Players Who Don't pull their weight.

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Originally Posted by VeroNork

Cause 1000 limit is a pain.

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I wasn't expecting the WAR to facplant honestly, took me a few sec to even realize he was dead. Once I noticed I switched oaths while provoking and ur DPS lead was quite a bit higher than everyone else I think it took a full halone combo just to get it off you cause i provoked to early. was rewatching the video. Normally if u Mting u know u have to pop a major CD at that part or the auto attack kills you you immediately. Kind of a cheap trick by SE in my opinion. The Tank as annoying me anyways kept runnign around all crazy like XD

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Originally Posted by Pells

Giving 100% is using all of your skills to their maximum effect. Putting balance on a healer instead of one of the dps is only 80-85% at best.

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Not when you get very bad DF dps who are pulling lower dps than the AST.

Also it was a joke, i thought that may have been a bit obvious........

Good god almighty, is this still going?

Please see post no. 2. Get over it, you won't change it.

If you can't pull your weight and give 100%, don't queue for anything. Group's time>yours

For now just keep kicking them and if the majority of the party is not doing anything then just leave.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

Sadly you forget this is a game for a lot of people not a way of life.

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There is a difference between a single player game and a multi player game. The difference is: in a multiplayer game you play together with others. Similar to games you play in teams in real life, the others in your team do expect that everybody is trying to do its best and to get better.´

In real life games, leeching is no option, when you want to play that game and not to sit outside and watch how the others do play.

SE let's just junk the commend system, and make a 1-5* rating system. When you finish a dungeon players rate your progress witch is then averaged by role. Then when starting any content b4 play begins you see everybody's rating and can choose to stay or go without penalty. Q's might take a little longer but, hey at least then we know what we're signing up for.

SE let's just junk the commend system, and make a 1-5* rating system. When you finish a dungeon players rate your progress witch is then averaged by role. Then when starting any content b4 play begins you see everybody's rating and can choose to stay or go without penalty. Q's might take a little longer but, hey at least then we know what we're signing up for.

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Originally Posted by Rytank

SE let's just junk the commend system, and make a 1-5* rating system. When you finish a dungeon players rate your progress witch is then averaged by role. Then when starting any content b4 play begins you see everybody's rating and can choose to stay or go without penalty. Q's might take a little longer but, hey at least then we know what we're signing up for.

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The problem with systems like that is they create stigma that can cause someone difficulty to remove. There are a lot of elitists in this game who will abuse the system and give a 1 to anyone who doesn't play to their standards. Others would see a lower score and it will give the illusion that they're not capable when they're more than capable but may not necessarily be the creme-of-the-crop.

I'd certainly give a 1 to a healer that doesn't dps, and brags about it in his forum sig.

Oh you.... ;)

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Originally Posted by Rytank

SE let's just junk the commend system, and make a 1-5* rating system. When you finish a dungeon players rate your progress witch is then averaged by role. Then when starting any content b4 play begins you see everybody's rating and can choose to stay or go without penalty. Q's might take a little longer but, hey at least then we know what we're signing up for.

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That's directly promoting a potential toxic community though. xD

Yeah I understand that it would cause some segregation, but that's no different then our current vote system now. I am by no means creme of the crop i'd probably be considered a 2 or 3* on this scale by most, but I thought at least then their would be a mutual understanding of the skilllevel your working with. As a way to reduce wasting each other's played for time.

The toxicity from people is unavoidable, we all have perceptions n opinions, that's just people being people. Some good some bad, but if we could reduce the amount of instances going sour, maybe we would have less duck faces n more smiling faces.is all I'm trying to say, hate that it's this way but we can't all be great at everything.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

There is a difference between a single player game and a multi player game. The difference is: in a multiplayer game you play together with others. Similar to games you play in teams in real life, the others in your team do expect that everybody is trying to do its best and to get better.´

In real life games, leeching is no option, when you want to play that game and not to sit outside and watch how the others do play.

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I recall people being forced to do stuff in gym who had no interest at all in being there effecting people that like gym but needed to be there to pass the grade.
In turn.
There are people in dungeons who have no interest in doing them but want the get the gear because they like doing other things.



I personally don't mind this set of experts but in the past I HATED THEM. For the most part wouldn't play well because I didn't care for them or I did them so many time and they where boring to me so I only queue up if I wasn't close to cap on the weekend.
For the most part I try, but after doing the same places for 3-4 weeks. Netflix and gaming go hand and hand. Dual monitor for the win.

