Dark Knight under review: Feedback to the Developers and Community Team

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

i am not too sure... the full HP buffer is 25%, while Grit and Shield Oath reduce damage only for 20%...

how much % does equilibrium actually heal? when it's below 20% then WAR is at a disadvantage - when it's more than 20% WAR is actually in an advantage here.

---

They are about equal, I heal for about 14.5 to 15.5k and gain 15.25k total. Warrior is not necessarily at a disadvantage still because that HP doesn't need to be healed. So if you are getting hit for 66k and heal back to 80k you have a HP buffer of around 15k, where as tank stance on paladin and dark knight mitigates for 13.2k. Warrior is at the advantage in this scenario at full HP. Of course you could have the case where you are at less HP and warrior is at the disadvantage.

The point of the post is that its really difficult to put yourself into the position that you need to rely on tank stance. Its even harder to imagine that you put yourself into a position where you burned through all of your cooldowns on warrior, and do not have gauge to throw out an IB if you follow the rotation. In optimal play, warrior is only "out" of cooldowns if it uses everything and also is coming out of a trick attack window with 0 gauge.

Basically to make this argument work, this idea of no mitigation in the last second before a tank buster, you need to meet a whole bunch of conditions that realistically don't happen together frequently, and then attributing this "weakness" to warrior's kit as a balancing argument, when in fact the far more likely scenario is that the weakness is in how the player is handling mechanics.
(1) No mitigation
(2) No tank swapping
(3) No gauge
(4) Last minute tank stance use

No mitigation: at the time of writing this should never happen, you can map your cooldowns to always have something up for all tank busters of savage, though you may need to tank swap. This situation points to the player needing a better cooldown rotation.

No tank swapping: You have no mitigation and do not want to tank swap for your cotank to take the hit. I see this as you didn't realize there was a tank buster coming, in which case that is the real issue. If you know that a tank buster is coming and have no mitigation, my first thought would be to give my healer as much time as possible to get me to my full hp if I'm planning on taking this hit with tank stance.

No gauge: Meaning you do not have Infuriate and are within the 6 GCDs after having dumped your gauge. Realistically this is like 15 seconds of a minute. Again, with the above, this hypothetical situation requires the warrior to know that they are going into a tank buster, have no cooldowns, and they did not save gauge, so they are planning on taking this hit without mitigation. This is a red flag. Or the player didn't know in which case they need to learn where the tank busters happen.

Last minute tank stance: Either the player doesn't know where the tank busters are, which is the issue that needs to be corrected, or they know but decided to turn on their tank stance at the very last second knowing that on its own, being on is not helpful. If as a player, I don't know that I'm going into a tank buster, then that is an issue with the player, not the job of warrior. If as a player, I knew that I had no free mitigation, could not tank swap, and had no gauge for Inner Beast, then I should at least be getting into stance so the healer can deal with my HP before the buster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Of course you could have the case where you are at less HP and warrior is at the disadvantage.

---

i think... when Equilibrium heals for more than Grit and Shield Oath mitigates, WAR is never at the disatvantage in that scenario. for comparsion DRK and PLD should not be considered to be at full health either. so even when WAR will not fill his extra 25% HP buffer (completely), he will still fill his HP for around 15k, vs the 13.2k mitigation the other tank stances offer.

o.ô;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

i am not too sure... the full HP buffer is 25%, while Grit and Shield Oath reduce damage only for 20%...

---

25% more HP isn't superior to 20% less damage taken. To compare those you have to consider effective HP.

WAR gains 25% more HP, which translates directly into 25% more effective HP.
PLD and DRK take 20% less damage, which also translates into 25% more effective HP. Grit and ShOath makes it so you can receive 25% more unmitigated damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megguido

25% more HP isn't superior to 20% less damage taken. To compare those you have to consider effective HP.

WAR gains 25% more HP, which translates directly into 25% more effective HP.
PLD and DRK take 20% less damage, which also translates into 25% more effective HP. Grit and ShOath makes it so you can receive 25% more unmitigated damage.

