Tactful ways to inform people that they're playing badly?

You just have to not be rude or a s-bag about it. Some people will still kick off or not listen. But a lot of the time people are trying and don't mind feed back as long as its constructive without trying to put anybody down.

If people get the wrong end of the stick, explain that your intention is to try and help rather than put them down as everybody has to start somewhere.

I get varying results with this approach, but I feel it is at least earnest and also not rude. People are less likely to listen if you are a butt about it, chances are they'd play bad to annoy you then.

But I feel if doing it this way and they're defensive, you're not going to win in any scenario because they fact they're not playing as good as they thought they were has hurt their ego. Then you can sit with "at least I tried"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vulcann

i have always said this in every game

if you are not in the guild that they are in or friends with you. then just shut up and deal with them sucking, you are a nobody and why should i take advice from a nobody? why people feel the need to give unsolicited advice is beyond me. I play paladin and on my summoner i have seen some terrible paladins, but its not my place to tell them because i am not an expert at the class either ... and you are probably not an expert or as good at the class you play that you think you are.

---

While I don't agree with the way this is said, I agree with the sentiment behind it.

The following concerns regular content only, not raids, extreme, savage etc...

This is a video game some people play to relax after a hard days work, it's not a second job. The last thing they want is to deal with unsolicited advice, they deal with that all day at work. They don't want to deal with any sort of BS, especially not from a stranger they are unlikely to ever meet again.

Secondly, some people are bad for a reason, it can be anything from simply having slow reaction time, or bad mechanical skills, or people having some form of disabilities.

For example I'm 50, and some encounters with tons of DDR mechanics are starting to be really challenging to me. Stuff that would not have been an issue 10-20 years ago are hard now. I used to play most video games on normal or hard setting, and for the last few years it's been on normal only, and recently I had to go to easy mode on some games, realizing I'm not getting any younger. I'm not going to stop playing video games though, love them too much even if they are getting harder, or feel like they are. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valderen

For example I'm 50, and some encounters with tons of DDR mechanics are starting to be really challenging to me. Stuff that would not have been an issue 10-20 years ago are hard now. I used to play most video games on normal or hard setting, and for the last few years it's been on normal only, and recently I had to go to easy mode on some games, realizing I'm not getting any younger. I'm not going to stop playing video games though, love them too much even if they are getting harder, or feel like they are. :)

---

One of the people in my linkshell is in her 70's and has arthritis, she only plays DPS roles. She plays started playing with her daughter and loves it.

I don't think there is any harm in people asking if people want help or advice or giving it up if things aren't moving so well. But people need to be mature enough to accept if there is a reason for it, for most content it's not the end of the world and is just one of those things.

I fit into the category of hopping on after a hard day's work just wanting to take it at a chill pace because my attention span has gone. One reason I don't do anything serious on work days, I know I'm not at my best performance if half paying attention. That said, I am at work right now distracted by these forums... Maybe paying half attention is something I do here too. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valderen

This is a video game some people play to relax after a hard days work, it's not a second job. The last thing they want is to deal with unsolicited advice, they deal with that all day at work. They don't want to deal with any sort of BS, especially not from a stranger they are unlikely to ever meet again.

---

Why does the "it's not a 2nd job" argument come up anytime someone mentions they expect partymembers to deliver an acceptable performance? Would you join a band as a drummer that's not even trying, and when they're like "dude wtf, play properly" you go "Nah I just do this to relax, I get people telling me what to do all day at work, so suck it up"...what? ^^ Then go play alone in your garage, don't ruin it for 3 or 7 other people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

Why does the "it's not a 2nd job" argument come up anytime someone mentions they expect partymembers to deliver an acceptable performance? Would you join a band as a drummer that's not even trying, and when they're like "dude wtf, play properly" you go "Nah I just do this to relax, I get people telling me what to do all day at work, so suck it up"...what? ^^ Then go play alone in your garage, don't ruin it for 3 or 7 other people.

