The Problem with Paladin

Accuracy is down a lot in general, what weapon were you using? Not sure if mog blade alone is enough to get back to ~99% accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Treach

Accuracy is down a lot in general, what weapon were you using? Not sure if mog blade alone is enough to get back to ~99% accuracy.

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I was using a Cobalt Winglet with Enmity materia, so i have +5 acc. I don't think mog weap will do much difference. :/ Is really messed up, i use to build hate with Rage and now just don't work.

Very interesting topic to the OP BTW.

What I am curious about is that since the jobs were meant to define a certain role in a PARTY
if Paladin is not "Working as intended"

I would assume since Gladiator is designed around solo play, that it would work well at all the points you listed
(MP Recovery, Second Wind, Feather Foot etc)

Since Paladin is meant for Party play, it will only be optimal in a party setting. As well, I'm not sure that
Paladin was actually listed as an UBER TANK that some think it should be.

1. Cover (Protect Ally)
2. Skill where if the PLD is healed, others around it are healed (Protect Ally)
3. Healing an Ally heals the PLD

While it can't take a beating that the WAR can take, what it can do is protect other party members.
Even the Glad can't protect allies as well PLD, but it is a slightly better Tank.

MP issues - since it should be in a party with BRD anyways, "Working as intended?"

Let's hear some more posts on how you feel on this topic

Just for more clarification on how I view this:

Warrior ='s Uber Main Tank
Paladin ='s Secondary Support Tank, or Close quarters fighting where allies are taking a lot of Damage despite the main boss being tanked by Warrior

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Originally Posted by HoolieWho

Do you really rely heavily on your MP to stay alive as PLD? I don't. I rely on a WHM's MP to stay alive. Bolded exaggerations like this don't do anything to help your case in this thread.

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As I have stated before, I only really use my cures when my WHM has informed me they won't be curing me for whatever reason. The "MP issue" i'm stating is merely in comparison to GLA - all of PLD's self-sustainability moves (aside from Aegis Boon, which both GLA and PLD get) require MP. GLA on the other hand has plenty of different moves that don't require MP, and can also recover it itself. I did mention the uselessness of PLD having cures (in the current state they are in) in my 3rd point.

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Originally Posted by Riaayo

This effectively nerfed Paladin's ability to hold threat with cures because more often than not the Paladin's own heal won't hit themself until their healer has already topped them off. Since many boss mechanics can take half a tank's HP off, no healer is going to let a tank ride at 80% hp for the tank to top themselves off for more enmity.

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As Riaayo mentions (and I mentioned in point 3), PLD curing itself now suffers from good WHMs. Due to it's low HP and lack of damage reduction, PLD essentially needs to be topped off frequently. This is the primary role of the healer, so it's no surprise when you go to cast Holy Succor (especially noticeable with it's longer casting time) on yourself and cure for 0. I like some of Riaayo's suggestions, and thought that addition to FFXI was fairly solid.

My point here is that all this adds up to switching from GLA to PLD loses some key utility moves (free heal, force evade, etc) and gains healing magic which is rendered nearly useless under normal circumstances. Sure, succor is meant for others, but for me at least, the WHM typically just cures others before I can as well (and everyone has a way of curing themselves at this point).

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Very interesting topic to the OP BTW.

What I am curious about is that since the jobs were meant to define a certain role in a PARTY
if Paladin is not "Working as intended"

I would assume since Gladiator is designed around solo play, that it would work well at all the points you listed
(MP Recovery, Second Wind, Feather Foot etc)

Since Paladin is meant for Party play, it will only be optimal in a party setting. As well, I'm not sure that
Paladin was actually listed as an UBER TANK that some think it should be.

1. Cover (Protect Ally)
2. Skill where if the PLD is healed, others around it are healed (Protect Ally)
3. Healing an Ally heals the PLD

While it can't take a beating that the WAR can take, what it can do is protect other party members.
Even the Glad can't protect allies as well PLD, but it is a slightly better Tank.

MP issues - since it should be in a party with BRD anyways, "Working as intended?"