I have seen people complain about undergeared people in dungeons that have a gear level requirement. This seems like much the same thing to me. Players making up their own rules about what is the minimum gear or skill requirement, when this is supposed to be casual content. Not just casual, but content for everyone who plays this game, even if they only play through the story and spend the rest of their time using it as a social arena or playing house like in the Sims.

A healer that finds the time to dps is performing much better than what SE requires. A tank that can pull multiple packs is playing much better than required. We, the playerbase, considers these things normal, even expected, but that is because most of us are both overgeared and have a lot of experience with the classes we play. That means that the people on the higher end of the scale often carries those at the lower end, simply because the gap is so huge.

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Originally Posted by Rytank

SE let's just junk the commend system, and make a 1-5* rating system. When you finish a dungeon players rate your progress witch is then averaged by role. Then when starting any content b4 play begins you see everybody's rating and can choose to stay or go without penalty. Q's might take a little longer but, hey at least then we know what we're signing up for.

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But....I'm trying to hit 2k Commendations.....I don't like this idea at all.

I can state, for a fact, that there are players out there that REALLY struggle with the basics. Like, if they were playing an FPS on a controller, they'd be the equivalent of a lead-foot driver with the analog stick (a lead-thumb?). If the objective is to look at something, which only asks for a slight tilt of the stick, it'll take several tries due to overshooting the turn. Can't even walk towards a door without bumping into walls. A friend of mines is exactly like that whenever he plays games. It's frustrating just to watch, since it's a simple example of motor skills rather than anything of problem solving, but that's just how it is for some people. He might be the extreme on that end, but that just shows there's a significant gap between that skill level and the best player in the world. Everyone on this game falls somewhere in between (if not worse than my friend).

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Oh you.... ;)

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You think I'm joking but I've made a note of your name. Made a mnemonic even. "Mattelot not dps a lot" so it's easy to remember.

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Originally Posted by Rytank

SE let's just junk the commend system, and make a 1-5* rating system. When you finish a dungeon players rate your progress witch is then averaged by role. Then when starting any content b4 play begins you see everybody's rating and can choose to stay or go without penalty. Q's might take a little longer but, hey at least then we know what we're signing up for.

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Yes, because giving people the ability to rate your play-style isn't subjective at all. Then we can pretend that everyone agrees on a single style of play for every class and that everyone adheres to that standard and can accurately rate your play-style. That won't make anyone angry.

And then once we take everyone's subjective score into account based off of people who may or may not know what they're doing/rating. We can then opt-out and leave based on incredibly intelligent reviews made by our forefathers. You know what? They were right. The world really is flat They had it right all along.
Oh wait, no one called or is calling Homer an idiot giving him a 1 out of 5 stars on Poet-Yelp because he described Earth as a flat disc.

I get it. In a perfect world this wouldn't be a horrible system man.

But...

Let's just pretend for a second that the score is an idealistic model for judgement. That the past performance of that player is a 2 or 3 out of 5. But they have reformed. Are trying to get into groups now because they've listened. They've improved, They've done the research. We've condemned them to an online hell perpetually being tossed aside because of past failures. They don't deserve that. Those people who are potential DO NOT DESERVE THAT. You're trying to improve the experience. To improve the game. I get that, everyone here is. And I totally respect that. But no one here has the damn right to discredit anyone in this game based on their past failures. Somehow most of you are too pissed off and self absorbed in punishing people further than Square-Enix has already allowed us to do. Which, you're right, Vote kicking isn't necessarily a punishment. But It's a means to an end to that you can continue on with your content if everyone Agrees that that person isn't savory.
There is too much room for people to Skew rating systems or Abuse punishment systems leaving people more pissed off than ever.

Giving rewards, and continuing to make more and more rewards for the people who are good will entice people to improve. So I'm pushing the idea of more frequent and better Commendations rewards. I'm not going to sit here, lie, and say commendations are perfect. But they're pretty damn good. It's an anonymous thumbs up from someone who took notice of how well you were doing. Commendations can be based off a lot of things. Not just how good you are. And that Isn't a bad thing. Anything from the beginning of that instance to the end counts. And there isn't anything wrong with that. You might be the best tank in the world but if you're an ass you can suck my dick. I would rather wipe all day helping a new tank. You know what else tempts people to improve? People who like to Beat stuff; which regardless of how stupid you are, or how you want to play, we all want. You might be playing the video game to have fun. But people who play video games like to beat stuff. We kill dragons. Get cool swords and shoot magic from our nipples because it's sexy as fuck. I don't care how you rationalize how bad a player is, unless they're trolling, They WANT to beat stuff.

