Sadly, my SMN typically has more HP than our tank. Yes, bad DPS makes for a rough run. Bad anything makes for a rough run. But it's very clear that most of the tanks I get stuck with are really DPS who were too impatient for a queue as such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
How do I deal with sluggish tanks? Simple, really: We kick them for being AFK. Want to stay in the party? Act like it.
How do you deal with sluggish tanks?
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09-30-2015, 07:03 AMRamath
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09-30-2015, 07:13 AMMetalwrath
I play both dps classes and Main a Warrior.The ignorance towards tanks in this thread amazes me.As a tank i always gauge on first few pulls how my party would fare if i make bigger pulls.If i am confident in their ability i will pick up the pace.
There's a lot of speed running i see from Paladins picking up huge groups with a Ninja and monk as the dps.Makes no sense.It's more effecient to make smaller pulls with those dps so they can burst down single targets faster.
As a tank i wait for my full team to get to every pull area and boss.I sorry if you don't respect the rest of the team .If you want you can leave and enjoy your dps Qeue.I will pull at my own pace as i see fit.It's not time trial.I get no bonus eso for completing faster.
As a dps i have patience for the tank.I let them pull and position before nuking to make their job easier.Seriously whats the rush? -
10-01-2015, 04:04 AMLeonusI'm always more amazed at the general healer and tank populace and their ignorance towards DDs. Good dps can push the tempo if dungeons, but when a tank still states that "they pull at their own pace" and not the pace the dps/healers allow them to is just plain arrogance and the need to feel in control because they are they tank. Not everyone wants to spend forever in a dungeon. On top of that, a lot of times, people have more fun when the pulls keep coming rather than an 10 min breaks between each pack of mobs, people tend to be less distracted and focus more on the task at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwrath
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10-01-2015, 04:11 AMAiseliaIf a tank isn't comfortable pulling bigger, then it's arrogance to think they should pull bigger just because you don't want to spend the time in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
If a tank wanting to go at their own pace is arrogance, then a DPS wanting them to go faster because they want their OWN pace is just as arrogant. Except potentially more arrogant, because a tank may be pulling smaller because they're uncomfortable with pulling bigger (be it due to their perception of the group or otherwise), while a DPS wanting the tank to pull bigger is generally based solely out of wanting to rush and not spend more of their own precious time. I don't think any DPS could honestly ever say that they dislike small pulls because it makes them feel uncomfortable. -
10-01-2015, 04:19 AMBlitzace
One thing people never understand, With either dungeons or raids, If you want a smooth/fast/perfect run, we have something called PF, Bad people join? kick em replace em.
DF Is usually a mixture of the good the bad and the ugly. Tanks pulling so little my EoS can keep him up all dungeon without me casting a single heal. Healers standing still for 5-10-15 seconds while they could be dpsing.
DPS that could actually make an effort of getting above 300+ DPS.
Thats DF though, i usually tank or heal and yes, it sometimes annoys me seeing my health sitting at 75-100% on big pulls when i use lets say sentinel and instead of helping the DPS healer just sits there clipping his nails.
But in the end i realise, we have casual players who struggle to heal & dps, They panic, not comfortable with it etc.
I always think its unfair to expect people to hold up to your own "skill level" i'll just call it for now. Not everyone is as comfortable on a heal or tank class. People are far more likely to call you out on your mistakes, and you damn well know thats right.
Man if i would call out people for having a low DPS it would be a full time job in DF. But once again, Thats DF. its not perfect its not great at all times. Sometimes, not all the time -
10-01-2015, 04:22 AMArchaellQuote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
One thing to keep in mind, even though DDs and healers might allow them to pull at faster pace, it means nothing if the tank is unable to tank at such a pace. Better players can slow down, but less skilled players usually can't speed up.
Btw. if according to you slow tanks/healers are arrogant, what are our average dps players then? -
10-01-2015, 04:28 AMLeonus
Most of the time, a tank Survivability is on the healers and dps. What is there to be uncomfortable about (except for possible aggro isdues). It is arrogance on the tank's behalf to have an idea of what your healer and dps are capable if and not accommodate because if "I am tank, I set rules/pace/whatever" mentality. No sane dps/healer requires tanks to pull something completely unmanageable, but this "I am tank, I am king" mentality has to go.
Just as arrogant, but more misinformed. Define the numbers for an average dps.Quote:
Btw. if according to you slow tanks/healers are arrogant, what are our average dps players then?
