I hate to, but I think I put down healing for now. Please make it engaging again, SE.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

All healers lost something in tandem with simplified dps rotations, this shouldn't have happened, the thought process should have been ok we are simplifying dps on healers how can we improve engagement elsewhere on each healer this is where the devs have gone wrong and where they need to see what they have done to the healer role.

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We shouldn't even call it an expansion at this point, we lost a lot more than we gained.

We lost role skills: Eye for an eye, Largesse, Protect...
WHM lost all its dot management (18s & 24s > 30s).
AST lost its cards and its buff extenders.
SCH lost all its damage actions save for a nuke, 30s dot and generic aoe (Miasma I & II, Bane, Energy Drain, Shadowflare...), and one fairy.

What did we gain?
Healing CDs, a boring and uninspired card system, healing CDs, Repose, healing CDs, one new damage spell for WHM, and healing CDs.

Expansion implies additions and improvements, not removal, dumbing down and oversimplification.

Oh,and let's not forget that SE still refuses to adress this.
They tuned AST's numbers up and called it a day, and look at how well it went. Still the least played healer by a huge margin, despite going from the worst healer to the best in a few months.

I guess that's all we are to them, numbers.


#FreeAeroIII

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Funny because AST damage rotation was pretty much the framework for the Shadowbringers damage re-work and no AST would have wished their pre-ShB rotation on anyone.

Regarding their lore, I find it funny that basically that their lore is essentially useless now with the current changes.

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It's also sad how they want to keep to the lore of other aspects of the game such as Viera and Hrothgar and other things but when it comes down to AST...Nope let's just throw out the very thing it made it fun and unique out the window. I can't even bring myself to play AST other than weekly Savage clears, it's just downright not fun. I love this game but I do not approve of their vision for the healers. They took a wrong turn in that department and need to do a quick U turn before people just walk away from it.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

Oh,and let's not forget that SE still refuses to adress this.
They tuned AST's numbers up and called it a day, and look at how well it went. Still the least played healer by a huge margin, despite going from the worst healer to the best in a few months.

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AST's complexity (well, its pre-SHB card system) was what drew me to healing in FFXIV. I've never even leveled up the other two heal jobs, so I've honestly got to ask: is astro really best at healing now?? I've played DPS in plenty of recent groups with non-ast healers and it seemed to me as though they got the job done with less button mashing than I've experienced playing astro. And sometimes when the CDs are exhausted it seems like bene2 can't even keep pace with damage on a w2w pull. When the healer is a WHM they're easily able to spend most of their time dpsing. (Again, my perception here..)

Try not to judge me on not having leveled up all the jobs to 80... my playtime is limited so I honestly only invest that time in the jobs that appeal most to me. I have to read and learn when the other jobs are discussed. :D

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Ast also has a lot of Stigma to get past as well

-Healer stigma in general of being dull 1 nuke 1 DoT for downtime when heals aren't needed.
-New card system is underwhelming
-The reward is not worth the effort over the competition
-Controller issues especially when optimising
-Gameplay doesn't reflect lore

The devs have only addressed one of these, that being the reward/effort with Ast now being the strongest healer but the biggest one keeping Ast numbers so low is the controller issues, this problem needs to be addressed asap yet they will not even acknowledge it and thus the stigma will remain for most of the expansion alienating people before touching it.

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The funny thing is how we could already see it with tooltips from media tour that SE didn't fixed any healer problems (except adlo crit) but instead created new ones, and I was far from to imaginate they would be numerous and quite important.
For me, it's maybe radical as solution, but healer role and every healer job need a total rework at this point (or at the very least come back to previous iterations and see what works well and build healers on them, it shouldn't be complicated...).

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

AST's complexity (well, its pre-SHB card system) was what drew me to healing in FFXIV. I've never even leveled up the other two heal jobs, so I've honestly got to ask: is astro really best at healing now?? I've played DPS in plenty of recent groups with non-ast healers and it seemed to me as though they got the job done with less button mashing than I've experienced playing astro. And sometimes when the CDs are exhausted it seems like bene2 can't even keep pace with damage on a w2w pull. When the healer is a WHM they're easily able to spend most of their time dpsing. (Again, my perception here..)

Try not to judge me on not having leveled up all the jobs to 80... my playtime is limited so I honestly only invest that time in the jobs that appeal most to me. I have to read and learn when the other jobs are discussed. :D

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Ast has the best rDPS of the healer role by a noticeable amount (not huge but there is a clear gap between it and whm now) the only current end game fight whm can beat it is E1S due to how meteor adds are placed so Holy can hit all 4 + boss, I would still say Ast doesn't have the best healing kit but it is way more than sufficient to do everything and with how the game as well as how the community treat healers, when there is no more need for heals gotta bump that deeps which is where Ast shines. Unfortunately it is just not fun to do for a noticeable amount of players which is the real kicker yet SE won't acknowledge that how current Ast is designed is a problem due to ignorance/arrogance.

