So its 0-2 in the male female glamour department, yay?

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I don't buy the acceptance thing since it's so easy to make really kinky outfits for a male character already. The proud male Roegadyn population on my server pioneers new out-of-this-world combos on a regular basis, and my FC mates seem far more worried about my BLM pants than they were when Hildi wore that dress: http://i.imgur.com/sU5xwG1.png

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I am very guilty of this.

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(She does her daily roulettes (all of them, including hest) on three different alts x_x Plus capping red gathering scrips every week. I don't know if I could manage that for longer than a day or two.)

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I do guildhest and expert, no other for now. I manage to get commends on my Summoner in expert. I spend most of my time crafting or gathering some items, gathering unspoiled soils almost every hour so the garden can feed the chocobos.

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The page you linked just stated "We know that 85% of MMORPG players are male" without a clear reference, and the only study linked from that page (the Daedalus EQT study, I believe?) is from 2001

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Not the first I see of the 80/20 ratio. I think I've seen a 98/2 for Eve Online. 80/20 might have softened with more casual-friendly games, it used to only count hardcore players. Now you got game-jumpers who might not play the game for long, who unsub and go elsewhere, etc. My brother plays a ton of other games at the same time (so he's a jumper). I can barely play one console game, even if I have the time. Just don't see myself investing in multiple MMOs at once.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I don't buy the acceptance thing since it's so easy to make really kinky outfits for a male character already. The proud male Roegadyn population on my server pioneers new out-of-this-world combos on a regular basis, and my FC mates seem far more worried about my BLM pants than they were when Hildi wore that dress: http://i.imgur.com/sU5xwG1.png

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I am very guilty of this.

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I think most male Roegadyn are very guilty of this.

I know I most definitely am.

More glamours for male characters please. Gale needs more options especially in the skimpy department. My FC gets worried when they see him wearing shirts.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

More glamours for male characters please. Gale needs more options especially in the skimpy department. My FC gets worried when they see him wearing shirts.

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We need a male only Kuja's attire >:3 !
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...sidia_Kuja.png

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Originally Posted by the-kuponut

We need a male only Kuja's attire >:3 !
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...sidia_Kuja.png

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With the haircut going to midback and feathery, also include the Trance version where more feathers are there.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

With the haircut going to midback and feathery, also include the Trance version where more feathers are there.

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Considering the female character-players nearly had a Revolt when they thought the Gambler's outfit would be male exclusive, do you REALLY think SE would be able to get away with giving 'an iconic character outfit to just males'?

which is hilarious that the arguement works when talkign about gear being withheld from women, but not men.

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Originally Posted by the-kuponut

We need a male only Kuja's attire >:3 !
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...sidia_Kuja.png

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I'd absolutely wear the heck out of something like that, especially if it were dyable.

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Originally Posted by the-kuponut

We need a male only Kuja's attire >:3 !
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...sidia_Kuja.png

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I'd wear it. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

If the server memory cannot handle male characters wearing certain hats (especially hats as slight as the bunny ears) then we're all in serious trouble when it comes to future gear rewards.

I don't buy the acceptance thing since it's so easy to make really kinky outfits for a male character already. The proud male Roegadyn population on my server pioneers new out-of-this-world combos on a regular basis, and my FC mates seem far more worried about my BLM pants than they were when Hildi wore that dress: http://i.imgur.com/sU5xwG1.png

I think it's just obliviousness. They have no idea how unfairly they're treating half of their players.

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What pants are those? :o

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Originally Posted by Iromi

What pants are those? :o

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Haha, they're the old BLM PVP pants (Wolfliege Brais/Wolfseye Brais).

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Haha, they're the old BLM PVP pants (Wolfliege Brais/Wolfseye Brais).

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Ohh! Thank you..hehe I love them!

i would want to see what would happen if SE made one male exclusive gear and one unisex.

