This video tells you why some people thought FFXIV 1.2. is a better MMO than 2.0

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11-30-2018, 04:16 AM
ShanXiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whanext

If you hate this game so much, why do you even play it? If 1.x is that great as you said, then why does 2.0 exist? What is the reason that the game failed before?

1.0 failed it's because it was far from finished, the V1 developers asked SE to delay the release date, but SE refused, because SE want fast money,
not because the 1.2x contents are bad,

For example, which Relic quest in 2.0 is the best & the most interesting you think? I think it's the first one(ilv90),
you have to go different place , beat different bosses.
but do you know that it was a water down version of the V1 Relic quest? V1 Relic quests are even better
the later relic quests(ATMA farming, light farming) are more and more boring

Another example: FATEs, guild leves, did you see anyone doing them in SB? no.
V1 had better open world contents, fiction leves(need a party to fight very strong mobs, rewards were good), beastmen strongholds(they are strong & they drop treasure box keys), NMs, open world guild leves for DOL DOH, etc.
NMs in V1 drop unique gears, but 2.0 NMs just give you some boring seals etc etc

I am not saying everything in 1.0 are perfect, the Moogle King battle in V1.0 was broken ,no strategy needed, just kite the moogles,
but the moogle keystone farming was fun, & it‘s a good party content for FCs

Why so many FCs died in 2.0, because 2.0 forces you solo every MSQ & Job quests,
because the DF, because the best rewards are in duty roulette
people will pick the easiest route,

What is the easiest lifestyle? Eat! Play! Sleep! repeat! is it good, no
You have to go to school even if you don't want to,
but after 10 or 20 years, the school life will become one of your best memory in your life
11-30-2018, 04:43 AM
Vidu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luluna

What gets me is how many people did not even play Version 1, yet they have a big opinion on how shit it was. If anybody says there where some good things they are shot down..everybody to their own.
I loved a lot of things from V1 yet there where bad things obviously, problem with FF14 now is that it does have issues and lots of aoe dancing is one of them. Endgame is glamour. I also feel there where lots of really nice things in V1. The opening scenes the music the look the feel everything hands down beats this version. I like the ease of the game now I can be a dirty casual if I want.

Its a little bit "funny" that you talk about the big opinions people have on 1.0 in this thread - considering that the OP has the strong opinion on how sh*t this game is and how much better 1.0 was.

Its true, I didnt play 1.0 - but I dont need to have played it to know that it was bad enough to almost bankrupt a big company like SE and thats telling me something. I dont doubt that 1.0 and specially later 1.x versions had good idea and brought some fun and enjoyment to people, though! But at the same time I have to assume that there just wasnt enough good and well executed ideas - or there would have been no need for ARR and a huge campaign about how this game is all fixed and better now.

So, what gets me is people who are completly stuck in the past that they need to mention how much better 1.0 was than what we have now at any possible and impossible occassion. I understand that people are still passionate about 1.0 and their memories with the game, but at the same time, people are passionate about the current FFXIV too and coming here to tell them "Hey, you're all wrong about your opinion and you ruined my game!" is maybe not the best way to go.
So, thank you for a post that can apperiacte both games! :)

In this context I'd also like to talk about something that has been on my mind for a few days now and that is how perfectly the whole difference between 1.0 and 2.0 (...and to FFXI aswell, actually) fits into the Final Fantasy series as a whole where no two games are alike.
My favorite FF, specially gameplay-wise, is FFX. If they'd asked me, every game would have worked like FFX! It was the first FF I ever played and I knew nothing about Final Fantasy being this globaly known RPG-series at that time, I dont think I had even heard about FF7 at all (forgive me, I grew up in a tiny village. We had more sheep than people and sheep dont play a lot of videogames - lack of thumbs, I guess, poor souls.)
So when I learned more about the game and got some of the older FFs, I was confused and disappointed at first. Why couldnt I just put other people onto the battlefield! Why were my summons only lame spells! Why didnt I get to controll Bahamut instead of my party?!
And I also learned that a lot of people who knew older FFS had issues with FFX - world-map gone, was a complaint that I read, for example.
It got even more intresting when my brother who had only played (but liked!) parts of FFX got an Xbox with FF13 - and hated it, because the battle worked nothing like FFX.
And while I have to admit that I never got into FF13 aswell, I played almost all other FFs (still missing 3 and - yes - 7! And I obviously never played FFXI) - and learned to apperiacte each of them for their own ideas and style and mechanics. Even if they were different from my beloved FFX and never quite good as that, I ended up loving each of those games for their unique ideas.