Generally, better players than the tank can make up what that tank lacks, dps can tank their own mobs, or switch accordingly and healers can keep people alive.
I know if I pull off of a tank in a dungeon, I don't complain, I just kill it. Something that's dead does zero damage. -
10-01-2015, 04:33 AMAiseliaSo does this "I am DPS, you must do as I demand at the speed I demand, whether you like it or not" mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
How about we replace it with a "We're a team, let's work together to make it smooth and fun" mentality? -
10-01-2015, 04:55 AMLeonusI find it far more common for tanks, and to a lesser extent, healers, to talk down to dps more frequently than vise versa due to the perceived importance of their roles. Team play would have to start and be enforced harder by those doing most of the "discriminating", to make progress towards the team mentality, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
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10-01-2015, 05:57 AMAiseliaI wonder if that's more because Tanks/Healers think themselves above the DPS or if it's because the DPS would rather not wait for a replacement tank/healer (if the tank/healer ditches) or wait in queue again (if they get kicked for being mouthy).Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
I mean, it would be a pretty safe assumption that the one who can get back into a dungeon in 15 seconds would be more willing to risk being kicked if they call out a DPS for doing stupid things than the person who's going to wait 5-20 minutes. It's not necessarily that they think themselves more important, but because they have less to lose. -
10-01-2015, 06:27 AMPicori
Lot of times I will be playing with my tank friend and sometimes like raging strikes not up yet so tell him I need 30 seconds or so left before pull on boss.
We talking on team speak so it's not in the party chat. So looks like he is just standing there before pulls. -
10-01-2015, 04:23 PMDiscFlash, Overpower, and Unleash allow all tanks to effortlessly tank entire packs of mobs. The only way you could possibly have trouble tanking them is if you decided to drop your stance & try to DPS. At that point it's on the healer, and it's annoying to me when healing if the DPS & I have to leave the tank behind because he just doesn't wanna run the dungeon he queue'd for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaell
It would be different if the issue was that your healer wasn't good enough to keep up. But that's rarely the case, healing in dungeons is extremely easy.
And by work together you mean the tank & healer should not be expected to put any effort into their roles? You gotta give if you wanna get. If you play an in demand role like tank so you can get away with acting like a diva you're going to generate a lot of enmity among your party members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
For those 30 seconds you have four members doing 0 damage. In return you have gained 20% more damage for 20 seconds. I would probably be more bothered to find out that is the reason the tank is acting like he's afk. I've been tempted to just drop when tanks pull that after a crit adloquium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Picori
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10-01-2015, 04:28 PMAstral145
Simple I pull out my trusty Bumper Thumper and give the tanks a good thumping. :P
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10-02-2015, 03:21 PMSida
DF is for everyone, for young and old, casual and raiders. Not just for career gamers. As long as the run goes smooth enough with no deaths and stuff dying, nothing to complain. If I happen to have a time constraint that's less than the time given by DF, I tell about it up front in the start (and I don't even queue if I have less than at least half an hour) Even then I don't try to rush the party, I just mention that I need to leave at that time, even if the run is still going.
For the record, some of the quickest ex runs I've got was with tank who only pulls one or two groups at time. That kept me as healer pretty much full time damaging and stuff died way faster than with these "need to pull whole level" mentality tanks. -
10-02-2015, 10:13 PMPFM
I got two monitors for a reason fam. I just go make money while tank is waiting on cooldowns/eating a sandwich/explaining to his mom that it's NOT a fetish but a lifestyle
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10-06-2015, 07:27 AMPheonixCainexactly, i hate those sluggish tanks, most tanks i got in DF are either extremely undergeared or pulling every pack one by another, sometimes i asked them to pull more, but than again i dont want them to pull the four bees in neverreap cuz i dont think they cud manage that shit, some of them replied me that they dont know if they cud handle more adds with their low level gears, but honestly we ran with i150~i160> gears when heavensward just released and we even pulled more than that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Socomlord
so at the end i just give up bothering with that, and que expert as a tank myself and NEVER STOP pressing forward, and being like "OH YOU WANT TO REST? HOW ABOUT GOT OUT OF THE DUNGEON?", "DON'T YOU FRIGGIN STOP MOVING AND BETTER CATCH UP WITH ME SOLDIERS!" etc etc
it solves the problem perfectly -
10-08-2015, 01:22 PMSyzygian
I main DRK, a job pretty well engineered for big pulls and speed-running dungeons. I never pull fewer than 4 mobs in either ex dungeon if I can help it, and yet, there's DPS for whom that is still not fast enough.
