Pushed to quit after 1,860 days subbed

Well, even if housing isn't high-end combat, it's still content for people regardless. One person could invest weeks and gil into raiding and another person could invest weeks and gil into decorating. The concept alone isn't very different from each other still at the very least even if the content at their core are radically different, the value of what people invest into them could be considered the same weight.

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Originally Posted by ko_

Forget the comparsion then... you are still missing the point. The information is out there. Just like everything else. So what cause it's housing the person isn't posed to look up information to keep it? That doesn't make sense.

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The msq is the core of the game and it doesn't require you to look up tactics at all. Very few players expect people new to msq content to know it already. Usually people will just carry someone as long as it's not too much trouble. Maybe give them helpful tips as well.

So if the core of the game doesn't require you to look up external information, why should the rest of the game? You can't even always look up tactics for savage and ex. If you begin that content on the day of release there are no guides to read, and a huge amount of people complete them on the day or week of launch without guides. They prove you don't need to read external information to do the content.

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Originally Posted by ko_

Or is SE posed to baby us for everything?

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If it's babying to put the demolition tutorial in a more appropriate place so posts like OP's are less likely to happen, then it's babying to put in any help messages at all.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The msq is the core of the game and it doesn't require you to look up tactics at all. Very few players expect people new to msq content to know it already. Usually people will just carry someone as long as it's not too much trouble. Maybe give them helpful tips as well.

So if the core of the game doesn't require you to look up external information, why should the rest of the game? You can't even always look up tactics for savage and ex. If you begin that content on the day of release there are no guides to read, and a huge amount of people complete them on the day or week of launch without guides. They prove you don't need to read external information to do the content.



If it's babying to put the demolition tutorial in a more appropriate place so posts like OP's are less likely to happen, then it's babying to put in any help messages at all.

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Yeah that's only on day one tho. He didn't buy his house on day one. He got it in 4.2.. that's literally 3 years AFTER said demo timer was placed. So let me ask you. under the same guidelines you just set.. who's at fault? Cause this isn't day one.. it's like messing up void ark.. no the first primal. Going with your example. You can't blame everyone else cause you don't want to do the research. Which is what happened tho. Even if he didn't wantt to go outside the game.. which lets face it SE does a horrible job of explaining anything I'll give you that. But knowing that... google is like right there. It's so easy I can do it on my baby PS4 no problem. Ther is no excuse for not knowing when all the information in the world is literally at your finger tips.

I haven't read most of the thread posts, but I want to say two things.

(1) OP, I am deeply, deeply sympathetic to your plight, and I wish you well. I'd probably quit in your shoes, too. I know for me, the main things keeping me in XIV are my friends and my house - the content doesn't do it for me very well, and the storyline isn't enough to warrant a monthly fee. Losing either my friends or my house would almost surely cause me to abandon the game.

(2) Can we all agree, as a community, that nobody who routinely logs in should ever be 'surprised' by their house being demolished? By which I mean, why does anyone view SE sending emails as a sufficient notification? I personally don't check my email very often, and I know plenty of other people in that boat. Email is vulnerable to spam filters, to custom filters, all sorts of things. There needs to be an in-game mechanism, a pop-up upon login, a BIG one, indicating that your demolition timer has X days left on it. I'd also suggest that SE move the demolition timer category to the main Timers screen. It's ridiculous that it's under a separate Estate tab, a tab that people have zero reason to check routinely if they don't do FC crafting. It needs to be placed at the very top of the timers list: Demolition Timers. It should always indicate how long before the demo a house has, and not activate with only 10 days or so remaining before you lose your home. SE can, and should, do better.

And of course, really, let's not forget that it was SE and their short-sighted design decisions that built this unsustainable housing system in the first place. There's a reason they have to demolish houses: it's because they built neighborhoods that their servers can't support in large enough numbers for everyone. They owe it to the players to do everything possible to mitigate the downsides of this decision, which means yes, taking the time to build proper in-game notification mechanisms, rather than lazily sending out emails. They spent more time ensuring that pending Achievements pop up on our screen than they spent ensuring that players don't lose their house accidentally. That's shameful.

It's rare to find people who will argue against making something more user-friendly, especially when it will only benefit players and has no downside. But alas, here we are.

At least you're on a realm where new or returning people can buy a plot in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

It's rare to find people who will argue against making something more user-friendly, especially when it will only benefit players and has no downside. But alas, here we are.

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For some reason when it comes to housing you have people who are crazy hostile towards any form of QoL that involves making the system clearer and easier to understand. It's almost as if they feel threatened at the thought of more players being able to keep their houses.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

For some reason when it comes to housing you have people who are crazy hostile towards any form of QoL that involves making the system clearer and easier to understand. It's almost as if they feel threatened at the thought of more players being able to keep their houses.

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If they're wanting a house on a populated server, I could see good reason for this, honestly. SE really created a nasty situation when they chose to build neighborhoods that their servers couldn't fully support, rather than instanced housing that everyone could have equal access to.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

For some reason when it comes to housing you have people who are crazy hostile towards any form of QoL that involves making the system clearer and easier to understand. It's almost as if they feel threatened at the thought of more players being able to keep their houses.

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I'm not threathen and I don't think anyone else is. The point everyone seems to be missing is OP himself didn't look into anything and lose his house because of it. And cause of his own mess up he's crying about quiting? Something he could've prevented in the first place? How is this a SE issue? and not a user issue?

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

If they're wanting a house on a populated server, I could see good reason for this, honestly. SE really created a nasty situation when they chose to build neighborhoods that their servers couldn't fully support, rather than instanced housing that everyone could have equal access to.