And I would imagine that its similar for FFXIV - if you think of 1.0 and 2.0 as "seperate games" and not so much as a continued game (which is, from all I know, kinda accurate, considering that they worked quite differently, right?).
Its not unuasal and actually rather a trademark of the FF-series to change the whole style from game to game - and I think thats kinda what happend here. No two FFs are the same - and FFs dont really compare to each other, specially not the later versions. If you talk about other game-series you can usually talk about things like "Oh yeah, part 1 did this and part 2 did it aswell, but added a little twist!" but FFs? Something more or less totally new each time - new world, new story, new characters, new music, new atmosphere, new gameplay - with a few recuring elements, obviously.
But you can grow to love each style!
...and if you cant, you can always skip the game that totally isnt to your taste. But playing a game and constantly telling yourself or even other people "This sucks, it all has to be different and just like my personal favorite FF!" wont do anyone any good. Each of us has their personal favorite FF, I believe. An FF, that we love dearly and that we dont like to see trashtalked (constructive critisms is okay, obviously!) - so I feel a bit sorry for all of those people who have 1.0 as their favorite FF and see it trashtalked (and because they cant play it anymore).
But at the same time, trashtalking the current game isnt a great way to go about it either and I think a lot of the backlash in this thread comes from the notion that the OP does that in most of their posts.

I'd love to seem some... mutual respect for all FF-games - and I have a great solution for everyone who doesnt like one of them, which ever one of them it might be: Dont play it.
11-30-2018, 04:46 AM
Vidu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShanXiv

What is the easiest lifestyle? Eat! Play! Sleep! repeat! is it good, no
You have to go to school even if you don't want to,
but after 10 or 20 years, the school life will become one of your best memory in your life

So, are you actually really missing the time of your life when you were at school and could just play MMOs and specifically 1.0 all day instead of having to work?
Is it really that, what you're missing?

...in that case: No game will ever bring that back. No game can make you 15 again and take away all your daily duties...
I'm just asking because I always assumed that thats a big part of the explantion of why people have so fond memories of old games: They remember being kids again, not having to worry about paying rent and bills and going to work - but only playing games all day long. Even if those games are worse than what we have today.
11-30-2018, 04:49 AM
ShanXiv

Even the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak in 2.0 alpha is better than what we have now

2.0 alpha, 3 different routes, 3 final bosses (you have to pick one):
https://i.imgur.com/1hECAHF.jpg

retail version:
https://i.imgur.com/yPwurRW.jpg

:cool:

2.0 gives you a lot of candies,
but after you taste them for a while, you will find that there's no much stuff behind it, the game is very shallow & simple
11-30-2018, 05:28 AM
Rymm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShanXiv

https://i.imgur.com/1hECAHF.jpg

Oh good lord, kill it with FIRE! Toto-Rak as it is now makes me want to gouge out my eyes every time it comes up in the duty roulette. I couldn't imagine how torturous it would be if it were even longer and more confusing. You have to realize there is a difference between your (clearly biased) opinions and unbiased fact. Not everyone is going to like the same things you do and just because you like something, that does not make it objectively better.
11-30-2018, 05:34 AM
Vidu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShanXiv

Even the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak in 2.0 alpha is better than what we have now

2.0 alpha, 3 different routes, 3 final bosses (you have to pick one):

So, tell me: Whats the impact of that choice? Why would you choose one over the other? Different loot? Different fights better for melee/ranged/caster?
What makes the choice intresting and meanigful? Or is it just "flip a coin"?

Coil T2 had a "good choice" - depending on you way to the boss you had different ways that would lead to different debuffs on the boss. It was relevant, you had to carefully weigh which DPS you had and who you wanted to buff.

How was Totorak a good choice?
11-30-2018, 05:39 AM
Enla

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShanXiv

Even the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak in 2.0 alpha is better than what we have now

2.0 alpha, 3 different routes, 3 final bosses (you have to pick one):
-snip-

:cool:

2.0 gives you a lot of candies,
but after you taste them for a while, you will find that there's no much stuff behind it, the game is very shallow & simple

You're mistaking needless complication with enjoyable depth. That kind of dungeon would work perfectly well in a single player game where the player can pause, take a moment to decide the best route for themselves, and path out the best course that they feel is appropriate. In an MMO though that kind of dungeon is only going to cause issues as you now have four people all wanting to go a specific way because it happens to be the fastest, nullifying the rest. Even in current Toto Rak there's entire rooms and routes with auracells that people outright avoid because it's the slower option.

