Immersion, The Facts & Fiction

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Two kind of playerbase when it comes to Immersion:

1) easy immersed "hey look a bird :D" "that tree is green and has bark"

2) put detail thoughts into an object or an idea "hmm a cave, wonder what it connects too.." "hmmm this airship is of unique style... maybe a stolen technology from garleans!"

.. i still wondering why they didn't put an NPC A at departure and NPC B at arrival, save some time instead of making a airship models and scenery... clearly players don't give a shiz about their detail.

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I appreciate detail. Choosing to appreciate that detail makes all the difference as Ciccoricco alluded to in his article.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Magnets?

How do they work?

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That video was a waist of my time. I know how magnets work, It's just easier and cooler to say that they are magic. Witch i believe they are. That is, when you think of magic as something that is complex and amazes you.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

What am I reading?

Who has an extremist point of view?

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anyone who would argue "welllll my friends all hate harry potter so more people hate it than like it" when its one of the biggest franchises worldwide.

When you start to argue things that way, that's extremism. Illogical "my friends are like this so it must be true" arguments.

That and its the exact same few people consistantly arguing that immersion is bad and getting very few likes for it.

If you think you're position is right, make a thread and poll people on it. Because so far the posts about saving immersion have been getting a lot more likes than the ones asking for "freedom"

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

That video was a waist of my time. I know how magnets work, It's just easier and cooler to say that they are magic. Witch i believe they are. That is, when you think of magic as something that is complex and amazes you.

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Originally Posted by Richard Feynman

"You've got to stop and think about it, about the complexity, to really get the pleasure.... The inconceivable nature of nature."

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I enjoy the complexity. I enjoy the application of understanding that complexity. I enjoy not understanding that complexity just as much.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

thats because people on here have extremest views. Which is one of the reasons the game won't do well.
Harry potter is one of the most successful rip-offs of all time
star wars TOR has over 1million beta signups and is nearing or over 500k preorders now - Age Of conan has over 2 million players but is still regarded a failure
Shadow of the Colossus was a hit and is thought of as a classic and it forced people to walk around without even having enemies in the world. - I've never played it and don't really want to.

I provided you with multiple -real life- success stories to back up my arguments, but you argue "i dont think people really like those things" even though they have been far more successful than FFXIV. - I have never mentioned FFXIV as being a success, I have said that I think it could be a success in the future, but it is not in it's current state

Immersion is something created by the game devs. Its what brings a game a good review. If this wasn't true than games would be reviewed on gameplay alone, and they are not. - Are you still argueing this? Seriously? Are you that small minded?

I actually provided real arguments, quotes, and links to games that were a success based on immersion and you just said "no one agrees with you" - I said no one agrees with you because of your inability to face rality and see fact as fact instead of continuing to argue with it, which you STILL are. It was not the links or games I was saying no one agreed with, it was your attitude.

Although the quotes i showed, clearly shows people who -study- the field do.... - Yes and it's these people who 'studied the field' that said Michael Jackson's Moonwalker wasn't good enough to market to cinema, it went straight to video in the US, and became one of the fastest selling movies of it's time

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Now stop mentioning immersion. you have proven time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time again that you have no understanding on how to how to use it properly, we have pointed this out to you, and you are still using it. You are making yourself look worse with every post, STOP.

If you wish to contribute to this thread now, then perhaps offer suggestions or ideas on what S.E could add to it to make it more immersive for the player (subjectively). That's add to it, not remove from it.
People already complained about enough stuff that's been removed from the game, and removing more stuff will only make everything worse.
If we can offer to S.E suggestions on things to add to the game they may consider them and impliment them in a future patch. Sitting around argueing on a thread about something won't get their attention nor offer anything good to this forum.
If you offer a suggestion I will share with you my opinion of your suggestion along with possible suggestions that could enhance it further if I can think of any, or I would offer a suggestion of my own.

If your next post is another rant about immersion in games and movies and books and such then I'll simply take it that you've become a troll and will report you to S.E for being one.

If your next post is an idea as to the improvement of the game however, then I will apologise for anything I've said in the past that made have seemed rude or insulting.

I can't say fairer than this.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Now stop mentioning immersion. you have proven time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time again that you have no understanding on how to how to use it properly, we have pointed this out to you, and you are still using it. You are making yourself look worse with every post, STOP.

