No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

That's the exact opposite of a healer that knows what they're doing. Healing takes priority, and you should never, ever, let your tanks health dip low willingly, especially in newer content where tank busters are exceedingly common.

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Oh god stop with this silly argument. Astro has a skill that legit mutes your entire point in Essential Dignity:
Restores target's HP.
Cure Potency: 400
Potency increases up to 1,100 as the target's HP decreases.
Maximum Charges: 2

That type of logic doesn't fly especially now with all of the healer changes. Healing has become so boring and mute that keeping everyone topped off is a waste of time and your resources. I'd much rather have a healer helping me dps down a boss to make everyone's life easier then giving me the juice of life constantly cutting down our dps by 25%. They have tools in OGCDs to help the party and the damage output from most bosses is enough to manage even with those.

Your logic just won't fly in Savage or even EX when you can't meet dps checks because you're too focused on topping the tank off when you could be instead getting some extra hits to meet a dps check.

Most healers in DF don't DPS, and it doesn't take more time than when I play my Holy spam WHM and get mediocre DPS ( which are legion). That's the reason why I mostly play BLM in dungeons now. Healers DPS is low, way too low to compensate for terrible DPS.

Back to the topic, there are a lot of tanks these days that don't pull wall to wall. More than during 5.0. I wonder why. It's a bit of a waste of course but I don't blame them if they aren't comfortable with the content.

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Originally Posted by Novae

Most healers in DF don't DPS, and it doesn't take more time than when I play my Holy spam WHM and get mediocre DPS ( which are legion). That's the reason why I mostly play BLM in dungeons now. Healers DPS is low, way too low to compensate for terrible DPS.

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It takes more time.
With AOEs, healer can do as much dmg as a tank or some DPS classes.

And on bosses, well healers can do more dmg then tanks.

As a WHM main, if my tank is a DRK or a GNB, I'm going to hold on to my Bene until they use Walking Dead/Superbollide, since that's typically the only way I can keep them from dying once the effect goes off. If I don't have the Bene, and there's still a good number of mobs up, they're going to die.

I also *prefer* that a tank starts out with 1-2 pack pulls so I can at least get a couple of lilies to expand my instant-cast healing capabilities, although I can cope with larger pulls early on using Thin Air rotated with Lucid Dreaming to support Cure II spam. Once I've got my full kit up, though? The tank can pull whatever they want. I will keep the party alive through any pull that they don't outrange/LOS me for.

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Originally Posted by AuraAstra

As a WHM main, if my tank is a DRK or a GNB, I'm going to hold on to my Bene until they use Walking Dead/Superbollide, since that's typically the only way I can keep them from dying once the effect goes off. If I don't have the Bene, and there's still a good number of mobs up, they're going to die.

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So I really don't understand this.

Living Dead is a horrible resource dump, but it's actually really easy to heal through. I don't see how you couldn't possibly heal a DRK in the 10 seconds given for the effect to go off.

With Super, I also fail to understand how you wouldn't be able to heal through it. Once it activates you have an entire 8 seconds to get your GNB tank to a decent amount of HP, and during that 8 seconds they don't take damage.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

So I really don't understand this.

Living Dead is a horrible resource dump, but it's actually really easy to heal through. I don't see how you couldn't possibly heal a DRK in the 10 seconds given for the effect to go off.

With Super, I also fail to understand how you wouldn't be able to heal through it. Once it activates you have an entire 8 seconds to get your GNB tank to a decent amount of HP, and during that 8 seconds they don't take damage.

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You forgot most healers lose seconds going "OMG HE'S SO LOW! WHAT DO I DO NOW?"

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You forgot most healers lose seconds going "OMG HE'S SO LOW! WHAT DO I DO NOW?"

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So.. 7 and 9 seconds?

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

Instant casts should be saved for emergencies when they're actually needed, not wasted over misunderstood priority or outright laziness.

