Please do something about mentor roulette instant-leaves

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

so whats the point if u join rouletes and leave after? :P i mean ur just as much irrelevant to qeue times as if u do something else XD

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That's factually incorrect. The party is already in the instance - that's more than they'd have gotten without the insta-leaver. Depending on party makeup and skill, they can clear nicely into the instance, too. So while insta-leaving, that person still helped with the queue. The position can then be filled by other people who bothered to mark "in progress", be it on that particular instance, roulette (say, leveling), or finally - Mentor roulette. There's a reason why so many roulettes exist, and the 'in progress' option. Jerk move? Perhaps. But the fact remains that without this insta-leaver queuing in the first place, we never would've gotten into the instance at all and the queue times would've kept ticking.
It's kind of surprising how often I get "0m elapsed" when I queue for Mentor, on any role. But that's the thing - I can go in there and help because there's an instance to get into.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

He would have to suffer the same pain as the one he inflicted to the player he left behind him.

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there's the root of the matter. You want, for whatever reason, people to suffer because of some perceived injustice. If, I leave a dungeon and get my penalty, I have done nothing wrong. Feel free to report the next person who leaves a dungeon. If a GM tells you anything other than "people can leave if they want" I'd be extremely surprised. That is what its for.

I don't care what instance I get, but I'll leave if I need to (emergency, surprise company) and do the roulette later. The people I left behind can continue on and I'll just be stuck in a weird "specific" queue instead of moving the roulette queue along if your suggestion was put in place. Or better yet, I'll just ask 3-7 friends to do me a solid and queue for whatever it is I'm locked into. So that's potentially 8 people taken out of a roulette. And nothing of value is accomplished.

Give people who leave at the start or period a 3 hour ban from dungeons. Don't care if you don't like the dungeon.. you picked the roulette and you're wasting other's people time if you do this. So either make a PF or deal with it. I bet if people had to wait 3 hours when they did this it'll stop instantly.

Or you can prevent your long wait time by going as a role that doesn't have to wait. You can't make people do what they don't want to.

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Originally Posted by Hikuras

Give people who leave at the start or period a 3 hour ban from dungeons. Don't care if you don't like the dungeon.. you picked the roulette and you're wasting other's people time if you do this. So either make a PF or deal with it. I bet if people had to wait 3 hours when they did this it'll stop instantly.

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Catch me playing another game for 3 hours and/or never queueing up for anything without friends ever again. Many people already don't pug content. This will make queue times worse.

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Originally Posted by savageink

Did you tell people you had to leave the group because of a family problem? If you did, then I have no issues. If you stone cold dropped with no warning without even an "Emergency! have to go, sry." in chat, then yeah, they would be justified in being pissed. Despite your sub, and you paying to play, It's an MMO, It's like joining your bar's baseball team. You paid for the shirt and your glove and you pay to drive to the games, but you agreed to play with the other people at a certain time on a certain schedule. They have a right to be annoyed since that's how group activities have always worked...except online for some reason.

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Sometimes I do have time to type out something, but sometimes I don't. It is different online because online is not the same as real life; which I think would be obvious. I didn't agree to 'be' anywhere I am just at home on my computer/PS4 playing a video game.

Your comparison doesn't work too well since real life > online video games, so that is different and IF something really serious happened then maybe that person who didn't show up for the bar's baseball team meet didn't have time to call in? Be pissed all you want, but maybe that guy was at the hospital with a dying relative and doesn't give two craps about the team right now because there are more important people in his life than random strangers on a baseball team.

It sounds so harsh, but it is the blunt truth and I understand it is a situation that doesn't happen too often, but it is an example of why people don't owe you explanations and getting pissed off or whatever only wastes your own energy.

Like I said no one owes anyone else an explanation for leaving a duty in a video game; MMO or not. If I have to go for personal reasons and I have to leave right away then sorry I am going to leave to free up the spot for someone else to join who can do their job for that group while I attend to real life matters. The faster I leave the faster they can get a replacement to continue to play.

I always queue in progress for mentor roulette and other roulettes and fill missing spots to help out and I am sure many others do as well. So I am already trying my best to help queue times and complete duties for other players. I don't owe anyone anything else.

You are asking too much of strangers and if they want to be pissed someone like me had to leave then I honestly don't care. Be pissed. It matters not to me.

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Originally Posted by Hikuras

So either make a PF or deal with it.

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Um, you also have the option to "make a PF or deal with it" if you don't like that once in awhile you end up where someone leaves a duty that you were in.