Waiting for healer MP within reason is a completely legitimate cause for pause between pulls especially if you're like me and you pull sufficient trash to threaten your life without heals for the first few moments until one or two of said mobs are picked off, thus leaving healer MP exhausted afterwards. Buffs are also legitimate, and for those of you bitching about ready checks, allow me to direct you to this video courtesy of the one and only Xenosys Vex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fXrO8avT_4
As a tank I feel it is my job to facilitate maximum performance from the rest of the party. By no means am I the only one that controls the pace of the run, but unless the DPS are literally just running around pulling stuff willy-nilly, I do control how quickly we move from pack to pack, get those packs in position and kill them efficiently, and a tank's utility to 4-man dungeons is facilitating this sequence of events. The healers and DPS set the pace, I simply set that pace into execution, and adapt to the best of my ability.
If you as a DPS (and I mained DPS (DRG) before 3.0, with PLD/WAR as secondaries) cannot stand to wait for the tank to do his thing (and I've almost never encountered a tank that literally waited 1 or more minutes between pulls or before a boss without communicating a reason), and feel the need to behave in ways that are rude because its anonymous, its the DF, then you can expect the same in return. For a DPS to pull a mob that the tank is waiting a couple of server ticks longer to pull is a direct insult to the tank. Not allowing a ***few seconds*** between pulls and throwing a hissy fit about it when the tank has a legitimate reason or at the very least, a non-malicious intention, is like slamming a door into someone's face when they asked if you could hold it for them.
As a tank I never yell at the healer if I die, I realize that I pull big and it doesn't always work out even if I warn them first and pop big CDs. I never yell at my DPS if they aren't putting out A4S-enrage-beating numbers (tho I may talk smack in an LS off to the side...), but I stand by the idea that you can't please everyone. Its the goddamn DF, its never going to be perfect, and if you expect speed-runs every time with massive AoE deepz dropping huge pulls of trash in 20 seconds, those expectations are simply unrealistic and you have no one to blame but yourself for having them. Even doing large pulls at a brisk pace, the flip side of the coin for the OP is the DPS that doesn't wait for you to get mobs in position before they go ham, and then rips off the tank and proceeds to give them shit about it.
Protip for DPS that love speed-runs: Your ability to go ham and rip hate on the first of many mobs your tank tags to be pulled into a corner and efficiently AoE'd down directly slows down the run, because now I've gotta tab to the mob you are now tanking, voke+Unmend it, and if you're continuing to go ham on that same target without switching, or if you are a ranged and not running it within my melee range, I will have no choice, if I want to get the thing off you, but to run my ass all the way over to you and Power Slash it off you, ruining my AoE DPS, throwing the 7 other mobs I pulled out of position, gimping and potentially endangering (if any of them cleave) the other DPS, and turning my back to the remaining trash, meaning I can't parry and thus take more damage, gimping the healer's DPS. So you're actually directly slowing down your own precious speed-run just to say "hey check out how badass I am not watching my threat meter! i'm totally making this tank look like a scrub!"
Treat people with respect folks. If a run doesn't go your way I guarantee you there was something YOU could have done to have made it not/less so, and I would ask that everyone, not just DPS, consider that before pissing in the cheerios of a stranger because your esos didn't get served to you on a mythrite platter fast enough. The problem is so many people have an attitude of infallibility that the flaw is always with other people's way of doing things or playing. I don't care if you're wearing a Domitor title and full i210 gear. In no way is that a license to be a douchebag to random people in an element of content that is designed for everybody, and to do so anyway is categorically immature and selfish. Speed-runs are a wonderful thing, they add an element of intensity and challenge to content that can get very easy and stale. But currently the DF doesn't have a "speed-run" checkbox; until it does, deal with it. -
10-10-2015, 12:45 AMAiseliaNo, by work together, I mean that people should drop the attitude like yours and not scream and cry that everyone that isn't playing how they want to play is just being lazy and bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disc
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10-10-2015, 12:49 AMValkyrie-Amber
easy just run ahead and bring a few groups to lazy tank and if you die before tank grabs agro kick tank for tanking too slow.
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10-10-2015, 09:54 AMrawker
If some DRG pulls ahead of me, i'll let him tank it and just laught at his corpse.