Let's hear some more posts on how you feel on this topic

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You mention Cover and Divine Veil. Personally, the use of cover is very limited as I've haven't had many issues with hate that a Provoke/Flash couldn't fix (aside from having a WAR in the party). It has been mentioned by other posters as well that cover is essentially useless right now (someone mentioned they used it on great buffalo, someone responded saying provoke just got hate back fine). Divine Veil is utter garbage. WHM already gets regen, and while this stacks with it, it relies on a somewhat clunky predictive system where you need to be guessing that the WHM will cure you soon, and that you'll be taking damage after that (I tried it in Ifrit - after having the WHM trigger it, Ifrit starts running around). The suggestion that it hits others around the PLD often in regular end-game party play actually means it only hits the PLD (it's quite rare for others to be near them - look at the distance difference from just the front of Ifrit to the back of Ifrit, for example).

I would argue GLA can protect others just as well as PLD, if not better. GLA can protect itself, and can use cure more often than a PLD can due to MP recovery. Even if the GLA is just healing itself, the enmity over time and freedom that gives to a WHM contributes to overall party security. PLD get's nothing in terms of enmity generation over GLA, which I would have actually understood (sacrificing survivability for being able to hold hate that much better to make up for WAR's epicness).

You mention BRD - as I keep addressing (and did in my OP) GLA can have a BRD in it's pt as well. This GLA is less reliant on one song (ballad) and could perhaps request a different one (DD power for more enmity, regen to make things easier) if they can't find a use for the extra MP. I would say reliance on a specific job should not be "working as intended". As I've said before, parties already rely on having to find a WHM and a tank (I really hope WAR tanking doesn't get nerfed, but PLD tanking gets buffed) - I personally don't want to also HAVE to find a BRD for everything I do.

In my opinion, for things short of the equivalent of HNM and longer "farming" type events (as in things like Dynamis in FFXI) I don't think BRD should be required. BRD in most cases should be a boost that speeds things up and makes everything go smoother. Since GLA and PLD can do almost the same thing (personally I feel as though the abilities PLD loses are better than the ones it gains for tanking anyway), and PLD needs a BRD where GLA would benefit from but not rely on a BRD.

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Originally Posted by Riaayo

I'll go ahead and throw out the problems I see with Paladin as of 1.21

Firstly, 1.21 "fixed" cures overhealing (healing a target for more hp than they were lacking). This effectively nerfed Paladin's ability to hold threat with cures because more often than not the Paladin's own heal won't hit themself until their healer has already topped them off. Since many boss mechanics can take half a tank's HP off, no healer is going to let a tank ride at 80% hp for the tank to top themselves off for more enmity.

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Great post. The idea with the shield on overheals is a great idea especially since paladins get an HP nerf. It would nicely cover this weakness.

I do agree that paladin AoE hate is weak. I think they should lower the cooldown and effectiveness of wardrum. Something like a ten second cooldown and half the hate it builds now would make it really nice.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

Great post. The idea with the shield on overheals is a great idea especially since paladins get an HP nerf. It would nicely cover this weakness.

I do agree that paladin AoE hate is weak. I think they should lower the cooldown and effectiveness of wardrum. Something like a ten second cooldown and half the hate it builds now would make it really nice.

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This would be nice if GLA/PLD blocked outside of Aegis Boon. Unfortunately, this would be a nerf and result in less overall enmity as things stand right now.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

You mention Cover and Divine Veil. Personally, the use of cover is very limited as I've haven't had many issues with hate that a Provoke/Flash couldn't fix (aside from having a WAR in the party).

Divine Veil is utter garbage. WHM already gets regen, and while this stacks with it, it relies on a somewhat clunky predictive system where you need to be guessing that the WHM will cure you soon. The suggestion that it hits others around the PLD often in regular end-game party play actually means it only hits the PLD (it's quite rare for others to be near them - look at the distance difference from just the front of Ifrit to the back of Ifrit, for example).

GLA can protect itself, and can use cure more often than a PLD can due to MP recovery. Even if the GLA is just healing itself, the enmity over time and freedom that gives to a WHM contributes to overall party security. PLD get's nothing in terms of enmity generation over GLA, which I would have actually understood (sacrificing survivability for being able to hold hate that much better to make up for WAR's epicness).

BRD

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So I highlighted all the nice points you listed that further show that PLD is only a support tank and not a main tank.

You can pretty much forget any issues with MP on PLD. Playing as a support Tank, they most likely wouldn't run into MP issues as they are not constantly trying to hold hate and heal themselves.

