[1206] Water spells

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Originally Posted by Zangetsu

Water keeps you alive!

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But like the great Robin williams from the awesome movie of jumanji- Enough water can kill you.

I think this is one of the worst ideas... THE worst idea they came out over the last 6 months.
I'm all for giving classes more sense of uniqueness, that was definitely necessary.
But THIS way?
They should have taken this chance to give the game a bigger "FF-esque" feeling. They did an excellent job on that regard with 1.18 and 1.19, why not continuing the fantastic direction making this game feel even more FF-esque?
Spell names, spell tiers... I could even accept the single tier thing (it's ok for offensive magic, complicated to balance when it come to healing, but I could be ok with it all) but what about this terrible, ugly, homogeneization?

Each class gets ONLY 15 actions? EVERY class gets the same number?
What kind of crap is that? :(
Use 15 as an INDICATIVE number and give classes numbers that try to stay as much as possible close to that.
Why giving developers these boundaries, these limits? It's like they want to put themselves in chain, being FORCED to give every class 15 actions.
And the traits? What if a class feels fun, balanced and complete with just 13 actions and 9 traits? (after the removal of tiers).
No problem, we'll give it 2 useless traits and 2 useless actions, nobody will use them and they will be crap but hey, it's needed to reach the 15/11 numbers!

Wanna talk about Conjurers? They had SIX elemental spells and SIX debuffs, now they're getting just 3 elements... And Thaumaturges, all of a sudden and for no reason, after being the masters of life and death (light and dark spells) get 3 conjurer spells...


Maybe I need to cool my mind off a bit, but several days have passed already and that action list (even the couple of JOBs action, look like... nothing fantastic or that makes you want to scream: "hey! can't wait to try that!" or "can't wait to play with those!") with fixed numbers for ALL classes is just the biggest crap decision I read since the afterlaunch of the game.

Really... makes you wonder if they're trying to drive people away only to make them come back with 2.0.
After so many successful things achieved by Yoshi-P's team, despite high and lows, I totally didn't see this coming...

Someone help me cool down please :( I was so excited and now I Feel this uncommensurable feeling of disappointment...

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

At first I thought that there was an actual issue here.

Then I realized that the it's the usual blown out of proportion forum nonsense.

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I see people crying over enfeebs but the problem is who the fuck really cares you can hardly see the effects of them anyhow, only the DoT spells was good @ one time but they was OP so they got nerfed, and slow barley does anything to ifrit. I kept slow on ifrit an whole fight and he still parses the same DMG on the tank lol

I really don't like what they are doing with Conjurer and Thaumaturge. I wish they would leave the classes alone and give Conjurer the ability to change between White Mage AND Black Mage, Thaumaturge should have a different job tied to it, something like Red Mage or Time Mage, anything that isn't a job the Conjurer should have.

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

I really don't like what they are doing with Conjurer and Thaumaturge. I wish they would leave the classes alone and give Conjurer the ability to change between White Mage AND Black Mage, Thaumaturge should have a different job tied to it, something like Red Mage or Time Mage, anything that isn't a job the Conjurer should have.

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That's definitely what they should have done, why linking each class to a single job anwyay? Pugil could have become THF and MNK for example, Archer could have become RNG and BRD, Conjurer could have become WHM and BLM...
But alas we're getting this... crap.

They could have easily sorted it with CNJ getting both WHM and BLM, but noooo they had to destroy both CNJ and THM.
And what is this 15 actions limit for each class seriously? CNJ and THM lost half of their spells, even if you don't take into account the multiple tiers.
Seriously... worst update since launch.

The initial idea of making classes more unique and standing out from each other, limiting the way you can equip actions from other classes with (almost) the same efficiency... those were all very good points and we could all agree something had to be done, but NOT this damnit! :( :(

... But Flood was the most awesome AM in 11 lol D:

These changes are just so strange and unpredicted I wish Yoshi-P would give us more information. We cannot give constructive criticism when we are all going WTFBBQ!?

I'm clinging to hope though, I'm giddy that we may end up seeing jobs like Time Mage down the line, and that while we only have a few abilities to 50, I'm wondering what we will get 50-100(?) to make up for it.