---

How are we defining acceptable performance? Like to me I don’t think it’s a huge deal if a typical dungeon run takes 20ish minutes instead of 15 minutes, now if a run if taking 30-45 minutes yeah sure maybe something needs to be addressed then. That being said outside I’ve trusts runs I’ve very, very rarely seen runs go that long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AleXwern

This is one of the most assbackwards thinking I've ever seen in my life. You literally cannot have an opinion or voice concern if you are not 101% expert.

---

to play Devil's advocate, I wouldn't want a half-baked healer (no shields/regens, massive overhealing, keeps running out of mana, etc) giving me healing advice. Even if I was in the learning phase of something I was trying for the first time, not all advice is good advice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vulcann

if you are not in the guild that they are in or friends with you. then just shut up and deal with them sucking [...]

---

Why aren't they playing with their own guild. Oh, I can figure out why...


You are describing the very few encounters where I even send away Selene so she would not accidently heal these people...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vulcann

i have always said this in every game

if you are not in the guild that they are in or friends with you. then just shut up and deal with them sucking, you are a nobody and why should i take advice from a nobody? why people feel the need to give unsolicited advice is beyond me. I play paladin and on my summoner i have seen some terrible paladins, but its not my place to tell them because i am not an expert at the class either ... and you are probably not an expert or as good at the class you play that you think you are.

---

i have always said this in every form of social interaction

if you are not in the same social group that they are in or friends with you. then just shut up and deal with them making social faux pas, you are a nobody and why should i take advice from a nobody? why people feel the need to give unsolicited advice is beyond me. I frequent several forums and on this forum i have seen some terrible social misteps, but its not my place to tell them because i am not an expert at social interactions either ... and you are probably not an expert or as good at the social interactions that you think you are.

use the auto-translate feature and call them a "donut" every time they make a mistake.

It's a game, you shouldn't be taking it so seriously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SerLuke

How are we defining acceptable performance? Like to me I don’t think it’s a huge deal if a typical dungeon run takes 20ish minutes instead of 15 minutes, now if a run if taking 30-45 minutes yeah sure maybe something needs to be addressed then. That being said outside I’ve trusts runs I’ve very, very rarely seen runs go that long.

---

That's simple: people are doing their best and trying to using the kit offered by their class as their skill level allows it. It does not even have anything to do with how long a dungeon is going to take.

I don't mind have to wipe all the times a player needs to learn a boss as long the person communicate and ask for tips and/or is willing to listen to them. I also don't mind to do smaller pulls is the healer needs them because of any reasonable reason. However, I really mind when a DPS refuses to do AoE, in ShB there are zero reasons for not using it, or a healer spamming Cure/Physic on me when is not needed or standing there doing anything.

Same for tanks refusing to adapt to the needs of the party making the run take longer and/or bad usage of CDs. I think we can also add DPS doing really low damage, my own standard is low/mid-green.

Just out of respect for the other player in your party putting the bare minimum of effort should be the norm. Sadly, is usually not and the excuse is always a variant of "does not matter".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

That's simple: people are doing their best and trying to using the kit offered by their class as their skill level allows it. It does not even have anything to do with how long a dungeon is going to take.

I don't mind have to wipe all the times a player needs to learn a boss as long the person communicate and ask for tips and/or is willing to listen to them. I also don't mind to do smaller pulls is the healer needs them because of any reasonable reason. However, I really mind when a DPS refuses to do AoE, in ShB there are zero reasons for not using it, or a healer spamming Cure/Physic on me when is not needed or standing there doing anything.

Same for tanks refusing to adapt to the needs of the party making the run take longer and/or bad usage of CDs. I think we can also add DPS doing really low damage, my own standard is low/mid-green.

Just out of respect for the other player in your party putting the bare minimum of effort should be the norm. Sadly, is usually not and the excuse is always a variant of "does not matter".

---

I was using completion time as diagnosis in my question if something is causing the dungeon run to go 30-45 minutes yes there is some sort of problem that needs to be addressed but like I said that’s been very, very rare in my experience, and not sure what low/mid green means.