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When I play healer. Esp in expert dungeons/raids and trial fights. I rarely use a GCD heal. I actually challenge myself to see if I can go a whole run with no GCD heals. I guess I'm just lazy. But then I'm also doing 6-7K dps to. I dont even main healer or play it that much.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

Frankly, wall-to-wall pullers and speedrunners can go jump a cliff. At the same time, though, two or three groups at a time is my preferred pace.

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So your preferred pace is wall to wall lol. Most dungeons only have 2-3 packs.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Only once in all the time I've played has anyone ever even said they were doing large pulls. No one has asked me if I wanted to. Why do I have to ask them not to, and not the other way around? Why is it okay to assume that one way of playing is the default, and that no one should even ask if that's what everyone wants to do?

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Because I'm the tank and I control the pace of the run. That is the role's right by definition. If you were to pull small and someone else pulls more mobs in, that person is in the wrong because you have chosen to pull within your comfort zone. It's been that way since the beginning of ARR.

One thing I notice about the big pull debate is that people seem extremely afraid of wipes. If a tank pulls too much and a wipe happens, that is the tank's fault, and we adjust accordingly, there's nothing wrong with that and it very rarely happens because big pulls are so easy.

Ah... People keep eating the baits...

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Originally Posted by Omymy

Ah... People keep eating the baits...

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Baits are good. And while this is bait it also opens discussion..

It's actually easier to do BIG pulls on the healer than small ones: You end up using the same cooldowns and resources, but for MORE packs, stressing you more than one big pull, boss, one big pull...boss, and so forth.

Don't believe me? Try it out. You can, on Scholar for example, use Seraph on one pull, Fey Union on another and alternate. You can use Recitation Excog on one pull, Sacred Soil with a Deploy on the scholar to spread to the tank for another, and so forth.

For tanks, this is even better, we have fewer big cooldowns, so for one pull we can invuln, then Arm's Length, then Active mitigation like heart of stone. For another pull, we can use 30percent mitigation, reprisal, and active mitagation, saving rampart and our 90s to mix in wherever.

Big pulls are better for this, since you have less pulls overall, and can recover your cooldowns better. If the healer is playing properly, and using lucid every time they are at 8k mana, ,they should never run out. White Mages should use Holy to stun and space out the stuns for max effect.

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Uhh, people who min/max know Clemency is a gain on DPS because it lets the White Mage deal more damage then you.

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The kind of people I'm talking about (note my disdain for them) generally care only about their pDPS, not rDPS.

And there have been healers who get butthurt over tanks healing themselves because they take it as an insult to their ability. I haven't run into much of that in game, but I've seen at least two topics here before from people like that.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

So I really don't understand this.

Living Dead is a horrible resource dump, but it's actually really easy to heal through. I don't see how you couldn't possibly heal a DRK in the 10 seconds given for the effect to go off.

With Super, I also fail to understand how you wouldn't be able to heal through it. Once it activates you have an entire 8 seconds to get your GNB tank to a decent amount of HP, and during that 8 seconds they don't take damage.

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Part of it is playstyle - When I'm healing through those big pulls the tank is only going to use their "take me to 1HP" ability when I have no instant casts available, my Thin Air and Presence of Mind are down, and the 2.5s cast time and 1k MP cost is not going to be enough to get them back up before they go die and we wipe. I've had this happen often enough that it's basically become habit to keep that one big "oh sh!t" button back and simply maintain the party using my shorter cd abilities. I could get into my on personal philosophy of the best way to heal (for example: I don't like dumping resources when I have other answers available), but that would make this more of an essay.

Part of it is potency effectiveness - Sure, I can spam them with Cure II, but again, personal experience has taught me that sometimes even C2 hits like a wet noodle. I haven't been able to figure out a pattern for when or why this happens, but I have had times where I can literally spam C2 on a tank and their health bar. Will. Not. Move. It's not lag. It's not me disconnecting. It's simply that, for whatever reason, 20k healing = 0 healing.