If you wish to contribute to this thread now, then perhaps offer suggestions or ideas on what S.E could add to it to make it more immersive for the player (subjectively). That's add to it, not remove from it.
People already complained about enough stuff that's been removed from the game, and removing more stuff will only make everything worse.
If we can offer to S.E suggestions on things to add to the game they may consider them and impliment them in a future patch. Sitting around argueing on a thread about something won't get their attention nor offer anything good to this forum.

If your next post isanother rant about immersion in games and movies and books and such then I'll simply take it that you've become a troll and will report you to S.E for being one.

If your next post is an idea as to the improvement of the game however, then I will apologise for anything I've said in the past that made have seemed rude or insulting.

I can't say fairer than this.

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on the first page, im pretty sure my second post currently has more "likes" than yours does. so why would i stop if people seem to agree?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

anyone who would argue "welllll my friends all hate harry potter so more people hate it than like it" when its one of the biggest franchises worldwide.

When you start to argue things that way, that's extremism. Illogical "my friends are like this so it must be true" arguments.

That and its the exact same few people consistantly arguing that immersion is bad and getting very few likes for it.

If you think you're position is right, make a thread and poll people on it. Because so far the posts about saving immersion have been getting a lot more likes than the ones asking for "freedom"

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It's not that immersion is bad. You really are choosing to be willfully ignorant or you really aren't reading. It's that your level of immersion suggests an unhealthy design choice when it needlessly dictates immerison...

nevermind you're going back on ignore.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I enjoy the complexity. I enjoy the application of understanding that complexity. I enjoy not understanding that complexity just as much.

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The reason i didn't think to highly of that video was because he kept stalling and asking the asker questions instead of answering them.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

on the first page, im pretty sure my second post currently has more "likes" than yours does. so why would i stop if people seem to agree?

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Yes because for some reason you believe that the more likes you have, the more factual your opinion is. Oh hey, if you add up all the likes I've had throughout this thread I outnumber you 10-1. Clearly everything i say to you is absolute total fact and cannot be argued by anyone anywhere ever! :D

You are officially a troll.

Now to go and report you.

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

The reason i didn't think to highly of that video was because he kept stalling and asking the asker questions instead of answering them.

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It's called the Socratic method.

You don't learn by being told answers. You learn about thinking and understanding your answers. He was trying to incorporate a discussion. He gave the interviewer more than he deserved. When you stopped trying to follow him you stopped wanting to learn. It's not your bag that's fine. It was a joke post anyways.

This applies tremendously to this thread.

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Immersion is something created by the game devs. Its what brings a game a good review. If this wasn't true than games would be reviewed on gameplay alone, and they are not.

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Immersion is only a part of what brings a game a good review especially since gameplay alone can create immersion so games can have good reviews and it not be based wholly on immersion (Being that the immersion only exists because the gameplay exists). Unless your trying to say gameplay does not create immersion (In that case some of the best games of all time have no immersion because they are pure gameplay)

Back to the original topic. The def. of immersion based on your link is "To engage wholly or deeply; absorb" if they add something like a minimap and that stops someone from "engaging wholly" then clearly that took away from the immersion instead of adding to it (At least for that player). I don't see how you can possibly argue that anything they add will add to immersion when anything they add could stop someone from engaging wholly?

What I think is your confusing someone being immersed (Ex they accept the game now and all aspects of it and engage wholly) vs. something changing the state of possible immersion (Ex. you add minimap player A is no longer engaged wholly while player B now is engaged wholly therefor the minimap changed the state of immersion). Your making a pretty big assumption that anyone who plays this game will be immersed("To engage wholly or deeply; absorb") regardless of the content of the game but this just is not the case and whenever anything is changed in the game someone who possibly was immersed will no longer be immersed and a player who wasn't immersed could possibly become immersed.

P.S. if someone already mentioned this sorry I didn't read all the post.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

on the first page, im pretty sure my second post currently has more "likes" than yours does. so why would i stop if people seem to agree?

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Oh and btw, if there was also a dislike button I'm fairly sure your 'immersion' thread would have it's dislikes well into the 3 digit area by now. Go and count the amount of threads there with people agreeing, then count the disagreeing, seriously, go do it, like, right now. I think you might be surprised at how many people hate your idea.