---

I agree, all tank stances on their own make it possible to survive the same size hit, which is as you said measured by eHP. Warrior is just wearing its eHP on its sleeve so to speak.

But there is also another way to look at this, which I posted in another post, which is the amount of damage mitigated by an attack. In this way, if we are surviving a tank buster with only tank stance, then the buster must be doing less than 1.25 times our HP. If we use tank stance to take a hit, then leave stance, then you can actually see warrior has a great stance. This is because the amount of HP in defiance doesn't need to be healed, effectively the HP buffer is extra HP over what we actually need. Lets put some numbers on it.

My tank has 66k HP in a full party with food. This means if paladin and dark knight take a hit with only tank stance, then they can mitigate up to 16.5k, which decreases as the damage of the attack decreases. If I get hit with an attack for 82.5k I mitigate 16.5, if I get hit with an attack for 50k I only mitigate 10k.

Warrior doesn't get mitigation, but it does get an HP buffer, that buffer is 16.5k (at my HP). But that buffer doesn't need to be healed and it doesn't change depending on how hard you get hit. If you get hit for 50k you still can ignore 16.5k of it while the dark knight and paladin only ignore 10k. This isn't an issue, unless the common strategy is to then drop tank stance, in which case warrior has mitigated more and has higher eHP after tank stance comes off than the other two.

TL;DR: I agree with you, all stances allow for tanks to take the same size hit. But the common strategies in the game favor warrior's tank stance over that of paladin and dark knight, though it does take more planning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

TL;DR: I agree with you, all stances allow for tanks to take the same size hit. But the common strategies in the game favor warrior's tank stance over that of paladin and dark knight, though it does take more planning.

---

Even if a tankstance is marginally better than another, at the end of the day, we barely stay 10% of the time on that stance. What favors the WAR's tank stance imo is Unchained. It's WAR's ability to ignore Defiance damage penalty that makes it superior.

In some cases more hp is better due to compounded mitigation. Tank stance and rampart is not 40% mitigation. Its 100*.8 then another*.8 for a total of 64% damage received. However tank stance and tbn is 80% damage and 12k shield so in reality using tank stance for mitigation is a last resort on dark knight even if it was made free with a 10 sec cooldown similar to war. In that sense its still a dps loss but atleast becomes useful in an emergency and low mp. Otherwise a cooldown and tbn is still best choice. Why does it have to be so punishing for pld and drk to change stance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megguido

Even if a tankstance is marginally better than another, at the end of the day, we barely stay 10% of the time on that stance. What favors the WAR's tank stance imo is Unchained. It's WAR's ability to ignore Defiance damage penalty that makes it superior.

---

I don't disagree. My responses were mainly aimed at dispelling this idea that warrior is balanced based on a situation that shouldn't be happening in the first place.

Have we discussed yet about how BIS crafted acc's are a indirect nerf towards TBN?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dio_Tiferet

Have we discussed yet about how BIS crafted acc's are a indirect nerf towards TBN?

---

That's kinda irrelevant since the Vitality difference can be made up through melding if need be(though I'd imagine anyone tanking worth their salt doesn't meld Vitality except for world firsts), and even then it's rather miniscule in the grand picture. The one thing I still wish they'd do in regards to Tank Accessories is just make Crafted Accessories lower stats overall than Raid Gear so that you have to make up with Pentamelds.

I don't think you can meld any more vit onto the crafted accessories? But yea, either way you're only looking at a couple hundred more HP worth of shield (only 20% of whatever 90 vit points equates to in raw HP, right?)