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Sorry I don't think it's good enough reason to justify players being punished by a system that seems designed to be unclear. The sort of attitude that's like "the system should remain unclear and awkward so I can get a house" is frankly mean and spiteful.

They should instead leave their server or devote their love for housing by advocating for the system to be improved. I know what it's like to not have a house. When I didn't have one I didn't become uppity or crazy whenever someone had ideas on improving the demolition system.

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Originally Posted by ko_

I'm not threathen and I don't think anyone else is. The point everyone seems to be missing is OP himself didn't look into anything and lose his house because of it. And cause of his own mess up he's crying about quiting? Something he could've prevented in the first place? How is this a SE issue? and not a user issue?

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I am not only focusing on OP. The vast majority of my posts have been trying to highlight how badly demolition info is presented in the game. This affects far more people than just OP. Open your eyes.

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Originally Posted by ko_

I'm not threathen and I don't think anyone else is. The point everyone seems to be missing is OP himself didn't look into anything and lose his house because of it. And cause of his own mess up he's crying about quiting? Something he could've prevented in the first place? How is this a SE issue? and not a user issue?

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Because the messaging about it sucks. When you're going to permanently delete player items (including paid ones!) you need to be crystal clear about when that's happening. Expecting players to remember the deletion tidbits as part of the torrent of info you get early game is not sufficient at all.

The reality of the situation is that if you don't visit your home every 30 days you will lose it. Sucks, but that is a necessary evil. What OP is peeved about is that there is no "pick up your stuff before it's gone forever" message when the deletion date is approaching. Any and all messaging about losing the house and all your collected items is buried in a wall of text when you get access to housing areas around level 15, usually well before you're even able to consider buying a plot. If one doesn't check in to their home maybe they really don't need/want it, the system will reclaim it regardless. But not reminding people to get their stuff before it's deleted is a stupid and pointlessly anti-player attitude on SE's part. We get spammed with notifications for all kinds of trivial things, why not have a dialogue box pop up on log-in saying "Your housing items will be destroyed if not picked up in x days. Please visit [NPC] at [location] to reclaim them."? The timer is there, the system for including dynamic attributes in messaging is there, timed contextual notification triggers are there, all they have to do is create the message and a flag to display it. If SE can't do the right thing and keep player inventories even after housing is reclaimed, the absolute least they can do is notify players that the furnishings will be gone for good if they don't collect them.

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Originally Posted by ko_

I'm not threathen and I don't think anyone else is. The point everyone seems to be missing is OP himself didn't look into anything and lose his house because of it. And cause of his own mess up he's crying about quiting? Something he could've prevented in the first place? How is this a SE issue? and not a user issue?

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There is no reason to always be so hostile in your posts. OP was asked by the GMs to share their feelings on the forums, so here they are. Topics like these are a good way to open up conversations on the way things can be better handled in the future. Obviously there is no way to turn back time and reclaim all the lost items (which is the real kicker here, if you've been reading the posts by OP), but it can hopefully bring some good for the progression of the game and how they handle things moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Sorry I don't think it's good enough reason to justify players being punished by a system that seems designed to be unclear. The sort of attitude that's like "the system should remain unclear and awkward so I can get a house" is frankly mean and spiteful.

They should instead leave their server or devote their love for housing by advocating for the system to be improved. I know what it's like to not have a house. When I didn't have one I didn't become uppity or crazy whenever someone had ideas on improving the demolition system.

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I wholeheartedly agree, but it's still a motivating factor.

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Originally Posted by ko_

I'm not threathen and I don't think anyone else is. The point everyone seems to be missing is OP himself didn't look into anything and lose his house because of it. And cause of his own mess up he's crying about quiting? Something he could've prevented in the first place? How is this a SE issue? and not a user issue?

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Where do you suggest we draw the line on what is or is not a user issue? What if SE notified about housing demolition only in the EULA? What if they had a policy of deleting your house wholesale if you dropped your subscription for any reason? Where does it stop?

There are things that people can prevent, and things that people should be reasonably expected to prevent. Clearly this is a scenario the OP could have prevented, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect. Housing is the only system that has consequences for taking a break; it's the only in-game content that triggers email contacts; it's the only timer in the game to be active only when it's close to expiring; it's one of only a few timers that has to be accessed via a secondary tab within the Timers tab. I'd say this constitutes an unreasonable burden on the player. If you disagree, may I ask why? Again I point to the EULA example, or housing deletion if one's subscription lapses. Would those be fair game too, in your mind?

Regardless of your response, there's also one other factor about this that should demand SE take action: it impacts a player's sense of attachment to Eorzea. I'd argue that Housing, as much or more than any in-game system, tends to anchor people to FFXIV. It offers near-endless customization, activities, etc. Losing one's house is extremely likely to cause someone to at least consider quitting, even if they don't ultimately follow through. Therefore, from a business standpoint, SE should want to avoid this happening at all costs. A simple mechanism like the Achievements pop-up when time gets short, and making the timer always visible in the main Timers tab, would go a long way toward accomplishing this - and they can clearly do both.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

While this is a nice find it still doesn't change that you are given this information when you first enter a residential area since demolition was introduced. For most players these days it's when they're a low lvl sprout and barely know how the game works.

That information is plainly not relevant to a sprout and easily results in being forgotten given said player won't even have the ability to purchase any form of housing until after quite a lot of time has passed. As things are now with this, it's like telling a lvl 15 gatherer how collectables work even though they're nowhere near meeting the requirements to even gather them. The timing of when the information about demolition is presented makes very little sense.

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Personal responsibility. You invest into something that you're into and make sure you understand it. There comes a point that the game can only do so much and the rest falls on the player. This is very much this case.