Again, people who refuse to learn or get better remove themselves from the game in due time.

You want to fix shit? Encourage good play with systems. Don't discourage bad play with systems. Especially those left in the hands of us. People are complaining about how abused or one sided Commendations can be and you want something MORE punishing? Are you just trolling or really just want to be an egotistical thug that badly? If the rewards are good enough, People will naturally move towards playing better.


TLDR; People are not defined by their past. And extensively harsh punishment like this shouldn't even come up. Are most people here so god damn cynical that they can't see that?
These types of ideas make me sick to my stomach. You can't enable people with the ability to be pieces of shit anonymously with enforced systems like these.

A system like that will never happen, because SE isn't full of idiots.

If you want an MMO that caters to "elite" players, there's Wildstar. At least, I think there's Wildstar. For all I know it's been shut down by now. Early on it set out to be an MMO for elitist grognards and that was as spectacular a failure as you could possibly imagine. It's since gone free-to-play and remains a fraction-of-a-digit percentile of earnings NCSoft takes in quarterly.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You think I'm joking but I've made a note of your name. Made a mnemonic even. "Mattelot not dps a lot" so it's easy to remember.

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Try not to hurt your finger spam-clicking vote dismiss when he shows up in your next Dusk Vigil.

Whoa buddy i'm sorry, I'm not trying to promote discrimination/abuse either, my bad if it came off that way. I just think that the good (caring) players would outnumber the abusers n the rating would just show your attitude more, like if I was rating people at the exit of an instance, not clear..exit. I would base it off their effort or attitude more than skill. I personally don't care how fast I complete stuff, I just enjoy a positive group, thats courteous n I would rate based on that, n I believe a lot of us would do the same. Why.. because I only run into 1 jerk every once in awhile, as opposed to the many helpful friendly players. N as far as people changing thier past, then thier rating would go up over time. Either way was just snowballing an idea, im no genius or game designer, so i don't know whats best, but i always believe it could be better then it is.

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Originally Posted by Rytank

... Either way was just snowballing an idea, im no genius or game designer, so i don't know whats best, but i always believe it could be better then it is.

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So the trouble here is that, sadly, players online, in a state of anonymity, can be spiteful jerks. An ability to "rate" players, even if over a vast period of time trended towards pointing out the truly positive ones, would be abused. Worse, it would put players themselves into a position where they were actively jockeying for review metrics rather than doing what they most likely came here to do, which is have fun.

Have you ever worked in customer service? Lots of times, an employee's standing would be affected by the "rating" that customers would give them at the closing of a case. I can think of nothing more intensely frustrating than finding oneself at the whims of a similar system when trying to enjoy playing a video game.

The commendation system, as-is, is about as hands on as a system for players to rate one another should ever get. It's a voluntary point that gets seen only by the receiving player and can only be rewarding if accumulated.

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Originally Posted by Rytank

Whoa ... Ect

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I don't mean to come off scathing. So I apologize If it came off like that, it's never my intention. I'm just really really against systems that have the potential for abuse. So I like the idea of changing peoples mentalities towards playing a bit better cuz you get like.. a mount, minion or costume out of it. Incentivize it with cool stuff, everyone wins. You know... Stuff you can't get elsewhere that FF fans would love; Like... maybe you get something cool... an Item to activate a Special Fate in the desert to fight Giant Cactuar for a cactuar costume. That would be sick.

I'm fundamentally an optimist like you. But sometimes a red flag goes up for potential abuse is all. I know for a fact I'd get rated down in some groups for DPSing as Sch. And other such choices I make on other classes that I know I can do. It's all subjective. Maybe a healer wants to go slow, But as Tank, I gotta go fast! and they don't like it... Which Isn't necessarily their right to write up my report card based off 30 mins of game-play. I get someone could recover their Rated score over time. But if people refuse to play with them because they've been 1 Star'd then that's alienation for no reason. And imo an un-necessarily long punishment/journey to recover from for a video game.