Frankly if that was what one of the dungeons looked like in 1.0 I understand why people disliked it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vidu

So, tell me: Whats the impact of that choice? Why would you choose one over the other? Different loot? Different fights better for melee/ranged/caster?
What makes the choice intresting and meanigful? Or is it just "flip a coin"?

Coil T2 had a "good choice" - depending on you way to the boss you had different ways that would lead to different debuffs on the boss. It was relevant, you had to carefully weigh which DPS you had and who you wanted to buff.

How was Totorak a good choice?

And hell, didn't that ultimately devolve into just going down one route then waiting for the soft enrage to avoid some of the worst mechanics? At least that's how I remember when I joined during 2.4.
11-30-2018, 05:44 AM
ShanXiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandpark

There are two types of gamers.

The Rules gamer and the Role gamer.
The rules gamers want jobs and no classes, without jobs all of their characters blend into a generic adventurer class who acts as a sort of everyman. Without racial modifiers, choosing a race becomes a cosmetic choice with no lasting impact. Without strict faction memberships, guild quests become senseless and arbitrary. They love the strict combat script of this game that role gamers call jump rope.

The role gamers dislike a game having too many arbitrary rules, they feel hemmed in. If they can't choose a role they find desirable, the game is not worth their salt. Roles should be defined by decisions not rules.

On one hand, the rule gamer is right:
If you don't have rules and statistics, if you don't have attributes, classes, racial modifiers, and skill requirements, your role is undefined. That isn't role-playing, that's pretending the way kids pretend.
There's no hard limit to push up against, no consequences for your decisions, no meaning to any of your actions.

On the other hand, the role gamer is also right:
If the rules prevent you from playing a desirable role, what's the point of playing?
If there are too many arbitrary rules restricting your freedom of choice you're not really playing a role, you're just following a script. It might be a good action game, or a good strategy game, but it's not really a role-playing game if you can't make basic decisions about things like your character's skill development, what kind of armor they wear, or whether or not Derplander the WOL can reject his destiny and live in the cities as a drunk pimp with a Lalafell girlfriend and a gambling addiction.

1.0 was mostly role and little rule, now we swung over to the other side. All rule and little role. A great game has to have a balance between role and rule.

Guildleves remains as a repetitive sidequest and material gatherer option, in the most boring way associated with fetch quest rpgs, only they removed the long walk to return quest giver. It has basically been untouched since the beginning of 1.0 for the most part.

It has/had the potential to be a fast easy way to jump in and out of different styles of content solo or in a pre made group.
https://guildleveideas.webs.com/

My issue with fates, GW2 dynamic events, ESO anvils is immersion. Immersion is a suspension of your senses or beliefs.

So you can have immersion whether you have convenience or not, but that requires developers to think about what their mechanics mean. Which unfortunately for MMO’s tends to rarely happen.

There is too much “weird MMO crap” going on for me to get truly immersed the way I would with a single-player RPG.

By “weird MMO crap” I mean all the stuff MMOs seem to need to have to be MMOs.
Things like enemies that simply stand around all day in the same spot, never moving, simply waiting for someone to come and kill them.
And ones that respawn faster than their predecessor’s corpses de-spawn.
People standing around waiting to be the hero who saves the village by slaying the monster, only they can’t because someone else is slaying it right now (but don’t worry, there will be another monster along in a minute, and the village will need saving again).
Bar patrons who bounce up and down on the table for hours while waiting for this mysterious “group finder” thing to “pop” and yelling at the other patrons to queue.

I mention the immersion thing because that is something XIV Hamlet and FFXI beseiged got right. If it happens constantly and very conveniently, it is immersion sapping and loses it's flair and oomph. The wildlife and enemy AI from 1.0 was amazing and immersive. They had reasons to exists beyond being your experience points or a means to an end on a quest or material farm. Sure, some of their tendencies were weird and annoying, but it made the world feel more like a real place.