Part of it is timing - This rolls in with the other two parts. A single cast of Cure II, when I cast it, has a base healing amount of about 20k. If a DRK uses Living Dead and drops to 1HP, I then have 10s to heal them the full amount of their health, let's call that 100k. If C2 takes 2.5s to cast, and does not crit, I will fall 20-40% short on healing, and they'll die from the effect, and burn through 50% of my mana doing so. The *only* way C2 spam works in that situation, is if I manage to precast both Thin Air and Presence of Mind. If I fail to do so (and being honest, that is the more probable scenario), then the tank is dead and I have to use a further 25% of my MP to get them back up, then use whatever I have left to keep the dps alive while the res animation finishes and the tank gets in to grab aggro back. Now, I don't know about other people, but personally? That's not how I like to do things. It's a huge waste of mana, and has a very high probability of wiping the party. On trash.

For Super it has to do with playstyle again. Tank drops below acceptable threshold = panic heal.

Yeah, using Clemency to self heal results in ranting about "Trusting the healer" and "Wasting GCD's you could use to do damage" and in some cases vote kicks.

On the flip side, trusting the healer and not using Clemency leads to death, spiraling into a wipe, and then screaming and vote kicks.

There are two options, both options lead to being yelled at and kicked from the group for "Being a bad tank!!!"


Then there is the issue of pulling, where you run through a pack of mobs, doing a single AOE while running through them to grab aggro because doing anything more would require stopping for a few seconds, so you only get that one hit in, then while continuing the pull the DPS manage to pull off you mid-run because that's apparantly a thing that can happen when you only land a single AOE hit on the mobs, at which point your options are.

1: Abort the pull and run back the way you came to get aggro back, keeping in mind that both provoke and shield lob are exceedingly likely to end up out of range otherwise (And get yelled at for stopping in the middle of the pull)
2: Let the DPS die (And get yelled at for not managing aggro and letting party members die)

Or you can stop for a few seconds to get another hit in to ensure aggro won't be lost...and then get yelled at for stutter pulling, with all the "I hate it when a tank pulls one pack, stops for a few seconds, and then starts running again to pull the next pack!" ranting that comes with it.

Three options, all of them lead to getting yelled at and potentially kicked.


Or the cooldown issue, where you either use them as often as possible, and get yelled at for "Not managing your cooldowns properly!" or hold them for when they are needed, and get yelled at for "Not using cooldowns at every available opportunity means they are wasted!"
Heck, holding a cooldown for a specific mechanic can get you yelled at over how you should have used it sooner so you can get more uses out of it, even if the cooldown period is longer than the time you have until the mech you need it for comes...and trying to argue over how doing it their way will kill you because it won't be back up in time gets you yelled at.

Use them frequently, get raged at, be conservative, get raged at, try for a middle ground, get raged at...

Do everything right? Get raged at for "Being a tryhard" and making everyone else look bad...

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

If a tank pulls too much and a wipe happens, that is the tank's fault, and we adjust accordingly, there's nothing wrong with that and it very rarely happens because big pulls are so easy.

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Sometimes as a healer it's more like... Tank doesn't use CDs, stands in aoes, doesn't stop tank busters, all that stuff. Then it's stuff like 'WTF are you doing healer'. In my experience you have to be lucky for the tank to accept it as their fault when it actually is their fault.

While it's somewhat of an unspoken code that the tank controls the pace of the run, I don't think its a good mentality for them to rally behind because it can feed certain people's egos too much. And I think this can help nurture the 'If ya cant keep up, you're straight outta luck' mindset.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Sometimes as a healer it's more like... Tank doesn't use CDs, stands in aoes, doesn't stop tank busters, all that stuff. Then it's stuff like 'WTF are you doing healer'. In my experience you have to be lucky for the tank to accept it as their fault when it actually is their fault.

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Most frequent one of late for me is the tank full pulling and then getting the d/c symbol for a few seconds at a time and then getting snarky with for "wasting" a Benediction after my Tetra just did nothing until they left their lag spike, so I had to Bene earlier than I would like rather than just waiting in hope that my earlier heals would eventually go through...
That, or full-pull tanks who refuse to sprint, get pulled off of by dps ramping up for the full gather, going back rather than trusting them to deposit the mobs, and depleting future CDs before we ever even hit the AoE spam...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That, or full-pull tanks who refuse to sprint, get pulled off of by dps ramping up for the full gather, going back rather than trusting them to deposit the mobs, and depleting future CDs before we ever even hit the AoE spam...