People seriously need to start pushing for the dev team to just make everything unisex. I groaned when I saw the minfilia outfit was locked to girls only, because I know this topic would come up and we'd see the same old arguments that just don't make any sense. We're in a game where dudes have the loincloth, coliseum set, a varied to things that look cloth to womens underwear, dresses, and skirts, if you have something about dudes look feminine or crossdressing, then this game isn't the one for you. Making the sets unisex across the board is really the only option (And ideally keep the two versions are similar as possible). I'd rather have everything be open to everyone rather than be cut off from who knows how many cool and tough looking "guys only" sets or have dude PCs kept from wearing the more pretty and elegant "girls only" outfits.

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Originally Posted by raymon

i would want to see what would happen if SE made one male exclusive gear and one unisex.

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I'd assume there would be a rather large outrage on the Japanese forums, and then there will be a thread here bickering back and forth between the same people here.

Fairly normal person: "Could we get a unisex version?"
Fairly normal person 2: "Nice, a male exclusive outfit."
Angry person: "Make that outfit unisex SE or I WILL UNSUB!!!!111"
Smug person: "How the tables have turned..."
Tumblr extremists : "SE IS SEXIST, SEXIST I SAY"

There is a similar thread on the Japanese side of the forums so at least some of the community would be happy. Though I completely agree that releasing the restrictions for everyone is a better solution than angering the people with female characters who don't realise there's such an imbalance.

Some tidbits from today's Duty Commenced live stream (the community team showed the new GS outfit from the Live Letter, so I felt it couldn't hurt to ask about it).

Community Team: On the forums we previously mentioned the bunny ears would be unisex. I do not know if this has changed after that announcement.
Me: Could you relay the fact that players with male characters really really want the same number of equippables as those with female ones to the devs, please? :) We're 16 down already. Would be ace to have some recognition that there's an issue there.
Community Team: We heard you + others on the forums and let the dev. team know.

Wow this this thread has really blown up. Good to see that a majority of people agree with this topic. And good to hearbthat there is a similar thread in on the Japamese forums too.

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Originally Posted by the-kuponut

We need a male only Kuja's attire >:3 !
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...sidia_Kuja.png

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Yes. I want this.

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Originally Posted by the-kuponut

We need a male only Kuja's attire >:3 !
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...sidia_Kuja.png

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I'm going to be honest... I didn't know Kuja was a male until very late in the game.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

While the numbers are clearly not "fair", I'm still at a loss as far as what could really be made to equalize the numbers. Male specific outfits aren't exactly abundant in relation to female specific outfits IRL, as far as sources go.

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While male numbers may not equal female numbers in real life, this is a game and not real life. So when they design outfits, they can choose to focus more on females, more on males, or equally on both. What they have done so far is focus more of female exclusive outfits. In the case of the Thavnarian sets: One was female focused, one male focused, but they made the first female specific and the second female equippable, instead of male specific. So the effort was there on both outfits, but one was locked to a gender. That is what I'm saying with numbers.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

I guess since you're going based on numbers, you'd be happy if bucket armors were male exclusive, that sort of thing?

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That is not remotely what I am saying. I'm saying that when they put out new outfits, that they can either be equipped by both genders (altered or not), or have one for each gender.

You may not care about most outfits, or the style of them, but you have the options. Males do not compared to the females, and that is what I'm talking about. Style is subjective, what you may think looks terrible someone else may love. Again, its not about what is male specific in look, but what male characters can equip. I don't care what looks masculine or feminine. I want to be able to wear it.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

I mean, imagine someone like Vin Diesel in something like the bunny outfit or something Katy Perry would wear. Humorous, but not exactly appeasing to the eyes for nearly everyone, including much of the gay community.

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There are plenty of current outfits that people don't like already in the game. Some people hate tanks that wear swimsuit gear. There are people who think that skimpy cloths on both male and female characters look bad. The outfits still exist in the game, and its a fact of life that someone will have an outfit that someone else doesn't like.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Besides that, the concept of "playing barbie", as some folks would say, isn't exactly fun to a lot of male gamers. Mind you, that's an extremely ignorant outlook for many obvious reasons, but it's still one that many (dominantly) male gamers stick to when it comes to attire, but not how the customization of the character model looks, hypocritically.