SE - We will create a job system to give players a definate role during party battles

Players - Oh great

PLD ='s Support Tank
WAR ='s Main Tank
BRD ='s Party Support and buffs (DD)
ETC.

As an Alchemist I would love to see people buying up Ethers for their MP Woes. I mean it's 20% mp regen Max 600. and the cool down is 4 min.

SE put these items into the game for a reason. ^^

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Originally Posted by Phobos

This would be nice if GLA/PLD blocked outside of Aegis Boon. Unfortunately, this would be a nerf and result in less overall enmity as things stand right now.

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Actually, paladins block quite a bit on AoE pulls in stronghold. I was able to spam phalanx on each mob to try to hold hate on each, but yea the block rate on bosses is pretty low.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

So I highlighted all the nice points you listed that further show that PLD is only a support tank and not a main tank.

You can pretty much forget any issues with MP on PLD. Playing as a support Tank, they most likely wouldn't run into MP issues as they are not constantly trying to hold hate and heal themselves.

SE - We will create a job system to give players a definate role during party battles

Players - Oh great

PLD ='s Support Tank
WAR ='s Main Tank
BRD ='s Party Support and buffs (DD)
ETC.

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The problem is this is not how things were "meant to be" and as WAR is actually an incredible DD, it's being the best tank is rather ridiculous.

Quote from SE stating what they intended to happen with PLD (I quoted this earlier in the thread too)

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

A master of sword and shield, the gladiator is a melee specialist who excels in defense. Though his individual blows do not deal great damage, he is able to deliver them in quick succession, a quality that has earned him a reputation for dependability. The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built.

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The execution of the job does not match the concept.

You are correct in what the jobs roles have become I suppose, but those roles are not what was intended. WAR tanking actually sacrifices it's DD potential by not allowing them to use all of their abilities. The idea should be that a PLD is holding hate off of them so they can use all of their abilities, using cover as a supplement to when this fails.

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Originally Posted by Headseed

As an Alchemist I would love to see people buying up Ethers for their MP Woes. I mean it's 20% mp regen Max 600. and the cool down is 4 min.

SE put these items into the game for a reason. ^^

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While I agree that Ethers are quite nice, and will likely get some. I feel as this should not fall under the "need" category but more the "want/emergency" category. I would think that these are starting to work more as potions work in single player FF games, so perhaps these will be more useable as the price-point becomes more reasonable (seems odd spending ~10k per ether, which was the price last I checked).

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

Actually, paladins block quite a bit on AoE pulls in stronghold. I was able to spam phalanx on each mob to try to hold hate on each, but yea the block rate on bosses is pretty low.

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I hear you, but I suppose I just feel like War Drum is also currently useful for enmity generation on bosses, so reducing the enmity given would be a detriment in those situations. AoE stronhold pulls I typically only tank until Steel Cyclone goes off anyway. After that there's usually some black magic going around that results in everything getting killed.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

Actually, paladins block quite a bit on AoE pulls in stronghold. I was able to spam phalanx on each mob to try to hold hate on each, but yea the block rate on bosses is pretty low.

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Also with Gridanian Blucker on stronghold pulls you will be blocking like once per second or more. Each block it reduce around 40% of the dmg so its great to have it. Also on THM or BLM you can use it while spaming Fire to survive a little more.

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Originally Posted by Signy

Also with Gridanian Blucker on stronghold pulls you will be blocking like once per second or more. Each block it reduce around 40% of the dmg so its great to have it. Also on THM or BLM you can use it while spaming Fire to survive a little more.

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I'll have to pick up a comparable shield as this seems like a good concept. I like the idea of needing multiple shields as the situation calls for it. In this case you use a smaller buckler shield for XP to get a higher block rate on multiple mob tanking. If Kite Shields and Scutums were better for single-target situations, but did not work as well on multiple mob situations, this would make tanking a bit more interesting and dynamic, IMO.

GLA/PLD should be first choice for tanking since they're not great at damage dealing.

On that note, what PLD and other jobs is missing is Job Specific Traits.

I recently purchased the Lominsan Lantern Shield and I have noticed an increase to my blocks. each company has a high block rate shield.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

GLA/PLD should be first choice for tanking since they're not great at damage dealing.