I will reiterate, current Ast's biggest problem is how controller unfriendly it is, 8+ macros should never be a more beneficial alternative to using the system as is especially with their inherent input delay, at such a point I class that as a failure of a design on the dev team that urgently needs to be looked long before the next expansion, refusal to look at it is just going to keep Ast numbers low.

I swear if they just continuously buff Ast just to make people play it ala 3.4 buffs again, I'm going to be yelling not so nice words at a few people oh and i will yell at the devs over the changes for so called 'balance' too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Funny because AST damage rotation was pretty much the framework for the Shadowbringers damage re-work and no AST would have wished their pre-ShB rotation on anyone.

Regarding their lore, I find it funny that basically that their lore is essentially useless now with the current changes.

---

A 5.x AST reads horoscopes for their FC:

Capricorn: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Pisces: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Gemini: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Scorpio: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Leo: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Cancer: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Virgo: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Aquarius: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Taurus: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Libra: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Aries: You will deal +6% DPS today!
Sagittarius: You will deal +6% DPS today!

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

For games or any hobby, I think it's important to have that satisfaction that you're actually contributing something, that you're good at it or feel good doing it at least. Overcoming challenges and getting good at XYZ is rewarding. But if something is too easy and isn't fulfilling like that, then... it's really not worth doing.

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Exactly this. It feels like healer is just a slot that needs to be filled in order for a party to queue into content. It feels like you don't make an impact aside from the party not being dead. You're just... there, only pressing the healy button every so often so that other people can continue playing the game. We don't have anything that lets us go above and beyond the duty of being a healer, nothing that we can aspire to be rather than, say, a glare/broil/malefic bot.

Even though I still play and enjoy AST healing as a role is getting boring in this game because I never have to heal. Someone said it before, but I shouldn't have to actively hope for a bad group just so I get to feel like a healer.

If I wanted to play a DPS - I'd have rolled a DPS. And before people get angry, I'm not saying healers shouldn't have to DPS, but that DPS time shouldn't be the defining feature of the role.

Maximizing my healer DPS is only fun when I still have to do some healing. It doesn't feel like an accomplishment that I did a ton of damage on a fight just because nobody took any damage I couldn't instantly fix. It's not exciting to sit there and spam Malefic while occasionally moving for AoEs while nobody takes any damage. It bothers me that the "best healer" is gauged not on their ability to actually heal the group, but based on their personal DPS. Healer DPS is great and all, it should be a part of the game, but it shouldn't be the most important thing to a healer.

But I don't see how they could fix it without fundamentally changing how damage is delivered in the game. The server tick is too slow. I'd rather they replace the healer role with a dedicated support role at this point.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Even though I still play and enjoy AST healing as a role is getting boring in this game because I never have to heal. Someone said it before, but I shouldn't have to actively hope for a bad group just so I get to feel like a healer.

If I wanted to play a DPS - I'd have rolled a DPS. And before people get angry, I'm not saying healers shouldn't have to DPS, but that DPS time shouldn't be the defining feature of the role.

Maximizing my healer DPS is only fun when I still have to do some healing. It doesn't feel like an accomplishment that I did a ton of damage on a fight just because nobody took any damage I couldn't instantly fix. It's not exciting to sit there and spam Malefic while occasionally moving for AoEs while nobody takes any damage. It bothers me that the "best healer" is gauged not on their ability to actually heal the group, but based on their personal DPS. Healer DPS is great and all, it should be a part of the game, but it shouldn't be the most important thing to a healer.

But I don't see how they could fix it without fundamentally changing how damage is delivered in the game. The server tick is too slow. I'd rather they replace the healer role with a dedicated support role at this point.

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If only to emphasise this point, I'll reiterate something I've said in several healer related threads. Despite thirty-five Raises between myself and my BFF, we still had a combined 70-75% Glare uptime in The Copied Factory. It's completely laughable how easy healing is below Savage. You simply don't need two healers whatsoever, and it shows.

Unfortunately, the dev team still assumes healers play entirely differently than we do.

Is it just me, or is the silence from the Dev team deafening right now? There’s been a pretty significant dialogue on the state of healers ever since ShB released yet... what changes have we got so far? What acknowledgement have we got so far?? I haven’t seen much at all, it’s really disheartening that a whole role and many of its concerned/disappointed players is practically being ghosted since they don’t want to acknowledge its problems. The longer they stick their head in the sand or look the other way, the more contempt they’ll get.

The problem with healers now (IMO) is that it's mostly about dealing as much damage as possible while waiting for the actual raid damage to happen, which is kind of how it's always been, but it feels like the group wide damage just isn't as frequent as it could be. Most times it lines up perfectly with cooldowns. I almost always have plenary or horoscope or indom available when i need it.