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But there is a large enough outcry that people are still talking about it and complaining about the lack of fair options. This is only one of the many threads that have been made over the past few weeks. So there is an interest in having different options.

Again, I agree that making the currently gender locked options unisex would be the best in my opinion, what I'm more upset about is the fact that there is a very obvious favoritism that I want to change.

My only main issue with the devs is that they do take time to make make what was male-only glamour into unisex

1. the sailor set (there was already a female equivalent) was original male and was eventually made unisex
2. Setzer was arguably male-only due to showing only males wearing it in the initial preview, but was understandably made unisex.
3. The Thavnarian Bolero was also developed to be male-only and then a few days later they announced they're planning on making available to males

There won't be too many complaints if there are male and female equivalents of glamour sets. I don't understand why the devs don't bother, since it's not like lv.1 glamour gear is released per patch.

anybody else remember the thread that was complaining about the setzer outfit being male only?

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

People seriously need to start pushing for the dev team to just make everything unisex. I groaned when I saw the minfilia outfit was locked to girls only

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Well, if Minfilia's outfit were unisex...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0WzKSLCEAAeX8W.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, if Minfilia's outfit were unisex...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0WzKSLCEAAeX8W.jpg

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The guy on the right totally has the, "Not sure if I'd hit that. " face ;)

I didn't realize until this thread that the tights on the bunny outfit were black...

Please let them be dyable. I hate the shade of red/pink on the original ones, I can't get them to match anything to my satisfaction!

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Originally Posted by Ulfhade

While male numbers may not equal female numbers in real life, this is a game and not real life. So when they design outfits, they can choose to focus more on females, more on males, or equally on both. What they have done so far is focus more of female exclusive outfits. In the case of the Thavnarian sets: One was female focused, one male focused, but they made the first female specific and the second female equippable, instead of male specific. So the effort was there on both outfits, but one was locked to a gender. That is what I'm saying with numbers.



That is not remotely what I am saying. I'm saying that when they put out new outfits, that they can either be equipped by both genders (altered or not), or have one for each gender.

You may not care about most outfits, or the style of them, but you have the options. Males do not compared to the females, and that is what I'm talking about. Style is subjective, what you may think looks terrible someone else may love. Again, its not about what is male specific in look, but what male characters can equip. I don't care what looks masculine or feminine. I want to be able to wear it.



There are plenty of current outfits that people don't like already in the game. Some people hate tanks that wear swimsuit gear. There are people who think that skimpy cloths on both male and female characters look bad. The outfits still exist in the game, and its a fact of life that someone will have an outfit that someone else doesn't like.



But there is a large enough outcry that people are still talking about it and complaining about the lack of fair options. This is only one of the many threads that have been made over the past few weeks. So there is an interest in having different options.

Again, I agree that making the currently gender locked options unisex would be the best in my opinion, what I'm more upset about is the fact that there is a very obvious favoritism that I want to change.

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Even in fantasy, RL has an influence on what one creates. That's why I mentioned that. We're talking about fashion here... things that are based upon sources for inspiration. We have MANY fantasy sourced outlets of glamour that are already used... literally. Design concepts of what is male and female do come from RL inspiration though. I mean, in fantasy, they could design it so that everything but genitalia is covered. A complete opposite. Due to RL impact however, they won't do this, and need to pull from what is RL sourced. Having said that, creating things male specific is quite difficult to do. There is SIGNIFICANTLY more to work with on female models than male. There's a multitude of reasons why male models tend to look and dress the same every single time, whereas women tend to have much more dynamic attire to model.

You know though, it'd end up being an unfair numbers advantage in the end with 100% unisex options. I mean, I'd opt for female characters to have the bare chest necklace-only glamour that males have, but uhh... not really an option for this game. And we kinda already have a ton of bikini top glamour for female characters as is. This is also where some of the ideas of making exclusive female gear comes from. My Vin Diesel example was to show that, even in the case of a pro-unisex option, some outfits that are clearly female aimed, just look HORRIBLE on men. I sincerely doubt that the numbers are the source of what people complain about when it comes to lack of male options.

