[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

That system is too simple.

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I don't think it's so simple, as long as you would need additional requirements (like quests) to unlock the job in FFXIV instead of just leveling in a specific way

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Originally Posted by northernsky

I don't think it's so simple, as long as you would need additional requirements (like quests) to unlock the job in FFXIV instead of just leveling in a specific way

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I agree, in fact I believe the OP adresses the issue of using the FF:T method of job progression/getting advanced jobs.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

I agree, in fact I believe the OP adresses the issue of using the FF:T method of job progression/getting advanced jobs.

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We should all Like the first few posts by Carpe in this thread. Ignore liking my posts on the front page. :P

I already did lol, first thing I did when I got to work xD

Like x1,000,000,000!

This is a very detailed explanation of a similar idea i had in mind, but even better than the one I had myself. IU would be very very happy to see this in game. :3

I definitely like this solution to class uniqueness, etc.

Like you said though I think that many abilities (particularly magic spells) need to be shifted around.

Also, we've mentioned summoner and beastmaster. Also for classes such as bard or dancer. They'd really not benefit from any existing weapon classes. And would need multiple new weapon classes introduced for each new title like this.

Such as, along with bard title they'd have to introduce multiple instrument weapon classes (with their own strengths). Maybe wind instruments (more buffs), percussion (more debuffs), string (resource regen). These are all quick examples with little thought.

But any class that they implement that aren't typical weapon with magic combo would need to come along with multiple weapon classes to have the same depth as the other titles.

(Random input) Hybrid classes like RDM in particular could have all -potency on everything, but less -potency then all other classes. So they are always more effective than classes that should not have cure (DRK/GLA), but they are always less effective than pure set ups (WHM/CON). Just a thought in keeping hybrids from being too powerful and making it so RDM/CON isn't always pure heals/casting because their efficiency with healing is just as good as pures. I don't know just a thought in ways to keep hybrids as supporting jack-of-all-trades with slight specialization, as opposed to being a master/completely efficient at any role of their choosing.

Also how would crafting classes be handled? It'd be interesting to see how they'd handle titles with them.

I like this idea and believe that implementing it with a bit more complexity in regards to how spells and abilities favor certain titles/classes it would mesh seamlessly with the current system. I also would like to see a quest introducing you to the lore surrounding the specific title for each one; not to challenge the player but to give him/her an idea of what their role is. Later events in the title 'quest chain' should of course test the players skill.

I have also been thinking that Daggers should have had their own class. That alone was indeed a let-down for me, since I really really love Thief, and the cultural theme of Eorzea is just perfect for Thief Attire.

Also people would be grouping together based off their weapon class rank I presume? Which would dictate HP etc?

Some thought would have to go into this and stat distribution, as I've seen a few of you post on thus far, but no clear way of doing this has been said yet.

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Originally Posted by Reiku

Also people would be grouping together based off their weapon class rank I presume? Which would dictate HP etc?

Some thought would have to go into this and stat distribution, as I've seen a few of you post on thus far, but no clear way of doing this has been said yet.

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Yeah this has been discussed in the first few pages after some comments so I think the proposal has evolved a bit.

From what I understand, you are right, you would group with people with a similar base, weapon class rank.
The title/job would be a bonus to certain stats (with new abilities) that would define your role. This title would be unlockable at a given rank (say 30) and would have several tiers linked to your base weapon class rank, within each tier you could unlock a number of traits or abilities.

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Originally Posted by Reiku

Also people would be grouping together based off their weapon class rank I presume? Which would dictate HP etc?

Some thought would have to go into this and stat distribution, as I've seen a few of you post on thus far, but no clear way of doing this has been said yet.

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In my mind yes, but I'm not carpe he might have thought of something else. But to me your title would be something that leveled with your weapon skill. Get rid of physical level, make stat distribution static on weapon class equipped with your title stat bonuses being able to be chosen when reaching the next tier of advancement. We all know gladiator will be a tankingclass due to shield, but if you gave the option at certain intervals of leveling to specialize your stat point allotment then supplement those stat choices with percentage-type bonuses chosen through the advanced title leveling, you create a way to change the way certain advance titles and base weapon classes would level or group.

That's just the first thought off the top of my head, if you could think of a better system by all means post it lol, I hadn't really thought about how people would group for content using this sytem, and also stat allolcation depending on when you do get your advanced title.

EDIT: actuallly I don't see why you couldn't allocate your skill points as you do now, but with the title system just being used to enhance the stats you have with any equipped class. It still raaises the question do you get rid of physical level though?

AWWWWW i had something awesome to add to this but i forgot it. x-x

Someone had mentioned earlier about initial titles prior to unlocking the major ones. Such as Onion Knight, etc. Some generic classes that will hold you over till you unlock the more advanced titles.

I think that stats should be dictated by your title over weapon class, because it will limit your ability to customize. A Dark Knight who wants to be more offensive while using a sword would be less effective if GLA is primarily giving you vitality. Making all end game DRK's use MRD class.

