Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Going to be fun when healers show up to sastasha hard with no esuna.

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Even better: Weeping City of Mhach (Ozma) or Dun Schaith (Doom status galore)

To be fair on that whitemage hotbar picture everyone seems to talk about. Theres also that ASTs pvp skill on it wich then means that that hotbar is more personal and probably doesnt show off the actual full toolkit we will get.

Also on that esuna thing, keep in mind you can set up those on the run in dungeons. So in case you get a healer without esuna in satasha hard you will wipe once, then tell him kindly how it works and he will pick esuna on role bar and you can go on. No real difference to someone who doesnt know that first boss fight to someone who doesnt have esuna ready for it. You will wipe on it regardless and its easy to fix because no disband/kick needed.

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

To be fair on that whitemage hotbar picture everyone seems to talk about. Theres also that ASTs pvp skill on it wich then means that that hotbar is more personal and probably doesnt show off the actual full toolkit we will get.

Also on that esuna thing, keep in mind you can set up those on the run in dungeons. So in case you get a healer without esuna in satasha hard you will wipe once, then tell him kindly how it works and he will pick esuna on role bar and you can go on. No real difference to someone who doesnt know that first boss fight to someone who doesnt have esuna ready for it. You will wipe on it regardless and its easy to fix because no disband/kick needed.

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What WHM is not having Presence of Mind and Stoneskin on their hotbars, though? Besides, aren't PvP skills also getting reworked? Didn't watch that part anymore since I don't give a damn about PvP, but as far as I know, they change a lot there, too, and maybe that skill will be usable for WHM, too. We don't know.
Since you are out of town in a dungeon, this will take some waiting time, though, and will put all your timers on CD. Not really a good option in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

They said all the Stone spells stack. It would make no sense for one to be an AoE while the others are single target. I also don't see why SE would give us another AoE when we already have Aero III, Holy, and Assize. Based on how the spell looked, I thought Aero II was an AoE when I was first starting out. Just because a spell looks like it should be an AoE doesn't mean it is.

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From what I gathered from Mr. Happy's video was that tier spells will adjust and scale according to the instance. This way, you don't have to put stone 1,2, and 3 on your hotbar. Only the highest tier, and if you happen to roulette into Sastasha, it will automatically update to stone 1.

I could reflect the same argument back to you, and just because a spell has a tier number doesn't mean it's a single target ability (Thunder 2 and 4). It is a big reason why the playerbase is calling for these names to be changed to have the -aga suffix to clearly state that they are AoE. Also, just because WHM already has three AoEs is no reason to not give them another. We're losing blizz 2, and we don't quite know what break does yet. Holy needs a filler between casts to take full advantage of stun, Aero III is an AoE DoT, and Assize has a 90sec cooldown. They actually need additional AoE.

Due to the casting animation, and the ground effect, I will be thoroughly convinced that stone IV is AoE until stated otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

It would still make them stay longer in Umbral, equalling a DPS loss, and DPS loss is bad. Ask any bard who ever had to play mp song, ever. So, not going to happen.

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Read the last sentence I wrote and then think about it again. If you can't figure it out I will answer later.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Since you are out of town in a dungeon, this will take some waiting time, though, and will put all your timers on CD. Not really a good option in my eyes.

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Didn't they say changing jobs outside of a sanctuary wouldn't impose the cooldown penalty? With the role skill system and the system of roulettes, I'd be surprised if the same didn't apply to role skill changes. You can probably just switch them around so long as you're not in combat.

Sigh.

Okay then, it's the end of the world for WHM. I'm out of these threads lmfao.

Says the one who runs a class that, for gods know what reason, has never received an obvious nerf, even though it's been clearly overpowered since 2.0. To someone who is concerned about a class that, for gods know what reason, has been nerfed pretty continuously since 2.0, in a game that prides itself on buffing classes instead of nerfing them. You do know that WHMs are arguing from past dev actions and not pulling doomsday scenarios out of thin air, right?