My concern is classes/jobs will be too trimmed down. For example, there were plenty of jobs in FFTactics, but they didnt really have many abilities. Whereas in 11 a lot of jobs were combined into 1 job which made it a bit more fun.

If I could get Time mage, i would gladly wait for bind/slow etc.

Please give me time mage SE, I miss it so :(

As for offensive water spells, not sure what the thought behind it is, but I imagine it could be that they've given water spells healing properties as others have suggested.

So no enfeebling spells?

Guess Pugilists are about to become pretty popular then having weapons with built-in debuffs. XD

Alchemist too if the debuff potions stay.

Just thought of something.

If cure magic does become water based, how will this effect the current elemental wheel?

AFAIK the elemental wheel is:

Lightning > Water > Earth > Lightning
Fire > Ice > Wind > Fire

So if there are no water based nukes, how will this affect the elemental wheel? Is it going to be completely redone?

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Heartbreaking. This game has been transformed in to complete rubbish.
No enfeebling? All tactics out the window. No more gearing your character in enfeebling gear to land that slow.
Another theme-park MMO for the dwindling masses.

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Yes, this couldn't be part of a long term plan by them (the game isn't back in alpha phase, or anything!), they must be catering to those dumb casuals who ruin everything sacred about gaming. You're also not being irrational or making assumptions at all.

I'd prefer that CNJ get the Banish and Scourge spells that THM has, and that THM gets all of the elemental magic that CNJ currently has. If THM is to be the BLM, it should be the elemental magic master, and as CNJ is to be WHM, Light and Dark magic makes a bit more sense for it.

I strongly think they should revise what they're doing here. It's very simple what they have to do. They want to keep their original classes of White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage, they need to show it. All of these adjustments and butchering of certain jobs is a really bad idea.

They need to improvise and work upon, not cut pieces out of ? job and ? job. They need to keep them what they are as far as their respective roles entail.

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Originally Posted by Mikiko

I'd prefer that CNJ get the Banish and Scourge spells that THM has, and that THM gets all of the elemental magic that CNJ currently has. If THM is to be the BLM, it should be the elemental magic master, and as CNJ is to be WHM, Light and Dark magic makes a bit more sense for it.

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THIS

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Just thought of something.

If cure magic does become water based, how will this effect the current elemental wheel?

AFAIK the elemental wheel is:

Lightning > Water > Earth > Lightning
Fire > Ice > Wind > Fire

So if there are no water based nukes, how will this affect the elemental wheel? Is it going to be completely redone?

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thats what i dont get.

there will be a hole as to which nuke will over power which elementally based mob.

The elemental wheel may very well stay the same but you just can't abuse it the same way.

In FFXI or XIV it's not like they make things significantly overpowered really, it just ups accuracy of your spells as far as I recall?

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Originally Posted by Mikiko

I'd prefer that CNJ get the Banish and Scourge spells that THM has, and that THM gets all of the elemental magic that CNJ currently has. If THM is to be the BLM, it should be the elemental magic master, and as CNJ is to be WHM, Light and Dark magic makes a bit more sense for it.

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So... What you're saying is... Conjurer should become Thaumaturge.... and Thaumaturge become Conjurer...

Ok, a few comments here:

First, no water? Really? Isn't that one of the traditional elements if not the most important? So, what will happen to all the water based arms we have now like Wand of Tides, water scepter or whatever its called, etc.?

Second, do they not plan to implement Leviathan as a primal? Last time I checked, he was water-based. What are they going to do when they add him? Make him ice?? It's absurd.

Finally, as Jinyra said, no debuffs are unacceptable, silence especially. It's absolutely necessary for the mage mobs within the strongholds. But, before we lose are tempers, Yoshida has mentioned in numerous interviews that the ratio of mage classes to melee classes is unbalanced and the first new job before anything else will be a mage class. (Thank god.) I'm hoping this new mage class will be somewhat of a debuffer/support class.

Poison suppose to be a basic of enfeebing spell. Please reconsider about not having them untill 2.0

So much fail, I don't even know where to begin.

This would be close though
http://i.imgur.com/afdjJ.jpg

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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Please clarify if this means no debuffing in the period from now to 2.0 or no enfeebling magic, ever, ever ever?

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Originally Posted by RikkCavalier

Second, do they not plan to implement Leviathan as a primal? Last time I checked, he was water-based. What are they going to do when they add him? Make him ice?? It's absurd.