So having perhaps three basic archetypes of titles to begin with could be used to handle stat/hp/mp distribution until you are unlocking the later titles.

This way titles like rdm can use swords/fist weapons while still maintaining higher intellect and mind scores, etc. And Monk/Pugilist can still benefit from higher strength and dexterity.

Basically
Class = How much stats
Title = What the stat points are put into.


This could vary for each title/weapon combo as well to some degree. So stats will vary throughout each combination. ON TOP of added bonuses and multipliers through title choice.

So you're saying like, if they were to remove Physical Level, we could probably distribute bonus points to our attribute through title rank? :3

This idea alone would actually spawn the motive to Cap Tittle Ranks as much as the next one.

Refer to my previous post.

Example (Extreme simplification)

Gladiator Class
As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +4pts, Dexterity +1pts, Vitality by 3pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +2pts, Dexterity +2pt, Vitality by 4pts.


Marauder Class
As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +5pts, Dexterity +2pts, Vitality by 1pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +3pts, Dexterity +3pt, Vitality by 3pts.

So each title would dictate where your stats gained from increasing weapon rank would be allocated.


This of course would vary with each weapon class and title combo. As a Dark Knight Pugalist you'd get maybe slightly more DEX and less STR than you would if you went with Gladiator or Marauder. BUT if you did decide to go gladiator for sword play, you wouldn't get flooded with unecessary vitality as if you would if you were a Paladin (Where you'd want more Vitality).

Is this more clear?

I'd prefer The skills you currently have equipped dictate your stats like Blue Mage did in XI.

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Originally Posted by Reiku

Refer to my previous post.

Example (Extreme simplification)

Gladiator Class
As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +4pts, Dexterity +1pts, Vitality by 3pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your gladiator stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Gladiator Rank increases your Strength +2pts, Dexterity +2pt, Vitality by 4pts.


Marauder Class
As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Dark Knight (Stat priorities for this class would be Strength and Dexterity)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +5pts, Dexterity +2pts, Vitality by 1pt.

Now say lets say...

As you level up your marauder stats are added.
Title = Paladin (Stat priorities are Strength and Vitality)
1LV of Marauder Rank increases your Strength +3pts, Dexterity +3pt, Vitality by 3pts.

So each title would dictate where your stats gained from increasing weapon rank would be allocated.


This of course would vary with each weapon class and title combo. As a Dark Knight Pugalist you'd get maybe slightly more DEX and less STR than you would if you went with Gladiator or Marauder. BUT if you did decide to go gladiator for sword play, you wouldn't get flooded with unecessary vitality as if you would if you were a Paladin (Where you'd want more Vitality).

Is this more clear?

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That is much more clear and an amazing way of doing it. Not only does it help prevent some of the cookie cutter builds you might end up see'ing it would compliment certain jobs not having to be locked into any one style of play. I "liked" it, as in pushed the like button lol. Honestly that would just be great, for building your base stats. And hopefully could be enhanced using a type of chosen stat bonus picked when leveling up to the next tier of your title.

Way better. :3 I'm just going to leave you guys something. I was inspired. xD

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/x...i/img014-1.jpg

Honestly, Square needs to just implement this system. c(ˆ.ˆ)b

SE, hire Carpe to your design team NOW.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

Way better. :3 I'm just going to leave you guys something. I was inspired. xD

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/x...i/img014-1.jpg

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I really love that style. <3

Thanks! :D!! And yes I find this idea very favorable. Click LIKE on all the first few posts guys! ^^

Carpe, I think you need to add reiku's idea of leveling/stat distribution to OP ^^

I'm probably missing this, but has anyone mentioned the use of Final Fantasy III names for the class "specializations"? For example, a conjurer could specialize as a Devout(FFIII upgraded WHM), a Magus(FFIII upgraded BLM), or a Sage(FFIII upgraded RDM). Gladiator could specialize as a Knight(FFIII PLD) or a Dark Knight(obvious), etc.

While I don't think there'd be specialization "levels"(or maybe there could be...), I just think that the naming scheme itself sounds nice. It's also a nice little ego trip since Tanaka was on lead for FFIII. :P

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I'm probably missing this, but has anyone mentioned the use of Final Fantasy III names for the class "specializations"? For example, a conjurer could specialize as a Devout(FFIII upgraded WHM), a Magus(FFIII upgraded BLM), or a Sage(FFIII upgraded RDM). Gladiator could specialize as a Knight(FFIII PLD) or a Dark Knight(obvious), etc.

While I don't think there'd be specialization "levels"(or maybe there could be...), I just think that the naming scheme itself sounds nice. It's also a nice little ego trip since Tanaka was on lead for FFIII. :P

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I always thought adding the names Red Mage, White Mage, and Black Mage just doesn't fit Eorzea(seems kinda plain and out of place). the name Paladin is good either way imo.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

I always thought adding the names Red Mage, White Mage, and Black Mage just doesn't fit Eorzea(seems kinda plain and out of place). the name Paladin is good either way imo.