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Big yes to these too. I've actually started sprinting myself a while back when I tank or heal. I think you were one of the ones that opened my eyes to the effectiveness and helped me to start giving a damn. I could be wrong. But I REALLY have a problem with tanks popping EVERY freakin cooldown before they even start getting hit! My heart almost stops! Like what the hell are we going to do for the rest of the pull????

I feel like healers don't consider you stutter pulling when it's just getting the second hit for the AoE combo in before moving.

But I've yet to manage to interrupt both the Berserk adds in Twinning, because they quite often don't end up both on the party list due to add numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Big yes to these too. I've actually started sprinting myself a while back when I tank or heal. I think you were one of the ones that opened my eyes to the effectiveness and helped me to start giving a damn. I could be wrong. But I REALLY have a problem with tanks popping EVERY freakin cooldown before they even start getting hit! My heart almost stops! Like what the hell are we going to do for the rest of the pull????

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Might have been. I tend to throw out the reminder that "Sprint is mitigation, especially if you take off immediately after tagging the mobs once (which is usually plenty), and its duration is doubled if you use it *before* entering combat" an awful lot, once I see someone forgetting to sprint. I think I've managed to retrain maybe a dozen or so tanks over the last year or so?

Hi my name is Rick Speegull from Paulmart heating and cooling, I understand u called about a heated situation, is that correct sir?

Sir there is no need to call my wife a Jezebel whore, I don't have a wife to begin with, what woman in her right mind would marry a guy named Rick Speegull, trust me I've tried no woman hates herself that much but if u find the one that does give her my Paulmart contact info.

Oh that's perfectly fine sir, I may be a heating and cooling repairman but at Paulmart the customer is always right sir, so u want a pool installed, u want a big pool or small pool?

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Sometimes as a healer it's more like... Tank doesn't use CDs, stands in aoes, doesn't stop tank busters, all that stuff. Then it's stuff like 'WTF are you doing healer'. In my experience you have to be lucky for the tank to accept it as their fault when it actually is their fault.

While it's somewhat of an unspoken code that the tank controls the pace of the run, I don't think its a good mentality for them to rally behind because it can feed certain people's egos too much. And I think this can help nurture the 'If ya cant keep up, you're straight outta luck' mindset.

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It's not something that is rallied behind, it's a matter of fact inherent in the game design. The tank pulls, therefore the tank can choose to pull one pack or multiple. Having said that, just because a tank pulls large packs doesn't mean that the tank is good. Bad players exist and are a completely separate argument from the "big pulls should be the standard" argument. You should be watching the tank, you should know when they are playing badly, and if they call you out, call them out back, it's not the tank you need to convince, its the other DPS who share the vote kick with you.

FYI, bad players rarely accept fault in DF, whether they are tanks, DPS, or healers.

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Originally Posted by AuraAstra

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This is the first time I've ever heard a WHM complain about having MP issues, but looking at your stuff I can see a few issues that you have, such as NOT using Presence of Mind during a fight, or not using Assize as much as you could.

This is going on the one E4 fight, of course, so I don't know how it compares to everything else you do - but during said fight you didn't use Presence of Mind, missed 5 possible Assizes. You also missed out on all Temperance mitigation, Divine Benison mitigation, and Asylum healing & healing increase - meaning they were never cast.

Looking at it, it seems you have trouble using the tools that you have available to yourself.

I don't play WHM at all on any serious level, but I can tell you that you need to learn those tools as they prevent you from needing to expend extra oGCD skills. The tank isn't the only person who should be mitigating damage, and you pressing your shield to them, or using Asylum/Temperance is going to save you mroe then a few oGCDs in the long run.

This is also the first time I've heard a healer complain about tank invulns. (outside of Living Dead, which is a major resource dump.)