So that is kind of hypocritical and pointless to say unfortunately... since you are telling us to do something you also have the option to do.

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Originally Posted by Hikuras

Give people who leave at the start or period a 3 hour ban from dungeons. Don't care if you don't like the dungeon.. you picked the roulette and you're wasting other's people time if you do this. So either make a PF or deal with it. I bet if people had to wait 3 hours when they did this it'll stop instantly.

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I think the punishment should fit the crime - thats why I suggest the loss of the roulette-bonus if you leave (maybe we should add: within the first 5 minutes, to make it clear that this about people leaving because they didnt like the dungeon they got and not for some maybe actual valid reasons - rl emergency, harrassment, whatever...). The perk of doing your roulette is that you get said bonus. The price you pay for that is that you get a random duty - dont like that duty and leaving means not paying the price, so you're not entitled to the bonus anymore (at least not for that day).

Just extending the lockout wont do much good - for once they can only do that to an extend, seeing how we're all are paying customers that they dont want to screw over like that (basically locking you out fo playing the game for a significant amount of time) and second, just like Mavrias said: People will just leave and play/do something else.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You want, for whatever reason, people to suffer because of some perceived injustice.

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Yeah the bad guy is the one protecting the weak and the deceived one are the troublemakers. Btw the purpose of my suggestion is not to make people suffer.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

there's the root of the matter.

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The root of the matter is the community which wants the reward of the roulette but does not want to do it properly. And they seem to spend a lot of time here.

At this point I think the only solution would be to ask the Phantom Thieves to changes ff player hearts in the metaverse :p

Another idea would be to add a "I want to leave" feature when you are in a dungeon. Which would replace you as soon as someone else tagged to do the specific instance you are inside. (Obviously only out of combat because this would be bad).

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Another idea would be to add a "I want to leave" feature when you are in a dungeon. Which would replace you as soon as someone else tagged to do the specific instance you are inside. (Obviously only out of combat because this would be bad).

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That's an interesting idea but it won't cover all cases. People who still don't want to run Aurum Vale won't run it. But a lot of people will try, thinking they might be replaced soon. Then there are three options: ideal: someone else needs to run that place, and they get replaced quickly. Acceptable: the person who wanted to leave no longer sees profit in leaving after all the time spent in there. They stay. The worst case scenario is that they see, say, 10 minutes have passed and no one came, so they still leave. But by then the rest of the party is a lot less likely to abandon ship with them.
If you insta-replace them, the LB can remain untouched, too, which is a fine boon.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Yeah the bad guy is the one protecting the weak and the deceived one are the troublemakers. Btw the purpose of my suggestion is not to make people suffer.

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Bro you literally used the words, "they will suffer." I didn't just pull that out of nowhere. You said it.

No one in this game is weak or decieved. Like, the hell are you huffing? You're not "protecting" anyone. You're just coming up with weird, frankly extreme, punishments to a non issue. You know WoW's leaving penalty is actually less than ffxiv's? And they don't have these weird discussions about it on their forums.

But, if you're gonna make P5 references, you're probably closer to the Moon confidant and his story line until like... rank 8.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You're just coming up with weird, frankly extreme, punishments to a non issue.

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Ok so you are telling me that the people who were left behind didn't suffer anything. And when I put the dodger in the same situation you are calling it a weird, frankly extreme, punishment?
Sorry my mind is made of logic I can't agree with that.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Ok so you are telling me that the people who were left behind didn't suffer anything. And when I put the dodger in the same situation you are calling it a weird, frankly extreme, punishment?
Sorry my mind is made of logic I can't agree with that.

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The people left behind suffered a queue and then possibly a requeue. You have suggested:

1. A ban (this is the funniest one so it had to be first)

2. Drawing the same instance from the roulette until you complete it, which depending on the instance could be impossible

3. Drawing that same instance and instead of pulling other people from the roulette in question, draw people who are specifically queueing for the instance in question. Which, again could make clearing that instance impossible.

So yes I'd call all those extreme compared to the current system which puts the leaver in the same situation as those left behind. lmao. also good job, avoiding every other thing in my post.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

1. A ban

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You ommited of 90 minutes. I don't spend time on it because I understood nobody would agree to that.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

2. Drawing the same instance until you complete it, which depending on the instance could be impossible

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Fine tuning is certainly required. Something like a reset at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

3. snip

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If you are talking about the "I want to leave" you misunderstood it. This does not impact negatively anybody. That's what is good about that suggestion. It just gives the people who wants to leave the opportunity to do it without bothering his teammates. If the dodger don't care he can act as before.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

good job, avoiding every other thing in my post.