If people mess up mechanics constantly? Well i have something to do... but it almost feels like i don't even need to be there half the time and am just a Glare/Malefic/Broil bot.

Like you have healers that primarily farm that laugh at the idea of ever casting regen or use any GCD healing because it would reduce their dps. That is an issue.

You could make this game have no healers. Image tank having an auto regen. The only threatening thing would be boss mechanics that essentially one shot you. Do the dance properly and you survive.

Does healing have any impact beyond the occasional unavoidable damage burst to the party?

Tanks barely need sustain. Tankbusters are severly scripted, they occur everytime tanks have their cds up.

Are healers truly needed? If healers are here to fix mistakes then why does every mechanic become instant death. Are we raise machines then?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

Is it just me, or is the silence from the Dev team deafening right now? There’s been a pretty significant dialogue on the state of healers ever since ShB released yet... what changes have we got so far? What acknowledgement have we got so far?? I haven’t seen much at all, it’s really disheartening that a whole role and many of its concerned/disappointed players is practically being ghosted since they don’t want to acknowledge its problems. The longer they stick their head in the sand or look the other way, the more contempt they’ll get.

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Sure, let's ignore the fact that returning ED and the MP buff on AoW was a direct response to feedback on excess Aetherflow stacks.
Let's ignore the fact that the buff to AST was a direct response to feedback on AST being weak.

Let's just throw a temper tantrum whenever we don't get exactly what we want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Sure, let's ignore the fact that returning ED and the MP buff on AoW was a direct response to feedback on excess Aetherflow stacks.
Let's ignore the fact that the buff to AST was a direct response to feedback on AST being weak.

Let's just throw a temper tantrum whenever we don't get exactly what we want.

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And you're ignoring everything SE took away for no reason.

In 5.0, SCH litterally had two damage buttons for every single boss fight, and all they did was undo a skill removal (which should have never happened in the first place). As for AST, it was abysmally bad, and was outperformed by other healers in every field. No exceptions.

They didn't answer our feedback, they just did the bare minimum so they could go back to fixing melee dps. They don't give a duck about us, else the healer forum wouldn't be so full of "can we cancel 5.0 please" threads.

You're just being dismissive and trying to pretend the bare minimum on SE's part is actually an act of kindness we should be grateful for.

Funny enough they fixed the no healing problem in Ultimate Alexander. Titan in comparison healing wise is so relaxed. But in all other content you sleep more or less all the time as healer. And the 1 Button Spam dmg spell isn’t helping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Sure, let's ignore the fact that returning ED and the MP buff on AoW was a direct response to feedback on excess Aetherflow stacks.
Let's ignore the fact that the buff to AST was a direct response to feedback on AST being weak.

Let's just throw a temper tantrum whenever we don't get exactly what we want.

---

After they killed the healer and burned the remains off course we are mad. Lucky enough they could only murder astro and sch. Whm whas so bad already so they couldn’t make it worse. Sch got a the “new” fairy that is complete shit and has the problem to just eat your Inputs if you try to use more then 1 fairy ability at the same time. And ofc there were forced too give them back energy drain. Sitting in your aetherflow stacks and can’t use them because nothing happens so you are forced to overheal just to get the 10 gauge whas super annoying.Astro lost all individuality, just to get cheap balance with different colors, losing all job identity (Time theme/different cards ). And don’t forget the Great talk about Balancing ( killing) the healer so they can add one later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Sure, let's ignore the fact that returning ED and the MP buff on AoW was a direct response to feedback on excess Aetherflow stacks.
Let's ignore the fact that the buff to AST was a direct response to feedback on AST being weak.

Let's just throw a temper tantrum whenever we don't get exactly what we want.

---

ED was complete Garbage to begin with. Having to heal a DRK that's on Living Dead wouldn't even scratch his HP pool. You don't seem to realize what we AST players want is our class to be fun again. You can buff it to God tier level, that still won't change the fact that it's lame and repetitive and that it IS the least played healer by a large margin. Am I angry? Yes I am. We all have the right to be because this is not fixing the problem. We still have the WORST MP management out of the three healers. We lost so much this expansion and all we gained was more OGCD's for healing. We healers have our rights to voice our disapproval of these changes and we shall do so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lodi

And you're ignoring everything SE took away for no reason.

In 5.0, SCH litterally had two damage buttons for every single boss fight, and all they did was undo a skill removal (which should have never happened in the first place). As for AST, it was abysmally bad, and was outperformed by other healers in every field. No exceptions.

They didn't answer our feedback, they just did the bare minimum so they could go back to fixing melee dps. They don't give a duck about us, else the healer forum wouldn't be so full of "can we cancel 5.0 please" threads.

You're just being dismissive and trying to pretend the bare minimum on SE's part is actually an act of kindness we should be grateful for.

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Have you even looked at the DPS forum? There are complaints for every job, which is to be expected. Sorry to break it to you, but class design is hard and they will never be able please everyone.