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10-10-2015, 02:34 PMMalevictonI think you forgot to add "and hope the healer goes along with my plan or they'll likely all continue along just fine while I sit back looking pouty" but I'll assume it was for brevity's sake and not from an inflated sense of importance.Quote:
Originally Posted by rawker
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10-10-2015, 07:49 PMtjw
Courtesy is a two way street. That goes for all three roles when they interact as a party. Mistakes will ALWAYS happen; that's the nature of a game. And all roles are given tools to fix those mistakes. I generally push myself to the best as a healer in most content, depending on the necessities of the party, and I will attempt to go above and beyond, if only to finish faster.
As a healer main, perhaps it's easier for me to notice the majority of actions all members in my party take because I like to keep an eye on their status bars, so it's easy to tell if they are truly using cooldowns and abilities. I generally have a certain threshold on the 'bullshit meter' I can take from either the tank or the DPS when it comes to their actions and how it affects the overall party; if that threshold is breached, the vote-kick happens or vote-abandon, or in the case where both fail, well...misery loves to be shared. I WILL exert my right as a healer to heal or not to heal.
I will say this. A weak, slow and aggro-mismanaging tank is far better than a DPS that only cares about their own numbers and refuses to adapt to the general skill of the party. With the first, there are two main scenarios; first would be a newbie and inexperienced tank (it happens often enough that I'm not surprised by one in DF), and the other is the truly "I play my way" tank in a bikini and panties that pulls one mob at a time. However, the "I play my way" tank is easily fixed; after all, the rest of us aren't too squishy and can take a few hits or ten as long as I'm on point with heals to cover our asses.
The "I play how I want" DPS is far worse than the "I play my way" tank in my opinion, for not only are the penalties to their deliberate antics harsher than if they were done on a tank, the attitude is far more poisonous. A tank pulling one mob at a time is still doing their job, similar to a chef frying one fry at a time for a large serving. A DPS disruptively playing is similar to the runner spraying ketchup all over the fryer and the uncooked fry; sabotaging over another person's role because "they can".
Call it spiteful, but if a DPS repeatedly and deliberately hamstrings proper pulls and makes it difficult for a tank (experienced or not) to retain hate, I WILL let that DPS die. Of course, accidents happen, and if it's the occasional face-pull or mistargetted mob, I'm completely fine with that and will do my best as a healer to fix that.
There's the opposite side too, however, I find a balls-to-a-wall tank and impulsive-impulse-drive DPS much easier to handle. Simple, if you tank in Deliverance and refuse to use any cooldowns, I will heal in cleric stance and refuse to use any OGCDs. Oh, you're dead? Poor baby. And a slow DPS is annoying, but being slower at least doesn't put out a negative attitude. The other party members will just have to cover their share of DPS.
It also comes down to whether individual members of the team use their tools to fix a mistake. A DPS not using their enmity-lowering skills is as bad as a tank refusing to provoke a lost mob or a healer refusing to use off-GCD abilities because of an extreme 'you take it you tank it' mentality.
In the end, I don't expect all DPS in DF to be bring AS4 world-first numbers to a levelling dungeon or XDR, nor do I expect tanks to have perfect cooldown rotations, enmity management and their best DPS. As long as you can fulfill your role adequately to have a comfortable run, I'm more than happy to be with you.
EDIT: Wrong topic in this sub-forum to reply to....nonetheless, some points actually relate so I'm leaving it here. -
10-11-2015, 05:39 AMAdire
If a tank is being unreasonably slow, I call them a hesitank and mumble to myself about it.
It's very annoying, but what can you really do? There are so many tanks that feel they can go AFK as much as they like or stand around for whatever and will make you tank if you're not okay with it and try to speed them up for the benefit of the group :\
When I tank, I don't hold the group up unless it's absolutely necessary. If a DPS is STILL pulling just to be annoying, then I may let them tank what they pull. Being unreasonably slow and expecting everyone to sit down and shut up is not good. -
10-11-2015, 08:16 AMKolainaso going to start doing this. brilliantQuote:
Originally Posted by tjw
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10-11-2015, 12:20 PMXLauncher
I just leave. If the tank isn't comfortable pulling at a brisk pace, fine, I'm not going to be a jerk and pull for them, but I'm not going to suffer through a run one pack at a time either. No doubt, it takes longer for me to wait out the debuff and queue for a new run, but at least I can do other things like craft, leves on another job, or even just alt tab to the Internet proper. In contrast, staying with a one pack wonder is just hideously boring and thoroughly unfun.