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...but its final fantasy. Those names go hand in hand with the title. And besides I really think eorzea could benefit from having some plain names thrown in there. Damn near everything is unpronouncable to the average joe.

And I think if we went the specialization route of titles, with master white having the name hanged to devout, or have it just be something you can unlock as an unoffical title, like titles in ff:xi for maxing your specialization

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

...but its final fantasy. Those names go hand in hand with the title. And besides I really think eorzea could benefit from having some plain names thrown in there. Damn near everything is unpronouncable to the average joe.

And I think if we went the specialization route of titles, with master white having the name hanged to devout, or have it just be something you can unlock as an unoffical title, like titles in ff:xi for maxing your specialization

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Yea that's true which is why I would never complain about it.

Waiting to see which direction Yoshi-P takes with the jobs is killing me now. I would love some info even if it will take awhile before released.

well OP you hit the nail square on the head imo
i cant think of anythin that would make this hard to implement quickly and easily
although im sure the lack of sleep isnt helping my brain work :P

very neat, very well thought out, awesome (^.^)b

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

...but its final fantasy. Those names go hand in hand with the title. And besides I really think eorzea could benefit from having some plain names thrown in there. Damn near everything is unpronouncable to the average joe.

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But those names are canon in Final Fantasy, as they originate in FFIII. To say otherwise is incorrect.

Of course I've also been very vocal about going back to those "standard" names like those in FFXI don't fit at all within the Eorzean(and the Hydaelyn) naming scheme.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

So I could do something like Red Mage/Gladiator to be like a RDM in FFXI and the same for BLU. I really like this idea and it seems really easy to implement.

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What worries me about this is whether there will be some actual build up to the multiple roles a hybrid can take up. Red Mage in particular was screwed last time (FFXI) because the job was basically used only for support.

The proposed idea works well with one-role classes in a way, but seems tricky when applying it to hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

What worries me about this is whether there will be some actual build up to the multiple roles a hybrid can take up. Red Mage in particular was screwed last time (FFXI) because the job was basically used only for support.

The proposed idea works well with one-role classes in a way, but seems tricky when applying it to hybrids.

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For the hybrids I imagine the class you "sub" would make you more efficient enough to have a role. Since Hybrids are usually just the "Jack of all trades" type job. I would imagine a RDM/GLA would be better with physical attacks compared to a RDM/CON. There is also the class Fencer but no info on that yet.

Carpe probably could explain it better. This is just a small summary of how I see it.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

What worries me about this is whether there will be some actual build up to the multiple roles a hybrid can take up. Red Mage in particular was screwed last time (FFXI) because the job was basically used only for support.

The proposed idea works well with one-role classes in a way, but seems tricky when applying it to hybrids.

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If I understood carpe's op correctly really all the title system gives you are bonuses and abilities that augment your current equipped weapon specialization. So if you were a rdm/glad, you'd be a sword user with across the board spells chosen from other classes you leveled that would be amplified with red mage abilities whether they be passive or aactive.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

If I understood carpe's op correctly really all the title system gives you are bonuses and abilities that augment your current equipped weapon specialization. So if you were a rdm/glad, you'd be a sword user with across the board spells chosen from other classes you leveled that would be amplified with red mage abilities whether they be passive or aactive.

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Correct. A RedMage/Gladiator would be somewhat proficient in Elemental Casting, Healing, and Buffing/Debuffing, but would be prime for Elemental Weapon Skills. Dealing more damage with them then a normal Gladiator would for instance.

While a Redmage/Conjurer would be more proficient at dealing direct damage elemental attacks and heals, and Redmage/Thaumaturge would be better at using Damage over Time elementals and heals.

I hope cairdeas and I cleared that up for you Duelle ^^

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

I hope cairdeas and I cleared that up for you Duelle ^^

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Indeed. I understand the idea better now. It would just be a matter of adjusting modifiers and numbers to make sure the roles are on par with each other, rather than one heavily out-performing the other. Thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Indeed. I understand the idea better now. It would just be a matter of adjusting modifiers and numbers to make sure the roles are on par with each other, rather than one heavily out-performing the other. Thanks for the clarification.

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Right, and I really don't think that matter couldn't be solved by a bunch of hardened dev's sitting at a table together for half a day.

I'd crap myself a good one if they added this because I would be way too excited to make it to the bathroom.

Someone needs to invest in depends? Just in case?

lol maybe.

Really though I would be happy with this because your Job has nothing to do with the weapon itself.. just the overall idea of this system is unique and one of a kind. Seriously, if you guys need to borrow some of my art talents for any of this for whatever reason, just ask and I'll hop right on it. (Almost done with Male Miqo'te Concept) :D