You know. What I don't understand is, why did SE decide to fix PLD issues, Monk issues, but completely ignore WHMs. Do they think it's fine as it is? That's extremely hard to believe.

Sigh. This sucks.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Says the one who runs a class that, for gods know what reason, has never received an obvious nerf, even though it's been clearly overpowered since 2.0. To someone who is concerned about a class that, for gods know what reason, has been nerfed pretty continuously since 2.0, in a game that prides itself on buffing classes instead of nerfing them. You do know that WHMs are arguing from past dev actions and not pulling doomsday scenarios out of thin air, right?

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Hahahahahahaha.

I main SCH because it's what my raid group needed most recently. I have all three healers and have used them all in raid. My first healer was WHM actually.

To completely counter your point, though, I used to main Paladin throughout all of Gordias and well into Midas. PALADIN. Believe me, no WHM can ever tell a PLD main about nerfs and buffs and lack of viability. WHM stayed in a pretty healthy spot through all of Gordias and well into Midas as well, and even now you aren't a detriment to your party's progression as a WHM, like PLD was through Gordias, and Creator in A12S. Paladins actually held their groups back in Gordias, like, legit kept them from clearing through the first weeks.

The only reason WHM is mostly benched right now is because of the ridiculous buffs Balance got in 3.4, but WHM is more than perfectly capable of clearing every single bit of content that has been released in the game. Before 3.4, yes, WHM was sub-optimal, but you never saw WHM get benched, ever. Some parties even preferred having a WHM in early A8S progression just because the healing checks were pretty heavy for low ILs.

WHM has never been a liability. WHM has never seen as much neglect as PLD has, so please don't bring up that bs with me. Yes, you lost Pro-Shell. Yes, you lost Graniteskin. But neither of those ruined WHM. And it's very obvious why Graniteskin had to go now that we have tanks and DPS with HP pools over 25-40k.

Read all of the above about Paladin, and you'll understand why I think everyone who's saying WHM is ruined for "another" expansion is overreacting and making fools of themselves.

Anyways, having said that, I'm officially out of this thread. But seriously, thanks to you guys I have a low opinion of WHM mains now. The only reason I will not wish that WHM actually gets super shafted is because I like Gemina and I wish her the best.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Salty rant

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Why does a job need to sink so low as to become a detriment in order to get fixed or get the attention it needs? Is it not the job of the devs and the community to listen to and provide feedback (respectively) so that this doesn't happen? Yeah, WHM is fine in content that requires healing because that's what the devs made it do-- heal. But that doesn't mean that it's not being eclipsed in utility when it comes down to SCH and AST. Can you honestly tell me, right now, one good reason a group would take a white mage to The Interdimensional Rift when they can have a SCH/AST combo instead? What is it you think a WHM can do that a Scholar and Astrologian can't do while providing just as sufficient healing power as a white mage does?

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

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Oh, really now. Then please, tell me why, for example, I barely ever found a duty finder group for stuff like Zurvan willing to take a WHM with them. And I don't mean I joined them and got kicked for underperforming, I literally only found groups searching for SCH/AST teams or only one or the other. Tell me why 90% of all raid statics search AST/SCH instead of WHM. Tell me why I had two groups normally running with AST complain that they are slower than usual in their Alexander Savage kills, even though I gave it my all, pushed out not too shabby DPS, while solo-healing and nobody dying. If WHM isn't a liability, then why does nobody want to take the class for anything but casual or farm content. Before 3.4 WHM was suboptimal? Aren't you confusing something here? Balance and how ridiculous AST buffs were destroyed the class, because why take it when AST is simply better in everything it does. Can WHM clear everything? YES. Is WHM prefered for anything, or has significant advantages over AST or SCH? NO.

And that's exactly what this here is about, and what you apparently don't want to get into your head. WHM complain because we don't get what we need to stay competitive and what literally everyone else in our role has. We instead, once again, loose something were we should win instead. You played PLD? Shouldn't you know best why we are so scared right now, then? As things look like right now, they are screwing WHM over, again, and nothing they showed or said so far implied the opposite. We shouldn't be too worked up because we need to take up Shroud from the job action list? Because now others can manage our MP for us? Do you even know how ridiculous this statement actually is???
Ever since 2.0, bards complained with no end about having to play MP song for healers, because it lowers their dps. Why exactly should this be any different in the future, huh? Give only one good reason why this should change. ONE. I dare you.