On that note, what PLD and other jobs is missing is Job Specific Traits.

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This, I think, could be the key to "fixing" PLD. Better blocking, better enmity, better defense would all go a long way to helping it's case.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

This, I think, could be the key to "fixing" PLD. Better blocking, better enmity, better defense would all go a long way to helping it's case.

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You are missing the Auto-Refresh. ;)

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Originally Posted by Signy

You are missing the Auto-Refresh. ;)

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No he's not.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Thank you everyone for your discussion and feedback regarding Paladin! We will be making adjustments based on all of your feedback. :)

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I saw in Reinhart's translation thread that Japanese players are wanting to know what the main concept of Paladin is. I'd like to know this as well before changes are made. I'd just hate for paladin to be changed because we're playing it wrong or something.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

No he's not.

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You're right, I'm not. Rather than mindless mechanics like "Auto-Refresh" right now I'd rather be rewarded for using abilities such as Outmaneuver to make up for minimal MP ammounts. I don't think we need a static X MP per second for free, unless some traits like that were rewards from more difficult quests expanding upon the job (don't just make it easier for unskilled players, or so that players don't learn how to play it before they get something like this). In other words, Auto-Refresh would be nice depending on how the game progresses (level cap increases, further job traits through storylines) but I don't think it's necessary right now.

Also as far as the Japanese players, I also saw that a lot of it on the first page that I google translated seem to be around the fact that the promised defense buff really isn't there. I don't want whatever the concept to PLD is to be changed, and I think the problem ultimately likely lies within defense and blocking. I would definitely rather they fix PLD so it matches with what their initial concept was, before making too many drastic changes to the job.

I still say some of the ability trade-offs are not worth it, but a buff in defense (and honestly magic defense too, seems very lacking right now) would definitely give us a valid reason to use PLD in parties. I think the reason this was difficult is because a tank is inherently a decent soloer, so when you remove solo effectiveness going from GLA to PLD, the loss of tanking ability needs to be made up somewhere; defense, in this case.

GLA should be better at dragging a fight out and stalling
PLD should be better at taking damage in general, by sacrificing self-heals and stalling moves and putting their trust primarily in their WHM.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

I saw in Reinhart's translation thread that Japanese players are wanting to know what the main concept of Paladin is. I'd like to know this as well before changes are made. I'd just hate for paladin to be changed because we're playing it wrong or something.

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I'd also like to know what they plan to change BEFORE they change it, you know, just in case.

Hi Phobos and All,

Great thread with many great ideas. :) I definitely agree with most of the ideas here.

While I was really looking forward to Paladin, compared to Warrior and what you lose from switching from Gladiator (Class) to --> Paladin (Job), there needs to be some key adjustments.

(These were all mentioned in some form on this thread, but I wanted to show my support and let the Development Team know that we have another "vote" to fix Paladin)...

• Paladin needs a Significant Defense Boost. It was stated in his current Job Description from Square that Paladin should be the highest Defense role, but compared to Warrior or just going on Gladiator, it's not noticeable enough.
  
  I was helping on multiple AF Fights (going on Paladin with multiple instances of friends going on Warrior) and the damage they took while still being able to tank really marginalized Paladin (especially with the much higher Damage Dealing ability of Warrior).

• Paladin needs a greater Enmity Boost (inherent to the Job). If Yoshida-san wants to keep Paladin as the "main tank," there needs to be greater threat generation. Whether that's a global boost to all Enmity Values on all actions used on a Paladin, or some other method, something should be done here.

• Paladin needs increased Block Rate (globally). When Warrior can deal out massive Damage with attacks and Weaponskills, and still Parry, *and* use Featherfoot for Evade, the Paladin's Block (w/ Shield) needs to be a more effective ability than it is right now.

• Also agree that Paladin should have at least one ability that helps them gain *some* MP back (nothing that would invalidate Bard, but something like Featherfoot was useful helping Gladiator get some MP back every so often).

• Increase Duration and Add Enmity to "Hallowed Ground." I know it's not a "2 Hour" (like Invincible in FF11), but a slightly increased duration for Hallowed Ground and a big Enmity Bonus would be a nice way to make this a more standout move for Paladin.