Fast travel, I love it and don't want to see it go. But it's whole point was to not force a player to waste time seeing the same static environment they have been through a thousand times. Maybe if the environment was not static, I wouldn't mind a temporary or out of the blue reason for it to be limited for a time being? Maybe the aether gets plugged due to an ominous storm, maybe the fog gets so dense it renders my mini-map useless for a bit, maybe the sun and moon get so eclipse I can barely see two feet in front of my face, or maybe at night a new race of vampires and evil beast come out to feast on my rotting corpse? If it is static, do not touch my convenience with a ten foot pole, thank you. Idk, perhaps there is random treasure chest that spawn rarely with a mini game to unlock it? What if once an eorzean month or year, a crater opens in the Sagolli desert and some ancient ruins reveal a lost civilization?

Well said,
You can often see some old school MMO players making good posts like this. thanks

I will say the "MMORPG is a service" concept is BS, it's an excuse for not knowing how to make a real MMO, bad gameplay & lack of imagination
11-30-2018, 05:49 AM
Vidu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enla

And hell, didn't that ultimately devolve into just going down one route then waiting for the soft enrage to avoid some of the worst mechanics? At least that's how I remember when I joined during 2.4.

Yep, pretty much - and even without enrage, you'd end with a "meta"-strat or route anyways. As always in games, actually.
So I'd be most curious to hear how 1.0 solved the problem of having one "meta" or "best" way and actually making this a choice and not "the one boss everyone always does and its two brothers that no one is ever intrested in".
11-30-2018, 05:52 AM
Nariel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rymm

Oh good lord, kill it with FIRE! Toto-Rak as it is now makes me want to gouge out my eyes every time it comes up in the duty roulette. I couldn't imagine how torturous it would be if it were even longer and more confusing. You have to realize there is a difference between your (clearly biased) opinions and unbiased fact. Not everyone is going to like the same things you do and just because you like something, that does not make it objectively better.

This !

Funny enough its the same for the two other "V1.x" dungeon for me, Toto rak make my eyes roll like no tomorow when he show up. Dzemael make me "Oh god why of all other dungeon it have to be this one..." and Aurum val its a no from me, I take my 30 min penalty rather than doing this again.
11-30-2018, 05:54 AM
Ilan

I get that the OP is trying to say that a dead game, which cost SE a ton of money for several reasons, was so much better than what we have now.

What i don't get is why the OP is still here if this game bothers him/her so much. I mean having an oppinion is one thing but paying for a game that i obviously and strongly dislike is something that i'll never understand.
11-30-2018, 06:11 AM
Valkyrie_Lenneth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vidu

Yep, pretty much - and even without enrage, you'd end with a "meta"-strat or route anyways. As always in games, actually.
So I'd be most curious to hear how 1.0 solved the problem of having one "meta" or "best" way and actually making this a choice and not "the one boss everyone always does and its two brothers that no one is ever intrested in".

1.x got around the meta by having the meta be "have everything leveled and geared, and if you don't, you cant do this"

You could switch jobs in dungeons, so people were required to have blm, mnk, and idr the others, just for cutters cry.
11-30-2018, 06:17 AM
Enla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

1.x got around the meta by having the meta be "have everything leveled and geared, and if you don't, you cant do this"

You could switch jobs in dungeons, so people were required to have blm, mnk, and idr the others, just for cutters cry.

That frankly sounds like hell...
11-30-2018, 06:18 AM
SerLuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

1.x got around the meta by having the meta be "have everything leveled and geared, and if you don't, you cant do this"

You could switch jobs in dungeons, so people were required to have blm, mnk, and idr the others, just for cutters cry.

So thankful for Yoshi P and the current dev team so we don’t have to deal with this kind of nonsense
11-30-2018, 06:19 AM
InkstainedGwyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enla

You're mistaking needless complication with enjoyable depth.

That seems to be a large problem these days. 90% of folks defending Eureka claim that detractors "can't handle the difficulty" and it's not difficulty. It's the same repetitive motion, over and over again, for 3 hours. If I wanted that I'd go clean my attic. The same dungeon with different paths is just a normal dungeon v hard version of the same dungeon. After you've run them both enough times it's still just boring.
11-30-2018, 06:29 AM
Sigma-Astra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theplatter

This is entirely based on opinion. 1.x (IMHO) sounded far more original than ARR, which for the most part, felt like it pulled from so many other popular compositions (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, etc.). Like so many other aspects of the game - original races aside - the music of 1.0 felt like it was trying to be different and have its own character, while still feeling very Final Fantasy. HW music (again, IMHO) was a vast improvement over ARR, but even it sounded like it pulled liberally from other sources (Secret of Mana, Kingdom Hearts, etc.). Unfortunately, SB music seems to be the worst of the bunch, with the main theme being greatly overused with little variance.