And yes, we actually can, because if I count all nerfes and all buffs WHM ever got, nerfs beat buffs at least 6:1. Holy? Got nerfed three times if you count 1.0, too. Stoneskin? Nerfed. Now most likely removed. Protect? Everyone can have it. Cure III? I count that as a nerf since I actually prefered the old trait; which, btw, AST ended up getting. I also preferred the old Medica II, btw, even if that change was more neutral in the end. Oh, right, they also nerfed, and now likely removed, Presence of Mind. I honestly cannot remember all nerfs WHM got because there are simply too many of them for me to keep track.

Also, didn't you want to stay away from this topics?

WHMs have the right to be upset right now:


Our job action trailer is one of the worst to be shown (2 shared actions, Aero 3, Aero 2, Stone 4, some cures, only the water barrier thingy is somewhat interesting).

Yoshida's comment of "Bolstering WHM's focus as a Pure Healer" (Paraphrased).

1 of WHM's key defining skills - Divine Seal is relegated to shared actions and Yoshida did not even address this in any way shape or form, which in turn caused players to wildly speculate.

All of the above AFTER Yoshida have promised us they'll look into healer and tank balance. (To be fair, it seems they did manage to deliver half of it based on feedback regarding Paladins, unfortunately WHM is the undelivered part).


That being said, complaining will not help at this stage of the development, so let's be the better person and wait impatiently for SB to drop for our final verdict.
And if the verdict is as what we feared? Then that's the time for us WHM brethren to rise up and campaign for change in 4.1.

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Originally Posted by Anastacy

You won't always need Esuna.

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True, but even if you only need Esuna sometimes, you're pretty much going to need to take it all of the time. e.g. It may be that rare dungeon that actually needs Esuna, but if you are going into a roulette, can you really take the chance you are not going to end up in that one dungeon that has a nasty debuff (or Doom)? Sorry guys, don't have a Esuna, can't do this... not a good look.

By making Esuna optional though, does this now mean that it really is optional? i.e. is the worst we are ever going to see outside of a savage raid a minor poison or slow? Because if not, I thought the whole point of this cross-role thing is so that people didn't end up without the tools to do the job, and if so, then FFXIV just got way more boring :(

PS. Not sure about you, but I have no love for having to swap abilities (and hotbar buttons) based on content, so if all these skills are not truely optional then this new 'improved' system is nothing but a backwards step.

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

Also on that esuna thing, keep in mind you can set up those on the run in dungeons.

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If that is the case, then why not just cut out the middle man let us have all of 'sometimes required' abilities all of the time... seriously, swaping stuff in and out like that is going to be a major pain, and likely take up the hotbar space anyway just so that you can press it from muscle memory and not having to remember that your X ability is now Y.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Didn't they say changing jobs outside of a sanctuary wouldn't impose the cooldown penalty? With the role skill system and the system of roulettes, I'd be surprised if the same didn't apply to role skill changes. You can probably just switch them around so long as you're not in combat.

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Then what is the point of even making them 'optional'? Simply to make us stop every other pull because boss A has a debuff that needs to be removed and boss B doesn't... That just sounds like are serious pain, not to mention really bad design; is the new 'skill gap' going to be knowing what abilities you need to have equiped for a given encounter? I would like to think that this new system won't be that annoying, but given the abilities they chose to put in it, I don't have very high hopes.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Due to the casting animation, and the ground effect, I will be thoroughly convinced that stone IV is AoE until stated otherwise.

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Well given the fact on the very slide where they talked about combining actions in this manner, they specifically listed Stone I through Stone IV, I'd say it's almost certainly a single target spell.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I could reflect the same argument back to you, and just because a spell has a tier number doesn't mean it's a single target ability (Thunder 2 and 4).