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Originally Posted by AuraAstra

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I'm genuinly curious where and how these situations happen.
It sounds to me like this is a regular occurence for you but escpecially as a WHM you should neither run out of MP nor out of tools to heal a tank back up.

Also Cure II (or 700 potency heals in general) should hit for 24-25k with your gear, escpecially with a 460 weapon. My healers are still in 450 aswell and it definitely heals for more. Substats don't make a different of 4k+.
Also, you don't have 2,5sec casts with your gear, it's probably somewhere between 2,35-2,38.
20k every 2,5sek vs 24k every 2,38sec is already a huge difference if you really have to resort to Cure II spam.

If you find yourself out of MP AND out of tools when the tank uses Bolide/ Living Dead, there are two most likely scenarios:
1. the tank pulled too much for the low party dps and the pull took so long you ran out of options and have to Cure II spam until things come off cd again, Bolide/ Living Dead is sort of a last resort here
2. you frontloaded too much or panicked and ran out of options

The former often happens during the first pull. Mobs usually melt decently fast in average groups, so most tanks just assume dps will be decent enough for wall to wall and go ahead with it.
The latter is a matter of your playstyle and learning to use your full toolkit effectively. Keeping calm if shit hits the fan is one of the healer's responsibilities and something you can learn. Spreading cds evenly without letting them sit unused is also something that can be learned.
Running out of options should only ever happen towards the end of a pull and with tanks usually using immunity early/ mid-pull you definitely shouldn't be out of options by then.
IF they do it towards the end of a pull it's likely because stuff took longer than expected to kill and they're out of options aswell, so immunity is their last resort until something else is off cd again.

For every average big pull you usually have two Assizes and one LD with Thin Air up every other pull. This is a buckload of free MP. I often push LD more out of habit than neccessity because I rarely actually need it in wall to wall pulls, including the first AA pull where you start with zero lilies.

I honestly can't think of a reason why your scenario would be so common but I'd like to hear it. Maybe there's something I can help with so tanks using immunity benefits you instead of stressing you out.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

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You are really doing your best here to make it sound like you're always getting raged at no matter what you do but I'm calling bullshit here.
Getting raged at for doing everything right?
Come on.
Enough of the pity party.
If you really get this much negative feedback, maybe the problem doesn't actually lie with all the bad people out there who are never satisfied no matter what you do and rage at you for absolutely no reason.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

This is the first time I've ever heard a WHM complain about having MP issues, but looking at your stuff I can see a few issues that you have, such as NOT using Presence of Mind during a fight, or not using Assize as much as you could.

This is going on the one E4 fight, of course, so I don't know how it compares to everything else you do - but during said fight you didn't use Presence of Mind, missed 5 possible Assizes. You also missed out on all Temperance mitigation, Divine Benison mitigation, and Asylum healing & healing increase - meaning they were never cast.

This is also the first time I've heard a healer complain about tank invulns. (outside of Living Dead, which is a major resource dump.)

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I won't deny that I often fail to use certain abilities. Things like Temperance, Benison, and Asylum are because either the other healer (in double healer format) gets theirs off before I do, and I don't want to waste mine, or simply because I don't always get the timing because I'm focusing on a different problem (or in the case of Asylum, the party isn't stacked or is moving too much for it to be worth the use). Much like Bene, Assize I save for specific situations. It's my first reaction AoE heal to while I get into position to hit PI + Rapture or Medica II. It's also my reaction to specific AoE effects. Temperance I just haven't figured out the best way or timing to use yet. It's a long cd, so I don't want to risk hitting it and then have it run out without doing anything. Benison, I've really only started to figure out the best uses for that recently. I try to get it out in time for tank busters, but that requires knowing which tank is going to take something to their face, which I can't always tell in enough time to react (I can't see "target of focus", only "target of target" which doesn't help unless I'm actively targeting the boss).