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Sorry I didn't complete the moon confident. And I don't care about WoW.

As you can see, I am pro-active and I am evolving in my reflection :-)

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

You ommited of 90 minutes.

If you are talking about the "I want to leave" you misunderstood it.

And I don't care about WoW.

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90 minutes is irrelevant. It could be for five minutes and there'd be no difference. A ban is a ban.

I'm not talking about the "I want to leave" because we already have that lmao. It's the "leave" button. I'm talking about your follow up to your "locked into the instance idea" when someone else told you why they disagreed. That is indeed the nonsense you spouted to them in response.

You don't need to care about WoW to understand the point I'm making. Which is that people taking a leave penalty because they need to or want to leave is a non issue.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I'm not talking about the "I want to leave" because we already have that lmao. It's the "leave" button.

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This is totally different since you leave only once the group has found a replacement. It's a possibility to act more friendly.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I'm talking about your follow up to your "locked into the instance idea" when someone else told you why they disagreed. That is indeed the nonsense you spouted to them in response.

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Please quote me, because I don't undrestand and want to understand.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You don't need to care about WoW to understand the point I'm making. Which is that people taking a leave penalty because they need to or want to leave is a non issue.

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The title of the topic is "Please-do-something-about-mentor-roulette-instant-leaves" so a at least one guy care about it. Maybe you don't, maybe wow players don't, but he does. And given the length of the topic, he's not alone.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

If you really want me to shot down this argument, it should be easy for SE to only group a dodger with a player who didn't tag on roulette but directly selected the mission.

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Here's your quote. So how fucked would this be if my mentor roulette gave me Shiva Ex and I had to leave to do something? Whelp, guess I'll never be able to do mentor roulette again lmao.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Here's your quote. So how fucked would this be if my mentor roulette gave me Shiva Ex and I had to leave to do something? Whelp, guess I'll never be able to do mentor roulette again lmao.

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Yeah I agree with you, this requiers fine tuning. Like the daily reset as suggested in my previous post.

I don't have the ultimate solution, I am only throwing ideas. Sadly the community spends more time destroying them than looking to improve them.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

I don't have the ultimate solution, I am only throwing ideas. Sadly the community spends more time destroying them than looking to improve them.

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People shoot down your suggestions because they're fine with the current system in place. A person leaves, they cannot even queue for anything for 30 minutes. Because I am an adult, I accept this and ask around in linkshells and FC chat, leave, or I wait for another pug to queue in progress, and don't whine about someone else doing whatever they want with their own time.


Also, criticizing ideas and thoughts is how they grow. "I agree," being said over and over again contributes nothing to a discussion.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Because I am an adult

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

criticizing ideas and thoughts is how they grow. "I agree," being said over and over again contributes nothing to a discussion.

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Don't talk to me about adulthood and how to have a discussion. Looking at people almightly, calling them "bro", telling them "good job" and "lmao" is neither acting as an adult or contributing to a discussion.

Nothing will come out of this topic so I am leaving here.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Don't talk to me about adulthood and how to have a discussion. Looking at people almightly, calling them "bro", telling them "good job" and "lmao" is neither acting as an adult or contributing to a discussion.

Nothing will come out of this topic so I am leaving here.

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Since we are equal I can call you "bro," and say "good job" and "lmao" at my leisure. I'm not speaking to my professor, or a customer at the place where I work, or my grandfather. I'm speaking to someone on an Internet forum for a video game. If thats all you read from my posts that's your problem not mine.

I'm pretty sure the person "looking at people almighty" is the person looking to punish people unfairly for leaving an instance thinking they're "protecting the weak."

Lmao bye.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Actually when you choose to be mentor you are agreeing to be held to higher standard of behavior. You willing take on this responsibility. So be responsible. nobody is forcing them to queue as a mentor.

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That higher standard is defined by SE, not players, and staying in duties is not included there. You guys keep trying to turn the mentor system into something it's not, mentors are no more than regular players like you but with an extra chat channel to help people.

As long as this remains a game and mentors aren't being paid real money this remains a volunteer job that anyone can drop at any moment. You're free to sign up to the mentor system and help outnumber those "bad mentors", but you can't force them to play the way you want them to.