• Consider adding in 1 AOE (Area-of-effect) Weaponskill (like Gladiator's old Circle Slash II) that could help *just a little bit* when tanking Multiple Mobs better. Yes, we have Flash and War Drum, but it still feels that Paladin has very little else to do to help tank multiple mobs (it doesn't have to be anywhere close to Warrior (that's fine), but Paladin is weak in this facet of the game)).

And like Phobos and others have said, I *don't* want them to nerf Warrior (I have fun playing my Warrior as well); I'm hoping they just balance it so that Paladin is a standout Job that's marked by very noticeable High Defense that can shrug off damage better than Warrior.

Here's to hoping Yoshida-san looks at everyone's feedback on Paladin and we get some improvements soon. :)

Thanks~

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Phobos and All,

Great thread with many great ideas. :) I definitely agree with most of the ideas here.

While I was really looking forward to Paladin, compared to Warrior and what you lose from switching from Gladiator (Class) to --> Paladin (Job), there needs to be some key adjustments.

(These were all mentioned in some form on this thread, but I wanted to show my support and let the Development Team know that we have another "vote" to fix Paladin)...

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All of these are great ideas. As you mentioned, some were touched on in this thread but I think your post fleshes out what a lot of us are trying to get at here, and offers some distinct improvements that should be made. I feel like a combination of at least 2-3 of these concepts would be a great start, so that there is not too much of a change at once (we don't want to go to the other end of the spectrum, where PLD is very overpowered and nothing can stop a party with one). I think even some of these could apply to GLA as well, but with PLD doing them better (block rate and an AoE Weaponskill)

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Phobos and All,

Great thread with many great ideas. :) I definitely agree with most of the ideas here.

While I was really looking forward to Paladin, compared to Warrior and what you lose from switching from Gladiator (Class) to --> Paladin (Job), there needs to be some key adjustments.

(These were all mentioned in some form on this thread, but I wanted to show my support and let the Development Team know that we have another "vote" to fix Paladin)...

• Paladin needs a Significant Defense Boost. It was stated in his current Job Description from Square that Paladin should be the highest Defense role, but compared to Warrior or just going on Gladiator, it's not noticeable enough.
  
  I was helping on multiple AF Fights (going on Paladin with multiple instances of friends going on Warrior) and the damage they took while still being able to tank really marginalized Paladin (especially with the much higher Damage Dealing ability of Warrior).

• Paladin needs a greater Enmity Boost (inherent to the Job). If Yoshida-san wants to keep Paladin as the "main tank," there needs to be greater threat generation. Whether that's a global boost to all Enmity Values on all actions used on a Paladin, or some other method, something should be done here.

• Paladin needs increased Block Rate (globally). When Warrior can deal out massive Damage with attacks and Weaponskills, and still Parry, *and* use Featherfoot for Evade, the Paladin's Block (w/ Shield) needs to be a more effective ability than it is right now.

• Also agree that Paladin should have at least one ability that helps them gain *some* MP back (nothing that would invalidate Bard, but something like Featherfoot was useful helping Gladiator get some MP back every so often).

• Increase Duration and Add Enmity to "Hallowed Ground." I know it's not a "2 Hour" (like Invincible in FF11), but a slightly increased duration for Hallowed Ground and a big Enmity Bonus would be a nice way to make this a more standout move for Paladin.

• Consider adding in 1 AOE (Area-of-effect) Weaponskill (like Gladiator's old Circle Slash II) that could help *just a little bit* when tanking Multiple Mobs better. Yes, we have Flash and War Drum, but it still feels that Paladin has very little else to do to help tank multiple mobs (it doesn't have to be anywhere close to Warrior (that's fine), but Paladin is weak in this facet of the game)).

And like Phobos and others have said, I *don't* want them to nerf Warrior (I have fun playing my Warrior as well); I'm hoping they just balance it so that Paladin is a standout Job that's marked by very noticeable High Defense that can shrug off damage better than Warrior.

Here's to hoping Yoshida-san looks at everyone's feedback on Paladin and we get some improvements soon. :)

Thanks~

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100% agree on all points. I'm leveling warrior as well, and while Warrior should have the ability to take some hits, Paladin should always be the go to tank imo. At least we've got Hallowed Ground, but i'm not sure how long that lasts.

