Petition to keep non-instanced dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Dude, none of us said take out instanced dungeons, if you would have read the OP or other posts you would have seen. This thread is to keep normal dungeons along side the instanced ones.

Also, as I said it 1000xs now, go play Vindicuts if you like fair environments, that are full of instances.

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Or you could just accept the fact that Yoshida made up his mind on having content mostly instanced instead of telling people to go play another game. Just saying.

I have nothing against open world content, but this whole "Go play another game if you don't like my idea" mindset is just nuts.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Yosh-p has stated that he wants to make all dungeons instanced. That doesn't settle well with me. Considering I love the rank 20(15) open dungeon, I've stated my reasons in another thread a while back. He said that the open world content will be the strongholds(there's a few more, I know). I'm making this thread to keep and to make more open world dungeons. Please sign and like this thread if you want to see this happen. Please do not post saying "INSTANCED IS BEST" this is a thread for the people who want to keep and see more open world dungeons. Thank you.

PS: I'm not saying to take out instanced dungeons, but to keep non instanced ones and keep making more, along side the instanced ones.


Other thought for you instance lovers:
-Make the dungeon open to everyone
-Have to run through a tough area
-area is level capped
-Instanced NM(like Ifrit) still level capped!

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Instanced dungeons are great and I hope we still get to keep them. However, I don't like the idea of a level cap at all. That idea alone sort of contradicts the experience of an open dungeon anyways.

Sposhae is awesome, its open, unique, and offers NQ/Rare Equipment, NMs, and coffer hunting. I'd like to see a wide variety of these spread out for different levels.

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Originally Posted by Bearforce

this is what i feel best when describing . iam all for instanced dungeons because many above reasons : instanced dungeons creates a fair environment

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Yet another person who just thinks of dungeons as an NM camp...

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Or you could just accept the fact that Yoshida made up his mind on having content mostly instanced instead of telling people to go play another game. Just saying.

I have nothing against open world content, but this whole "Go play another game if you don't like my idea" mindset is just nuts.

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This argument is invalid. Because by making the game 99% instanced tells another group of players with another set of interests to "just go play another game."

I don't mind both. I think that was the entire point of the god damn thread.

How much of both do you really expect there to be? One of the big points of emphasis with the 2.0 announcement was that there would be major emphasis of instanced content and that players would be able to access to those instances with the use of a cross server player search function. With those two major gameplay functions in mind I think you all need to come to terms with the fact that the majority of the game's content will be seen through instances and not open world. That doesn't mean that there will not be any open world content to be had. It just means that the large majority of content for players to experience will come in the form of instances.

I think to demand some kind of response on this is, as per the norm for these forums, premature. They're obviously still in the planning stages but you should at least be heartened by the fact they specifically mentioned Odin being a roaming HNM. It's obvious there will be some open world content (I'd bet good money that a large amount of it will focus on the story.) but I just don't think it's going to be anywhere near what you guys expect and for good reason.

Instances allow for far greater dispersal of game content. As has been mentioned earlier nobody wants to be camping HNMs for hours on end to come up with nothing. People want to feel like the time they spend playing is allowing them to progress towards a given goal. Getting a group of people together with the sole purpose of trying to attain a Sipahi Turban and then showing up to find its already being camped is not the ideal situation for most players. The use of instances will avoid that entirely.

The idea that exploration is greater in open world vs. an instance doesn't make much sense to me. Once I've been in shopshae a few times how is it any different then me running darkhold a few times. In both cases once I've figured out where to go and what to do the mystical feeling of exploration is gone.

Rok may have been a little overzealous in that last post, but his heart is in the right place.

There is a Niche audience that loves games that are 100% instanced. But that is far from the Majority. If that's the game you want then please feel free to find one, but we love this game. We will not roll over and simply allow something this detrimental happen.

The Loss of Open World dungeons is the Loss of freedom to explore. To enjoy this world at your own pace. No matter how easy they make it to get into an Instance it will never replace the experience of happening across a new zone, wandering inside and feeling that slow pull as you repeatedly wonder whats around the next corner. How far can you go in? What's at the other end? Why is this place here?

The simple fact is the more instances they add and the easier they make it to get in, the faster and farther we move away from a world of exploration. Every Non-Instanced Dungeon they convert on the way to 2.0 is just one step closer we get to an Ul'Dah where everyone is AFK queuing for their next raid..