Do you really think people would be content with a sea of terrible outfits for male, but the same outfit matches for female? I don't. It's the quality that people want the most. What's the point of wanting terrible options just to be kept near equal on numbers when you'd (almost) never use them? Sounds petty to me on that end. Argue for quality looks, that's what actually matters. Unisex options are great and all, but most themes just don't work for one gender over the other. In the end, people will complain that there's more focus on female tailored gear, not the fact that they have access to it. When the focus shifts from the numbers game to what they're actually going to get, the complaints will keep continuing. That's what my underlying point is. Numbers don't matter, it's the quality. The issue about that though, as I said, is the inspiration is lacking when it comes to unique male-focused glamour. It's not easy and, just like IRL, male fashion is mostly a continued repeat of itself, meaning there's not much point to waste time with it in the game.

It would certainly be interesting to have all female glamour be male accessible, but like I said earlier, inequality would still exist due to how certain male equips are not socially acceptable on females for a game like this. Making it acceptable would be pretty much an exact replica of existing gear as is, defeating the purpose of what made the male version unique and attractive to use. I don't think there's a single female equip that couldn't be worn by a male character, if it were made unisex, despite odd appearances. Kinda back to square one at that point, right? I'd hope you'd be making the same complaints you do now, if something like that happened... though there are just some things that are impossible to realistically win on.

Edit: I just remembered an example of unisex options allowed but met with my quality over quantity argument and the complaints to follow even if quantity is met. The All Saints' Wake gear this year. Unisex yet is "oddly" met with a lot of hate by (mostly) male characters. Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

they won't do this, and need to pull from what is RL sourced. Having said that, creating things male specific is quite difficult to do. There is SIGNIFICANTLY more to work with on female models than male. There's a multitude of reasons why male models tend to look and dress the same every single time, whereas women tend to have much more dynamic attire to model.

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...are you saying they are favouring female characters because they are running out of ideas for making male-friendly costumes? There is so much male fashion available from the well of human history across the world that we'll never run out of inspiration, and that's only if they need to use real life clothing as a base in the first place. This is Square-Enix. They've made a fortune over the years coming up with appealing outfits for guys.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

it'd end up being an unfair numbers advantage in the end with 100% unisex options. I mean, I'd opt for female characters to have the bare chest necklace-only glamour that males have, but uhh... not really an option for this game. And we kinda already have a ton of bikini top glamour for female characters as is.

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If they want to do even more work and open up everything to both genders, that's great, but things like the necklace-only male glamours already have direct female-only equivalents with bikini tops (with arbitrarily different names) so they could just combine them into single items. I'm personally advocating that they equalise the numbers of items available so we each have the same number of equippables, nothing more. That would be fair.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

This is also where some of the ideas of making exclusive female gear comes from. My Vin Diesel example was to show that, even in the case of a pro-unisex option, some outfits that are clearly female aimed, just look HORRIBLE on men.

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That's your personal opinion. You believe that people would recoil from Vin Diesel in a bunny suit, yet it's a fact that the Chippendales are known across the world. What you think would look 'horrible' on men might be someone else's favourite look; why is your opinion more important than ours?

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Do you really think people would be content with a sea of terrible outfits for male, but the same outfit matches for female? I don't. It's the quality that people want the most. What's the point of wanting terrible options just to be kept near equal on numbers when you'd (almost) never use them? Sounds petty to me on that end. Argue for quality looks, that's what actually matters. Unisex options are great and all, but most themes just don't work for one gender over the other.

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I'd be more content than I am seeing the female characters getting more and more exclusive goodies in every big patch while we sit around getting told that we're not socially acceptable human beings for wanting to dress our characters a certain way, that's for sure. You're right that it would be a shame to get complete trash, but we've done the work and that's not what we're missing out on; the Thavnairian bustier and bunny sets are two of the most popular outfits in the entire game and easily adaptable into nice pieces for men with minimal graphics work. We do pay the same subscription fees as people with female characters, therefore we have the right to complain when we're being short changed. Repeatedly.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

I don't think there's a single female equip that couldn't be worn by a male character, if it were made unisex, despite odd appearances.