My idea of "OOM" is "I have less than 40% mana" because I know I'm going to have to res people, and that costs 2500 MP, after which I'm going to have to burn at least two instant casts OR hardcast a Cure II (another 1000MP) on them. My problem with tank invulns is *only* with Living Dead/Superbollide. The rest of them? I love them. Paladin's dropping Hallowed Ground? Awesome, I can toss them a Regen while I take a few seconds to stabilize the dps who have been standing in fire. Warrior's hitting Holmgang? Same thing. Pure invuln is not an issue. It's the ones that require me to dump a ton of resources in a very small amount of time that are a problem.

And in the case of big pulls (which is what this thread was originally about), it's about tanks who don't even use a basic defensive, and then expect the healer to pick up their slack. That's where mana issues come in.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

This is also the first time I've heard a healer complain about tank invulns. (outside of Living Dead, which is a major resource dump.)

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Everyone complains about Living Dead. It's a very clunky skill.

There actually are players who get mad when someone does better than them, the term "Tryhard" tends to get flung around.

Apparantly it hurts their egos when someone performs better than them, so they have to lash out and tear that person down for daring to do a better job.

Fortunately they are fairly rare, but it only takes one.


And mutually exclusive demands are also a thing, where you are pulled in two separate directions and no matter which way you go people will get upset with you, because you cannot please everyone and it only takes a few ragers to ruin your day.

Giving one person what they want will piss another person off, and sometimes it turns out they did not want what they thought they did and then get mad at you for giving them what they asked for once the negative consequences of their desire manifest themselves. Because there is no such thing as taking personal responsibility for bad ideas that backfire, nope, gotta put the entirety of the blame on the people who did as you told them to do.


Disbelieving their existence won't make unpleasable jerks spew any less vitriol, if anything it just gives them an advantage because then you are not expecting them when they show up to ruin your day.

Heck, there are plenty of examples of ego-tripping jerkwads acting unreasonable in the big thread of duty finder horror stories.

I respectfully disagree with you completely.

Big pulls are usually the norm in endgame dungeons (50, 60, 70, 80). Certain leveling dungeons in between there could be big pulled, but not always. It gets kind of risky if people aren't geared properly. As a healer main, I usually fall asleep when tank small pull in the endgame dungeons. I feel bored, it's just mashing 2-3 buttons over and over. Big pulls feel fun, it makes me more alert because the tank is taking more damage, and dps can aoe the mobs down. It's better on everyone's time to do big pulls in the bigger dungeons. I can understand when it's new content, and no one knows where they can big pull the first day or two. That's different, but after that? Big pulls please! Makes runs 10x faster.

If I tank, I usually ask if the healer wants big pulls. If they can't handle it, then it's small pulls. Communication goes a long way when you have to do pugs in DF. But usually pug tanks will big pull regardless. As others said, the tank sets the pace, but don't get offended when others start complain about being bored. It's different if you're still learning the dungeon, but people will get bored with baby pulls.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's what I meant. It's an exception to the "larger pulls go faster" because the DPSes aren't killing the pack any faster if they can only attack one enemy at a time. It just means the healer has to spam heals instead of contributing to DPS - and the tank being an alt in Lv15 armour was hardly helping things.

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Exception to my previously-stated exception: it is very dependent on what level the tank is, and what gear they are wearing.

Just had much the same situation in Copperbell but with a tank in Shire gear, and it was far more successful. Eos could still handle most of the healing and I could still DPS.

So on the off chance you're reading this, Mr I-just-want-to-pull-the-entire-dungeon... yes you can, but not in your squishy Lv15 armour with (IIRC) a lancer and arcanist for DPS.

I think SE did a good job of gating the pulls. It's difficult to pull an amount that would be "too much" in a lot of dungeons, especially in later content like SB and ShB, since the trash is close together and gated in such a way you need to clear reasonably sized pulls before moving on.

In earlier dungeons I can see how someone might pull too much for the gear they have and the abilities available, but at the same time the mobs don't pose as much of a threat with limited abilities either. I usually only see this happen when someone new to tanking who hasn't geared up for their level tries to emulate what they saw a geared/experienced tank do in an earlier run.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

It's not something that is rallied behind, it's a matter of fact inherent in the game design. The tank pulls, therefore the tank can choose to pull one pack or multiple. Having said that, just because a tank pulls large packs doesn't mean that the tank is good. Bad players exist and are a completely separate argument from the "big pulls should be the standard" argument. You should be watching the tank, you should know when they are playing badly, and if they call you out, call them out back, it's not the tank you need to convince, its the other DPS who share the vote kick with you.