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10-11-2015, 05:26 PMValenthI haven't read the entire thread of responses, so this probably has been said already, but I talk to them with all politeness that everyone is initially due. A few kind words can really do wonders. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangela
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10-11-2015, 07:46 PMSlyRoyaleI actually had a tank who let me tank one of those iron giant enemies in the Great Gubal Library, all because I used Spineshatter Dive so I could get right into my combo and not lose Blood of the Dragon. Thankfully, I had my mitigation cooldowns ready, and the healer understood my actions before I explained myself. Long story short: the tank stood there like an idiot while the healer, co-DPS and I were doing our jobs with me also playing tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by rawker
When I play on one of my tanks, I try to go fast especially if I have a MNK or DRG in the party. I actually feel bad if they lose Greased Lightning or Blood of the Dragon because it means I didn't set a proper pace for them to take advantage of. To me, not being able to support your party within your power isn't fair for whoever DF pairs you up with, and I felt what that tank did today was shamefully selfish and petty. -
10-11-2015, 08:41 PMtjwPlaying Devil's Advocate here; why wasn't your BotD cooldown up for the giant? Unless you were 60, a DRG in a library run should be able to keep BotD up for a whole pack of mobs and let the BotD cooldown reset ahead of the next pack, or even finish the last pack with an almost full 30 seconds left on the buff to carry onto the next pack. While I agree that the tank was being unnecessarily rude, you ARE given tools as a DRG and a MNK to maintain your uptime of buffs; MNK can lose GL III easily, but their buff is not restricted behind a cooldown, and will build up in no time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyRoyale
There are more ways to supporting a party then just going fast and applying the most DPS. If I had to choose between a MNK/DRG/BLM/SMN/NIN losing their GL/BotD/Enochian/DWT/Huton (almost all of which have tools to maintain uptime) and the overall party HP, MP and TP, I would choose the later. Losing any of their buffs will be inevitable; downtimes exist for a reason. I'm sorry, but I value my tank's TP and healer's MP that will take longer to regenerate over your buff that will expire in 6 seconds that most likely will have a cooldown available soon anyway. A proper pace just doesn't take into account the DPS, but the healers and tanks; compromise has to be met by all three roles when it comes to setting a pace to 'take advantage of'. -
10-12-2015, 02:15 PMSlyRoyaleGonna edit this real soon to explain myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw
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10-12-2015, 02:17 PMSlyRoyaleI already used the buff at the beginning of the trash pull before the giant, and the last enemy died before I could land my 4th combo step. Since the pack went down in a timely fashion, MP and TP were hardly an issue. Thing is, the tank paused for no reason and took too long to approach the giant. Feeling pressured by my buff ticking down and having it still on cooldown, I felt it was appropriate to jump ahead and trust that the tank would do their job. Instead, they betrayed that trust and made the healer's job unnecessarily harder (the healer even understood why I did what I did, and not only healed me but assisted with DPS while I used Bloodbath + Keen Flurry for mitigation).Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw
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10-12-2015, 10:03 PMBrinzy
There are sluggish tanks, and then there are tanks that refuse to accommodate for their DPS.
If you have strong multi-target DPS in your party, why are you pulling so little at a time when you can very easily tank two packs and have them die just as fast as one pack would? I'm generally pretty neutral on this subject, but this one thing annoys me to no end. When I'm playing a tank in leveling dungeons and I get a strong AoE DPS that is playing properly, I make sure to pull lots because it speed up the dungeon dramatically. -
10-13-2015, 09:47 AMArkTheGreat
This is not a problem unique to FF. And it boils down fo this : it is not 'your' dungeon run any more than it is theirs. They can llay how they like. They are not pulling "too slow" unless they are missing some kind of timer and wiping the grp. They might be pullimg slower than you would like, but that is your problem, not theirs. This thread is full of extremes, used to bolster each persons argument. Slow suddenly means pausing for 3 minutes between packs. And quick suddenly means chain pulling speed run. Simple fact - if you are unhappy with the group, why do you have to suddenly start kicking players? Why cant you just be an adult and thank the grp, explain you hoped for a faster clear, and LEAVE THE GROUP. next time, to avoid this issue, you might like to tank yourself, or, more likely, form your own grp with intentions of a speed run.