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My point in mentioning Thunder was that the single target spells will stack and the AoE spells will stack. If Stone IV is an AoE, then it should not/ would not stack with the single target spells, since there will always be times when you prefer to use single target spells instead of AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Didn't they say changing jobs outside of a sanctuary wouldn't impose the cooldown penalty? With the role skill system and the system of roulettes, I'd be surprised if the same didn't apply to role skill changes. You can probably just switch them around so long as you're not in combat.

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They had said that spells/ skills would not have a cooldown, but abilities still will have a cooldown. That makes me assume that anything (or at least most things) on the role skill would have a cooldown, since most of those seem to be abilities currently, unless they're changing that too. *sighs* Wish I could translate Japanese now.

So, let me get this straight. You're saying that WHMs aren't allowed to complain about anything because they aren't bad to the point of exclusion just yet?...=/
Why would you purposely ignore something that's bound to happen? We all see it coming. WHM can't survive off pure heals in a game where others healers match that healing level just as good, if not better, while offering more to the raid.
Why sweep this under the rug and pretend it's OK until WHM is excluded from PF and isn't allowed to join savage? I mean hell, the later part is already taking place.

Yet YOU have a low opinion of US because we aren't going to sit on our thumbs and not do anything until our job is destroyed. Lol OK.

Seems like it will just be the vanilla healer. Most boring animations, and most boring skills. However, since new healers would probably flock to WHM first they probably want to keep it boring and simple so they aren't overwhelmed. Just sit and heal basically, until the healer gets good enough to micro a fairy or deal with cards...

It reminds me of 2.x all over again. Do we all remember those times as the pf and static recruitment looked like this? (SCH/SCH). For me personally, since I don't main healer anymore, all I can say is, at least I do get butterflies and that's all that matters to me, but I do hope for the people that actually get enjoyment out of the whm, that someone looks into that and will make some changes, if it turns out as bad as it currently looks like. I know how it feels when you main something and love playing it, and then someone breaks it, thinking it's better for the balance or whatever reason and you'll find yourself having to switch to a other job, that you don't enjoy very much.

None of us actually have any idea how the whm toolkit or feel are going to turn out but as expansions are added and hp totals rise surely pure healing is going to become more useful anyway.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

My point in mentioning Thunder was that the single target spells will stack and the AoE spells will stack. If Stone IV is an AoE, then it should not/ would not stack with the single target spells, since there will always be times when you prefer to use single target spells instead of AoEs.

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There's nothing wrong with that. You simply want it to stack since it is a tier IV spell. My point with Thunder is you have tier 1-4, and they are split, yet you don't have an issue with that?

While it would be nice for it to be single target, and you only take up one hotbar slot, and never worry again. But I will gladly use up another hotbar slot for a Stonega, while using another for Stone 1-3. Stone IV would be greyed out in lower instances, which is nothing we are not already used to. You still have Stone 3 for single target, much like Aero 2.

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Originally Posted by Azper

Well given the fact on the very slide where they talked about combining actions in this manner, they specifically listed Stone I through Stone IV, I'd say it's almost certainly a single target spell.

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Nah! I'll bet you 100 kupo nuts, and my Niddy card, which you can trade for 1500 MGP if you already have it :p

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Originally Posted by Lynca

hm i dont see any whm in these groups..

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Then you did it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...of_a12s_party/

This analysis suggests otherwise. Scholar remained fairly consistent throughout Heavensward while Astro pulled ahead significantly the higher parse percentile climbed. Checking overall rankings on FFLogs based on parse uploaded, White Mage averaged approximately half their other healer counterparts through Creator; a substantially drop from Midas where they averaged more than double Astro.

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Yes they dropped. But when you count all pages of all 3 healers in "Standard Comp" (not the later ones as these don't matter for anything), the Whitemage is inbetween both.

Numers of SE own statistics will be similiar and these numbers are the base SE will make their decicions. That was also the reason they said on EU Fanfest "Healers are balanced well". Its not about how good they are. Its just about how many of them get used by ppl.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

There's nothing wrong with that. You simply want it to stack since it is a tier IV spell. My point with Thunder is you have tier 1-4, and they are split, yet you don't have an issue with that?.