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Cool, let's aim for that, then?

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Edit: I just remembered an example of unisex options allowed but met with my quality over quantity argument and the complaints to follow even if quantity is met. The All Saints' Wake gear this year. Unisex yet is "oddly" met with a lot of hate by (mostly) male characters. Hmm...

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It's hated because it's not a complete item like the girls' set and it's yet another example of how little the current design team blatantly favours female characters, at a time when we're getting reminders all too frequently. Set aside from the other issues I quite like the boots, gloves, hat and broom, and I love the overall theme of the event. Please don't attempt to derail this thread by implying that things could have been worse than what we got.

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It would certainly be interesting to have all female glamour be male accessible, but like I said earlier, inequality would still exist due to how certain male equips are not socially acceptable on females for a game like this.

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Except the only male-only glamours that are not female accessible...have female-only counterparts that are not male accessible. And they tend to be mainly swimsuits.

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My Vin Diesel example was to show that, even in the case of a pro-unisex option, some outfits that are clearly female aimed, just look HORRIBLE on men. I sincerely doubt that the numbers are the source of what people complain about when it comes to lack of male options.

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And this is subjective. I think Katie Perry looks tacky and weird, not great. Doesn't look better than on Vin Diesel.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Not the first I see of the 80/20 ratio.

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Not the first time I've seen it either, but the majority of those statements tend to be of the "but everyone knows this" quality or based on data from ten years ago (or older), instead of backing it up with non-outdated surveys. ^^; Which is why I tend to not always take them seriously.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

80/20 might have softened with more casual-friendly games, it used to only count hardcore players. Now you got game-jumpers who might not play the game for long, who unsub and go elsewhere, etc. My brother plays a ton of other games at the same time (so he's a jumper). I can barely play one console game, even if I have the time. Just don't see myself investing in multiple MMOs at once.

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Well, considering FFXIV is a very casual-friendly game... that doesn't really argue for stubbornly maintaining the whole 80/20 ratio, even if it holds true for some games even today. =)

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Originally Posted by raymon

anybody else remember the thread that was complaining about the setzer outfit being male only?

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And that's the only case where I agreed, actually. It's one thing to have gender-locked outfits when they are comparable. An outfit based on a previous FF character does not compare to a sexy bunny suit. If it had been, say Setzer vs the FF10-2 Lady Luck outfit, or Setzer vs Edea outfit, then I don't think nearly as many had agreed with that thread. I know I wouldn't have, because the two outfits would then have been 'equal' in fan value -- no, I'm not arguing popularity of the original games, I'm merely saying that both would then have been "based off of a previous FF character".

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

A traditional masculine version of the bunny suit? Not exactly plausible. A testosterone driven Thavnairian Bustier set? Yeah, that'll go over well with them. In order to fit the "masculine" appeal, massive changes need to be made to sets like that. If you change those things a lot, they lose their identity. They might as well be separate items, just as the Thavnairian glamour equips have two different sets (the female-only and the unisex), which then raises the question of how well this drastically altered item also looks on a female character... back to square one of that crowd complaining that there's more female than male outfits.

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Traditional masculine bunny suit? Have you even listened to the people talking about Chippendale? Plenty of masculine sexuality in that package, no?

Anyway... Why would we need a testosterone-driven Thavnairian Bustier set? There already is one masculine outfit -- the Bolero set. Yes, it's unisex, but that doesn't change that it's the masculine version of the Bustier set. What's wrong with having two unisex sets, one with feminine energy and one with masculine? Both of course slightly different on male and female bodies, to allow chestlessness on boys and extra chest coverings on girls (for example). That way the boys and girls who want to go for the tougher look can choose the masculine set, and the boys and girls who want to go for the softer look can choose the feminine set. And everyone apart from those who would try to control other people's choices would be happy, right?

