is 15min cooldown, makes invincible against physical dmg, does not generate hate at all. It avoids getting dmgd. Holy Succor Cure equals 1 HP cured = 1 DMG point done. SE said that quite a while ago.

How I feel when playing PLD

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...83/2cp5bo5.gif