Paladin doesn't need an AoE damage weapon skill, though an increase to war drum hate would be nice. If you were to fix block rates and the outmaneuver trait return for MP to be useful, paladin could "tank" multiple monsters through others by using heals more often and cover, since the presence of multiple monsters usually means they won't be hitting for numbers that are spectacularly lethal to others, and those two abilities (Succor and Cover), in addition to rampart, and I guess flash blind and shield bash stun, are fine for a paladin's supporting CC in crowd fights because they generally have their numbers reduced fairly quickly.

While paladin does need a lot more defense and block rate and block power, just because, you shouldn't also give him the defacto-perma hate on everything through an easily spammed weapon skill and hate stealing tools like Warrior has gotten. Paladin doesn't need to always have hate on trash or crowds because he has the tools to help others in harm's way, and the tools will become better once you fix the paladin's primary problem, mitigation through blocking and MP recovery from outmaneuver, though if they want to make cover a faster cooldown that's fine too. Warrior doesn't have these tools, and he can't help others outside of Collusion.

In general though, it should just have higher defense and take less damage than others, period. 10 VIT from the jobstone isn't anything at all, and the AF is actually worse than crafted items in DEF values. The boots are also terribly statted and don't enhance anything, could probably raise that block rate up to +10 or 12. Maybe bring back damage cuts on Gallant Surcoat, either a flat -5%, or something like how the Creed Cuirass +1 and 2 did in XI, where the damage taken reduction scales up as you generate more and more enmity on a target, to a cap of around 10%. This would help with bosses more heavily than most trash monsters (due to their speedy deaths and lower enmity figures, or in the case of a flat percentage, lower damage values) which is where I think paladin needs the most help.

A 60 second recast on Spirits Within would be cool too.

Any testing or answers on what "Enhances Cover" does on Gallant?

Hi Phobos, Teknoman and Stu,

Definitely agree.

I was thinking about this a bit more: So far every Job (in 1.21) has some standout characteristic - the Black Mage drops some impressive and gigantic Ancient Magic (BOOM!) :), the Dragoon has Jump and Elusive Jump and stylish Polearm-based Attacks, the White Mage is a paragon of Healing / Curing, etc. (and you see them casting Cures and Regen and restoring, etc.) - but the Paladin?

The Paladin is supposed to be "the Tank," the one that can stand in the face of devastating attacks, and just Defend / Block and withstand all the onslaught thrown at them, and stand up to it (and look stylish doing it).

But currently, the Paladin doesn't fit that image very well at all (and you see them taking heavy damage from various Bosses), and as Stu said, the Paladin AF Armor is pretty weak in some pieces. Seeing them get hit and take nearly as much damage as a Warrior, and get dropped in some battles pretty easily, but without the ability to drop massive Weaponskill Combos like a Warrior (nor Parry or Featherfoot, etc.)., just really stood out in my mind as clear picture of what's wrong with Paladin.

I really hope we get some fixes soon.

I doubt that any "fixes" (good or bad) will come until atleast 1.21a.

What bothers me about all of this is that SE has to test this stuff right? They have to KNOW that its horribly broken right? If they do test it then it means they either don't care or don't know what they are doing. If they don't test it then...they didnt test it!?

I remember hearing about opening up test servers or some such other along time ago. What happend to that? Lets get some REAL people in there to test this stuff before it happens!

I didn't read through every single post in here, but I agree that PLD should indeed be the paragon of tanking. I was wondering something though, not having PLD yet myself: What about Blissful Mind for recovering MP? I'm kind of confused as to why SE chose to keep that particularly useful CNJ action as CNJ exclusive, considering PLD will be using as much MP as they are now.

I think this+the above suggestions would make PLD the ultimate go to tank! Please SE {Can I Have It?}.

Blissful Mind would be ludicrously overpowered on other classes that could use it.

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Any testing or answers on what "Enhances Cover" does on Gallant?

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We originally thought that Enhances Cover made Cover last the entire duration, but I guess it does that normally?