While I agree that no one should jump aggressively on others because of their performance, carrying those who somehow got to lvl 80 without a clue of how their classes work should not be a thing.

https://i89.fastpic.ru/big/2019/0918...4650ef8404.png

E4. Summoner was new and was dying to everything, no one else was new or dying. (Not to brag) I was second on dps THE ENTIRE FIGHT.
Not knowing a new fight is fine. But you SHOULD know at least some basics of the class you're playing by the time you get to 80.
How do you tell them they are not doing good? After E4 you can unlock savage already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhus

Sounds like you're trying to channel your inner Emet-Selch.

"You are a mistake. For we who have known perfection, this shattered class and these parses are ghastly mockeries of the true player" or something like that.

---

i love when people's egos are hurt and they get all up in arms over this statement. its not an edgy statement its literally the truth. i ran 5 duties last night in roulette, if you put a bunch of players in front of me today and told me to pick out my group members ... i would have no idea. that's the point I couldn't tell you Y'dyalani Rhus from XXSephirothXX sixninesixnine to Waifu McAnimeName to Kloud Stryfe to Jayna Proudmore. so why would i take advice from you? for all i know you could be the worst player in your guild the player that no one wants to take, or you could be the type that everyone immediately messages to get in their group/raid.

no one besides your guild/clan or friends know you so i ask again why should i take unsolicited advice from you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SerLuke

I was using completion time as diagnosis in my question if something is causing the dungeon run to go 30-45 minutes yes there is some sort of problem that needs to be addressed but like I said that’s been very, very rare in my experience, and not sure what low/mid green means.

---

FFLogs colour code for "ranks".

In any event I have a learning disability if I’m on a job I’m leveling with I have a hard enough time keeping track of/practicing my own rotation rather than looking at what someone else is doing, for this I’m greatful I can’t parse on PS4 I don’t want to nitpick what other people are doing as long as we’re clearing whatever dungeon we are running in a reasonable amount of time I’m fine with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AleXwern

This is one of the most assbackwards thinking I've ever seen in my life. You literally cannot have an opinion or voice concern if you are not 101% expert.

---

its actually not, most people in real life actually do not like unsolicited advice especially from non-experts. they are just nice about it and smile and nod at you maybe saying "oh yeah i'll look into that" which is the nice way of saying "yeah ok whatever you don't know what you are talking about"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SerLuke

In any event I have a learning disability if I’m on a job I’m leveling with I have a hard enough time keeping track of/practicing my own rotation rather than looking at what someone else is doing, for this I’m greatful I can’t parse on PS4 I don’t want to nitpick what other people are doing as long as we’re clearing whatever dungeon we are running in a reasonable amount of time I’m fine with it.

---

The other Day in Expert Roulette, wall to wall pulls, my AOE DPS was ~26k, while our BLM was at ~7k. Do I know how to play BLM? Nope. But I still know that they were definitely doing something wrong :P Did we get through the dungeon without problems? Yes. Still, someone doing only 20% of what they should be doing does not classify as a "nitpick" ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

The other Day in Expert Roulette, wall to wall pulls, my AOE DPS was ~26k, while our BLM was at ~7k. Do I know how to play BLM? Nope. But I still know that they were definitely doing something wrong :P Did we get through the dungeon without problems? Yes. Still, someone doing only 20% of what they should be doing does not classify as a "nitpick" ^^

---

Okay I'm genuinely curious how in the world a BLM can have such low dps in expert dungeons ! Even if they weren't AOEing it should be higher... and BLM is so easy, especially when AOEing... oh my gosh x.x This is why I support giving advice in-game even if it isn't "serious content" because that person is likely going to try and go into said "serious content" and I guarantee they won't have a pleasant experience. Nor will the others that are forced into dealing with.... that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikuMitsuko

Okay I'm genuinely curious how in the world a BLM can have such low dps in expert dungeons ! Even if they weren't AOEing it should be higher... and BLM is so easy, especially when AOEing... oh my gosh x.x This is why I support giving advice in-game even if it isn't "serious content" because that person is likely going to try and go into said "serious content" and I guarantee they won't have a pleasant experience. Nor will the others that are forced into dealing with.... that.