QoL changes are nice and all, but this has been a hot topic since it was introduced in patch 3.1. It's not obscure. It's not hidden. Home-owners and non have complained about it (some even admitting it's a necessary evil given the limitations of the houses); you'd have to have been playing in a very small bubble to not know about it.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Personal responsibility. You invest into something that you're into and make sure you understand it. There comes a point that the game can only do so much and the rest falls on the player. This is very much this case.

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So what you're saying is SE should continue to tell lvl 15 sprouts about demolition and punish them later if they forget about it when they finally get a house at least several weeks if not several months later? This isn't what happened to OP but it has happened to other people. OP's issue highlights a glaring flaw in how players are informed of the existence of demolition.

OP could have done better for himself, that's for sure. It is unusual for a player with his veteran status to miss something like this. He even admitted this. But his issue shows that the timing of when the information regarding demolition is presented is very badly timed. It should not be whenever you first enter a housing district. It should be when you actually interact with the system to purchase a house, like every other tutorial in the game. You don't get tomestone tutorials as soon as you get into Mor Dhona. You get them when you actually get the currency. Why is housing the only tutorial in the game that has timing that makes no sense?

Furthermore we get all sorts of warnings about throwing away items, selling items to the retainer, etc...but none when the game literally deletes your stuff automatically? Why do we have warnings for such trivial items, and none for something extremely expensive and rare like houses and the furniture inside? I don't think anyone in the game thinks the 3 hi-options they sold to their retainer matters more than their house.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

Regardless of your response, there's also one other factor about this that should demand SE take action: it impacts a player's sense of attachment to Eorzea. I'd argue that Housing, as much or more than any in-game system, tends to anchor people to FFXIV. It offers near-endless customization, activities, etc. Losing one's house is extremely likely to cause someone to at least consider quitting, even if they don't ultimately follow through. Therefore, from a business standpoint, SE should want to avoid this happening at all costs. A simple mechanism like the Achievements pop-up when time gets short, and making the timer always visible in the main Timers tab, would go a long way toward accomplishing this - and they can clearly do both.

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This is an excellent point. It's far from unusual to see players say they would quit if they lost their house. And we have OP on the fence because of this. It is in SE's interests to keep their players happy, and taking away their stuff along with poor communication about it does the opposite.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Personal responsibility. You invest into something that you're into and make sure you understand it. There comes a point that the game can only do so much and the rest falls on the player. This is very much this case.

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Are you honestly suggesting that an explanation at level 15 and an occasionally-visible timer buried in a tab that the vast majority of players never have any reason to click on is the most SE can do? That's a more pessimistic statement on SE's competency than even I'm prepared to make, and I'm rather pessimistic about their development skills.

SE could easily introduce pop-up windows when demolition is nearing (they've already done it with Achievements). They could easily make the demolition timer visible all the time. They could easily place the demolition timer alongside the rest of the timers, so that players can track it more easily. That's just a few ideas, off the top of my head.

Or, you know, they can keep letting the community get into these fights, wherein players air legitimate concerns and share stories of legitimate loss, only to be victim-shamed by people who seemingly take offense at anything remotely critical of SE. It's a swell way to inspire our community to become as toxic as WoW's, though that's not an aspect of WoW I'd want in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So what you're saying is SE should continue to tell lvl 15 sprouts about demolition and punish them later if they forget about it when they finally get a house at least several weeks if not several months later? This isn't what happened to OP but it has happened to other people. OP's issue highlights a glaring flaw in how players are informed of the existence of demolition.

OP could have done better for himself, that's for sure. It is unusual for a player with his veteran status to miss something like this. He even admitted this. But his issue shows that the timing of when the information regarding demolition is very badly timed. It should not be whenever you first enter a housing district. It should be when you actually interact with the system to purchase a house, like every other tutorial in the game. You don't get tomestone tutorials as soon as you get into Mor Dhona. You get them when you actually get the currency. Why is housing the only tutorial in the game that has timing that makes no sense?

Furthermore we get all sorts of warnings about throwing away items, selling items to the retainer, etc...but none when the game literally deletes your stuff automatically? Why do we have warnings for such trivial items, and none for something extremely expensive and rare like houses and the furniture inside? I don't think anyone in the game thinks the 3 hi-options they sold to their retainer matters more than their house.

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First of all, I actually don't even know when housing demolition gets mentioned in the game. I've literally had a house before auto demolition was in the game. I swear I've gotten one of those annoying UI pop ups even telling me about the auto demolition sometime during Stormblood (might even be linked to your UI settings, I genuinely don't know at this point). I'd swear the game could almost actually slap our characters in the back of the head and people would still say they didn't know about auto demolition.

Secondly, sure. If you're willing to throw away your 3+ years of playing a game over fluff without ever looking into it for this particular game, yes, because of personal responsibility. *Points to signature and it saying she's cynical.* We're also taking OP, and those other people's, word as fact and not an unwillingness to admit they made a mistake and found an easy scapegoat. I'd like to think a level 15 that eventually does get into housing in FFXIV would take the few minutes it'd take to Google "FFXIV housing" (this is the second link I turned up searching those two quoted words, which even mentions housing reclamation) to avoid the whole issue to begin with because that's just responsible and makes sense.

Thirdly, again, auto demolition is almost synonymous with FFXIV housing. Just about looking up anything about it anywhere mentions this (often angrily).

Personal. Responsibility.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

First of all, I actually don't even know when housing demolition gets mentioned in the game.

