So anyone else tired of grinding tomes weekly for gear?

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Originally Posted by Adire

Oh wait, it's another Tonberry player with a false sense of superiority.

See, I can be narrowminded too.

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You proved that earlier :3

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Originally Posted by Adire

Oh wait, it's another Tonberry player with a false sense of superiority.

See, I can be narrowminded too.

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http://img.ifcdn.com/images/6c0d42b5...b106bde2_1.jpg

I just canceled my subscription. I'm done farming this crap. I'm sick of extreme mode primals with their stupid drop to perma-death. Alexander is lame x100. I knocked out two of the new relics a few months ago but the grind over the final stage is just stupid. I think I'll keep my money and save myself the punishment.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

You proved that earlier :3

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

http://img.ifcdn.com/images/6c0d42b5...b106bde2_1.jpg

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Who knew bullying and dogpiling and insulting someone who insulted no one made you cool on the internet?

Gotta love how the person accusing someone of being "salty" is the same person who started flinging insults.

*doesn't read through discussion/argument*

Doesn't bother me. The way I see tomestone gear is that it's gear you can pick up if you can't get drops from raids or dungeons. The problem with this is the relatively small raid content available, as well as the aforementioned dungeon gear essentially being moot (even compared to the uncapped tomestone)

I would like for tomes to be uncapped, or at least roll over from previous weeks. I was exceptionally busy during one week and missed a bit of tomes and one of the gear things for the weapon, now I am going to be really behind in general gear progression and will probably have a hard time getting in some groups for at least an extra week due to missing some.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Who knew bullying and dogpiling and insulting someone who insulted no one made you cool on the internet?

Gotta love how the person accusing someone of being "salty" is the same person who started flinging insults.

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Don't act surprised when you get called out for being narrow-minded when you grace a thread with gems such as:

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Originally Posted by Adire

Lots of complaining, yet the same people complaining continue to subscribe and cap tomestones anyways.

So the amount of care necessary for this issue at the moment? 0.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Don't act surprised when you get called out for being narrow-minded when you grace a thread with gems such as:

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So generalizing an entire server's playerbase as crazy is the same thing as having the opinion that customers who don't decide with their wallet won't get much of a response from SE.

Noted. I'm always learning new stuff around here.

There's a reason despite every patch people complain about capping tomestones, yet tomestone caps remain and subscribers continue to subscribe. You may not want to hear it, but it's the truth.

But if you get off on egging on bullies, you keep on going champ.

I'm kind of curious, the people who are 100% cool with the system how it is, how long have you been playing?

I mean, the system has been the same (mostly) the last 2-2 1/2 years or so. Basically a new 8man raid (with or without extra modes) every 6 months, overset by 3 months with a 24man "for funzies" raid which also is on a 6month cooldown. So basically something new every 3 months. Some bonus primal fights get peppered inbetween. The tome cap expanded after a couple months into 2.0. At first it was like 350 tomes a week? Then later it was 450, while the gear prices have been roughly the same always (with weapons sometimes being obtainable or not by solely tomes).

Like so, the system works, why change it right? But it does get old. I wonder how many that have been playing since... what is it, august 2013? How many of those people are like "Yea, I can keep doing this another few years"... I mean, it's not like games are made to keep people's attention forever. Customers come and go. If some people go I doubt this game will fail of course.

I'm just leading to believe the people that think the people feeling tired of the system are lame (or whatnot) maybe haven't been doing it long enough to get tired of it perhaps? I could be wrong. That's why I ask. Getting tired of things is part of life. It happens with time, so I don't blame SE that I'm a bit tired of it.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm kind of curious, the people who are 100% cool with the system how it is, how long have you been playing?

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I've been playing since ARR's EA and for me personally I'm okay with the system as is. If people are feeling tired of its that's fine too, but even players who have been here the entire time can be okay with it.

Ya it's a bit boring :(

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Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm kind of curious, the people who are 100% cool with the system how it is, how long have you been playing?

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Since the launch of AAR, though I was gone when poetics tomes dropped. That was the only set of tomes I didn't keep up with. The system yes it does get old. The same thing happens to me whenever new tomes are introduced. I would cap maybe in 1-3 days then after that log in a few hours a day to see the fc and do some dailies, then log off to do other things. Can't say I hate it, its easy and gives me a reason to do log on and things to look forward to.