It would be lovely if we were all friendly, helpful and considerate.
Sadly some of us - thankfully the minority - are not any of those things. And, given the choice, I'd rather they left at the start of a run than spoil it for the rest just because it's a dungeon they hate. Which is the most likely outcome if the punishment for leaving is too harsh.
I never ever queue for the Trials roulette because I'm not willing to do Titan Ex unsync-ed. I don't think people should queue for anything if they're not prepared to endure every single one of the possible outcomes. If I got Titan, I'd bail fastest than ... something real fast! So I don't do trials. But there's really nothing I can do to hold another person to the standard I choose for myself. Whether they're a mentor or not, I can't force anything upon them. And I refuse to spoil the rest of my game time by getting mad about that.

If a mentor goes into mentor roulette and leaves I believe the penalty should be harsher. The entire point of that status is to help improve others, by leaving at the start of the run you're not doing what the system was intended for.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I never ever queue for the Trials roulette because I'm not willing to do Titan Ex unsync-ed.

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Oh uh just some info that might be helpful for you.

As of this post Titan EX is not in the Trial Roulette. So don't miss out on the tome bonus for it! You can safely queue for it.

Trial Roulette only has Normal and Hard mode Primals. No Extreme versions in there; they are only in Mentor Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Oh uh just some info that might be helpful for you.

As of this post Titan EX is not in the Trial Roulette. So don't miss out on the tome bonus for it! You can safely queue for it.

When you click on a roulette if you look in the adjacent window and scroll down it will show what duties are in that roulette.

Trial Roulette only has Normal and Hard mode Primals. No Extreme versions in there; they are only in Mentor Roulette.

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It actually doesnt even include ifrit, titan, and garuda normal. Those are in the leveling roulette.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It actually doesnt even include ifrit, titan, and garuda normal. Those are in the leveling roulette.

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Yes, I know, but it includes Normal Mode of HW primals (IE Containment Bay S1T7, Thordan, Containment Bay P1T6)...so it still does contain normal modes of certain primals. The main point was she is safe to queue for Trial Roulette because Extreme versions aren't in there.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

If a mentor goes into mentor roulette and leaves I believe the penalty should be harsher. The entire point of that status is to help improve others, by leaving at the start of the run you're not doing what the system was intended for.

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The point of the status to help improve new player skill by offering advice and answering questions.

Hey! I came back because I understood something. Mavrias would say that I ranked Moon level 10.

The key of that conflict is the time.
Mentors want the time they spend to be rewarded. But the roulette is not fair.
* Some missions are sure to succeed and short.
* Others are long or have high propability of failure.
So mentors dodge.

Apprentices want that mentors spend time on their side. They are angry because they do the opposite.
* They waste their queue time when they dodge.
* They mostly hepl on trivial and short content.

The reward system is a failure. The role of the mentor is to spend time with the apprentices.
The mentor should not be rewarded for the accomplishment of a quest, but should be rewarded for the time they spend.
The quest maybe a failure, the mission may be aborted by a vote, the mentor should still be rewarded.

If you follow that logic, I think many mentors would gladly help on any type of content.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

The reward system is a failure. The role of the mentor is to spend time with the apprentices.
The mentor should not be rewarded for the accomplishment of a quest, but should be rewarded for the time they spend.
The quest maybe a failure, the mission may be aborted by a vote, the mentor should still be rewarded.

If you follow that logic, I think many mentors would gladly help on any type of content.

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Yes, I'll gladly let the duty take as long as possible.

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Originally Posted by Pence

How do you propose they fix this? A penalty already exists.

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they're mentors. they should be held to a higher standard than other players. Ergo mentor roulette leaves should result in a harsher penalty. This is why people hate mentors. They get their special crown but act with less responsibility than your average player.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

they're mentors. they should be held to a higher standard than other players. Ergo mentor roulette leaves should result in a harsher penalty. This is why people hate mentors. They get their special crown but act with less responsibility than your average player.

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i think you are overreacting a little. (almost seen biased simply because "they got their special crown" but you didn't)
but non the less.. there are always good apple and bad apple. some people encounter bad ones more often and some less.
just relax a little after your anger and life goes on.

i joined a PF to help new player when no one else was joining only to see the PF disband and shows up again with "JPonly" *shrugs* i was a little pissed but you know.. life goes on.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Yes, I'll gladly let the duty take as long as possible.

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Why ? Once you finished, nothing prevents you to tag again on the mentor roulette.
You have nothing to earn by doing that. You are only hurting people.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Why ? Once you finished, nothing prevents you to tag again on the mentor roulette.
You have nothing to earn by doing that. You are only hurting people.