The Healer forum in particular suffers from a severe case of victim mentality. We are not in 5.0 anymore, yet you keep going back to justify this victim mentality by dismissing every change that is a response to player feedback. I'll just repeat: "Let's just throw a temper tantrum whenever we don't get exactly what we want."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

Is it just me, or is the silence from the Dev team deafening right now? There’s been a pretty significant dialogue on the state of healers ever since ShB released yet... what changes have we got so far? What acknowledgement have we got so far?? I haven’t seen much at all, it’s really disheartening that a whole role and many of its concerned/disappointed players is practically being ghosted since they don’t want to acknowledge its problems. The longer they stick their head in the sand or look the other way, the more contempt they’ll get.

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Ofc it was the same with DRK in SB, and guess what they did in shbr - nothing community said was done - and everyone including me was waiting for change till 5.0

With this in mind, nothing will change till 6.0 :/

It really started to bother me, game overall is very good, but :/ I feel disconnected with "the team making game"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Sure, let's ignore the fact that returning ED and the MP buff on AoW was a direct response to feedback on excess Aetherflow stacks.
Let's ignore the fact that the buff to AST was a direct response to feedback on AST being weak.

Let's just throw a temper tantrum whenever we don't get exactly what we want.

---

Ah yes, they returned the ONE ability. The ONE that anybody with the most basic knowledge of how SCH worked could have told you that the class would not work without, anyone but SE. Square has no idea how SCH, or healers in general, are played, or it would have never been removed in the first place. I'm convinced they didn't even do proper play testing for the class. Had they taken it through ANY piece of content where people didn't eat orange circles like candy they would've found out real quick that SCH's aetherflow was useless 90% of the time, but nooope, it took everyone yelling at them to figure that out. I'm not going to give them credit for that, because it shouldn't have been removed at all.

Also let's ignore the genuine problems, not even the stuff that's up for debate like your DPS abilities. How about the fact that the fairy is STILL broken. It can take, and I timed this, up to 10 seconds for it to use an ability, and that's it it uses it at all. Compare that to Stormblood where the fairy did this really innovative thing and just did what you told it to do when you told it to do. But, yes, every complaint. If just a temper tantrum, and just square undwilling to listen. They have yet to give any explanation as to WHY the fair is on the GCD now and why it's so terrible, why we have nothing to do in downtime (which considering them, I wouldn't be shocked if they thought we didn't have any) why they thought energy drain shouldn't need to be there, despite aetherflow being useless without it (again, anyone but SE could have told you that) that's why people are frustrated. Square has said nothing, and when people ask, even when they get the most upvotes on the live letter threads, they are aptly ignored. But sure, it's nothing but a temper tantrum. God forbid you, as a consumer, are talked to and listened to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Have you even looked at the DPS forum? There are complaints for every job, which is to be expected. Sorry to break it to you, but class design is hard and they will never be able please everyone.

The Healer forum in particular suffers from a severe case of victim mentality. We are not in 5.0 anymore, yet you keep going back to justify this victim mentality by dismissing every change that is a response to player feedback. I'll just repeat: "Let's just throw a temper tantrum whenever we don't get exactly what we want."

---

I have, and the only gameplay complaints I see are about NIN's rework, MNK being awful, and BRD barely being a support. Everything else is small suggestions, advice and lots of balance talk.
Same goes for tanks, people are complaining about DRK and WAR not being very complex, and lots of balance talk.

Do you see healers talk about balance now?

You say class design is hard, but even WHM had more dps actions and interactions in goddamn 1.X than it does now. In six or so years, they couldn't come up with anything better than "press 1 all day and 2 twice per minute"?

We have a victim mentality because, uuuuh, we lost most of what made the role fun? And the devs never gave us a reason why? And they still refuse to acknowledge this?
It's not 5.0 anymore, yet it still feels like it. WHM is just as boring, SCH is slightly less braindead, and AST is just as boring but now it doesn't suck. Amazing.

You keep dismissing our demands even though most of them are "bring back 4.5". We're not asking for anything new, just a return of what made the role fun.

You keep ignoring everything that was removed for no reason, and blaming us for being angry at losing everything.

Tell me, since you obviously know better than the entire forum, can you tell us why did SE remove all your dps kit while making healing easier than ever?
Come on, enlighten us with your infinite class design wisdom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Ah yes, they returned the ONE ability. The ONE that anybody with the most basic knowledge of how SCH worked could have told you that the class would not work without, anyone but SE. Square has no idea how SCH, or healers in general, are played, or it would have never been removed in the first place. I'm convinced they didn't even do proper play testing for the class. Had they taken it through ANY piece of content where people didn't eat orange circles like candy they would've found out real quick that SCH's aetherflow was useless 90% of the time, but nooope, it took everyone yelling at them to figure that out. I'm not going to give them credit for that, because it shouldn't have been removed at all.