I was the worst tank at one time. This game is very different from tanking in ffxi. I still remember my first Amdapor keep... I fear the yelp reviews on that performance... Pretty sure Id have been banished from the server.. haha.
On Sch I also didn't dps in the beginning. I was just bad. I wasn't ready. Not experienced enough. That doesn't make me a bad person or unfit to play this game. We're all learning, and when our interactions with other people due to how Duty Finder is setup, is so short; I don't believe people deserve the right to do more than kick that person from the group for being truly unproductive. there's just too many factors and I want to give those people a benefit of a doubt. And in the end, I don't want to feel like I made some random dude i'll never meet across the country mad or upset.. regardless of my rationalization for it. It's a human being, not just Data. It's not good for my mind-set or theirs.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe people should carry people, not only because it's stressful for the rest of the group. But because I want the person slacking to get the full experience and have fun pressing buttons with me.
The game is setup to prevent these types of people form getting into the content that it's worth complaining about this stuff for for the most part. I honestly believe vote kicking is good enough if it really has to come to that.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

So the trouble here is that... (snip)

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Pretty much nailed it.

I mean, look at youtube comments. What video? Pick one.... =(

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Originally Posted by Mahri

So the trouble here is that...

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So the good news is, awesomely, that the system could be automatic. The game could rate the players and match them up with other players who perform at the same level. The rating could stay hidden. Completely abuse free and quite lovely.

That could work for the Raid/Duty Finder.

Tho our main concern should be with the Party Finder. In that case player feedback could be useful. I don't believe the players should enjoy their sweet anonymity without accountability. For past weeks I have been doing Nidhogg Ex runs a lot, mostly joining clear/training groups instead of farms to help, and there are way too many players who are not following the PF comments which is damaging to the PF community. Stars would not be good enough alone in my opinion to fix it.

On the other hand the lodestone could be a great place to post player reviews. The teachers at universities are being rated by students, I don't see any reason why couldn't the players be rated by players as well. To make it fair allow even the reviews to be rated by others. With the size of the player base the players should have a chance to know with whom they are playing before they get a chance to ruin their party. Of course this could create a little bit of toxicity but overall the PF would be more healthy and effective than it is.

Perhaps if the content wasnt faceroll easy people couldn't be lazy. Take Ozma as an example, and I don't mean make all content savage difficulty.

I can tell you a horror story. Had a tank on my expert the other day that didn't like me not being in 220+ gear in every slot. (218 nin, 225 drk, casual player, felt like dpsing for a change) they started accusing me of 'refusing to gear up' (apparently running my roulettes for lores is 'refusing to gear up') and 'wanting to be carried'. Then saying how they would run out of cd's and die because my dps would be to 'low'. They than sat at the start and refused to move, demanding we 'get the ___ out' and threatened to kick us if we didn't.. willing to wait the 15 timer to do so.

Tank's need to get off their high horse. People may be casual players, people may have just hit 60 and are working on gearing. Or lving/gearing a new class, or running something for the first time. Or returning after a long time away and need to get back into the swing of things. Or maybe they just want to take it easy that run. Not everyone has to be 100% dead on in what there doing.

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Originally Posted by Taiine

I can tell you a horror story. Had a tank on my expert the other day that didn't like me not being in 220+ gear in every slot. (218 nin, 225 drk, casual player, felt like dpsing for a change) they started accusing me of 'refusing to gear up' (apparently running my roulettes for lores is 'refusing to gear up') and 'wanting to be carried'. Then saying how they would run out of cd's and die because my dps would be to 'low'. They than sat at the start and refused to move, demanding we 'get the ___ out' and threatened to kick us if we didn't.. willing to wait the 15 timer to do so.

Tank's need to get off their high horse. People may be casual players, people may have just hit 60 and are working on gearing. Or lving/gearing a new class, or running something for the first time. Or returning after a long time away and need to get back into the swing of things. Or maybe they just want to take it easy that run. Not everyone has to be 100% dead on in what there doing.

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Expert roulette is serious difficulty content, didn't you know?

Submit a harassment report next time. That's ridiculous.

Yeah that's ridiculous. And if you were aoe'ing properly with Death Blossom on 4+ mob pulls even despite your ilvl you'd be better than most nins I see in df even around the i235 ish range.

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Originally Posted by Taiine

..

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Yeah, that's really stupid. That's a whole another thing, but let's be honest. It doesn't happen often, or does it to you? I don't know, to me it rarely happens in fact that never happened to me before. Sucks to hear it happened to you however.