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I know March of this year seems like a long time ago, but Japan suffered its worst tsunami in recent memory which resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands, entire towns swallowed whole, and an ongoing nuclear crisis at the Fukushima power plant.

Making light of tsunamis with Leviathan would probably be received in poor taste at this time.

The way I see it, the removal of a large set of spells that were minimaly usefull at best is no great lose. Keep in mind, this is from a player who leveld and played THM with entent of utiliing the CC abilities they had. In the end the MP siphon, Drain, TP siphon worked well. BUT paralyze, slow, gravity, bind, silence, blind, all appeared to me to not work properly most of the time or in some cases, none of the time, or just have plain ole' faulty mechanics. The absorb acc, atk, def, and eva, all seem t have so little impact, that most everyone I know just don't bother with them.

My point is that the enebling abilites were to minimal of an effect to effect battles in my opinion. I would much rather see them fixed then to see them gone. If they are removed as planned, the certainly need to redesign them and make a new CC enfeebling class that can utilize them in a manner that allows them to change the flow of battle.

Can you also give us some of the reasoning behind the disappearance of Water as an offensive spell and the elimination of enfeebling magic? This whole issue will be much less likely to create a spike of animus against the plans of the development team, if they allow us to understand why this is being done, and towards which end.

Just removing a structure that was shown to us as essential from the beginning of the game will make us feel deprived, but giving us a few glimpses of the new structure will make us feel reassured. Showing us the end towards which we are moving will allow us to understand your reasoning and dispel the whiff of arbitrariness we are now getting. The structure the developers are toying with was presented to us as a fundamental object of necessary knowledge, a core constituent of the Adventurer's efforts to understand and conquer the world. Telling us it will be taken away without letting us see what will replace it... this is very likely to make everybody feel mutilated.

Rukkirii, thanks for the reply, but could you please elaborate some more... as it stands, your bare-bones answer is very disquieting to many of us.

R

This can't be serious... do they seriously expect us to play this MMO for almost another year without any debuffs? That is a great way to get quite a lot of bad press about how this game is a joke.

I was really happy about the changes until this recent week when they apparently decided to dumb down the game significantly. They might as well shut it down till 2.0 if this is the kind of crap they are going to pull.

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Originally Posted by Arximiro

This can't be serious... do they seriously expect us to play this MMO for almost another year without any debuffs? That is a great way to get quite a lot of bad press about how this game is a joke.

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Blind is there, Heavy(Gravity) is there, Bind is there, Stun is there, Sleepga is there.

They don't need to actually do anything for media and people like you to twist the info as if they were.

Generic FF debuffs do not make the game any more complex.

I don't really like this news.. No Water-based Attack spells... What If you're fighting a "Weak to water" monster and want to put out the best output of damage but can't? I think this thing creates Imbalance in the Elemental wheel, Unless SE tells us their reason and goal for doing this.

Why not just do this Division for Mages:
Thaumaturge-Black Mage:
-Fire-Attack|DoT
-Ice-Attack|DoT
-Lightning-Attack|DoT
-Wind-Attack|
-Water-Attack|
-Earth-Attack|

Conjurer-White Mage:
-Fire-Enhancing Magic
-Ice-Enhancing Magic
-Lightning-Enhancing Magic
-Wind-Enhancing Magic|DoT
-Water-Enhancing Magic|DoT
-Earth-Enhancing Magic|DoT

As for the Enfeebling Magic, I think I can wait.

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What If you're fighting a "Weak to water" monster and want to put out the best output of damage but can't?

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It's as if you assume that the developers can not control the game they are making.

In either case you'll deal exactly as much damage as the designers let you.

To me it feels like magic is shifting more towards focusing on what the effect of the spell is and utilizing it in the right situations rather than focusing on the element itself.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

So... What you're saying is... Conjurer should become Thaumaturge.... and Thaumaturge become Conjurer...

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Considering everybody thought THM was going to be WHM before it was announced otherwise, I don't see why not. WHM on XI has Banish spells, and Scourge could fit that role a bit as well. Having the elemental magic split between two classes is silly, even with the action bar and the ability to set any spells and abilities you want.