---

So they listened to feedback. You can't even say a simple yes. You have to start with "Ah yes", then find whatever words you can to dismiss the change in order to justify this healer victim mentality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Also let's ignore the genuine problems, not even the stuff that's up for debate like your DPS abilities. How about the fact that the fairy is STILL broken. It can take, and I timed this, up to 10 seconds for it to use an ability, and that's it it uses it at all. Compare that to Stormblood where the fairy did this really innovative thing and just did what you told it to do when you told it to do. But, yes, every complaint. If just a temper tantrum, and just square undwilling to listen. They have yet to give any explanation as to WHY the fair is on the GCD now and why it's so terrible, why we have nothing to do in downtime (which considering them, I wouldn't be shocked if they thought we didn't have any) why they thought energy drain shouldn't need to be there, despite aetherflow being useless without it (again, anyone but SE could have told you that) that's why people are frustrated. Square has said nothing, and when people ask, even when they get the most upvotes on the live letter threads, they are aptly ignored. But sure, it's nothing but a temper tantrum. God forbid you, as a consumer, are talked to and listened to.

---

It's not broken. It's called a GCD and animation. Everyone has it and the fairy is no exception. The fairy is doing what you tell her to do, be it following you around or stopping to cast her queued abilities. If you mash all of her abilities and then complain it takes 10 seconds for one of them cast, I have no sympathy. You cannot possibly tell me it takes 10 seconds for the fairy to cast a single Whispering Wind when she is placed in the middle of the arena. Maybe you should put some time and effort into understanding how the fairy works.

Finally, yes, you are a consumer and you get what you pay for - access to the game. You are not entitled to an explanation for every decision they make. Do you go to McDonalds and demand an explanation for why their BigMac is the way it is? Didn't think so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

So they listened to feedback. You can't even say a simple yes. You have to start with "Ah yes", then find whatever words you can to dismiss the change in order to justify this healer victim mentality.



It's not broken. It's called a GCD and animation. Everyone has it and the fairy is no exception. The fairy is doing what you tell her to do, be it following you around or stopping to cast her queued abilities. If you mash all of her abilities and then complain it takes 10 seconds for one of them cast, I have no sympathy. You cannot possibly tell me it takes 10 seconds for the fairy to cast a single Whispering Wind when she is placed in the middle of the arena. Maybe you should put some time and effort into understanding how the fairy works.

Finally, yes, you are a consumer and you get what you pay for - access to the game. You are not entitled to an explanation for every decision they make. Do you go to McDonalds and demand an explanation for why their BigMac is the way it is? Didn't think so.

---

o__O dunno what You even want to say

I agree with people before You

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

So they listened to feedback. You can't even say a simple yes. You have to start with "Ah yes", then find whatever words you can to dismiss the change in order to justify this healer victim mentality.

And if McDonald's changed an ingredient on their big Mac, yeah, they'd tell you SOME reason for it. Whether or not that reason is BS or not is another question, but say they decided to change the buns to a lettuce wrap, yeah, they'd have some sort of justification for it. They wouldn't just do it and then expect you to accept it.

It's not broken. It's called a GCD and animation. Everyone has it and the fairy is no exception. The fairy is doing what you tell her to do, be it following you around or stopping to cast her queued abilities. If you mash all of her abilities and then complain it takes 10 seconds for one of them cast, I have no sympathy. You cannot possibly tell me it takes 10 seconds for the fairy to cast a single Whispering Wind when she is placed in the middle of the arena. Maybe you should put some time and effort into understanding how the fairy works.

Finally, yes, you are a consumer and you get what you pay for - access to the game. You are not entitled to an explanation for every decision they make. Do you go to McDonalds and demand an explanation for why their BigMac is the way it is? Didn't think so.

---

They "listened" but why did they need to is my question. Why are they so disconnected with how healers play that it was something like this was a problem in the first place, AND people were complaining about that the second it was revealed, knowing it wouldn't work, but sure, why not I guess better late then never. The point of bringing they up is that they have this serious disconnect with how healers are played, and, I'm convinced, they don't even playtest them.

And, animations is the exsuse for fairy not doing anything for up to TEN seconds? Really? No other class in the game has animations? A 1 second or 2 second delay would be, somewhat, okay. (even that is pushing it) but the fact that it can be up to TEN is okay because "animations"? What it BLM had to wait 10 seconds for leylines? They wouldn't stand for it, and rightfully so, there's no excuse for a delay THAT long, especially when this has never been a problem until THIS expansion AND it's a heal you're missing out on that long. "sorry bro, couldn't heal you, my fairy had to do an animation so you died. It's cool though, right? I mean that's definitely acceptable that you had 5 seconds to be healed, and the fairy, even though was told to heal you as soon as you too the damage, just didn't do it. Because I need the animations to finish" nobody needs the spell 10 seconds after they press the button, they need it WHEN they press the button, you know, like every other spell in the game. Also let's not forget that's when the abilities decide to go off, they can outright just not happen too, but you know, I guess they're fine, not broken. Even though this was never a problem until this expansion. Only temper tantrums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

So they listened to feedback. You can't even say a simple yes. You have to start with "Ah yes", then find whatever words you can to dismiss the change in order to justify this healer victim mentality.