(For the Record, "Public Instances" are basically the same thing. I do not mean to Imply that these Dungeons have to be seamless with the Zone they are inside of. As long as anyone can enter without level and group size requirements and time limits. I would, however, prefer they were zones.)

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Originally Posted by Radav

The idea that exploration is greater in open world vs. an instance doesn't make much sense to me. Once I've been in shopshae a few times how is it any different then me running darkhold a few times. In both cases once I've figured out where to go and what to do the mystical feeling of exploration is gone.

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The problem is, Radav, that Instances like Darhold never have that. 5 Shopshae are worth 30 Darkholds.

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Originally Posted by Radav

The idea that exploration is greater in open world vs. an instance doesn't make much sense to me. Once I've been in shopshae a few times how is it any different then me running darkhold a few times. In both cases once I've figured out where to go and what to do the mystical feeling of exploration is gone.

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It's not about finding out what to do, It's about exploring every inch of the cave, even if it has no point. That's why people are getting all of the aetherial gates, It serves no purpose for getting equipment or anything, it's just fun to get there and avoid the aggro mobs along the way. I thought many people were into this, but i guess the majority just thinks about stats and equips and shuns those who don't. I'd even be willing to just keep the open dungeons we have now, even if we didn't get anymore, and if the devs can't even give me that, I have to say they are incredibly lazy and I don't think I'll be playing anymore, not that anyone cares.

Well said Masamune! I loved going and getting the aetherial gates at lower levels. It was a fun time, trying to avoid everything and seeing new things. Love exploring! Don't take it away!~

I don't think any of you have ever played Everquest/EQOA (especially not that fool Jinko). People used to schedule server raids on a weekly basis.
The feeling you get when hundreds of players are running across the beach, killing everything in their path, trying to reach Vox. Community was very big in those days. People were always willing to interact with each other because it was something new in the gaming industry.

MMO's are doing exactly what Guild Wars has been doing. People will venture outside city walls just to solo and delude themselves in to thinking they are having fun.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Rok may have been a little overzealous in that last post, but his heart is in the right place.

There is a Niche audience that loves games that are 100% instanced. But that is far from the Majority. If that's the game you want then please feel free to find one, but we love this game. We will not roll over and simply allow something this detrimental happen.

The Loss of Open World dungeons is the Loss of freedom to explore. To enjoy this world at your own pace. No matter how easy they make it to get into an Instance it will never replace the experience of happening across a new zone, wandering inside and feeling that slow pull as you repeatedly wonder whats around the next corner. How far can you go in? What's at the other end? Why is this place here?

The simple fact is the more instances they add and the easier they make it to get in, the faster and farther we move away from a world of exploration. Every Non-Instanced Dungeon they convert on the way to 2.0 is just one step closer we get to an Ul'Dah where everyone is AFK queuing for their next raid..

(For the Record, "Public Instances" are basically the same thing. I do not mean to Imply that these Dungeons have to be seamless with the Zone they are inside of. As long as anyone can enter without level and group size requirements and time limits. I would, however, prefer they were zones.)

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I have yet to see any anti-instance supporter explain to me how "standing in town afk queuing" is any different than "standing in town afk while your party leader shouts."

If you have such a problem with queuing in a party finder, then don't use it. XI had an auto-group feature but that did no harm because players chose not to use it.

No one is stopping you from creating a linkshell of like-minded players with which to go and explore the world.

But how long will "exploration" retain players? It's not like there won't be fun and interesting things to ride out and see. The whole point of the map redesign is to make each zone look unique and give them landmarks. But how much is enough to make people happy? Exploration is great fun, but once you've seen something the first time there's little reason to go back without some reward involved.

After all, MMOs are all about working with others to achieve some goal. I know my linkshell and I will explore the crap out of those inctanses while achieving whatever goal Os attainable from them.

This whole argument just seems silly. Especially when people say "you instanced people need to gtfo" when Yoshida himself said this was the concept for 2.0. Because they'd rather have the ability to find a teammate from anywhere than just your own world.

If the biggest issue is not being able to find a player, for better or for worse, then put energy into raising awareness for the need for cross-world invites and party finder black lists. It's that simple.