The reason that 1.0 felt like it was trying to be "different" was because there was no musical direction in 1.0 at all, the music was all over the place. They went to Uematsu and basically just said "Here's a game, now make some music for said game", and that was it. That's not really because of originality, it's because there literally was no art direction concerning the musical scores. They basically just took whatever Uematsu put out, put a stamp on it, and threw it into the game. And the one part that isn't entirely based on opinion is the fact that 1.0 does not use real instruments. It's all synthesized and fake, and you can hear the difference between listening to a 1.0 soundtrack and XIV one where Soken changed aspects of it.

As for the main SB theme being used a lot throughout the game, that's called a motif and something that gets used a lot in music composition generally. Soken has done that since ARR, it was lightly noticeable in HW, but SB's theme is just a very easy melody to hear than the HW theme with a very distinctive pattern of notes.

Regarding your snippets and nitpicks over ARR pulling inspiration from other renowned musical talents, I'm not sure how you think that's a bad thing again (I'm also not sure how anything in XIV sounds like Star Wars to you).

/shrugs
11-30-2018, 06:33 AM
Theplatter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

The reason that 1.0 felt like it was trying to be "different" was because there was no musical direction in 1.0 at all, the music was all over the place. They went to Uematsu and basically just said "Here's a game, now make some music for said game", and that was it. That's not really because of originality, it's because there literally was no art direction concerning the musical scores. They basically just took whatever Uematsu put out, put a stamp on it, and threw it into the game. And the one part that isn't entirely based on opinion is the fact that 1.0 does not use real instruments. It's all synthesized and fake, and you can hear the difference between listening to a 1.0 soundtrack and XIV one where Soken changed aspects of it.

As for the main SB theme being used a lot throughout the game, that's called a motif and something that gets used a lot in music composition generally. Soken has done that since ARR, it was lightly noticeable in HW, but SB's theme is just a very easy melody to hear than the HW theme with a very distinctive pattern of notes.

Regarding your snippets and nitpicks over ARR pulling inspiration from other renowned musical talents, I'm not sure how you think that's a bad thing again (I'm also not sure how everything in XIV sounds like Star Wars to you).

/shrugs

Thank you for your well-constructed response, that was unfortunately soiled by your last statement - I never once said that everything in XIV sounds like Star Wars. It was listed as one of Soken's sources of inspiration that I heard in ARR.
11-30-2018, 06:35 AM
Sigma-Astra

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShanXiv

Well said,
You can often see some old school MMO players making good posts like this. thanks

I will say the "MMORPG is a service" concept is BS, it's an excuse for not knowing how to make a real MMO, bad gameplay & lack of imagination

I played old school MMO's too and let me just say that it's not a BS concept. I'm tired of spending 5 years to get even a small centimeter of progress into Goal A. Gamers evolve alongside technology and the current trends.

XIV as it is now is a breath of fresh air where I don't need to spend months to years to achieve something because no one has that kind of time anymore to waste on one video game.

We all thought it was fun to grind back then because it was the only thing we had and the only thing we knew.

We're all smarter now. You can either move on with the rest of us, enjoy life, and enjoy the way MMO's have changed...or you can stay in the past clinging to something that's never coming back.
11-30-2018, 06:37 AM
Sigma-Astra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theplatter

Thank you for your well-constructed response, that was unfortunately soiled by your last statement - I never once said that everything in XIV sounds like Star Wars. It was listed as one of Soken's sources of inspiration that I heard in ARR.

Ah, sorry, I meant "anything", but my brain typed "everything". Still, I'm still not sure what you heard that reminds you of Star Wars. I can't think of any track that comes to mind close towards that type of style anyways.
11-30-2018, 06:41 AM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShanXiv

2.0 gives you a lot of candies, but after you taste them for a while, you will find that there's no much stuff behind it, the game is very shallow & simple

If you truly feel this way then why are you paying your sub? You're wasting your time and money on a game you clearly do not enjoy. Do you hate 2.0+ so much that you're willing to pay real money just to complain about it?
11-30-2018, 06:59 AM
Theplatter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Ah, sorry, I meant "anything", but my brain typed "everything". Still, I'm still not sure what you heard that reminds you of Star Wars. I can't think of any track that comes to mind close towards that type of style anyways.