So if I get this right then we're going to pay for a nerfed, simplied game this month and next year when 2.0 comes out, we get to pretend we get new abilities, but they're actually just the old ones, we've already been using for a year now.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

So if I get this right then we're going to pay for a nerfed, simplied game this month and next year when 2.0 comes out, we get to pretend we get new abilities, but they're actually just the old ones, we've already been using for a year now.

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... or, maybe those enfeebles are planned for a different job or, call me crazy here, we're gonna get cap increase. And those spells.

And you're going to pay after exhibiting this negative outlook of the game? Must be a masochist.

I'm liking the game right now a lot tyvm. Going back to a simplified game does not rock my world.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

So if I get this right then we're going to pay for a nerfed, simplied game this month and next year when 2.0 comes out, we get to pretend we get new abilities, but they're actually just the old ones, we've already been using for a year now.

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That's the gist of it... Seems like every time I start considering maybe I'm just getting it something else comes along and makes me go "WTF SE?" instead. Anyone feeling like SE is starting to slip into their old habits again of hiding information? Hopefully Yoshida puts out a new Letter from the Producer this week to explain their changes and shed some more clues as to these changes they're throwing at us and not something like "We apologize you're not happy with these changes, please bear with us as we work on making FINAL FANTASY XIV the best MMO it can be".

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Originally Posted by Mikiko

Considering everybody thought THM was going to be WHM before it was announced otherwise, I don't see why not.

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the 5 people that couldn't read the class description or notice the blatantly obvious shift of con -> healer does not constitute "everybody"

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

the 5 people that couldn't read the class description or notice the blatantly obvious shift of con -> healer does not constitute "everybody"

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Yeah, the one that showed a conjurer in a black mage hat surrounded by all 6 elements. Totally screamed healer.

There is a difference between having an elemental wheel, and having elemental strengths and weaknesses. Not having a wheel doesn't mean weaknesses still don't occur.

Earth, Water, & Wind seem to be the defensive/healing elements. Creatures like moles and spriggans would be highly Earth oriented. Crabs and jellyfish would be Water. Birds and flies would be Wind.

Now looking at the destructive elements we have Fire, Lightning, and Ice.

Fire could be strong against Wind creatures and defenses (i.e. Wind fans the flames), mediocre against Earth creatures and defenses (e.g. Stoneskin), and weak against Water creatures and defenses (e.g. Aquaveil). Lightning could be strong against Water, mediocre versus Wind, and weak against Earth. Ice could be strong versus Earth (think glaciers), mediocre versus Water, and weak versus Wind.

So just because there isn't a "wheel" doesn't mean that we won't still strategically use strong and weak elements.

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Originally Posted by Mikiko

Considering everybody thought THM was going to be WHM before it was announced otherwise, I don't see why not. WHM on XI has Banish spells, and Scourge could fit that role a bit as well. Having the elemental magic split between two classes is silly, even with the action bar and the ability to set any spells and abilities you want.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

the 5 people that couldn't read the class description or notice the blatantly obvious shift of con -> healer does not constitute "everybody"

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Yeah, the one that showed a conjurer in a black mage hat surrounded by all 6 elements. Totally screamed healer.

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Oh, you mean because you unintelligently linked a hat to be class defining over the actual class description that were out on the SE site pre game launch that said

"In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction. At the heart of this school of magic lies the ability to call forth and command the latent aether within oneself through deep introspection."

As to mean they were gonna be a healer.......trust me, not everyone made that illogical assumption. Just you.

Aenarion is right. The class descriptions released well before the game were the original base for lore of the game and gave no basis to make incorect and false assumptions that THM would be WHM.

I'm surprised at the sheer number of people who seem to think the elemental wheel, with this information has been destroyed/tossed out the window and there is absolutely no way for anyone in the game to use water damage whatsoever, and in some cases, forever.

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Originally Posted by Darkvalkyr

I'm surprised at the sheer number of people who seem to think the elemental wheel, with this information has been destroyed/tossed out the window and there is absolutely no way for anyone in the game to use water damage whatsoever, and in some cases, forever.

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Uh...but at least as of 1.20 and 1.21, there will be no way to deal water damage at all, unless there's either a trait or they bring back elemental damage on weapons. That's 3+ months playing with a "broken" elemental wheel.