---

Yeah, they should be able to obliterate my DPS, even whan half-assing it. Still I have no clue how the class works so I wouldn't be able to give them any advice. We still got throught at an OK'ish pace so I just rolled with it.

Quote:

---

Okay I'm genuinely curious how in the world a BLM can have such low dps in expert dungeons ! Even if they weren't AOEing it should be higher... and BLM is so easy, especially when AOEing... oh my gosh x.x This is why I support giving advice in-game even if it isn't "serious content" because that person is likely going to try and go into said "serious content" and I guarantee they won't have a pleasant experience. Nor will the others that are forced into dealing with.... that.

---

BLM has a lot of options when it attacks, many of which cause people to stray into suboptimal rotations. There are a lot of ways for BLM to screw up, and it shows a lot in the DF. "Ice mages" are just one of the ways this can happen; they're just the most egregious form of it.

I wouldn't call it a simple job; it's simple to *you* maybe because you play it. Most other jobs outright highlight the next GCD you should take by making its icon get a glowy outline. BLM doesn't really do that, and the few times it does get a glowy outline (Thundercloud, Firestarter, Foul/Xeno), it still doesn't mean it's an action that should be used right away. In fact, usually it isn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

BLM has a lot of options when it attacks, many of which cause people to stray into suboptimal rotations. There are a lot of ways for BLM to screw up, and it shows a lot in the DF. "Ice mages" are just one of the ways this can happen; they're just the most egregious form of it.

I wouldn't call it a simple job; it's simple to *you* maybe because you play it. Most other jobs outright highlight the next GCD you should take by making its icon get a glowy outline. BLM doesn't really do that, and the few times it does get a glowy outline (Thundercloud, Firestarter, Foul/Xeno), it still doesn't mean it's an action that should be used right away. In fact, usually it isn't.

---

I don't actually play BLM that often... mostly WHM and leveling NIN. It doesn't matter anyway - the AOE is literally 4-5 buttons baseline. Keeping your buffs up is almost braindead. The opener and rotation are pretty obvious to figure out if you read the tooltips and look at a guide. And if you're doing expert dungeons or higher, you should look at guides and know how to play your class.

As a relatively new player, two months in, I'll just say you can level up really quickly if you hit up the leveling roulette every day... and what I've played of the story so far, it's not very difficult/demanding. I'm a 50 DRG and a 40 PLD just from playing very casually by MMO standards.

I say this because I think it's pretty easy to get to level 50+ content and not know how to play your class optimally.

I personally try and soak in as much knowledge as I can but optimal ability rotations are still a pretty foreign concept to me (cooldowns in particular, attack combos are pretty straightfoward). I'm always open to advice so maybe I'm the exception and not the rule... but if someone came to me with a "how the hell did you get this far without knowing that" attitude, I may not be particularly receptive to that. Thankfully I haven't run into many unfriendly people and I've had some enlightening experiences running dungeons... but I'm also not too far in the MSQ yet so we'll see how higher level content goes lol.

...

Oh, and 99% of the guides you find floating around out there are horribly outdated. Even stuff from a year or two ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dreakon13

Oh, and 99% of the guides you find floating around out there are horribly outdated. Even stuff from a year or two ago.

---

Yep, jobs can change drastically each expansion and sometimes in between, randomly. Usually the guides found on The Balance have beginner guides to jobs as well as endgame optimization, so you dont have to overwhelm yourself until you feel ready to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

The other Day in Expert Roulette, wall to wall pulls, my AOE DPS was ~26k, while our BLM was at ~7k. Do I know how to play BLM? Nope. But I still know that they were definitely doing something wrong :P Did we get through the dungeon without problems? Yes. Still, someone doing only 20% of what they should be doing does not classify as a "nitpick" ^^

---

I mean that’s pretty odd that someone isn’t aoeing at 80 in ex roulette, yeah that would be worth mentioning since it’s can significantly slow the run down. By nitpicking I meant more along the lines of yelling at someone for casting Foul in Fire stance instead of ice, I know I struggled with BLM when I was lvling but I played around with it in Heaven on High and Trust dungeons and it helped I had a super BLM friend that helped explain how to play it and maintain enochin and what not. Those triple Flares and Triple Fire IVs were quite fun...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dreakon13

Oh, and 99% of the guides you find floating around out there are horribly outdated. Even stuff from a year or two ago.