FYI, bad players rarely accept fault in DF, whether they are tanks, DPS, or healers.

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Getting into arguments inside an instance is a waste of time, and one I'm not fond of. It's EXTREMELY rare in an instance for me to say anything other than an auto translated "Hello!" and an auto translated "Good Job!" The exception is if someone asks for an explanation. Calling people out isn't my game unless they're wrongfully calling someone else out. Then I'll step in.

I also think if someone plays badly enough to warrant a kick, the other party members won't NEED to be convinced. They'd see it themselves.

In response to your FYI. Me and you were talking about tanks that's why I said 'the tank'.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Getting into arguments inside an instance is a waste of time, and one I'm not fond of. It's EXTREMELY rare in an instance for me to say anything other than an auto translated "Hello!" and an auto translated "Good Job!" The exception is if someone asks for an explanation. Calling people out isn't my game unless they're wrongfully calling someone else out. Then I'll step in.

I also think if someone plays badly enough to warrant a kick, the other party members won't NEED to be convinced. They'd see it themselves.

In response to your FYI. Me and you were talking about tanks that's why I said 'the tank'.

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This is all fair enough and is a perfectly valid personal stance to take, it doesn't change the fact that there is a big separation between acknowledging bad players and the idea that big pulls are bad however.

Sometimes the healer does it for the tank, then they cant even heal them. Happened to me and my tank friend today, not once but twice did the healer pull and couldn't keep my friend alive. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This is all fair enough and is a perfectly valid personal stance to take, it doesn't change the fact that there is a big separation between acknowledging bad players and the idea that big pulls are bad however.

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If I somehow made it seem like I thought big pulls themselves were bad I'm sorry. Cause that's not the case. As always it depends on the party. In my experience big pulls usually go alright. But for parties where they don't, if a member of the party keeps trying to push and push and push for something that the others can't handle, they are wasting an annoying amount of time. Unless they're your friends and they're ok with it. Or your random party mates are trying to improve themselves.

Clemency is NOT a dps gain. If it was, PLD's would be using it for optimization. It's not, therefore it's a dps loss.

I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but if a HEALER can't HEAL as well as DPS, then they are bad healer, literally you have so many cooldowns this should never be an issue. Tanks using MITIGATION properly can allow healers to dps easier.

People on these forums suggest these beta playstyles that screw over players that actually believe this garbage is worth following. It's not. PLD's, for the love of god, Clemency is a clutch tool to be used during savage and ultimate prog... you should NEVER have to clemency yourself during a pull. Free healing that WAR, DRK, and GNB can do is fine... but don't cuck your magic rotation by Clemency'ing yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Clemency is NOT a dps gain. If it was, PLD's would be using it for optimization. It's not, therefore it's a dps loss.

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I believe the conclusion drawn was that Clemency in place of a Cure 2 is an rDPS gain because healers AoEing will do more damage than a tank will in a single gcd. So it's a dps loss for the PLD but a dps gain for the party.

I just finished leveling my healer jobs. As an only decent at best healer, I can honestly say that small pulls are boring. Throw a shield/regen on the tank and spam a single damage spell. If I had to use an actual GCD heal on any tank past Sohm Al, I knew it was time to check their gear. I won't run ahead and pull on my own, because honestly, I'm lazy, but c'mon, if you're not getting melted, you can pull more.

I smell a troll post

Relative to a single GCD of healing, using Clemency is absolutely dps loss. However, Req-Clemency is far stronger than Cure II (1800 potency versus the 910 for Cure II or 877.5 for Adlo, etc). Two healer GCDs do 364 (Holy/Grav) to 416 (AoW) potency. A single Reg-HC is 375. This puts them very close when 2 non-Lily GCDs would be required, but never if less than 2 GCDs are needed.