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Well I told you. It's when you first enter a housing district after it gets introduced. These days for most people it means they're lvl 15 sprouts getting a tutorial on a system they can't even interact with, and probably won't for a few weeks if not months, or maybe a year. They're not going to remember it after so much time has passed.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I'd like to think a level 15 that eventually does get into housing in FFXIV would take the few minutes it'd take to Google "FFXIV housing"

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Lol are you serious? You really think lvl 15 players are going to google that when their main goal is usually to get xp? They don't google the housing system, they leave, finish the quest, get their xp and move on to the next quest.

Realised I misread the above.

I don't think players should be expected to go to an outside source to get information, especially when no other content in the game requires this at all.

Sure people look up savage guides, but do you have to in order to pass the content? No. The people who write the guides play in this manner among many other people who prefer to learn as they go.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Personal. Responsibility.

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But somehow SE don't trust us to sell items to our retainers properly or to throw away anything without warnings. SE don't trust us to track our currency so they tell us when we cap. SE don't trust us to repair our gear so they tell us when the durability is very low. SE do not trust us with such basic things, but they trust us with a house and everything inside?

SE is extremely inconsistent when it comes to how they think players should handle personal responsibility.

Let me get this straight, the timer on the house is 45days? Then the amount of time the items are stored with an npc is 35days?
45+35=80, so 80+ days of not caring about this feature would result in this, or am I wrong here?

But let us say these 80+ days are the right amount of time not caring about this feature it brings me to this.
Seeing as how housing is a limited resource in this game, is it not better to let those who will use it partake in it rather then someone who does not bother with it for more then 80 days? The best solution would of course be for SE to find a way in which housing was not limited, or at least store the items after a demolition for an unlimited amount of time. But still, a feature your not using for more then 80 days is a feature I find it hard to believe you would miss.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

I wholeheartedly agree, but it's still a motivating factor.


Where do you suggest we draw the line on what is or is not a user issue? What if SE notified about housing demolition only in the EULA? What if they had a policy of deleting your house wholesale if you dropped your subscription for any reason? Where does it stop?

There are things that people can prevent, and things that people should be reasonably expected to prevent. Clearly this is a scenario the OP could have prevented, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect. Housing is the only system that has consequences for taking a break; it's the only in-game content that triggers email contacts; it's the only timer in the game to be active only when it's close to expiring; it's one of only a few timers that has to be accessed via a secondary tab within the Timers tab. I'd say this constitutes an unreasonable burden on the player. If you disagree, may I ask why? Again I point to the EULA example, or housing deletion if one's subscription lapses. Would those be fair game too, in your mind?
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Going to answer your points by point. If it's only in the EULA then you shoul;d read it. if you don't want to read it cause yeah I know .. noone does. Then google is STILL my go too. Cause I want real world experience on the issue. So I'd google it. So that's still a user issue, If you dropped your sub? Honestly I think they SHOULD do that. It'll free up ALOT of space and if you dropped your sub you aren't playing anyway. So what good is your house for if you aren't paying the rent to have it there? I'd say it stops there tho. And yes I do disagree cause in this very case I'll repeat what I said twice. This NEVER would've happened to OP had he done his homework. And it's not even that much to do.. How hard is it to google freaking -housing in FFXIV-? Seriously? So we're going to baby an adult who couldn't take time out his day to google something that's supposely important to him? And that is SE's fault how? Is their system perfect... heck no!!!! It needs TONS of work, but saying that does NOT mean OP is off the hook and SE should feel bad for a user's mistake. Had SE taken his house if he was using it normally? That'll be a WAY different story and SE would have to answer for that. But a user not doing his own homework is NOT SE 's problem. Yeah he lost paid items.. but HE lost those items by not taking care of them. He didn't read the fine print and here's the kicker DIDN'T care too. THAT is why I find it silly he's quiting over something HE didn't do. This is all on him and blaming SE for OP's mistake is wrong. Now we want to talk about how SE can fix their issues is a different topic and I'll agree.. alot can be done.. but NONE of that has anything to do with OP.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well I told you. It's when you first enter a housing district after it gets introduced. These days for most people it means they're lvl 15 sprouts getting a tutorial on a system they can't even interact with, and probably won't for a few weeks if not months, or maybe a year. They're not going to remember it after so much time has passed.



Lol are you serious? You really think lvl 15 players are going to google that when their main goal is usually to get xp? They don't google the housing system, they leave, finish the quest, get their xp and move on to the next quest.

Realised I misread the above.

I don't think players should be expected to go to an outside source to get information, especially when no other content in the game requires this at all.

Sure people look up savage guides, but do you have to in order to pass the content? No. The people who write the guides play in this manner among many other people who prefer to learn as they go.



But somehow SE don't trust us to sell items to our retainers properly or to throw away anything without warnings. SE don't trust us to track our currency so they tell us when we cap. SE don't trust us to repair our gear so they tell us when the durability is very low. SE do not trust us with such basic things, but they trust us with a house and everything inside?

SE is extremely inconsistent when it comes to how they think players should handle personal responsibility.

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And yet I got a house patch 2.4, auto demolition got introduced in 3.1, still have a house and still avoided losing my house. A whole year of no demolition to suddenly having one and still have a house. Imagine that.

If they're level 15 and got the gil and they are suddenly dropped into a house and must maintain it or lose it, yes. Doesn't matter if their main goal is to level up. If their interest is in keeping this house, then that answer is yes.

Getting outside information on a game has been around a very long time. Yes, some people like doing things blindly (like content - I like blind content), but I'd almost say with confidence very few people play games, especially MMOs, without an outside reference on something. A lot of people look up primals, savage and even rotations for their classes. People look up little fluff things like where to get minions (because unless you know where they come from, you're probably looking up how to get one of them). People reference glamours and even a list of FFXIV housing furniture to see how they look - that's still all outside referencing. Technically, reading the patch notes is an "outside source" because it's not within the game.