As for what they should do with accessories.. There obviously trying to keep crafting relevant at end game, it's like welfare for crafters (maybe that's a bit harsh). But as many others have echoed it's fine for them to be good, if not the best, for early prog/clearing, but they shouldn't be BiS for an entire raid cycle. Aana still has the best idea in this regard (IMO), give us the full amount of str on tank accessories and use Weapon Damage to balance tank DPS where they want it to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

it's like welfare for crafters (maybe that's a bit harsh). B

---

I laughed, but... that's really inaccurate. Crafted gear is good for alt jobs, not having to go into normal Sigma weekly to take on savage is a boon for raiders and people who... just can't be bothered. Normal mode is a slog, the fights take way too long and people are just petty for the most part. Avoiding that by just making crafted gear is so much more tolerable than throwing yourself to the wolves.

I look forward to see these posts being digested and responded through the 4.3 DRK changes mentioned.

Here is my bad idea for DRK.


I would completely redo the Bloodgauge system for DRKs. Instead having the bar at 100% and treating it like a second health bar that we can leech from.

Dark Arts is now a buff that is applied when using Souleater, Dark Passenger or Blood Weapon during their duration. Below is how each ability would work while under Dark Arts. However, Dark Arts drains 3% of our bar every 3s (server heartbeat). The effect lasts until you use one of the abilities below or lasts for 8 seconds. Abilities used while under the effect of Dark Arts do not require their 1-2-3 combo and are used at full strength for the purposes of Souleater.

Healing:
Souleater 125% of the damage done returned as health. One of our most iconic abilities.
Blood Spiller: 50 bloodgauge, heals for 250% of the damage dealt.

Mitigation:
Dark Mind: 30% damage reduction. 40% if the damage is magic.
The Blackest Night: Damage received is first taken from our bloodgauge and if it runs out, the rest hits the shield, equal to 20% of your maximum HP. 8s CD instead of 15s.
Power Slash: Enmity generating ability that becomes an AoE instead of its usual single target. Must hit at least 3 targets for the increased enmity effect to trigger.

Damage:
Carve & Spit: 350 potency base, returns half our MP and immediate 25 blood.
Dark Passenger: 240 potency, blinds all enemies hit, gives us 20% parry, and 30 blood. 45s recast. Second most iconic ability.
Salted Earth: Increased enmity and returns 1% of our gauge per target hit.
Quietus: Restores 1/3rd of our MP, costs 35 gauge, reduces the damage you take by 5% for 3 seconds.

Utility Abilities:
Blood Price/Weapon are merged into Blood Weapon. Blood Weapon is 1/12th of our MP returned per hit, where Syphon Strike is 1/6th of our MP per hit.
Delirium: Lasts 5s. Pauses the Bloodgauge drain. When you take damage, restore 3% to the gauge.
Sole Survivor: PBAoE that deals 180 damage lasting for 15s. Each target hit returns 6% of our bloodgauge back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

I laughed, but... that's really inaccurate. Crafted gear is good for alt jobs, not having to go into normal Sigma weekly to take on savage is a boon for raiders and people who... just can't be bothered. Normal mode is a slog, the fights take way too long and people are just petty for the most part. Avoiding that by just making crafted gear is so much more tolerable than throwing yourself to the wolves.

---

Yea but there's a big difference between crafted gear being a gap closer vs crafted accessories being BiS for tanks for an entire raid tier lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DBelmont

I look forward to see these posts being digested and responded through the 4.3 DRK changes mentioned.

---

Indeed. I'd like to see Shadow Wall (and I know this isn't pld thread but Bulwark too) reduced to 120 sec CD to bring them more in line with War defensively. They need a DPS boost in one way or another as well, because in all honesty they should be higher and at the end of the day DPS will help mask other little issues the community has. It'd be nice if they were more thorough with a re-design towards the style of play many DRKs miss from HW, but I personally don't see them making sweeping changes to it's playstyle in the middle of an expansion. Not impossible by any means I just think it's unlikely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yea but there's a big difference between crafted gear being a gap closer vs crafted accessories being BiS for tanks for an entire raid tier lol



Indeed. I'd like to see Shadow Wall (and I know this isn't pld thread but Bulwark too) reduced to 120 sec CD to bring them more in line with War defensively. They need a DPS boost in one way or another as well, because in all honesty they should be higher and at the end of the day DPS will help mask other little issues the community has. It'd be nice if they were more thorough with a re-design towards the style of play many DRKs miss from HW, but I personally don't see them making sweeping changes to it's playstyle in the middle of an expansion. Not impossible by any means I just think it's unlikely.