Teleport into Little Ala Mihgo at night and you'll swear Luke's aunt and uncle were just murdered. I'm aware it's not John Williams' score note-for-note, but the inspiration is still very much there.
11-30-2018, 06:59 AM
Nalfein

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nestama

I've been thinking... why doesn't OP just move to one of the more English speaking servers? Like Tonberry and (I think) Masamune? Assuming they don't speak Japanese, of course.

Masamune mostly Japanese speakers Nestama, he'd have better chances finding people speaking English on Tonberry yes.
11-30-2018, 07:14 AM
Nestama

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duskane

I still belive its just an account to troll on
Since this is there alt and are afraid there main will be banned for some reason.

Most likely the case. They're either ignoring anyone who disagrees with them, or doubles down because they can't accept that 1.0-1.23 is a bad game.
I get that 1.23 was an improvement over 1.0, but if a game isn't drawing in new customers despite being free to play for X amount of time (I forget how many months), then it's still a failure and a waste to keep working on. How many people were even playing 1.23 before the server closed?

I've yet to even get a clear answer on whether OP even does Extreme (or Savage) content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalfein

Masamune mostly Japanese speakers Nestama, he'd have better chances finding people speaking English on Tonberry yes.

Ah. I was trying to remember if there was a second English speaking server on the Japanese data centres and my mind was thinking "Masamune probably." Either because "Sephiroth had that sword and he's popular so maybe?" or I heard that's where an English community was some years ago... or my brain made things up again. Either way, Tonberry still an option ;)
11-30-2018, 07:27 AM
Nalfein

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nestama

Ah. I was trying to remember if there was a second English speaking server on the Japanese data centres and my mind was thinking "Masamune probably." Either because "Sephiroth had that sword and he's popular so maybe?" or I heard that's where an English community was some years ago... or my brain made things up again. Either way, Tonberry still an option ;)

Yes right, years ago some of my friends moved to Tonberry for raid. Back in those days there were still people speaking English on the server, nowadays not so much though.
11-30-2018, 10:04 AM
Sandpark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I played old school MMO's too and let me just say that it's not a BS concept. I'm tired of spending 5 years to get even a small centimeter of progress into Goal A. Gamers evolve alongside technology and the current trends.

XIV as it is now is a breath of fresh air where I don't need to spend months to years to achieve something because no one has that kind of time anymore to waste on one video game.

We all thought it was fun to grind back then because it was the only thing we had and the only thing we knew.

We're all smarter now. You can either move on with the rest of us, enjoy life, and enjoy the way MMO's have changed...or you can stay in the past clinging to something that's never coming back.

I agree 5 years is too long to get any kind of progress, but at least if it did take that long you would have something you worked hard for with sustainability that is not just a skin. What is the shelf life of content being relevant if you can get everything it offers in 3-9 months?

I played XI 8 years. But it took me roughly 3 months to get a max level character and about a year and a half to get the awesome gear I wanted from Sky. People say they have no time to waste on one videogame. Everyone has the time, more gamers game than ever before. This is the cheapest form of prolonged entertainment in the industries.Not everyone chooses to invest in one game but some do.

A subscription based persistent rpg by design is to get the highest amount of subscribers possible, but even more important is how many subscribers you can keep subscribed over a long period of time.

That census from Blancho I keep seeing has the sub base alternating between 400-750k subscribers. That's about 200k above peak what XI had and nowhere near Wow's prime of what was it 12 or 14 million? That is still pretty good but out of the 14 million purchasers of XIV, only 800k sub long term or leave and get replaced. So while the game is overall healthy it also not maintaining a 1/3 of all purchases. What does that mean??

That alot of people tried XIV and a bunch left for greener pastures, but players still unsub and return in a decent cycle.

I don't want one goal to take 5 years in one game, but I sure as hell want long term goals. I have 10,000 single player games for short term goals and novelty. But if one game can give me multiple long term goals and they have a different progression and a sense of novelty in new things so I am not doing the same thing I have done since first playing. I am all in. That is why I play mmorpgs in the first place. Endless content, endless ways to progress, and a lifetime of fun and friends to journey with. No single player game can hold a candle to that even if it amazes more in short spurts.