Yes, we have those things because time and again people have proven to show just how utterly irresponsible they are. They weren't always there - I remember them not being there and being subsequently annoyed they suddenly started popping up. This is where I wish I had that one person's signature I've seen where it says "WoW expects competence. SE (or was it FFXIV) is pleasantly surprised by it." Pretty aptly sums up the two communities, it seems.

To sum up what I'm trying to say:
Add in pop-ups that constantly remind players auto demolition is a thing once they have a house. If there's an option to disable it, people will. Then they'll still come back and cry how they lost their houses. (Personal responsibility!)

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

There is no reason to always be so hostile in your posts. OP was asked by the GMs to share their feelings on the forums, so here they are. Topics like these are a good way to open up conversations on the way things can be better handled in the future. Obviously there is no way to turn back time and reclaim all the lost items (which is the real kicker here, if you've been reading the posts by OP), but it can hopefully bring some good for the progression of the game and how they handle things moving forward.

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O.o I didn't know I was being hostle.. if I'm coming off that way I'm sorry. I understand a GM asked him to share this story.. but that doesn't mean I should accept it or baby him for his lack of care. My only point is he did it to himself, SE had no part in what happened to him. SE didn't take his house away while he was using it, they didn't prematurely delete his items either. OP didn't look into what it took to own a house and because of that choose to not seek out things for what he had no understanding of. And that comes at a cost. So if he wants to quit that's on him. But that's noway in any form SE's fault. this whole thing was due to user error and lack of care. Maybe now he'll understand and take better care of what he gets cause 80 plus days of not looking or checkingg on anything is on him. If I know I got items somewhere that I haven't looked at in a while I check on them. I make sure everything ok like I'm sure alot of people do. If you can't take care of your own stuff then that's noone's fault but your own. Not trying to be hostle but that's legit what happened.

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Originally Posted by Soraki-Muppe

Let me get this straight, the timer on the house is 45days? Then the amount of time the items are stored with an npc is 35days?
45+35=80, so 80+ days of not caring about this feature would result in this, or am I wrong here?

But let us say these 80+ days are the right amount of time not caring about this feature it brings me to this.
Seeing as how housing is a limited resource in this game, is it not better to let those who will use it partake in it rather then someone who does not bother with it for more then 80 days? The best solution would of course be for SE to find a way in which housing was not limited, or at least store the items after a demolition for an unlimited amount of time. But still, a feature your not using for more then 80 days is a feature I find it hard to believe you would miss.

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I think most people at this point recognize the need for auto-demolition. Some of us certainly fault SE for the crappy design decisions that led to this need - it's still stunning to me that they'd build a system their servers are incapable of fully supporting roughly four years later - but that's a separate conversation.

The big issue at this point, the focus of this thread, is how the game (poorly) notifies you of (a) a pending demolition, and (b) the complete loss of all furniture. There is no pop-up. There's no timer visible from any standard window; you have to go digging into a sub-tab. The timer isn't even consistently visible, so someone digging in the sub-tab might not know they can even check it there. The email notifications aren't very far in advance, and are unreliable given the nature of spam filters / custom filters / sporadic email checking habits. It's very half-arsed, and there's no reason for it to be.

It saddens me that this isn't something everyone can agree on. I can understand disagreements over demolition in general, bit this? It's arguable that this is the least visible notification system in all of FFXIV. We have HUD elements for directing us to story quests and job quests; we've got pointers on maps directing us to quest objectives; we've got pop-up windows highlighting Achievements we're close to getting; we've got a series of three different messages for buying gear from an NPC that you cannot currently equip. And we've got a buried, sporadically visible timer for the demolition of what, for many, is their most treasured in-game possession. I'm honestly curious, how on earth does anyone justify defending this? Regardless of whether or not the OP (or others) could have solved the issue themselves, how is such an atrocious notification system acceptable in a game that does so much to protect people in literally every other way?

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Originally Posted by ko_

This is all on him and blaming SE for OP's mistake is wrong.

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I find it interesting that you view this as an issue of blame. I don't think it is - it's an issue of incompetence. SE has unnecessarily created a scenario in which people who do not engage with FFXIV to the level of a Google search, are prone to losing their housing. In a game where, as I outlined above, literally everything else provides more in-game feedback to the player. Assigning blame doesn't fix anything; calling for a better design, one that is more consistent with the rest of FFXIV, might. And regardless, again, I point out: this cost someone their house. They're likely an individual who won't return to FFXIV, which harms SE's bottom line. It's not a situation they should be comfortable with.

I also agree with Skivvy that you're coming across as hostile. Equating better in-game feedback with 'babying' someone is loaded language; how else is anyone to interpret it? If you were making an argument that you think SE's development time would be better-spent elsewhere, or simply saying that you think SE's measures are sufficient, that'd be one thing - but you're not. You're suggesting that everyone disagreeing with you and calling for better-designed systems is seeking to be babied. Such an approach is unproductive at best, and I'd find it quite rude if I was the OP.

Finally, from a values perspective, I really can't get behind the idea that people should live life assuming they have to fully research everything they do. It results in a defensive view of the world, and I just don't see where that improves anything for anyone. In other words, while you can argue we've all the information we need, my argument is that it wouldn't hurt anyone to provide more - and that it would help people, too. Why not jump on a decision that has only upside to it?

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Add in pop-ups that constantly remind players auto demolition is a thing once they have a house. If there's an option to disable it, people will. Then they'll still come back and cry how they lost their houses. (Personal responsibility!)

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May I ask how the 'personal responsibility' statement helps anyone, either?