---

To make it more balanced, I'd add a DA effect to the 120sec CD Shadow Wall that will make it equivalent to Sentinel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DBelmont

To make it more balanced, I'd add a DA effect to the 120sec CD Shadow Wall that will make it equivalent to Sentinel.

---

Eh, that depends on the changes. Shadow Wall + TBN would achieve more mitigation right now, so I think they'd have to change something with DA to make that a worthwhile addition. Also need to consider the issue of spamming DA with everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Eh, that depends on the changes. Shadow Wall + TBN would achieve more mitigation right now, so I think they'd have to change something with DA to make that a worthwhile addition. Also need to consider the issue of spamming DA with everything.

---

DA needs to be moderated, I agree. I would like to see a Dark Mind redesign where it is an individual DA-free skill.

Example of redesign: Make it absorb a portion of damage received. Would make great synergy with TBN for damage control and self-healing.

I can guarantee you after Dark Knight get nerved or buff then you're going to see Paladin complain thread and a warrior complaint thread....its a vicious cycle....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by urban

I can guarantee you after Dark Knight get nerved or buff then you're going to see Paladin complain thread and a warrior complaint thread....its a vicious cycle....

---

There is also the other scenario. DRK gets weak buffs that don't really make up for anything like PLD had in HW. Then DRK gets buffed next expansion in favor of another tank that gets to be the weak link.

To be even more precise, the tank that will share a role/spot with the new tank next expansion is going to pay for it dearly. I suspect this is going to be WAR's turn this time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DBelmont

another tank that gets to be the weak link.

---

They really need to stop this pattern. All it shows is that they can only balance two tanks, which if that's truely the case, they need to hire someone who actually can.

They also need to put in the effort of balancing more than one tank at a time.

Tried my hand at tanking and started off with DRK, it is fun till I received Dark Arts. Dart Arts just makes it so button mashy, felt like playing my NIN all over again. Turned to a GLD and really enjoyed how much more fluid and that shield is a Hydalen send. What is the trade off for DRK lack of mitigation? I feel DRK should have way more HP recovery tools, the only ones we have require Dark Arts before being used. I adore the giant sword and dark ascetic, reminds me so much of Guts from Berserk. It just feels overly complicated for no reason and lacks so many tolls compared to WAR and PLD. I may just level up my GLD - PLD till DRK gets some more love.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

They really need to stop this pattern. All it shows is that they can only balance two tanks, which if that's truely the case, they need to hire someone who actually can.

They also need to put in the effort of balancing more than one tank at a time.

---

Maybe adding a 4th tank will force them to balance all 4 of them on more equal grounds? We can only wait and see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DBelmont

Maybe adding a 4th tank will force them to balance all 4 of them on more equal grounds? We can only wait and see.

---

at least with 4 tanks we will have more choices if one is underperforming the way PLD and DRK do in they respective patchs and not get stuck with 2.

Maybe they could change both Living Dead and Holmgang's effects just like Hollowed Ground's so all 3 tanks have a 10 second invulnerability.

Give Warrior and Dark Knight an ability to Block Damage. Maybe Warrior can have a buckler strapped to his left wrist and Dark Knight can have a familiar that blocks damage for him so they have something to block damage like PLD. Change Warrior's Raw Intuition so it's like PLD's Bulwark, and give Dark a similar Ability.

Change Dark Mind so it mitigates all damage instead of just magic.


Change Blood Price so it also reduces 10% of incoming damage, Blood Weapon also increases your damage by 20%.

Give Dark Knight Dread Spikes, Duration 30s, Recast 1min, Steal HP/MP from enemies who hit you.

Change Unleash and give it the same damage and TP cost as Warrior's Overpower.