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Originally Posted by Adire

But if you get off on egging on bullies, you keep on going champ.

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No one likes a straw man

Time doesn't always make the heart grow fonder. I mean, the system being what it is made many of us love this game.

While I still enjoy it, even after 2 1/2 years, I feel like very few surprises lie around the corner. Maybe I've just played for too long. I probably would have white knighted this game a year ago as being the best-est ever and saying I'd never leave.

I'm sure if I ever leave, someone new will join instead and love it just like I did. It's not like if I ever leave that it would hurt the game it all. I am merely a drop in the bucket...

I don't plan to leave. I just lack the excitement I had. It's not like it's anybodies fault though. I didn't think I'd play this forever anyway.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

No one likes a straw man

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No one likes when people say straw man when there's no straw man going on either.

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Originally Posted by Adire

No one likes when people say straw man when there's no straw man going on either.

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Like the whole internet is a straw man argument.... lol I probably would try to call out straw man arguments in the past but it's kind of pointless I found out.

Even I misrepresent arguments sometimes. I was probably mad because I didn't understand their point of view in the first place. Either I comprehended it poorly or they explained it badly but either way, it never mattered who was wrong. It's not like anyone getting a last word makes someone feel better. There is never a last word... until someone gets bored.

Can we stop argueing please. I wouldnt say their is alot of people tired of it but im glad im not the only one. I hope the dev team keeps us old ffxi players/people tired of the tome grind in mind for 4.0.

Maybe diadem will see something interesting.
Anything is possible really, id like to see something offered for FC coordinated raids that arent necessarily very hard till huge bosses but require strategy and a plan. Preferably a zone you cant complete in one or even a few trips. This would promote small fc alliances.
I dunno possibilities are endless, just need some creativity.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Lots of complaining, yet the same people complaining continue to subscribe and cap tomestones anyways.

So the amount of care necessary for this issue at the moment? 0.

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Hey Adire, question for ya. Where else are we able to express ourselves to SE? Truly, what's your answer? Because, last I checked, they have no polls, no questionnaires, absolutely NO WAY other than these forums to express ourselves. None. I agree with your statement though, SE and the dev team indeed care nothing about the playerbase. Why? It's quite simple, their MMO formula is the treadmill; and I'm not talking the gear treadmill; I'm talking the player treadmill. Other than a VERY few exceptions (myself included, shamefully) you'll note that typically there are very few people on these forums that have played longer than 1-1 1/2 years. This is due to the fact that most eventually get so sick of this nightmarish repetitiveness that they leave. But no worries! SE will hype up the next expansion with loads of misleading statements and images so they can draw in a fresh new batch of lemmings. So yes, you are right Adire, they do not care.

....though if you were talking about yourself not caring, then I have to ask, why'd you post? ;)

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Originally Posted by Myriads

This is useful information. Thank you.

And yes I was Myriads on Phoenix in XI. Beastmaster and Blue Mage and headed up Cactuar Express. LS

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Was also on Phoenix after the server merge, before the merge it was titan. Char. name was Arise was a 75 Whm.

Final Fantasy XI had one thing this game is sorley lacking on, a strong sense of community and friendship. The player you played with and the mission you did with them could last for hours,you got to really know the people in your party.
This is because you would play with those individuals for years, very little people had there own ajenda and was in it to help others. Not only was it fun and satisfying to accomplish goals in that game but also just getting to that destination was a fun experience in its own right.
A Realm Reborn and Final Fantasy XI cannot be compared to each other. They are 2 seprate MMO that had different focuses from each other just a matter of what appeals to you more.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

No one likes a straw man

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Well, except Dorothy, the tin man and a certain cowardly lion. But I don't think those count.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm kind of curious, the people who are 100% cool with the system how it is, how long have you been playing?