The only thing non-instanced dungeons add is that it's first come, first server. So you can explore all around as you watch some other party doing the content you set out to do. I'd rather SE be able to design unique and challenging content that tests the limits of my eight-person team than the open world flagfest that was XI.

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But how long will "exploration" retain players? It's not like there won't be fun and interesting things to ride out and see. The whole point of the map redesign is to make each zone look unique and give them landmarks. But how much is enough to make people happy? Exploration is great fun, but once you've seen something the first time there's little reason to go back without some reward involved.

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This is why you implement a system where you force people to venture to these areas. It is that simple. If exploration is such a short-lived experience, why not just remove all areas completely? Make one big city and players will simply queue up for the dungeon they need to visit. This is what you're defending, am I wrong?
You are defending instanced-dungeons by pointing out negative features found in FFXI. Finding groups is up to the community. The medium they utilize is up to the developers.

We are not being anti-instance, we just want more open world content with the instances

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

This is why you implement a system where you force people to venture to these areas. It is that simple. If exploration is such a short-lived experience, why not just remove all areas completely? Make one big city and players will simply queue up for the dungeon they need to visit. This is what you're defending, am I wrong?
You are defending instanced-dungeons by pointing out negative features found in FFXI. Finding groups is up to the community. The medium they utilize is up to the developers.

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If there's one thing I despise more when discussing video games other than the phrase "But in the real world...", it's slippery slope arguments.

"If exploration is such a short-lived experience, why not just remove all areas completely? Make one big city and players will simply queue up for the dungeon they need to visit."

This can go on and on and on. Why not just remove the city and have people log on in a dungeon? Why not just get rid of the dungeon and have people log in to a boss battle? Why not skip the boss battle and have the people pay for a picture of a character they design holding the loot?

SE has said dungeons will be instanced, not the entire world. There still will be things like strongholds and roaming NMs.

The whole point of instancing dungeons is to have a controlled environment for more challenging game design. XI's biggest problem was that every single end game event was just a matter of throwing bodies at a problem.

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The medium they utilize is up to the developers.

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This is exactly the whole point. Instances give SE more control, and thus, the ability to make things more challenging. That way, dungeons can still be just as expansive, and they can make the whole experience much more specific and unique because there won't be anyone to step on your toes.

I'm not arguing to instance the game or to detract from the open world. Just a happy balance.

i posted here a suggestion for a non-instanced dungeon ^^!

Yep, I liked your post, when it first came out ^.^

Signed. Non-instanced dungeons like Pso'Xja or Promyvions in FFXI were great. We already have instanced raids, which are dungeon-like to begin with.

People need to stop looking at long indoor combat areas like their ONLY purpose is "Blow through mobs, kill boss, get treasure chest loot".

I like both, instanced for when the devs want to challenge a party and open world for most everything else. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to have lots of both types of content.

There should be rare spawn open world NM's for those who want to do that. I'm even ok with a system (pop-items or timers or such) making it so people have to take turns for claim on some of them. However there should be the whole range of opportunities from the cutthroat competitive stuff to 4 buddies enter an instance and have the place to themselves.

If the game is too heavily instanced then it will no longer be a proper MMO in my mind.

I like both, but after years and years in EQOA I grew to really enjoy the open world raids that I felt were done well. I am not against instances by any means. Either way I like and want raids that can require multiple groups. I love 20-40 man raids. I thought tht darkhold was a decent dungeon for an instance myself. Some may disagree. I like the free roaming NMs (need more big tough ones). I am so/so with the strongholds, just my opinion. All in all I think a mix of all of the above is great, but old school MMO guy in me likes open world and lots of it.

Someone brought it up again, so it looks like the discussion is back on.

Ya, I'm still waiting on a dev post on this big issue we are having. It really seems like, Y-P just played it off like, "Ya, no biggy, you guys have STRONGHOLDS, sooo it's all good dawg". I just hope someone brings this concern to yoshi, and we will get a response sooner or later (sooner is better). I also hope that getting it to 200 likes will bring it some attention to the devs.

(why not have both)

Seriously, stop being so divided on the subject. Yoshida has shown that he is alright with both instanced and uninstanced. Shposhae? Natalan? Zaha'rak? Those are considered dungeons. Yet we still have stuff like Dzemael and Toto-rak. Relax, there will be content for both.