Just a thought. XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RareItems

Maybe they could change both Living Dead and Holmgang's effects just like Hollowed Ground's so all 3 tanks have a 10 second invulnerability.

Give Warrior and Dark Knight an ability to Block Damage. Maybe Warrior can have a buckler strapped to his left wrist and Dark Knight can have a familiar that blocks damage for him so they have something to block damage like PLD. Change Warrior's Raw Intuition so it's like PLD's Bulwark, and give Dark a similar Ability.

Change Dark Mind so it mitigates all damage instead of just magic.


Change Blood Price so it also reduces 10% of incoming damage, Blood Weapon also increases your damage by 20%.

Give Dark Knight Dread Spikes, Duration 30s, Recast 1min, Steal HP/MP from enemies who hit you.

Change Unleash and give it the same damage and TP cost as Warrior's Overpower.

Just a thought. XD

---

I know this post is most likely sarcasm but, further homogenization of tanks is the absolute LAST thing we need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

I know this post is most likely sarcasm but, further homogenization of tanks is the absolute LAST thing we need.

---

Sure, so long as tanks don't end up with lackluster abilities. Things like Rampart being on all tanks instead of 2 is a good thing but it's very homogeneous.

Living Dead skill is not good. It is the "IN CASE OF FIRE BREAK THE CRYSTAL" Sort of scenario. It completely draws the healer's attention, it requires to set up a macro for the sake of letting the healer know "Hey I am going to die unless you pick up the healing", and it is not something you can use strategically like the Paladin HG. You only use it when things are looking grim, and by that point chances are ... you are going to die 3/5 times if the healer is not able to catch up. It is just not a useful proactive skills, it is just reactive for when shit hit the fan compared to the other tanks that can use their level 50 Skills in a more versatile manner for a wide variety of scenarios, and if you are tanking properly and the healer is doing its job, the level 50 skill will sit there like a pretty decoration rarely being used. Whoever is saying Living Dead is fine... he or she is not playing a Dark Knight I am pretty sure
Dark Mind ... never used it AT ALL.

By itself tanks are unpopular. I need to wait 30 minutes to be able to queue for dungeons compared to the 3 seconds wait when I switch to DK, talks about the class popularity in general. My point is as far as theme goes, yes I get the "Dark Theme" of the Dark Knight, but might as well make a boring class more interesting by releasing many of the the impediment or mitigating them and with this I include WAR as well. Just take away the "Death" part of Living Dead and the "Not Moving" of WAR. By the above reasons, living dead is useless by itself if you have a competent healer. The dying factor doesn't make it any better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aisenheim

I am pretty sure Dark Mind ... never used it AT ALL.

---

DM/DA+DM is crazy good in 3/4 fights in this raid tier. Pairing it with TBN and nothing else can turn a lot of what even God Kefka does into pokes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Otorinth

DM/DA+DM is crazy good in 3/4 fights in this raid tier. Pairing it with TBN and nothing else can turn a lot of what even God Kefka does into pokes.

---

Sounds like they are probably just running dungeons, which there's nothing wrong with, but it would explain why they'd never need to use DM. Still, it brings up a valid point in that DM is mostly useless outside of raids, which does make DRK feel significantly worse mitigation-wise even for more casual tankers. Raw Intuition isn't that great this raid tier but still sees usefulness in boosting Shake, while at the same time being a hell of a CD for casual dungeon running (w/ awareness ofc). DM should be more like that, doesn't have to be OP but at least make it useful for more content outside of raids.

Sort of the same with LD, being able to plan around it's usage in a scripted fight is.. Manageable. But again for casual dungeons it's significantly worse than Holmgang, which is risky in it's own way but at least won't auto-kill you if you aren't healed up enough in time. LD really is a terribly designed "invulnerability"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aisenheim

Dark Mind ... never used it AT ALL.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Otorinth

DM/DA+DM is crazy good in 3/4 fights in this raid tier. Pairing it with TBN and nothing else can turn a lot of what even God Kefka does into pokes.