Edit:
The one thing I do like about how this game short shelf life system works is it saves me money and gives me more time to spend on other games. So I agree with you on that front. I mean I lose my house everytime I stay unsubscribed for awhile, lost three houses so far lol. But if there was more variance in content, good variance. I would never unsubscribe.
11-30-2018, 10:42 AM
Sigma-Astra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandpark

I agree 5 years is too long to get any kind of progress, but at least if it did take that long you would have something you worked hard for with sustainability that is not just a skin. What is the shelf life of content being relevant if you can get everything it offers in 3-9 months?

Point #1 Well, for one (haha, pun, don't shoot me), the shelf life of the current content for XIV is fine for me because I still don't have all of my characters with maxed out jobs, perfect ilvls, alts finished, etc....the point of these modern MMO's is to take breaks in-between and not shovel everything it offers into your mouth like an all-you-can-eat buffet. That's not what they're for. I've been playing XIV for 5+ years since then and still don't have everything it's offered. Yoshi had already explicitly said in live interviews for players to take frequent breaks and to not focus their entire attention span on one single game because no game designer, especially for MMO's, will ever be able to produce enough content as fast as the masses eat it up. If something doesn't last you for longer than 3 months, that's a personal issue with yourself, not with the game itself. You are moving too fast and I get it that some people really love XIV and want to play it, but brute forcing everything in a matter of months is not what XIV's content is made for. I worked very hard, too hard, in vanilla Ragnarok Online, and for what? It took me years to grind out my best armor sets with cards, get my favorite classes to level 180. Nothing I did in that game is anything to write home about and after I graduated college, I dropped it for better hobbies. Grinding out for a set of wings and while having them at that time did make me feel great, it's nothing but a nostalgic memory now, and something best stayed as a memory. Nothing more than that.

Quote:

I played XI 8 years. But it took me roughly 3 months to get a max level character and about a year and a half to get the awesome gear I wanted from Sky. People say they have no time to waste on one videogame. Everyone has the time, more gamers game than ever before. This is the cheapest form of prolonged entertainment in the industries.Not everyone chooses to invest in one game but some do.

A lot of this can be answered with my first point, but to counter the bold parts specifically. You can't make that judgemental call, and you really can't speak for everyone that they have the time for XI's nonsense, for 1.0's nonsense, for any old-style MMO's nonsense in this day and age. To be frank, neither can I, but I'm only speaking about myself, I'm not going to tag on "everyone" and make generalized sweeping statements as you have done. It really doesn't matter that more people, young and old, play more games than ever before. That doesn't mean that they have more time, it just means that the appeal and variety of genres has shifted, the target audience for games has shifted. Video games used to be recognized as children only hobbies, but now it's been recognized that even adults from varying ages and backgrounds have interest in them, that both genders have interest in them. A lot has shifted since the early and late 90's. I run a very tight, household ship. I have so many games to play and not enough time to do them. I work two jobs and take care of three other people plus myself. The way modern MMO's have shifted works for my lifestyle and I believe that modern and future game designers have recognized that nowadays, life can be very short to live in this era. In childhood, it made sense to have grinding mechanics since children would have the MOST free-time on their hands aside from school, but now we have adults making a large portion of the gaming target audience, people who work, take care of families, have other hobbies, and play on their spare time. That's what the gaming industry is targeting, people with mild to average free-time...not people who have an over-abundance of it anymore.

Quote:

That census from Blancho I keep seeing has the sub base alternating between 400-750k subscribers. That's about 200k above peak what XI had and nowhere near Wow's prime of what was it 12 or 14 million? That is still pretty good but out of the 14 million purchasers of XIV, only 800k sub long term or leave and get replaced. So while the game is overall healthy it also not maintaining a 1/3 of all purchases. What does that mean??

Take it to mind that it's not an official census and critically, there's really no way to get an accurate or official representation of the game's health and playerbase status. This is all a guessing game. Also, it's kinda unfair to prop anything against WoW since it was an anomaly for it's time. Both XIV and WoW will bleed and gain subs with an on and off ratio, similar to the ocean's tide. It will have its ebb and flow. It's a natural cycle.