I mean, let's expand to IRL for a moment. Personal responsibility can arguably be used to blame anyone for the situation they find themselves in. Got your identity stolen? You should have cross-shredded every document, avoided the banking system, and dealt in cash only. Got robbed? Why were you out at night / out alone / not carrying a loaded firearm for just that situation? And so on, and so forth.

Regardless of whether or not one supports these statements, I have to ask: how does it help anything? The OP isn't going to read your post and say 'gee, you're right, I guess I'll keep playing and do better next time' - they're going to quit. An individual who has their identity stolen wouldn't thank their bank if they received a short letter suggesting they shred documents next time - they're going to demand assistance, and switch to a different bank providing it as soon as they can. An individual who gets robbed isn't going to gamely nod and avoid going out at night - they're going to demand the thief be caught, and more police patrols.

In other words, saying 'personal responsibility' might make you as an observer feel good - it might grant feelings of superiority, for example - but it does nothing to really help the victim, nor does it influence their response, nor does it ultimately help SE in this case retain the individual as a customer. It's unproductive at best, and inflammatory at worst. So why bother with the statement?

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

And yet I got a house patch 2.4, auto demolition got introduced in 3.1, still have a house and still avoided losing my house. A whole year of no demolition to suddenly having one and still have a house. Imagine that.

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Oh look it's the good old "if I can do it why can't anyone else?" argument again. Can you imagine if this was everyone's attitude towards everything? There would be no guides on anything for the game if that was the case.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

To sum up what I'm trying to say:
Add in pop-ups that constantly remind players auto demolition is a thing once they have a house. If there's an option to disable it, people will. Then they'll still come back and cry how they lost their houses. (Personal responsibility!)

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But you don't think it's the responsibility of SE to be clear about how the system works? No? You instead prefer it to be badly presented to the point of it appearing to be intentionally misleading? You have strange taste.

And you don't find it strange that SE warn us in game about trivial things but not about major mechanics that automatically destroy our stuff? Hmm okay. I sure hope you don't work in ui design.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

I'm honestly curious, how on earth does anyone justify defending this? Regardless of whether or not the OP (or others) could have solved the issue themselves, how is such an atrocious notification system acceptable in a game that does so much to protect people in literally every other way?

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The cynical side of me thinks it's either people who are bitter that they still don't have a house, or they love elevating themselves by saying buzzwords like "personal responsibility" and "babying".

I am both for adding an in-game popup/reminder, and also for checking your e-mails more than once a week.

Square-Enix: "We will never, ever shoot you!"
Square-Enix a year later: "We'll shoot you if you don't tell us not to...
BANG!
OP: "What the hell, SE?! You said you'd never shoot me!"
Other players: "If OP was really invested in not getting shot, they would have told SE not to shoot them!"

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The cynical side of me thinks it's either people who are bitter that they still don't have a house, or they love elevating themselves by saying buzzwords like "personal responsibility" and "babying".

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As someone who lost their own houses (3 mansions) and very much dislikes the housing system, I actually agree with them. The ignorance was their own fault.

I knew a bunch of people who went through the same mess. They were told to come here to convey their feelings, too, but not one of them got their stuff back. What bothers me is that when this kind of thing happens, more often than not, it's because something serious happened irl. At times, I really wish SE would ditch their protocol and show more compassion. :(

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Originally Posted by R-Pete-G

So after being subbed from 2.0's release, owning every collector's edition (including the original 1.0 release), with additional retainers, buying merchandise and Mogstation items, and even attending fan festivals, I'm out. I only offer that info for background, not a boast

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And it is very interesting background, because if all that is true, then you can't have missed this post on the lodestone: https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...981359611110f0

This isn't something that you had to go searching for, at some point when the feature first launched, this was clearly visible on the login screen. I'd understand if you were newer to the game, and started after this post, but you said you have been playing from the beginning in what seems like a frequent manner, and even if you weren't I find it hard to believe that you didn't play on or around 3.1 patch day considering you have not ended your sub since 2.0. I also believe the in game UI notified you when you went into the housing area once the feature was implemented, further cementing the idea you not knowing is on you.

Having said that, I have also been caught out by the email screwup and lost my house because I wasn't notified, so I can sympathise slightly. But, despite me complaining too, my issue was never with the demolition feature, it was with the bug, and being unaware of the demolition, especially considering your background, is not an excuse, and the fact that you quit over it is petty and says more about you than the feature (Don't get me wrong, there are many other far more valid reasons to quit the game right now).

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

It's rare to find people who will argue against making something more user-friendly, especially when it will only benefit players and has no downside. But alas, here we are.

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I'll give you the exact reason for that. When people complain about housing demolition, it usually isn't about the feature itself, it is usually about how they wrongfully lost their house. Now when you use a concept like wrongful, it opens a can of worms as to whether that is actually true or not. In OPs case the system is working as intended, they didn't access their house for a long time, and in their words had real life stuff going on that meant that their house was left abandoned (which SE don't want and is why the system is there in the first place).

The actual wrongful part that the OP is talking about is the loss of items and the email bug (which the OP never actually talked about, so they either didn't check their emails or we can assume they never recieved them). These we can sympathise with, and there should be an indefinate amount of time to pick up items, and perhaps there should be clearer notification (though it brings up the question of if you need clearer notification, should you really be filling a housing slot?), but when the topic is in regards to OP being wronged by SE, and how we should feel sorry that they were forced to quit the game after 1860 days subbed, of course there is going to be a debate, your comment almost seems silly questioning the idea.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I'll give you the exact reason for that. When people complain about housing demolition, it usually isn't about the feature itself, it is usually about how they wrongfully lost their house.