---

Not to be rude but is it that hard for some people to type in "*job name* rotation guide 5.0/5.x" ? So they don't get outdated stuff?

Don't. Just kick them. Me personally, I've reached my thresholds trying to reason with stupidity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikuMitsuko

Not to be rude but is it that hard for some people to type in "*job name* rotation guide 5.0/5.x" ? So they don't get outdated stuff?

---

would a new player know to do that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

would a new player know to do that?

---

Know what? How to google?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

would a new player know to do that?

---

You can see I was talking about Expert dungeons and higher content earlier, not sure newbies are doing that. Besides, I managed to look up those guides just fine despite only starting this game a week before ShB came out since... I know how to use google lol

you can't really, a lot of NA players go through multiple classes 1-80 and never read their skills, they just don't want to because they know you will carry them.
Want to do something about it? leave. more than half the time these dead weights will freak out on you and report you, they don't understand what theyr e doing wrong and they don't want to

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikuMitsuko

Not to be rude but is it that hard for some people to type in "*job name* rotation guide 5.0/5.x" ? So they don't get outdated stuff?

---

As someone who has never really gotten deep into an MMO before, only been playing for two months or less, and didn't start using the forums until recently... I wouldn't have really known 5.0/5.x was a necessary identifier for searching since I didn't realize the game completely changes every year or two, and I wasn't really keeping tabs on version numbers. Nor that cycling through abilities was referred to as a "rotation", or that such management was required for high end content, honestly.

If you solo story content and only really do dungeons as required (and/or do the roulettes but stay quiet and effective enough to not get called out)... this stuff wouldn't really come up until it's too late potentially.

( EDIT: Guess that's the end of this conversation. There's a daily post limit based on level? lol That's unexpected. )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dreakon13

If you solo story content and only really do dungeons as required (and/or do the roulettes but stay quiet and effective enough to not get called out)... this stuff wouldn't really come up until it's too late potentially.

---

If said person ever steps out of dungeons or 24-mans, they will be made aware quite quickly as groups will disband and flock to the wind to avoid the bad player. Or someone will call them out and risk being rude/reported/whatever. Best option in-game is ask your friends or FC mates for advice on w/e role you want. After that, seek guides once you understand the gist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhus

Sounds like you're trying to channel your inner Emet-Selch.

"You are a mistake. For we who have known perfection, this shattered class and these parses are ghastly mockeries of the true player" or something like that.

---

This is why people should read through the full thread before replying. I would've missed this gem if I went straight for the last page.

As for the topic at hand though, more often than not trying to tell a random player they're not playing optimally usually ends up with them getting offended over it. As multiple posters have stated before, it's usually not worth trying to force the issue. Offer a suggestion and if they don't want to hear it, either leave and try again with friends or suck it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Know what? How to google?

---

This sort of comment is what the thread's about. You're replying regarding a new player 2 months into the game, always open to advice and the welcoming ff14 communities response is "lol can't even google". The same unhelpful sarcastic comments are why "bad" players don't listen in dungeons.

If a player being fully open to advice and tips isn't good enough for you, what on earth do you want?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

This sort of comment is what the thread's about. You're replying regarding a new player 2 months into the game, always open to advice and the welcoming ff14 communities response is "lol can't even google". The same unhelpful sarcastic comments are why "bad" players don't listen in dungeons.

If a player being fully open to advice and tips isn't good enough for you, what on earth do you want?