It's not broken. It's called a GCD and animation. Everyone has it and the fairy is no exception. The fairy is doing what you tell her to do, be it following you around or stopping to cast her queued abilities. If you mash all of her abilities and then complain it takes 10 seconds for one of them cast, I have no sympathy. You cannot possibly tell me it takes 10 seconds for the fairy to cast a single Whispering Wind when she is placed in the middle of the arena. Maybe you should put some time and effort into understanding how the fairy works.

Finally, yes, you are a consumer and you get what you pay for - access to the game. You are not entitled to an explanation for every decision they make. Do you go to McDonalds and demand an explanation for why their BigMac is the way it is? Didn't think so.

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So you're trying to compare Mcdonalds way of making food to SE's way of deciding things for the community? I have no words for you other than how disappointed I am at your response.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

So you're trying to compare Mcdonalds way of making food to SE's way of deciding things for the community? I have no words for you other than how disappointed I am at your response.

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If McDonalds bothers you, simply replace the analogy with a car manufacturer and its car. You are not entitled to an explanation for design decisions. It seems the point of the analogy flew right over your head.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

And, animations is the exsuse for fairy not doing anything for up to TEN seconds? Really? No other class in the game has animations? A 1 second or 2 second delay would be, somewhat, okay. (even that is pushing it) but the fact that it can be up to TEN is okay because "animations"? What it BLM had to wait 10 seconds for leylines? They wouldn't stand for it, and rightfully so, there's no excuse for a delay THAT long, especially when this has never been a problem until THIS expansion AND it's a heal you're missing out on that long. "sorry bro, couldn't heal you, my fairy had to do an animation so you died. It's cool though, right? I mean that's definitely acceptable that you had 5 seconds to be healed, and the fairy, even though was told to heal you as soon as you too the damage, just didn't do it. Because I need the animations to finish" nobody needs the spell 10 seconds after they press the button, they need it WHEN they press the button, you know, like every other spell in the game. Also let's not forget that's when the abilities decide to go off, they can outright just not happen too, but you know, I guess they're fine, not broken. Even though this was never a problem until this expansion. Only temper tantrums.

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I said GCD and animations. And no, I'm not granting you those 10 seconds.

Explain to me the scenario in which you press Whispering Dawn alone and the fairy takes 10 seconds to apply it.

On the next episode of LariaKirin vs the world.

I'm not even going to pretend to humor a conversation because of how dismissive you are to everyone else, kind of like a certain someone else that hangs around these parts.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

I have, and the only gameplay complaints I see are about NIN's rework, MNK being awful, and BRD barely being a support. Everything else is small suggestions, advice and lots of balance talk.
Same goes for tanks, people are complaining about DRK and WAR not being very complex, and lots of balance talk.

Do you see healers talk about balance now?

You say class design is hard, but even WHM had more dps actions and interactions in goddamn 1.X than it does now. In six or so years, they couldn't come up with anything better than "press 1 all day and 2 twice per minute"?

We have a victim mentality because, uuuuh, we lost most of what made the role fun? And the devs never gave us a reason why? And they still refuse to acknowledge this?
It's not 5.0 anymore, yet it still feels like it. WHM is just as boring, SCH is slightly less braindead, and AST is just as boring but now it doesn't suck. Amazing.

You keep dismissing our demands even though most of them are "bring back 4.5". We're not asking for anything new, just a return of what made the role fun.

You keep ignoring everything that was removed for no reason, and blaming us for being angry at losing everything.

Tell me, since you obviously know better than the entire forum, can you tell us why did SE remove all your dps kit while making healing easier than ever?
Come on, enlighten us with your infinite class design wisdom.

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Funny enough mnk isn’t bad ist just piss poor boring after the TK remove and ogcd removal. You just have this rotation with almost no ogcds so you get bored rather then quick.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

If McDonalds bothers you, simply replace the analogy with a car manufacturer and its car. You are not entitled to an explanation for design decisions. It seems the point of the analogy flew right over your head.

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As the consumer "Supporting" their game that "Allows" them to keep doing what they're doing, being given an explanation is only right to those who want one. Only thing that bothers me is your poor analogy over this subject. Attitude like yours will only drive people away from it.

Also if you wanna use Car manufacturer as your analogy then here's some words of enlightenment. You know who supports those companies? Stock holders, share holders that invest into the company and you can be sure their opinions and feedback are welcome because it is them that allows those companies to remain in business. I didn't come here to argue about senseless analogy comparisons.