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The thing is many people in this thread who haven't lost their house are advocating for having the demolition system be more clearly presented in the game. But they still get the hostility over it anyway. I have been super active in this thread and I never lost my house. I enter it several times each day. But despite my personal ease with the system, I can definitely see that it's in dire need of improvement.

The timer being hidden for most of its duration is misleading as hell. Presenting lvl 15 sprouts with information about demolition is crazily poorly timed and utterly irrelevant to them. That we have in-game warnings about selling things to retainers or throwing away items but zero about the game auto deleting things is laughably inconsistent. It's almost as if the whole thing was intentionally designed to be terrible.

OP has little excuse for what happened to him but that doesn't change the fact the information about the housing system is so horribly done. But unfortunately many people would prefer to point at OP and call him irresponsible than consider that there is actually many things very wrong with how the game presents information about demolition.

I guess some people are allergic to criticising SE. Or they like the feeling of superiority.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The timer being hidden for most of its duration is misleading as hell. Presenting lvl 15 sprouts with information about demolition is crazily poorly timed and utterly irrelevant to them. That we have in-game warnings about selling things to retainers or throwing away items but zero about the game auto deleting things is laughably inconsistent. It's almost as if the whole thing was intentionally designed to be terrible.

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I actually addressed this in my post (very briefly). Perhaps the system is intentionally designed badly. Think about it, if you got a notification in-game when you logged in that your house was going to be demolished, then the first thing you do would be to fix that. But the very fact is that you were unaware that your house had been abandoned for so long. If it was made easier then the cycle of people not accessing their house for 40 days, getting a notification, then going in once for 40 days, then getting another notification would increase dramatically, and the number of houses being freed up by the system would reduce. What we would have is wards of houses that are not being used because the system is too good. It's just another perspective to think about.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I guess some people are allergic to criticising SE. Or they like the feeling of superiority.

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If you are referring to me, my post does have critisim in it. On the flip side, comments like this try to make not being allowed to have debate over a subject seem like a good thing, when it isn't.

Are people seriously arguing against information being presented more clearly in the game when it comes to demolitions?

Are people really dead set against having furniture stored indefinitely if a house is demolished?

Why?
We pay for this game and it's not one of the cheaper ones. What is so terrible about improved communication and customer service? What on earth do we stand to lose?
Apart from the fun of coming onto the forum to kick someone when they're down, of course.

If you're really happy with the present system and can see benefits in having the demolition timer on a sub-menu and removing virtual items from the game, then you are entitled to your opinion and I'd be very interested in reading it, but I'm not seeing any compelling arguments for keeping things as they are, just a load of spite and snark directed at the OP. Banging on about personal responsibility etc. doesn't justify this game deleting our virtual assets (in some cases while people are still paying a sub) or failing to communicate clearly about demolition.

@Lambadafish - if people step into those houses then they are being used. At least enough to satisfy the rules.
The problem is the ward system doesn't work. We don't have real communities, we don't have bustling, thriving housing areas with their own distinct personalities and we won't have them because the game doesn't give people any reason to interact or hang out in the wards. Yet, this is what we are stuck with, and the demolition system that goes with it.
Making the timer more visible isn't going to change things for most people, I doubt it would have any effect on how lively or not the wards feel, but it might help a few individuals hang on to houses they actually want.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Are people seriously arguing against information being presented more clearly in the game when it comes to demolitions?

Are people really dead set against having furniture stored indefinitely if a house is demolished?

Why? We pay for this game and it's not one of the cheaper ones. What is so terrible about improved communication and customer service? What on earth do we stand to lose?
Apart from the fun of coming onto the forum to kick someone when they're down, of course.

If you're really happy with the present system and can see benefits in having the demolition timer on a sub-menu and removing virtual items from the game, then you are entitled to your opinion and I'd be very interested in reading it, but I'm not seeing any compelling arguments for keeping things as they are, just a load of spite and snark directed at the OP. Banging on about personal responsibility etc. doesn't justify this game deleting our virtual assets (in some cases while still paying a sub) or failing to communicate clearly about demolition.

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All those things would be wonderful.

The problem (in this thread) is that the entirety of the OP's post hinges on one thing: they weren't aware that housing demolition existed. They actually kind of made a big deal about this, by capitalizing the word "know" and putting asterisks around it. And if they had known, they wouldn't have lost the house, and we wouldn't even have this thread. It honestly sounds like they're trying to shirk responsibility by saying they didn't know.

There are two debates going on, and both sides are generally debating something different and ignoring the other argument. One is about whether it was the OP's fault or not, and the other is about improving the game. One side isn't arguing against improving the game, but they are arguing that not knowing is OP's fault. The other side is arguing that visibility should be improved, and some are even arguing against it being OP's fault.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

I find it interesting that you view this as an issue of blame. I don't think it is - it's an issue of incompetence. SE has unnecessarily created a scenario in which people who do not engage with FFXIV to the level of a Google search, are prone to losing their housing. In a game where, as I outlined above, literally everything else provides more in-game feedback to the player. Assigning blame doesn't fix anything; calling for a better design, one that is more consistent with the rest of FFXIV, might. And regardless, again, I point out: this cost someone their house. They're likely an individual who won't return to FFXIV, which harms SE's bottom line. It's not a situation they should be comfortable with.?