---

I don't see a problem. You can find ANY info on the Internet. If you don't understand something irl, you ask someone who knows or you Google it. Not everyone has time to babysit every new player they meet. Not every new player will even try to listen to more experienced one at all.
Some new player get so used to others jumping around them left and right (*but new player*) so they don't even try to learn anything about the game themselves. And then we see these *aw he's a new player* at lvl 80 doing less dps than a healer. But ofc you're not allowed to tell them that they are not doing well and need to change things. And they get kicked silently. Because by the time you get to 80 you SHOULD know basics and rotation of the class you play. And you can find that info on the Internet. If you're interested enough.
Don't get me wrong, I respect every player in this game, new, veterans, etc and I understand that everyone needs their time. But as myself being new back in HW I was looking for every bit of info I could get, Google, people in DF, asking friends. Because I didn't want to be a burden for people who played that game for years, so finding info is not hard.

^Exactly. I recently picked up BLM for the first time, and I didn't enter a single dungeon until after I had looked up and learned the rotation, and had an understanding of the class as a whole.

I just don't get why people are okay with playing so badly that they are a burden. When I die/mess up my rotation/do a mech wrong, I feel absolutely terrible about it.

Whereas others won't even look at their tool tips, or use AoEs in dungeons. I just don't know how they can slow everyone else down, and just be fine with it.

How often are you guys getting into dungeons where you actually feel burdened? I mean I’ve had an occasional bad DF run but the times I’ve actually felt like I was burdened have been extremely rare. I keep reading about this stuff on the forums but given how rare I actually see it in game the situation feels a bit exaggerated. I’m much more put off by someone having a bad attitude than I am someone still learning their job/rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renka777

i just had a healer who was doing nothing but healing on a 76 lvl dungeon,an astro player and he was not even using a single divination,i was very very frustrated

i needed to go let go my frustration so i told him what i think about his "gameplay" right after the last boss death(without any bad words) and i left instantly,if i was with friends he would be instant kicked after the 1st pulls/boss ,i absolutely HATE players like that

---

Dude you need to chill out, you hate someone for just healing as a healer, in a video game? Sure they should be DPSing but this is a freaking video game bad play should not cause you to hate the other person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renka777

i just had a healer who was doing nothing but healing on a 76 lvl dungeon,an astro player and guess what.. he was not even using a single divination,i was very very frustrated

i needed to go let go my frustration so i told him what i think about his "gameplay" right after the last boss death(without any bad words) and i left instantly,if i was with friends he would be instant kicked after the 1st pulls/boss ,i absolutely HATE players like that

---

Oi...you said it yourself - you're not playing with friends, so why the grief? If you're in PF with random players I think, as the more skilled/invested player, you ought to be more flexible or lenient with those who may be giving a poor performance. The really is no reason to HATE someone for doing their job, even if they're only putting in minimum effort. Did you try to give them a bit of advice or suggest something different? Trashing them in a passive-aggressive manner after the last boss and abruptly leaving doesn't help anyone. You haven't learned anything from the MSQ...because to me you don't exemplify any virtues of the Warrior of Light at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dreakon13

As someone who has never really gotten deep into an MMO before, only been playing for two months or less, and didn't start using the forums until recently... I wouldn't have really known 5.0/5.x was a necessary identifier for searching since I didn't realize the game completely changes every year or two, and I wasn't really keeping tabs on version numbers. Nor that cycling through abilities was referred to as a "rotation", or that such management was required for high end content, honestly.

If you solo story content and only really do dungeons as required (and/or do the roulettes but stay quiet and effective enough to not get called out)... this stuff wouldn't really come up until it's too late potentially.

( EDIT: Guess that's the end of this conversation. There's a daily post limit based on level? lol That's unexpected. )

---

Well, I'm not exactly a Vet (started a week before ShB) and I managed to figure out the patch name sooo, I don't know what to tell you honestly. And it really doesn't matter because if you're about to do something called 'Expert', 'Savage', 'Extreme', etc then by that time you should know your class and know how to look up up-to-date guides. I cannot understand people who get to level 80 not knowing their class at least at the very base level.

And if you're not doing that content, and not even level 80, then idk why you're quoting me since I am clearly talking about expert+ content.