Well lets move on a from Laria since they probably wont be changing thier mind anyways, has anybody asked a question on the latest QA thread? I know we were ignored last time and would be considered off topic again this time but i was thinking a token question might be a thing to do. It might be a bit late to get likes though if there isn't already one there and buried by other questions

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

If McDonalds bothers you, simply replace the analogy with a car manufacturer and its car. You are not entitled to an explanation for design decisions. It seems the point of the analogy flew right over your head.

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Well, I believe we are. At least they should try to sell you those changes if anything. If new phones suddenly became of less quality for the same price, you'd have a few questions for the manfacturer.


Also, what is "victim mentality" to you? Seems like you are not really adressing any of the points of the thread, those being:

-Healing classes homogenization.
-Prevalence of healing downtime in encounters.
-Repetitive and uninteresting dps rotation in those common downtime moments.
-Clunky class mechanics
-Non-comunication from the devs.

The other problem with the analogy is if the manufacturer changes a design, it's not a design change on my vehicle, that vehicle's design remains as is and I can be happy with what I've got because I have what I originally got when I bought it. It'd be closer to, say an FFVII fan expecting answers on design choices on the remake, they might be interested if they want to buy the remake, but it doesn't affect the original game they bought and nothing is lost.

However, if I brought my motorcycle in for a service and it is returned to me and the dash is now analog instead of digital, I'm going to ask "why?" and as it'd affects some of the features I get on the digital display then it's not so great to not provide an explanation or correct the issue if me and other people who ride the same bike are unhappy. Sure some will be happy with analog, but I like having the MPG display, fuel mileage, trip a and b, the eco icon that tells me I'm riding economically and would be scratching my head as to why they'd get rid of it.

Though of course, playing an MMO isn't like going to McDonald's or buying a vehicle. Especially as swapping out parts like that in a service would be ridiculous, but something that people would do in an MMO.

I'm not particularly attached to the analogy. It's not an all-encompassing analogy and it's not meant to be. I'm merely pointing out the ridiculousness of expecting them to explain design decisions.

I'd be more interested if you actually addressed the point: you are not entitled to an explanation for design decisions.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

AST still hasn't recovered from their extreme shortages.

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10 SCH for every 1 AST in 5.0.
3 SCH for every 1 AST in 5.1.

No recovery.

Also, why is this a problem?

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

I don't. Your point?

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I have no further comment nor the patience to argue with a brick wall. We have a right to express our concerns and feedback regardless. All I've seen you do is talk about poor analogy comparisons. I don't know where you get off in saying we have no rights about anything. We'll keep at it until Square enix hears us.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Have you even looked at the DPS forum? There are complaints for every job, which is to be expected. Sorry to break it to you, but class design is hard and they will never be able please everyone.

The Healer forum in particular suffers from a severe case of victim mentality. We are not in 5.0 anymore, yet you keep going back to justify this victim mentality by dismissing every change that is a response to player feedback. I'll just repeat: "Let's just throw a temper tantrum whenever we don't get exactly what we want."

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Well the victim mentality probably came about due to having 4-6 years of experience on how a job was designed and played, radically being changed via removal/changing of skills so it feels like a completely different version of the same job, and then getting radio silence on why these changes were made or a response of we don't want to hurt the players who like it now despite the overwhelming vocals claiming it was a bad design decision (I'm not saying they are a majority so don't use that please).

I'm pretty damn sure a lot of blms will gain a 'victim mentality' if blm was changed to be like this
-Removal of umbral ice and all skills tied to it
-Fire costs 200 mp and no longer gives firestarter procs
-Fire II costs 600 mp
-Fire III costs 500 mp
-Fire IV costs 500 mp and can only be used under Enochain
-Thunder II and IV removed, thunder III renamed Thunder II now just a straight upgrade to thunder I
-Despair costs 1k mp and can only be used after 3 Fire IVs in succession also provides a debuff preventing Fire IV from being cast for 20s
-Flare costs 1k mp and grants a debuff which prevents using Flare for 10s
-Enochain lasts 10s but gets reset every time Fire IV hits a target
-Convert now asks for half the hp of blm for 1.5k mp
-Xenoglossy removed
-All cast times increased to 4s and potencies adjusted to compensate
-New ogcd raise given to blm costs 0 mp can be used every 10s, other casters keep their current raises


You would get some people who would like the above but you definitely see a lot of disdain from the vocals, it is the same idea with healers they fundamentally changed a lot with healers and what your seeing is the backlash to those changes.

5.05 healer changes should never have been needed in the 1st place, Ast should never have been that far behind in terms of healing output compared to Whm and Sch, and Sch should never have lost ED in the 1st place, I am not going to thank the devs for listening to something that should have been there in the 1st place. However the QoL stuff in 5.1 I am thankful for at least for Ast, Sch stuff was just WHY?!!