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You have to gain a better reward in the system your described. The whole issue here was because some people (and I want to make it clear that they're people, not mentors - you might aswell find a mentor in a dungeon that they havent entered by using their mentor roulette!) dont care that they hurt people by leaving duties they dont like. So your idea is to give them a new way of hurting people and benefitting from that?

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

The mentor should not be rewarded for the accomplishment of a quest, but should be rewarded for the time they spend.

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If the bonus for clearing is left, that's an interesting idea. Otherwise people are likelier to dodge hests, or let the roulette drag on. That would hurt more people vs. someone who left. The worst case scenario would be people faking AFK, making excuses every couple of minutes - dancing on the edge of being kicked but not quite there. If it's the tank or healer, that'd be disastrous.
The ultimate award should still be for the clearing of the content.

What's the partial award? The only motivation to running those roulettes is a mount locked behind an achievement. Do we get half a count if the duty was abandoned? What if we abandoned after 15 min vs. 45? Then we get the issue that people will burn time reaching those 45 min just for the bonus despite the party clearly not being one to clear the content.

I would just like to clarify something, if a mentor joins into a normal duty roulette (Expert, 60, Trial and such) I don't care, if they leave it should be the same penalty as all others. After all I can understand not wanting to run the same thing every day or doing the most annoying one each time, I get that. I have those days too. Yet when you make a conscious decision to select mentor roulette, I feel you should be held to a higher standard and a harsher penalty. After all your main goal is that giant mount, if that is not your goal, more than likely you are not the one dropping out of every mentor roulette cus its an unsync'd primal or a long dungeon cus you are there to actually mentor and help out if they need.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

So your idea is to give them a new way of hurting people and benefitting from that?

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Summary of my idea:
Mentors are rewarded each second they spend in a mentor roulette, not when they complete it.
If the quest is over fast, they just have to tag again on roulette and the reward chrono is restarted.

I don't see anything wrong that could come from that.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

If a mentor goes into mentor roulette and leaves I believe the penalty should be harsher. The entire point of that status is to help improve others, by leaving at the start of the run you're not doing what the system was intended for.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

they're mentors. they should be held to a higher standard than other players. Ergo mentor roulette leaves should result in a harsher penalty. This is why people hate mentors. They get their special crown but act with less responsibility than your average player.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Yet when you make a conscious decision to select mentor roulette, I feel you should be held to a higher standard and a harsher penalty.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

That higher standard is defined by SE, not players, and staying in duties is not included there. You guys keep trying to turn the mentor system into something it's not, mentors are no more than regular players like you but with an extra chat channel to help people.

As long as this remains a game and mentors aren't being paid real money this remains a volunteer job that anyone can drop at any moment. You're free to sign up to the mentor system and help outnumber those "bad mentors", but you can't force them to play the way you want them to.

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The bolded part is the biggest problem with the current incarnation of the mentor system when dealing with threads like this.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Summary of my idea:
Mentors are rewarded each second they spend in a mentor roulette, not when they complete it.
If the quest is over fast, they just have to tag again on roulette and the reward chrono is restarted.

I don't see anything wrong that could come from that.

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So I get rewarded for every second I spend in that duty - cool, I can just excuse myself for a few minutes and go make a cup of tea, do the dishes and walk the dog while my reward is ticking up.

Dont get me wrong, I generally consider that a decent idea - because its pretty frustrating to get EX-Primals in mentor-roulette, stick it out for the whole time, even help and mak progress but ultimatly fail and be rewarding with... nothing - even so much of a "nothing" that you often dont even get a "Thank you for your help/sticking around/explaining" (seriously, all those people complaining about mentors have no idea how frustrating it can really be to try and be a good mentor). So I do like the idea of being rewarded for effort rather than sucess (at least have failed duties count towards the achievment - those are most likely the ones you did the most mentoring in...), but your idea is still open for abuse, as I tried to show.

At this I believe we all need to take a step back, take a deep breath, realise its just a game - and stop trying to think about overcompliacted systems that might keep people in duties they dont want to do. I understand that having a person leave is annoying, but that person gets their 30 minute lockout, maybe its time to just leave it at that and accept that sometimes people will just bail - life goes on.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

So I get rewarded for every second I spend in that duty - cool, I can just excuse myself for a few minutes and go make a cup of tea, do the dishes and walk the dog while my reward is ticking up. your idea is still open for abuse, as I tried to show.

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Then you will get reported to SE. This is obvious illegal behaviour. Which is not the case of dodging. Furthermore you will probably be kicked too.

Is the method really complicated?

It's a game but if we can make it a better place, I won't say no :-)