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That way the boys and girls who want to go for the tougher look can choose the masculine set, and the boys and girls who want to go for the softer look can choose the feminine set. And everyone apart from those who would try to control other people's choices would be happy, right?

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Now if it only were that easy in the real world, without being called broken or a freak or made to be a pariah. It would all be personal choice, not "following what the instructions booklet says". You know, freedom.

For those mentioning the Setzer outfit gender locked thread is this the one people are mentioning.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-gender-locked

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

snip

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I'm not sure how this will sound, but based on everything you've said it somewhat feels like you are missing the point, somewhat. People aren't upset that female only gear exists, they are upset that their aren't an equal/equivalent amount of male specific gear, and that gear designed to be the "male" version are being made unisex. And while you are correct in stating that the inspiration for a lot of the glamour gear comes from real life, remember that in real life we aren't limited like we are in the game; we arent "told" we can't wear a shirt because it's female only. Remember, there are plenty of males fashions all over the world that some cultures might view as "feminine", like how Scotland has kilts.

And on a side note you mentioned that male most male fashion is a copy/paste affair, in this or other words, but I don't think people would mind a few "copy/paste" outfits as long as they were male specific, and slightly different drom one another, like maybe a hoodie? Or a bandage outfit; which reminds me of a mummy, lol.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

For those mentioning the Setzer outfit gender locked thread is this the one people are mentioning.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-gender-locked

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Yep, that should be the right thread. =)

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Originally Posted by Cidel

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...253c15a906.jpg

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*throw like as many as possible because of last panel face*

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Originally Posted by Cidel

I have a theory for why there's an alarming imbalance of Female to Male gender-locked glamour sets, here's that theory:





I regret nothiiiiiiiiiiing!
http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...253c15a906.jpg



...And it happens basically every new glamour patch....

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sailor uniform + japan = girl clothes
Be happy that it is not female only ^^

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Originally Posted by Felis

sailor uniform + japan = girl clothes
Be happy that it is not female only ^^

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Why would anyone be happy that's it not female only when it was originally (planned to be?) male only? That makes no sense, there was no possibility they'd remove it from males.

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Originally Posted by Felis

sailor uniform + japan = girl clothes
Be happy that it is not female only ^^

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You DO realize that the outfit in the game is based on an actual sailor suit, not a bastardized version of it apparently appropriated into Japanese school uniforms.

Think Donald Duck with pants, not Moe Schoolgirl anime. For the Former is closer to the game's version than the latter

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

You DO realize that the outfir in the game is based on an acual silor suit, not a bastardized version of it apprnely appropriated into school uniforms.

Think Donald Duck with pants, not Moe Schoolgirl anime. For the Former is closer to the game's version than the latter

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TBH, the Spring Dress set would have been perfect to combine with a 19th (or early 20th) century frock coat as the male-only option...

It seems that many others have echoed what I would have said in response (Particularly Serilda, thank you), so I shall agree with them instead of simply writing down everything as it would be the same thing, except in my own words.

That said:

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

You know though, it'd end up being an unfair numbers advantage in the end with 100% unisex options.

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This makes absolutely no sense. If its 100% unisex, there is not unfair numbers as EVERYONE has access to everything. They could make it so that the Ti Leaf Lei has a top for females, much like swimsuits do. It would still be distinct in that it has the necklace part, making it a unique item compared to a pure swimsuit top.

Again, what is good looking is subjective. That is not what we're talking about here. People will complain about their perceived quality regardless of numbers, that will always be there. This gear is a recolor of previous dungeon gear. That gear looks terrible on this race or class. That is a subject for another thread, not this one.

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Originally Posted by Ulfhade

They could make it so that the Ti Leaf Lei has a top for females, much like swimsuits do. It would still be distinct in that it has the necklace part, making it a unique item compared to a pure swimsuit top.

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...you mean like this?
http://xivdb.com/screenshots/item/85...3ed653a1dc.png

That already exists. Coronal Summer Halter. It's the female-only equivalent of the Ti Leaf Lei.

Female-only and Male-only are fair if there are equivalents. It's when there are no equivalents that you run into problems.