But these changes do not help the very underlining issues that SE has routinely ignored Ast's controller issues are a major design snafu, healer having 1 nuke as their most commonly used spell across everything baring TEA even the other Ultimates they are the most used spell.

Honestly it is not hard to see in the Design phase let alone going through approval, testing and then implementation, that 1 nuke, 1 DoT is incredibly dull and monotonous for doing anything solo. With how long is the MSQ again 150-200 hours with about 30-40 hours being group content where you are grossly overpowered with ogcds that stuff like Benefic, Cure, Physick and subsequent procs are highly underutilised.

I would not be surprised if 6.0 healer changes had something like this:
-cure will update to cure II or cure IV at appropriate levels
-removal of freecure trait
etc

SE job design team have very little experience with healers in FFXIV, they can design healers for MMOs but they certainly cannot design healers for FFXIV or they would have taken a step back, looked at the overwhelming negative feedback at the state of healers and gone "Maybe i should look into this" rather than they are fine just do few QoL here and there.

wow laria ,your twisted logic goes beyond anything i ever read here congratulation.
there is a lot of errors in your analogies but i will focus on the basic ones.

mcdonald and even car manufacturers make their decisions not only from share holders as previous people said but also based on people feedbacks,their concerns and surveys they conduct on their products.
if they didn't then we wouldn't have cars with cutting edge technology like in-built speakers for conversation,wifi and navigation systems or even being designed to consume less fuel and pollute less for those that care about the environment, hack even safety is based on accidents and customers concerns but as usual you throw analogies without considering.

as for mcdonalds,they throw surveys changed their menu based on feedback and clients concerns to the point they even change how they make their food out.

if you want better example to how healers were mistreated check how SMN who also suffer from same issues of ghosting/delay and not only that their button bloat and pet weak damage were answered and even got an apology to the changes they received in 5.0 and scholar received nothing or even got the same solution bahamut got to their seraph.

but like usual ,you will ignore that ,throw some post like they are fact such as the victim mentality which is bullshit cause the more logical example for your case is every post about the problems is more resemble a simple example of unsatisfied client expressing his discontent to the wrong representative(which isn't cause this is the official channel to post feedback's and complains and even if it was wrong,a company still need to address costumer complains once it does reach the right one,not necessarily fix immediately but it must definitely answer him for good or bad) but of course you never cared/thought of seeing things like that and prefer to insult.
at this point your posts are now more of a troll trying to get a response from us and good job you got one ,you stick with your claims and we will stick with ours and with that lets end your ridiculous comparrison argument.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I'm pretty damn sure a lot of blms will gain a 'victim mentality' if blm was changed to be like this

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Haha, I was exactly thinking the same thing.

Let's imaginate SCH (or WHM-AST) situation applied to a BLM :

- Lore destroyed : BLM has now only Fire IV as fire action (as SCH with Poison actions) which is an upgrade of Fire III-II-I.
- Extra delay on animations : Enochian, Ley Lines, Triple Cast and Between the Line take 3 more sec before working (as every Fairy actions which is ~1/6 of SCH kit).
- Skill(s) which prevent you to use a part of your kit : Ley Lines prevent you to use Ice actions (as Fey Union which doesn't work with Seraph or Dissipation, and Dissipation which prevent you to use fairy actions).
- Using 2 abilities too fast cause the 2nd not working : Imagine that with Aetherial Manipulation and Between the lines (as every actions ties to fairy used before summoning Seraph or Dissipation and more).
- Putting a spell in role action : Sleep is now a caster role action (as it is the case for Repose from WHM).


It sound horrible doesn't it ^^ ?

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

If you mash all of her abilities and then complain it takes 10 seconds for one of them cast, I have no sympathy. You cannot possibly tell me it takes 10 seconds for the fairy to cast a single Whispering Wind when she is placed in the middle of the arena. Maybe you should put some time and effort into understanding how the fairy works.

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So because I'm on mobile I really can't go and quote your other reply, but you asked the same thing. The argument of "you telling your fairy to do multiple things is making the fairy tale up to 10 seconds to use an ability" is completely irrelevant and it misses the problem entirely. If I use MY oGCD to tell fairy to use WD followed by fey blessing, or w/e, I should get both, immediately,after I press the buttons, regardless of what fairy is doing. If the game wants to treat them like pet GCDs then they need to go back on the pet hotbar (which is funny, because when they WERE on the pet hotbar they never had a delay even close to this horrid).

The only punishment you should ever have for misusing your resources is not having that resource later if/when you need it. You do not punish a WHM by using benediction->tetra on the same target by not having that tetra wait to go off 4-5 seconds later, they're punished by needing that tetra later and not having it. The same should apply to any resource. If someone manages their pet badly and uses an ability when it isn't needed, then their punishment should be not having that ability later when they need it.