My guess would be maybe it increases the range of Cover or increases your Defense while you're Covering, or maybe it does some thing with transferring enmity from the Covered target to you like recent changes to Cover in FF11. Maybe this mysterious AF bonus is part of what we need to take advantage of on PLD =P

Paladin needs more defense and HP. You have ways of getting mp back through assist of other jobs like ballads, sanguine right and also outmanuever. But when I have to stack HP gear to hit 4k hp and a war already has it and can focus on DD/enmity gear it makes it much easier for the war to tank anything right now in the game. Also I think blocks need a revamp right now, block rate is fine but the dmg you take from it is pretty poor.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Phobos and All,

blah blah

• Paladin needs a greater Enmity Boost (inherent to the Job). If Yoshida-san wants to keep Paladin as the "main tank," there needs to be greater threat generation. Whether that's a global boost to all Enmity Values on all actions used on a Paladin, or some other method, something should be done here.

blah blah

Thanks~

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How about a job trait which gives a boost to the enmity of flash, so that it makes it much greater than provoke.

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Originally Posted by Takinagi

Paladin needs more defense and HP. You have ways of getting mp back through assist of other jobs like ballads, sanguine right and also outmanuever. But when I have to stack HP gear to hit 4k hp and a war already has it and can focus on DD/enmity gear it makes it much easier for the war to tank anything right now in the game. Also I think blocks need a revamp right now, block rate is fine but the dmg you take from it is pretty poor.

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Block rate is not fine, it is extremely bad on bosses, aegis boon procs do not count towards actual procs btw. Damage taken from blocks does need to be fixed also.

Personally, I've had few problems with paladin, my advice as far as block rate is to go with a smaller shield. (ul'dahn hoplon and Lominsan lantern shield both have excellent block rates and decent enough defense for tank use) Kites and Scutums may absorb a ton of damage, but they also are heavy and have low block rates. It was like that in XI too.

As far as recovering MP goes, I think that was the intent, so that people would actually make use of items more frequently instead of just relying on thier skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Treach

Block rate is not fine, it is extremely bad on bosses, aegis boon procs do not count towards actual procs btw. Damage taken from blocks does need to be fixed also.

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Maybe you should stop wearing full AF and put on some more dex/block rate. I parry for way less damage on War then I block with a shield on Pld. I would show the my parse results but I don't have any saved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Takinagi

Maybe you should stop wearing full AF and put on some more dex/block rate. I parry for way less damage on War then I block with a shield on Pld. I would show the my parse results but I don't have any saved.

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even with full sentinel (the only block rate+ gear in the game) and the Ul'dahn hoplon my block rate is pathetic. Blocking needs to get fixed. Autoblock nerfed it down to the point where it was completely useless and people just tanked without a shield. Aegis Boon is a step in the right direction, but 1 block every so often is NOT blocking. You need to actually block, and often, paladin has a shield, its time SE let us actually use it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Takinagi

Maybe you should stop wearing full AF and put on some more dex/block rate. I parry for way less damage on War then I block with a shield on Pld. I would show the my parse results but I don't have any saved.

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Another "I block tons lulz" poster with no proof, awesome. Don't know how many posts I've made complaining about block rate on things that matter, like pretty much all boss level mobs around 57-58. Don't even know why'd you try and validate this bullshit claim when practically EVERYONE ELSE has been complaining about never blocking.

If you happen to be one of those people who think endgame is xp parties on natalan/zharak on weak level 50 mobs, then sure block rate is fine. Not like a naked CNJ couldn't tank those mobs.

At least you understand PLD AF is horrible, props for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Treach

Another "I block tons lulz" poster with no proof, awesome. Don't know how many posts I've made complaining about block rate on things that matter, like pretty much all boss level mobs around 57-58. Don't even know why'd you try and validate this bullshit claim when practically EVERYONE ELSE has been complaining about never blocking.

If you happen to be one of those people who think endgame is xp parties on natalan/zharak on weak level 50 mobs, then sure block rate is fine. Not like a naked CNJ couldn't tank those mobs.

At least you understand PLD AF is horrible, props for that.

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Eh, I think he treats Chimera as exp mob...

(Taki, since I'm nice to you, how to get last chest? /wink /wink)

http://i39.tinypic.com/qohqj5.png
Bladed Lantern Shield LV50 Drubber

http://i39.tinypic.com/9r0tc2.png
Vintage Kite Shield LV50 Drubber

No outmanuever or aegis boon, both tests I just stood there and got beat on for an hour straight. BLS has almost half the stats of VKS and yet suffers so little, practically saying shield stats do not matter against level 50 mobs, even more proving as dLV goes up stats need HUGE boosts to catch up just like defense, mEVA, magic crit and physical crit potency.