---

I gotta agree that Dark Mind shines best when fighting bosses, but considering that it's useless against the random trash in dungeons I can see where they're coming from. I wouldn't want to change Dark Mind though, when you use it properly it feels amazing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aisenheim

Living Dead skill is not good. It is the "IN CASE OF FIRE BREAK THE CRYSTAL" Sort of scenario. It completely draws the healer's attention, it requires to set up a macro for the sake of letting the healer know "Hey I am going to die unless you pick up the healing", and it is not something you can use strategically like the Paladin HG. You only use it when things are looking grim, and by that point chances are ... you are going to die 3/5 times if the healer is not able to catch up. It is just not a useful proactive skills, it is just reactive for when shit hit the fan compared to the other tanks that can use their level 50 Skills in a more versatile manner for a wide variety of scenarios, and if you are tanking properly and the healer is doing its job, the level 50 skill will sit there like a pretty decoration rarely being used. Whoever is saying Living Dead is fine... he or she is not playing a Dark Knight I am pretty sure.

---

What makes me sad is that people who don't even understand the job want it to change. Sure, Living Dead and Dark Mind are near useless if all the content you run is dungeons and FATEs. But they are great tools in harder content (in that case, Dark Mind is what makes DRK so sturdy alongside TBN).

First, Living Dead is far from a "IN CASE OF FIRE" button. It's a tool that you can plan to use, in the same way you plan to use Hallowed Ground at a precise moment. More than PLD's invuln, you want to plan your Living Dead, so your healer knows when he has to heal you back to full HP. Of course, if you use that in the middle of nowhere, the healer won't be ready to heal you. The HP requirement on Walking Dead doesn't need to disappear, but it would be easier if it were smaller (like, 50% of max HP needs to be healed). If you use Living Dead only when shit hits the fan, then you are using it wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megguido

What makes me sad is that people who don't even understand the job want it to change. Sure, Living Dead and Dark Mind are near useless if all the content you run is dungeons and FATEs. But they are great tools in harder content (in that case, Dark Mind is what makes DRK so sturdy alongside TBN).

---

That just shows a poorly designed class when some abilities are useless in certain situations. Sole Survivor: Decent in dungeons, worthless in boss fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

That just shows a poorly designed class when some abilities are useless in certain situations. Sole Survivor: Decent in dungeons, worthless in boss fights.

---

Not always.

That's really the biggest gripe with DRK that people just keep overthinking and warping: compared to WAR/PLD, there's just too many "if X is true then Y, otherwise Z" situations.
SS is good if the boss has adds. WD is good if your healer knows how to handle it. TBN is great if it breaks, else it's just good. DM is good if there's a lot of magic damage going out, else it's meh, and so on for other skills.

WAR/PLD have a few, sure. TW is good if the boss has a knockback, else it's just meh. SiO is great if you burn a few of the secondary/tertiary CD's with it, else it's still good. The problem's just the overall "completeness" in the classes and how the skills work with the rest of the class skills, when paired in a given situation, and even in isolation.

Upon further reflection, is it necessarily a bad thing if a job is more like a "raid spec" kind of job? Even NIN is in a similar spot, for dungeons would you rather have an AoE vulnerability like Hypercharge or still prefer the single target TA? Back to tanks, would you rather have Raw for dungeons or Dark Mind? Everything is "viable" of course, but perhaps there should be a bigger distinction between "raid spec" and "casual" jobs.

I don't know, maybe not. Just a thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Upon further reflection, is it necessarily a bad thing if a job is more like a "raid spec" kind of job? Even NIN is in a similar spot, for dungeons would you rather have an AoE vulnerability like Hypercharge or still prefer the single target TA? Back to tanks, would you rather have Raw for dungeons or Dark Mind? Everything is "viable" of course, but perhaps there should be a bigger distinction between "raid spec" and "casual" jobs.

I don't know, maybe not. Just a thought.