This is what this thread is about >.>; having both.

I just want to say this to the people who are complaining about boss/NM stealing in this game:

More than 90% of the current NMs have a 3-5min respawn and all have decent drop rates...seriously, they repop so quickly its an absurd argument.

Yes, that is a very good point.

I'm bumping this because I think it's a big deal.

Also adding more instances strengthens the cause of adding a content finder.

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Originally Posted by Lavani

No, they need more instanced dungeons. This will help with camping/stealing bosses or training. Also it will allow more people to enjoy the game because people with lesser computers will be able to partake in content, instead of lagging in world instances because of the large concentration of parties in the area.

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Well, we cant miss good stuff just because some people dont have middle end computers, in fact well if you want to be fair they should make the game with WoW graphics so even a pentium 1 guy can play the game.....

FF11 had open dungeons, if they want to be fair they could do the game with zonings, i dont care and as some say it doesnt affect my immersion by zoning, so that would be a good way to keep the resorce usage as low as possible.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Competition? I LOVED CAMPING in ffxi, you kidding me? The thrill of the hunt, am i going to get the nm before this guy? gosh, I loved camping nms in ffxi! also nms were kinda special in ffxi, unlike this game. I might be like HGUDSFHDSLKGJDSHFJLKJFHS every time I get out claimed but really? Whatever gets my blood pumping is good. It creates excitement, that's why I love demon/dark souls. Someone breaking into your game, you get pissed off that you died by him or a mob. Gosh, ya its annoying, but really!? Thats why you love it! Because it does get your blood pumping

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As much fun as that was, people aren't looking for that type of grind anymore.

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Originally Posted by Point_Zero

As much fun as that was, people aren't looking for that type of grind anymore.

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Ya, because ifrit grind is SOOOO much better....

I think instanced content should be balanced with open world content.

A purely instanced game, will not be played by myself.

Glad this is moving back in to the forefront. This topic is in serious need of some Dev response by now. 2.0 is about half a year a way and this is going to be a huge determiner of whether or not large number the current population continues to play. I love this game, but I can play an MMO where there are no Open-World Dungeon Style areas.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Ya, because ifrit grind is SOOOO much better....

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Hey if you were a elemental deity, you would understand the outright CELESTIAL importance of stuffing rocks in elaborate chests!

Why Garuda stuffs cabbages, fresh from Skyrim!

Liked and Supported OP

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Glad this is moving back in to the forefront. This topic is in serious need of some Dev response by now. 2.0 is about half a year a way and this is going to be a huge determiner of whether or not large number the current population continues to play. I love this game, but I can play an MMO where there are no Open-World Dungeon Style areas.

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I think you're severely over estamating how many people care. It's mostly just a minority here on the forums because the rest of us are too busy playing the game.

There are too many positives for instanced content.

But I'll agree that the instances should be reserved for endgame. There should be some open-world dungeons for questing and things of that nature.

But endgame should be fully instanced. I know current endgame isn't the best example of dynamic instanced content, but that's why we're getting a full restructuring of the game engine and servers.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I'm bumping this because I think it's a big deal.

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Only to you !! /sarcasm

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Also adding more instances strengthens the cause of adding a content finder.

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And yes it does :D

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

But endgame should be fully instanced.

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Hey man I love Rail shooters as much as the next guy, but I don't want my MMO on rails.

I would like both although I think the dungeons and stuff right now are good. I'd personally like to see party member limits removed though if a group of 6 want to do a 8 person dungeon they should be able to obviously at a more difficult risk.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

I think you're severely over estamating how many people care. It's mostly just a minority here on the forums because the rest of us are too busy playing the game.

There are too many positives for instanced content.

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I think you are severely over-estimating how many people don't want open world dungeons.

I actually survey people in game fairly often and it is literally 1 out of 20 that think there should only be instanced dungeons.

People who play MMO like exploration and adventure. MMOs are longer term commitments. Even if you only play 4 hours a week you still expect to play for five years. You need a world for this.

But of course, everyone assumes this thread is about getting rid of Instances.

WE want both!

Kiote, I'm pretty sure we won't get a dev to respond on this, yoshi might be set in his ways.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Kiote, I'm pretty sure we won't get a dev to respond on this, yoshi might be set in his ways.

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Suborn Ignorance is not an Excuse.