Going to assume block rate from dex ratio is either:
For every 3 dex you get 2 block rate (like atk:str and def:vit theories)
For every 5 dex you get 1 block rate (like healing magic from mnd and etc)

You see how much those shields matter right? Why would you assume stacking dex and the minor block rate we can get will have any real effect?

Also for fun, this is some the last ifrits I've done (1.20)
http://i39.tinypic.com/b55dmv.png
No aegis boon, BUT I used outmanuever ON CD and had 21 dex from rings and 16+ dex from whatever archer hands I had, can' remember which item but it doesn't matter. EDIT was wearing Vintage Kite Shield also.

Forgot to see how many of the actual attacks he made that you can block, which is ONLY the melee swings, but it's roughly 2 auto attacks for 1 TP attack (but tank doesn't get hit by cracks/jump), so lets assume 320ish auto attacks and 100ish TP attacks for roughly a 1% block rate this is probably close to the floor value which is probably 0% just like mEVA.

The entire formula behind block rate is broken to the point it is extremely ineffective against bosses, even if what I explained is not 100% correct it should be close or similar to other formulas people way smarter then me have discovered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ragz

Eh, I think he treats Chimera as exp mob...

(Taki, since I'm nice to you, how to get last chest? /wink /wink)

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Hey now, if he can assume I'm a full AF idiot then I can assume he is a endgame xp party person. Only fair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Treach

http://i39.tinypic.com/qohqj5.png
Bladed Lantern Shield LV50 Drubber

http://i39.tinypic.com/9r0tc2.png
Vintage Kite Shield LV50 Drubber

No outmanuever or aegis boon, both tests I just stood there and got beat on for an hour straight. BLS has almost half the stats of VKS and yet suffers so little, practically saying shield stats do not matter against level 50 mobs, even more proving as dLV goes up stats need HUGE boosts to catch up just like defense, mEVA, magic crit and physical crit potency.

Going to assume block rate from dex ratio is either:
For every 3 dex you get 2 block rate (like atk:str and def:vit theories)
For every 5 dex you get 1 block rate (like healing magic from mnd and etc)

You see how much those shields matter right? Why would you assume stacking dex and the minor block rate we can get will have any real effect?

Also for fun, this is some the last ifrits I've done (1.20)
http://i39.tinypic.com/b55dmv.png
No aegis boon, BUT I used outmanuever ON CD and had 21 dex from rings and 16+ dex from whatever archer hands I had, can' remember which item but it doesn't matter. EDIT was wearing Vintage Kite Shield also.

Forgot to see how many of the actual attacks he made that you can block, which is ONLY the melee swings, but it's roughly 2 auto attacks for 1 TP attack (but tank doesn't get hit by cracks/jump), so lets assume 320ish auto attacks and 100ish TP attacks for roughly a 1% block rate this is probably close to the floor value which is probably 0% just like mEVA.

The entire formula behind block rate is broken to the point it is extremely ineffective against bosses, even if what I explained is not 100% correct it should be close or similar to other formulas people way smarter then me have discovered.

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Nice data - I was actually going to start collecting some myself but I'm glad someone else has already.

On a side-note, I've kind of abandoned this thread as it's devolved. The last few pages (Kiara's post was probably the last truly on-topic post that sparked some nice discussion aside from yours) have been mostly repeats of previous pages (things like just use a BRD, ignoring the concept that GLA can also use a BRD, etc) and now this latest; people actually trying to claim block rate is acceptable here.

Not to mention, the assertion that smaller "high block rate lower damage reduction" shields are what people should be using - this was not the case in FFXI, and I would find it hard to beleive any other game wants people using dinky shields that are at best a glorified arm-guard. The extra damage reduction on larger shields should outweigh the more consistant block-rate of smaller shields. Otherwise, people wouldn't use larger shields.

I'd be curious to see some data of like, 10x Ifrit without Outmaneuver, and 10x Ifrit with using Outmaneuver every time it comes back up. My guess would be a 0.1~0.2% increase in block rate. I swear, I blocked more often on RDM in FFXI.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Can't seem to ignore such posts though, just drives me insane.