Quote:

I don't want one goal to take 5 years in one game, but I sure as hell want long term goals. I have 10,000 single player games for short term goals and novelty. But if one game can give me multiple long term goals and they have a different progression and a sense of novelty in new things so I am not doing the same thing I have done since first playing. I am all in. That is why I play mmorpgs in the first place. Endless content, endless ways to progress, and a lifetime of fun and friends to journey with. No single player game can hold a candle to that even if it amazes more in short spurts.

It's fine to set long term goals for yourself in any scenario, but setting long-term goals won't help if you're consuming content faster than they can make it. Regarding the idea of endless content in MMO's, eh...I wouldn't call it endless, but it's definitely with a higher longevity than single player games.

Quote:

The one thing I do like about how this game short shelf life system works is it saves me money and gives me more time to spend on other games. So I agree with you on that front. I mean I lose my house every time I stay unsubscribed for awhile, lost three houses so far lol. But if there was more variance in content, good variance. I would never unsubscribe.

I haven't unsubscribed since I joined and own two properties over the course of five years plus. Even when I'm not always playing XIV, I still pay my subscription...I wouldn't so much as blame the game that you've lost three houses due to your personal tastes in its content, but I'd ask yourself if paying that $14 is financially straining that you'd forgo your house simply because you didn't feel like playing that day, week, or month. Losing three houses, while completely sucks, just makes it seem like they weren't that important to you already, at least in my eyes.
11-30-2018, 03:24 PM
Sandpark

Quote:

I haven't unsubscribed since I joined and own two properties over the course of five years plus. Even when I'm not always playing XIV, I still pay my subscription...I wouldn't so much as blame the game that you've lost three houses due to your personal tastes in its content, but I'd ask yourself if paying that $14 is financially straining that you'd forgo your house simply because you didn't feel like playing that day, week, or month. Losing three houses, while completely sucks, just makes it seem like they weren't that important to you already, at least in my eyes.

I don't blame the game for that. I don't pay for something I am not using frequently and it's not because I am broke. I don't pay for services I am not using enough during the "scheduled as a service term". This goes for Netflix, TV cable, movie pass, and everything else. I should have clarified that I stayed subbed to FFXI 8 years, not only played it.

Quote:

A lot of this can be answered with my first point, but to counter the bold parts specifically. You can't make that judgemental call, and you really can't speak for everyone that they have the time for XI's nonsense, for 1.0's nonsense, for any old-style MMO's nonsense in this day and age. To be frank, neither can I, but I'm only speaking about myself, I'm not going to tag on "everyone" and make generalized sweeping statements as you have done. It really doesn't matter that more people, young and old, play more games than ever before. That doesn't mean that they have more time, it just means that the appeal and variety of genres has shifted, the target audience for games has shifted. Video games used to be recognized as children only hobbies, but now it's been recognized that even adults from varying ages and backgrounds have interest in them, that both genders have interest in them. A lot has shifted since the early and late 90's. I run a very tight, household ship. I have so many games to play and not enough time to do them. I work two jobs and take care of three other people plus myself. The way modern MMO's have shifted works for my lifestyle and I believe that modern and future game designers have recognized that nowadays, life can be very short to live in this era. In childhood, it made sense to have grinding mechanics since children would have the MOST free-time on their hands aside from school, but now we have adults making a large portion of the gaming target audience, people who work, take care of families, have other hobbies, and play on their spare time. That's what the gaming industry is targeting, people with mild to average free-time...not people who have an over-abundance of it anymore.

No but I can. Everyone has the same amount of time, 24 hours a day, 6-12 hour workdays. What a developer cannot control is what you do with your time off. You have the same amount of time you had when you were a child, you just prioritize other things first.

Not saying it is wrong to have a life outside games as I do as well. But everyone has times for hobbies or recreation. Even if I only had 2 hours a day of absolute free time, when all the chores and responsibilities are done. That is 14 hours per week. More than enough time to accomplish something in a game. Whether it is an old school game like EQ or FFXI or a modern game like GW2 or FFXIV.
12-01-2018, 01:55 AM
CosmicKirby

OP's habit of calling our current game "Retail" kind of outs him a someone, if not interested in WoW Classic, than someone who frequents those discussions. As they constantly refer to the live version of the game as 'retail' because many of the people in that conversation played on private/pirate servers of the vanilla game.

Gods forbid you ever suggest that nostalgia or some emotional, and thus not really a logical, factor is deciding why they enjoy the older product over the new. (Regardless of the fact that an emotional attachment is still a valid opinion.)

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