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He can be offended. Not my issue, but in my eyes thats how it comes across. I can't be sorry if you can't be bothered to type in - HOUSES ON FFXIV- like seriously. I'm typing on controller and I can do it. There is no excuse to not be informed. If you are going to claim to have 1k plus days in this game and claim you are invested in houseing then how can you sit there and not know you have X amount of days to enter your house before it's demoed? EVERYONE knows this. It was on random sites when it was first brought up 3 years ago. It was on the Lodestone.. WE ALL KNEW. I can't buy it. I can't feel sorry for him, again it's not like SE took it or a bug happened. He literally didn't care! This is on HIM. And asking for SE to have a better system is a completely different topic that I agree with. As a homeowner myself - before some one gets some crooked baked idea I'm homeless and jealous :/ - Yes SE needs better systems as this one is cracked and drugged and needs to be sued. I get it. But none of this applies to the OP. We're only taking about it cause he messed up and lost it on his own. Had he put in a little effort NONE of this would've happened. Thats my issue with this thread. He's being babied in my eyes cause instead of going - Dude... next time.. use google.- instead people want to blame SE for what? They did NOTHING in this case. Yes their systems are horrible but none of that matters when the op himself couldn't even bother out a percent of care to even keep his stuff legit. That's like me complaining Sony didn't tell me to not put icecream in my PS4 pro and then I go and do it like a moron and then cry blaming sony cause they don't have a sticker saying - NO ICECREAM- Like what do you think people will say? You think people will agree and tell sony they are wrong? Or do you think people will be like - DUDE... why? - That's all I'm saying. Is there an issue yes. We all know this. But none of the known issues apply here when clearly OP didn't care to take care of anything he had in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

So wait, you heard stories of homes being lost and you never thought to look further in this? I mean surely if you received emails successfully you would of known your property was up for demolition, if you didn't receive them then you would entered your house to ensure you didn't lose it.

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This was afterwards.

I once got an e-mail when I didn't enter my house for 30 days.

Gotta check your account info and make sure you got the correct e-mail, and check if your mail sends these messages to spamm or something.

Anyways, an in-game notification would be a lot better than an e-mail.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I actually addressed this in my post (very briefly). Perhaps the system is intentionally designed badly. Think about it, if you got a notification in-game when you logged in that your house was going to be demolished, then the first thing you do would be to fix that. But the very fact is that you were unaware that your house had been abandoned for so long. If it was made easier then the cycle of people not accessing their house for 40 days, getting a notification, then going in once for 40 days, then getting another notification would increase dramatically, and the number of houses being freed up by the system would reduce. What we would have is wards of houses that are not being used because the system is too good. It's just another perspective to think about.

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I can't agree with this logic because if SE's goal was to increase the rate of house turnover, then why bother sending e-mails at all? Just task players with being active enough that they'll never naturally run across the timer anyway and call it a day. The fact that they make an effort to notify the player at all leads me to blame the lack of clear and relevant in-game alert to oversight rather than deliberate intent.

Here we are on page 20, and the discussion is still boiling down to:

- "Because I knew about housing demolition, I cannot possibly fathom that someone else didn't"
- "The only correct way to learn about the game is using these external resources that I declare to be essential"
- "Only doing <content> for <X> days means that you're not enough of a real player to have <content>"
- "If you've ever missed a patch note or Lodestone article, and you don't Google things habitually, you deserve to lose content you've worked for (in only this part of the game, and no other)"

I think it's safe to say that if that's your stance, there's little to convince you how untenable it is. It says nothing for people who take short, frequent breaks from the game and may miss those patch notes / articles in the launcher. It says nothing for people who engage with the housing feature at a much later point, and make the reasonable assumption that the Active Help text - forcing multitudes of information about game systems at you at every turn - would be sufficient to tell you fundamental elements of the housing system.

Regardless, it seems I have opened an old community wound between two sides of this debate, because everyone seems to be focusing on the house demolition. Giddy with outrage that other players don't do what they do, and frothing at the keyboard to pontificate the "right way to play", we're dwelling on something to which I previously said:

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Despite thinking that the in-game communication of the auto-demolition procedure is woefully inadequate, which is evidenced by a lot of the replies here, my post here was just to provide that feedback. I am not contesting that my house was demolished. I am not saying that it shouldn't have been demolished, and I'm not saying Squenix is to blame for it being demolished.

...

I am, at most, saying that it's no one's fault it was demolished, but merely a symptom of a system that is poorly communicated in comparison to the expectation set by other game systems, that have an abundance more in-game clarification. It's much easier to miss this than a lot of other, far less significant mechanics, and this seems to be something most people can agree on.

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In addition to my feedback about how the auto demolition feature could better be communicated, my main complaint was that the permanent deletion of furnishings after a demolition is disproportionately severe and destructive to a player's hard-earned content. That has nothing to do with how reasonable or unreasonable you consider the triggering of auto demolition to be.


If anyone's still following the main point of this thread (I remain ever the optimist), my most recent feedback from a Squenix GM was that they do not have any logs or records pertaining to the furnishings that are moved from an estate to the resident caretaker NPC. I have to admit, I'm quite surprised by this. Anyone else who's worked in web services or software development knows the value of historical logs. GM teams across the MMO genre are also well-documented for using historical logs of character activity to investigate and prove use of exploits, malicious behaviour, etc.

It does seem like the furnishing deletion timer is more to free up Squenix's responsibility and data capacity than any real justification from a gameplay or community perspective, as auto demolition arguably does.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

There are two debates going on, and both sides are generally debating something different and ignoring the other argument.

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Yep, that sums it up.
I guess we all read the OP and took different things from it. I felt the 'personal responsibility' stuff was distracting us from looking at the system and discussing how it could be improved, but I assume those more interested in determining whether the OP or Square was at fault felt people like me were distracting from what they wanted to discuss.
Since who is to blame seems to be the hottest issue, I think I'll bow out.

(I still don't think they should delete anyone's furniture though... no matter how lazy, irresponsible etc they were)