---

I think of it more as situational actions instead of a 'raid spec'. Not all abilities are good/useful all the time. If there are never more than 2 mobs (say, O7s) then fire II is pretty dang useless. Might as well delete it from your hotbar. If there are no knockbacks, might as well delete tempered will. No adds? Delete sole survivor. No downtime in a fight? Why does meditate exist? Mob immune to silence? Can we delete arm of the destroyer yet?

Not every skill is useful, let alone optimal at all times. Some skills are more general, some are incredibly niche and specific and everything in between. Just because a skill isn't good in dungeons (dark mind for example) doesn't make it 'bad', nor something that is bad in raids and awesome in dungeons 'good' (sole survivor for example). Both of these skills have a function and a purpose. Just like Arm of the destroyer, tempered will, and every AOE skill have a purpose, even if you don't use it at all for certain fights.

This gets complicated when you try to balance a job though. Are we balancing for lv 50? Leveling up 1-70? Balance at 70 in dungeons? Balance at 70 in raids? Balance for PVP? Its quite impossible to make every job equally good at everything without making them clones. Someone is better at fighting multiple mobs, someone is better leveling from 1-70. Someone is better at dungeons. Or raids.

SE 'seems' to have organized most of the balance around lv 70 high end raids. That is were skills like living dead are fantastic, even though its more likely to kill you than help in a pug DF dungeon. That's why Dark mind is as it is. Its a strong skill in raids. That's why Ninja has shadewalker. The focus for SE seems to be on coordinated raid situations. And I cant really disagree with that. Does a healer ever see a drk in dungeon and insta bail because living dead is annoying? Nope. Were 30 levels over when a dungeon is released. No one cares because you don't need living dead to beat a dungeon you can sleepwalk through. No one will kick you from a Eureka party because your a drk instead of pld. But you will get denied spots in raids if your job isn't 'good enough/meta enough' this patch. As much as it might suck if you just do lower end content, it doesn't actually stop you from doing the content. Balance in lower content is a bit of a misnomer. Its about quality of life "I can Hallowed the big pull and smile, but on drk you have to use CDs and accept heals, but ultimately still win regardless." Balance in high end situations is about ability to play and complete content. The latter is far more impactful and why most games balance from the top down and some stuff gets wonky the farther down you go, but that doesn't draw a line in the sand you cant pass, just a QOL 'nice to have'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Upon further reflection, is it necessarily a bad thing if a job is more like a "raid spec" kind of job? Even NIN is in a similar spot, for dungeons would you rather have an AoE vulnerability like Hypercharge or still prefer the single target TA? Back to tanks, would you rather have Raw for dungeons or Dark Mind? Everything is "viable" of course, but perhaps there should be a bigger distinction between "raid spec" and "casual" jobs.

I don't know, maybe not. Just a thought.

---

In this scenario, I'd rather they use the cross role system for more robust options.

Party having issues surviving?

Slot the trait "I am your opponent", reducing damage the party takes by 5% but increasing yours by 10%

Need to do more damage?

Slot the Berserker trait, increasing damage dealt by 15% but disabling Defensive actions outside Tank stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

That just shows a poorly designed class when some abilities are useless in certain situations. Sole Survivor: Decent in dungeons, worthless in boss fights.

---

We clearly don't have the same definition of the word "decent" XD
This skill is trash end of the story.

If AT LEAST it were on a short CD and at low level to help DRK level up.
Not even

They dont go to rework the job, what a surprise, mostly potency changes, i swear if those changes dont make drk have a niche im done with SE favoritism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

They dont go to rework the job, what a surprise, mostly potency changes, i swear if those chances dont make drk have a niche im done with SE favoritism.

---

The niche is going to be "Does more damage than Paladin, but less than Warrior."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Otorinth

The niche is going to be "Does more damage than Paladin, but less than Warrior."

---

That's not a niche though, that's the opposite of a niche. That middle of the road idea is going to help nothing; people will still take PLD/WAR because both excel in their areas whereas DRK will only ever be middling in them.