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I've been playing since the Beta came out and I still enjoy myself
I do have to say that I've been gone for a couple of months due to RL things, so I didn't really get into the whole poetics phase
Sometimes I do feel like the game gets grindy, but when I feel that way, I just go off to gather or craft a bit, maybe hang out with friends
For me it also helps that my FC does a lot of stuff. We're not totally into going for Seph ex or anything, but we do slowly try to catch up with savage content. From time to time we even do some "old" content, like coil or ex primals, just for the fun of it or to farm some gear / songs / aetherstones, or to get a clear for someone who hasn't done it yet

i've been playing since beta, didnt expect this game to fail so miserably into a repetitive loop of farming with lockouts. Im pretty much done with the game. Started playing Black desert online, doubt i'll come back to this stupid system. Only thing i am annoyed is that i always supported Square enix, i payed for 6 months right before 3.2, i shouldnt have. Been grinding same pattern and content for years, it became so stupid and as soon as you put your nose out and check other games you realize how bad was the spiral you were caught into.

On many aspects and overall Xiv 1.0 might have had a better outcome. This? This is just like an apple store game, that what have become. Sadly it has an amazing graphic, but the content and how they keep moving with this system in place is just the worse i've ever experienced. No more.

Yeah it's pretty exhausting.

I wish raids and trials gave more tomestones, so that way i wouldn't have to spam 2 dungeons every day to cap, and could do the things i like more.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Lots of complaining, yet the same people complaining continue to subscribe and cap tomestones anyways.

So the amount of care necessary for this issue at the moment? 0.

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This logic is riddled with fallacies, and implies that someone should quit over a minor grievance with the game, despite liking many other aspects.

Most people complain about things that they care about, otherwise they would unsubscribe without a word.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

Hey Adire, question for ya. Where else are we able to express ourselves to SE?

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You're able to best express yourself with your wallet, like any paying customer. Official forums are a battleground of angry people of the vocal minority venting hot air, SE (like most game companies) are aware of this, and as such only take it so seriously. The official forums also require an active subscription (unless you stay logged in apparently? I've always lost my ability to post after 14 days of not being subscribed. In any case, most people posting are recently subscribed I imagine), so most of the complainers here aren't any real reason for concern on their part.

If player numbers were to drop, then they'd have more reason to pay attention to the people raging on the forums.

I also find it interesting that you claim there are "VERY few" people who have played longer than 1-1 1/2 years posting on the forums. That's not exactly a trend I've noticed O.o. In fact every poster after your post up to mine has played longer.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Yeah it's pretty exhausting.

I wish raids and trials gave more tomestones, so that way i wouldn't have to spam 2 dungeons every day to cap, and could do the things i like more.



This logic is riddled with fallacies, and implies that someone should quit over a minor grievance with the game, despite liking many other aspects.

Most people complain about things that they care about, otherwise they would unsubscribe without a word.

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Is that so?

You wouldn't think it's a "minor grievance" judging by the sheer enthusiasm, vitriol, and threats to unsubscribe people are giving off in this topic.

I think people should learn to use the word fallacy correctly instead of throwing it around in every post.

But I do partially agree with you. It is somewhat a minor grievance. Which is why SE shouldn't care since people will continue to give them money anyways. Why change a thing when the playerbase is satisfied enough to continue giving you their money? The way tomestones are done in this game guarantee they will get recurring subscriptions so long as there is not a high degree of hatred for the system present in a large group of people.

That's my argument, and it's the argument that all businesses with profit as the foremost goal will use. So no, there are no "fallacies" here. Unless a business being business-minded is a fallacy.

I cap every week just through normal gameplay, so I don't really notice.

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Originally Posted by ToniRomo

I cap every week just through normal gameplay, so I don't really notice.

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That's the other thing. People make out like you have to spam dungeons to cap. One expert roulette per day is enough....

You can cap through actually playing the game at a casual pace. True grinding is unnecessary. There really is no problem here.

(comment directed at the people complaining in general, not you ToniRomo)

Its not about having to aquire tombstones. Its about how they are aquired. Theirs literally no creativity, its a faceroll and the gating with gear lifespan problems makes no sense. Im not really fond of savage and the craftable isnt worth the gil cost due to lifespan leaving some people choosing only tomes.

Im not sure why you seem to think se only makes decisions based on business. There is alot of stuff in this game that the playerbase asked for from their own ideas. Guess what... the lore primal gears was one of those. They could have said no. Just like they can keep rolling the same system here or if we are lucky enough, they will consider us. Is it about business, probably not. They could care less if a few people threaten to quit like you say, they could also be interested in giving it a try. Im pretty sure this is how diadem came to be to since it was pretty much an fc thing. It still needs work and added onto but it could be something great.