Yeah wow that sucks I feel ya I took a two month break and am still working on my first lore set, yes I'm very casual. That's the kind of attitude that makes me sick. N I like the idea of *matching rating by SE that would take the toxicity out of it, not sure how they could do it but.. sounds like an upgrade to me. N I main pld so as a tank I'm sorry, n that's why we get a bad rep. We're not all meat heads I promise:)

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Originally Posted by Sipherous

OP

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If you can learn new stuff going forward with minimal to no need for communication, I recommend trying a JP Data Center, the Japanese always try their best from what I've seen. I recommend the Elemental Data Center where you're least likely to run into the problems you're having but not saying you won't run into them, there's a fairly large community of certain type of individuals on at least 1 server on said Data Center that will most likely grief and ruin your day. You can always try Gaia too, I WOULD recommend Mana but honestly. . .I don't want the unfortunate 1/1000000000th chance of running into you in DF. . . I'm waaay too casual, you might intimidate me with the awesome pro-ness oozing off your character. . . ><

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Originally Posted by Taiine

I can tell you a horror story. Had a tank on my expert the other day that didn't like me not being in 220+ gear in every slot. (218 nin, 225 drk, casual player, felt like dpsing for a change) they started accusing me of 'refusing to gear up' (apparently running my roulettes for lores is 'refusing to gear up') and 'wanting to be carried'. Then saying how they would run out of cd's and die because my dps would be to 'low'. They than sat at the start and refused to move, demanding we 'get the ___ out' and threatened to kick us if we didn't.. willing to wait the 15 timer to do so.

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That's ridiculous and reportable at the same time. EX difficulty drops i215 gear, even being at 210 is considered overgeared for this instance since the minimum is 200.

In all situations, people need to be more sensible on what's to be expected out of people. I don't get how people can jump to the conclusion of being on the extreme of one side instead of making a reasonable judgement call in the middleground of putting/understanding the basic fundamentals of the game at level cap, and expecting savage-tier play otherwise.

I know your pain. I main a drk. I sometimes encounter healers who dont heal until the group is at the brink of death or dps or attack separate enemies from the main group

I always say to myself, if I ever tanked or healed the way other people run specific dungeons, we would never make it out of the first room. With that said, when I run lets say expert on my dps and see that after 2 or 3 pulls, I pretty much dps alone cus the other one can't be asked to put 5% effort in the run, I'll slow down as well. We will be in there for 6 hours anyways. No point in even trying.

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Originally Posted by Sipherous

I hate carrying people who won't preform. It seems unfair to myself and everyone else who puts the effort to maximize their play time by carrying someone who refuses to put in the effort to be penalized for it.

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This might come to a big surprise to you, but you do not carry people through Duty:Ex or any other DF content. I'd even go so far and say that my 12 year old sister could do a decent job tanking a Duty:Ex if I explained it to her (and fantasia'd into a Lalafell...).

There is only one way for you, since your approach of 'educating' people really comes across as strange in content that is really, really easy. Make your own PF group, make it iLevel 235+ for your daily content. Maybe you find people whom you are willing to make a static for... Duty:Ex. I am sure you can push the 10 minutes mark that way and are able to gloat about that.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

This might come to a big surprise to you, but you do not carry people through Duty:Ex or any other DF content.

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He doesn't and if he do wanna carry people, he should do it like me, getting paid for it. I'm far from being ashamed carrying people on content, why should I do it free? If you are horrible or super bad, you either pay it or just hope you find like minded people and probably never gonna down it.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You think I'm joking but I've made a note of your name. Made a mnemonic even. "Mattelot not dps a lot" so it's easy to remember.

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How will I ever sleep at night?

Trolls aside, I agree with the above, contrary to what the elitists will tell you, you don't carry people through DF/roulettes. Those who over-gear it love to think that's what they're doing. Elitists love finding or inventing reasons to be condescending. They forget that they were new too once.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Trolls aside, I agree with the above, contrary to what the elitists will tell you, you don't carry people through DF/roulettes. Those who over-gear it love to think that's what they're doing. Elitists love finding or inventing reasons to be condescending. They forget that they were new too once.

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Elitist/elite player is only a word(s) made up by players. When a person tell another person how to play better or improve, the second player goes in whine mode and call them elitist. When they can't beat content they cry even more and tell other people how shit they are without realizing. Not even joking, it's pretty much true. So sick and tired people saying elitist. When 99% of the players here ask for a decent gameplay we talk about some good standar not top notch, but then again the people put words in peoples mouth and say we expect 2k dps in roulettes and shit. How boring it is to discuss with people who look at the wrong direction and make up things. /yawn.

To put in in the other way, just because you got told to improve or well had someone being nice telling you how to improve, doesn't mean a person is elitist or whatever people say, they are there to help. Yes most people are aware they were once noobs, but when a player refuses to improve over months and many tell them and not only 1 person, guess who's fault that is? Not the douchebag elitist person you speak of, but the person who just sits there and want everything free.