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My issue isn't that I want it to stack since it's a tier IV spell... In the Live Letter they showed that Stone, Stone II, Stone III, and Stone IV will all stack together. If it's an AoE spell, it would stack separately instead (like they said Thunder and Thunder III stack since both are single target and said that Thunder II and Thunder IV stack separately since both will be AoE). I'm not sure how else to make that clear to you.

Question: Can someone explain why I keep seeing stuff about speculation that Presence of Mind is gone? In the Live Letter Yoshi-P did have that on his bars. Are we speculating it will be changed because of the lily job thing, or are people just freaking out and didn't notice it there?

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Oh, really now. Then please, tell me why, for example, I barely ever found a duty finder group for stuff like Zurvan willing to take a WHM with them.

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Not really a legit point, there is generally always a couple of PFs that only want PLD and WHM for A12S, bads will be bad =(

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Tell me why 90% of all raid statics search AST/SCH instead of WHM.

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Prove your worth and I suspect they will be happy to let you run WHM. Communicate and ask. If they still flat out refuse, I suspect you're dodging a bullet.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

If WHM isn't a liability, then why does nobody want to take the class for anything but casual or farm content.

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This is so because unfortunately people will blindly follow the meta if they don't know better =(

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

because why take it when AST is simply better in everything it does. Can WHM clear everything? YES. Is WHM prefered for anything, or has significant advantages over AST or SCH? NO.

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WHMs have the best single target dps as well as significantly less ramp up time than SCH.
WHMs have the best aoe burst potential (at the expense of sustainability).
WHMs have the best aoe HPS potential bar none.
WHMs have the biggest aoe range.

Gordias played to this beautifully, healing A1S and A3S as an AST was horrible, missing someone with helios risked a wipe at times during progression. Creator is the polar opposite and just doesn't require any of the kit WHMs bring to the table. I can think of 1 point in the entire tier where I missed Cure 3's HPS throughput nor were there any points where Medica II's was missed. This is more of a content issue than any intrinsic fault with the job itself.

The elephant in the room here is (the ironically named) balance. As things appear at the moment, 4.0 is going be a godsend for WHMs personal DPS and whilst it's clearly not going to make up for balance in a raid setting, I don't feel that it's a 'liability' at all. If the content deems to reward a WHMs strengths then it'll be right back in the mix.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

Question: Can someone explain why I keep seeing stuff about speculation that Presence of Mind is gone? In the Live Letter Yoshi-P did have that on his bars. Are we speculating it will be changed because of the lily job thing, or are people just freaking out and didn't notice it there?

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I have no idea why this is being said. Some people might be confusing it with Divine Seal and then it just spread as a rumor maybe.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

What is it you think a WHM can do that a Scholar and Astrologian can't do while providing just as sufficient healing power as a white mage does?

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up to 6-7k reg ticks. that's a unique thing none of the other healers can provide ^^

edit: oh and of course this:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This is so because unfortunately people will blindly follow the meta if they don't know better =(

WHMs have the best single target dps as well as significantly less ramp up time than SCH.
WHMs have the best aoe burst potential (at the expense of sustainability).
WHMs have the best aoe HPS potential bar none.
WHMs have the biggest aoe range.

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Lmao so many people thinking the sky is falling. It's like complaining that the entree is undercooked when you're only on the appetizer

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Originally Posted by Zaresin

Lmao so many people thinking the sky is falling. It's like complaining that the entree is undercooked when you're only on the appetizer

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yeah im smiling as well ^^

i started as Brd - in times everybody laughed about their dmg.
switched to Smn - 50 ARR cap -> everybody said Smn aren't DDs at all.
than I raised Whm - everybody said why are you taking the one in Asts/Schs shadow?

hmm most probably I like the underdog feeling, if nobody else play your cls, you may get the feeling of being kind of unique in the end.