God yes I am!
I picked up crafting and gathering to try to break it up but the fact that all this does is eventually lead me to another grind is a little disheartening.

I think bc of the failure of ffxiv 1.0 devs are terrified of doing anything outside of the box. They're so scares to think a little they rather rinse and repeat. Can't blame them tho. None of us are unsubbing any time soon

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I'm not entirely sure of the point you're trying to make here :X While a lot of gear/items in XI did take a good chunk of time, it was still incredibly worthwhile because those items were still used for endgame. With XIV, you get spend months gearing your character, and then in about 6 months, you get to do it all again!

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My point was that it's a different model, and if you're going to highlight the upsides (gear remains viable longer) it's worth also mentioning the drawbacks (upgrades are very infrequent and acquiring them is usually vastly more time-consuming).

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

There is no real substance there, and no real character growth or improvement.

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I guess that depends on what you think the words "growth" and "improvement" mean. You're objectively, measurably stronger at i220 than you were at i180, for example.

In FFXI, on the other hand, it was a very real possibility that someone who had even moderate luck with drops could find themselves with lesser gear than someone who'd been level 75 for a considerably shorter period of time, but who'd had much better luck. In fact, if you take relics/mythics out of the equation, the difference between someone in the best possible gear and someone in average gear was considerably smaller than the jump between tiers in FFXIV.

So, given that even when you were getting the very infrequent upgrades, the actual improvement was barely noticeable, that seems like a much better example of "no real character growth or improvement."

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Stats and ilvl are artificially inflated to keep people busy.

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Just like drop rates were artificially deflated in FFXI to keep people busy.

Same goal, different methodology.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

You're correct, I was in University, and had the time to invest over the course of many years to get my avatar geared and relevant (camping HNMs while writing term papers comes to mind; hours spent waiting for 15 mins of actual gameplay xD). Nowadays, I wouldn't be able to even scratch the surface of everything I did in FFXI; hence why I love how casual this game can be.

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Yeah, I'm right there with you. There were many times while playing FFXI that I'd still be playing when the sun came up. These days I'm having to get up to get ready for work before the sun comes up.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

That's a bit of a stretch.

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I would have thought so too, had I not done the math. I'll skew in favor of lower total man-hours here.

Let's assume that you're running the zones with just a dozen people (probably low for most Dynamis shells) and getting an average of 500 currency per run (probably high for most Dynamis shells, especially with that number of people). A finished Bravura requires 17,900 total currency.

17,900 currency at 500 per run is 35.8 runs. Each run is 3.5 hours, so each person would spend 125.3 hours total in Dynamis. With 12 people, that's a total of 1503.6 man-hours. And, like I said, that's assuming a low number of people and a high amount of currency, so that's very much on the low end of the scale.

The Thief's Knife is harder to run the math, because it's much more random-based. Sozu Rogberry, according to his old ffxiclopedia page, was a lottery spawn with a 1-8 hour respawn from a placeholder with a 16-minute respawn. Even if you were lucky enough to have him show up reasonably quickly after you started camping, and either had no competition or were good at claiming him consistently, the drop rate on the knife itself was relatively low; certainly under 10%.

So even assuming he showed up at the low end of his respawn timer, an average drop rate would have most people at 10+ hours. If you factor in longer respawns, competition, etc., that number can increase very quickly.

No, not really. Because I would hardly call doing 1 expert roulette each day 'grinding'.

It's honestly quite laughable to even call it grinding. Nothing in this game even compares to the countless annoyances and time-consuming garbage that was rampant in FFXI. You don't even have to do a roulette every day-you can miss 2 days and still cap very easily. ;)

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Originally Posted by heynowjose

God yes I am!
I picked up crafting and gathering to try to break it up but the fact that all this does is eventually lead me to another grind is a little disheartening.

I think bc of the failure of ffxiv 1.0 devs are terrified of doing anything outside of the box. They're so scares to think a little they rather rinse and repeat. Can't blame them tho. None of us are unsubbing any time soon

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Nothing grindy about crafting. You can cap those tomes in 30 minutes tops.