Like most of my fun builds sks Mnk, parry Drk, ss Caster (before the stat weight changes), MP-Brds and others. ^^

Let's try to stay positive, at least you can see the positive aspect of the mp management that's been quite nicely balanced, if it goes as i think it should:

All three healer get a 21S shroud from cross skill
WHM loses his shroud
AST loses his lumi
SCH loses the 20% on aetherflux (i would be surprised he doesnt while having access to shroud and not losing his main mp management skill)

leaving them with, as personnal mp skills:
Assize (10%) for WHM
CO and Ewer for AST
Drain for Sch

Which, in my opinion, seems quite decent for all 3. Both AST and SCh mp management get nerfed, WHM get boosted, but all 3 seems to finaly get close to each other in this aspect.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

First of all, the lilies seem to build only during healing, which is already bad because most healers slap on regens and keep dpsing. So we'll only benefit from our new abilities as we heal.

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Oh, I didn't even notice that part, I only watched the WHM video once. But if that's true, it's even worse. People would just overheal like mad only to get the buff. So WHM will probably be even worse off than we think it will be.

I really like the aesthetics of WHM, the nature and holy aspect of it and the weapons (I rather have a magic cane than a book or space stuff), but well, I'll probably play AST then. I already play it more than WHM now. I'll still level WHM first, just to see how bad it will be. xD

I really wonder... if the devs hate WHM so much, why not remove it completely? What use is there to have two healers with various abilities and one healer that has nothing interesting aside from heals?

Does Celestial Opposition help AST with mana?

Don't forget all the mp exchanging abilities that have been added in. MP worries might be mute at the high-level now anyway. Here's to arguing over who deserves the mana swaps for the next 3 years o/

Assuming CO can still extend the new shroud replacement, yes.

well, CO can extend aether luminifere by 10s, so i'm pretty sure AST will be able to extend the new mp regen and get more mp from it. (There is no way CO wouldnt extend it, since all buff AST put can be extended this way, food and pots included)

Reading thru the thread I see the underlining issue..... You have casual players arguing with core players about how the Devs should cater their game to such-and-such side.. It's possible to fine tune a Job to be fairly simple to use and enjoy for causal AND at the same time provide specificity the Core players can optimize....

HOwever our current ISSUE for CORE PLAYERS IS.... whm current design ISN'T OPTIMAL for CORE players over that of the other two healers (like someone stated there isn't enough sustained raid dmg to merits whm consistently superior HPS.....everything can be optimally covered by Sch's Bursts and AST's decent HPS and their combined utilities).

What we CORE hope for is that IF whm mages becomes a PURE HEALER.... make the other two not as PURE; not to where ast/sch can't sufficiently complete the content but to where an ast/whm or an whm/sch fills a gap(s) that are noticeable over that of ast/sch. Basically it should have a trade-off for each healer composition. if AST provides consistent raid DPS then their healing should suffer noticeably to that of the other healers. IF sch has OP shields and reduction utility their their instant healing (stuff like emergency tactic, indom,......F*#$ing broken...) should be nonexistent or on on extremely long cds (30 sec on a raid oGCD is a f*$#ing joke...... and it's more potent then a GCD helio/medica is just wrong.......) . Lastly Whm being a pure healer should have the highest regen and instant healing abilities but lack shields and other dmg reduction abilites (which it is already designed like that).

We have to wait an see what the utilites for each class are AS WELL AS the content that demands these utilities (that's really what made current WHM obsolete)

To be fair the other healers look like they will have to manage more healing/ support items too over dpsing. Maybe they will be doing something to shift the current healer meta of you must dps too. In this case the more powerful whm healing may allow them dps more easily. Only time will tell. Less than a month til head start.

I thought it was spectacular. It gave me that push I needed to finally get my AST to 60 in time for SB. Thanks SE!

/s

I get it. We don't know exactly what it'll be like on release, but it's not looking good, and what I've learned is, if it smells bad, it probably tastes bad. I get that the Dev's have this vision of WHM being the pure healer, but unfortunately, come SB, the community is about to show them why that just isn't going to work. At least for raiding anyway.