Gathering maybe, but that's only as grindy as you want it to be.

There is literally no grinding in this game, only thing close to grind was ARR relic but even that was breeze compared to what "real" grind is supposed to be. Whatever you are grinding it should take months not days or weeks like we have here, i guess its the new generation of gamers that sees grinding in here as they missed older MMO's where the grind was real. If you want a MMO that is pure grindfest only option is korean MMO's, they still cheris old model with low% droprates and whatnot, only downside on them is that most of them has P2W elements so those will cost more than sub based MMO's on the longrun.

To give example back in TBC i farmed elemental mobs for mats 8h a day for a whole week just to craft ONE pre-raid gear piece, to get all 3 of them i had to spend another 2+ weeks for other pieces. So it almost took month to get full 3 piece set and it wasnt even BiS not even close. Then add HC dungeons where i did over 25+ runs to get another pre-raid piece while one run took 1-2h each depending how good your group was, and again it wasnt even close to BiS item.

We have it extremely easy in here, you get flooded with tomes no matter what you do ingame but still some players choose to just spam one thing over and over untill burnout, tbh its not games fault its players fault if they choose this route.

So easy to cap tomes. I do it on 3 accounts. We have craftable meldable gear now for those who prefer not to grind tomes but then again I suppose grinding the gil for them is a problem for some too.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

*doesn't read through discussion/argument*

Doesn't bother me. The way I see tomestone gear is that it's gear you can pick up if you can't get drops from raids or dungeons. The problem with this is the relatively small raid content available, as well as the aforementioned dungeon gear essentially being moot (even compared to the uncapped tomestone)

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This is my only gripe with the game atm, it would be awsome to have 2-3 diffirent raid instances for each tier. With 8-12 bosses for each tier would also allow some of them be alot more easier even in Savage so everyone could have atleast some progress and not to hit wall like A3S was and then only farm 2 bosses for 6months.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

There is literally no grinding in this game, only thing close to grind was ARR relic but even that was breeze compared to what "real" grind is supposed to be. Whatever you are grinding it should take months not days or weeks like we have here, i guess its the new generation of gamers that sees grinding in here as they missed older MMO's where the grind was real.

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"Back in my day, we had to grind with no shoes, uphill both ways, in the snow! And we liked it! Get off my lawn!"

Nope, I've been playing since Beta 1.0, and the 2.0 gearing method is vastly superior.

Sure, it could use more variety, but the method itself is sound.

I really don't want to have to spend hours hoping for something to spawn, then not get the drop.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

So lets say theres no cap...
People would grind them all out for their main class day 1, and then maybe grind for their alt classes the next week. What happens? -> Burnt out very easily.

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SE can reduce the tome rewards or make them a random drop to prevent it.

Say 20% chance to get tomes at the end of the dungeon, 80% to get dark matter 6 instead of the tomes (example: Ifrit during 1.x).

I find this grinding annoying, not impossible.

Its not that I cannot do it. its that I have done it quite a few times already, and it goes into straight chore territory after a while. like I'm catching up on something that's pointless or daunting. And before you go into the "all games are pointless" spiel. Its the extremes of gameplay that I don't care for. I don't like having to choose between rote farming I don't like, and going to bed with nothing to show but "good effort you guyz", from a PF I had hopes for.

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Originally Posted by Felis

SE can reduce the tome rewards or make them a random drop to prevent it.

Say 20% chance to get tomes at the end of the dungeon, 80% to get dark matter 6 instead of the tomes (example: Ifrit during 1.x).

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This sounds awful! Would take even longer to gear one class/job if you can't spend a lot of time playing.

Tbh, I liked the idea of quests for gear, like the level 45 class quests, or the original relic quest. Of course the class quests ones were a bit easy, but that line of picking up armor would be cool for them to slide in once in awhile.

The tome grind is a bit boring since it has been going on so long and is such a treadmill. The way it's laid out also hurts the whe "Alt friendly" thing.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

"Back in my day, we had to grind with no shoes, uphill both ways, in the snow! And we liked it! Get off my lawn!"

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Ha ha ha ha ha!!!! LOL!! This is the best post in the entire thread! +1000 internets for you, sir!

I totally feel the "back in my day the grind was real sentiment" as an ex-FFXI vet myself.