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Originally Posted by Reabs

Immersion is only a part of what brings a game a good review especially since gameplay alone can create immersion so games can have good reviews and it not be based wholly on immersion (Being that the immersion only exists because the gameplay exists). Unless your trying to say gameplay does not create immersion (In that case some of the best games of all time have no immersion because they are pure gameplay)

Back to the original topic. The def. of immersion based on your link is "To engage wholly or deeply; absorb" if they add something like a minimap and that stops someone from "engaging wholly" then clearly that took away from the immersion instead of adding to it (At least for that player). I don't see how you can possibly argue that anything they add will add to immersion when anything they add could stop someone from engaging wholly?

What I think is your confusing someone being immersed (Ex they accept the game now and all aspects of it and engage wholly) vs. something changing the state of possible immersion (Ex. you add minimap player A is no longer engaged wholly while player B now is engaged wholly therefor the minimap changed the state of immersion). Your making a pretty big assumption that anyone who plays this game will be immersed("To engage wholly or deeply; absorb") regardless of the content of the game but this just is not the case and whenever anything is changed in the game someone who possibly was immersed will no longer be immersed and a player who wasn't immersed could possibly become immersed.

P.S. if someone already mentioned this sorry I didn't read all the post.

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Yeah it was mentioned, no worries, the whole mini-map thing was the case that immersion one a player-to-player basis was subjective. the player only felt immersed if they allowed themselves to be immersed, if they didn't, that's their own fault, not the games. The assumption is that anyone who plays the game could be immersed, if they didn't let little things like a mini-map or a *skip cutscene* button bother them so much. They're only small little things, so bickering over them and demanding their removal just seems kind of childish, and selfish, because other players appreciate that these things are here.

Just a run down on our little 'debate' thus far ;)

Players want instant gratification, its simple, thats how the new player base are.

my gaps between playtime is slowly increasing :/, lets see how easier the patch 1.19 makes the game.

Regarding realism in fantasy, please read up "plausible fantasy".

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it can be as unrealistic and fantastical as it wishes to be.

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This is true only if the world lore accounts for it in some way.
"Magic" and "Gods" allow for quite a bit of leeway in this respect but there are still some boundaries to be respected.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Players want instant gratification, its simple, thats how the new player base are.

my gaps between playtime is slowly increasing :/, lets see how easier the patch 1.19 makes the game.

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yeah i feel the same way. I don't think easymoding the game will improve it either, just make people get bored and quit faster.

And my final part on 'The Immersion Arguement' is:

Virtual Reality Immersion

I'd like to point your attention to this particular bit on this page:

The term is widely used for describing immersive virtual reality, installation art and video games, but it is not clear if people are using the same word consistently. The term is also cited as a frequently-used buzzword, in which case its meaning is intentionally vague, but carries the connotation of being particularly engrossing.

The sensation of total immersion in virtual reality (VR) can be described as implied complete presence within an insinuated space of a virtual surrounding where everything within that sphere relates necessarily to the proposed "reality" of that world's cyberspace and where the immersant is seemingly altogether disconnected from exterior physical space.

Now, to be more constructive can we offer suggestions on how to improve the play-to-play immersiveness of the game instead of bickering over what one simple word means?

I hope when the PS3 launches some new servers come up that noone can transfer onto. That way the servers will be new fresh and no max level players and if you want to reroll over there you have the option to do so. If they do that I shall make the All-Stars :D

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Originally Posted by tymora

Regarding realism in fantasy, please read up "plausible fantasy".


This is true only if the world lore accounts for it in some way.
"Magic" and "Gods" allow for quite a bit of leeway in this respect but there are still some boundaries to be respected.

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A way to instantly transport is in the lore. That's like saying Star Trek ruins immersion by teleporting.

The game also utilizes cutscenes to present certain aspects of the story.

There are instances where your character is knocked out but you wake up somewhere else in mere seconds. The depiction of that time is not visually presented to you even though you can play in third person.

When your character is knocked out you can view your unconscious body from the third person view.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

And my final part on 'The Immersion Arguement' is:

Virtual Reality Immersion

I'd like to point your attention to this particular bit on this page:

The term is widely used for describing immersive virtual reality, installation art and video games, but it is not clear if people are using the same word consistently. The term is also cited as a frequently-used buzzword, in which case its meaning is intentionally vague, but carries the connotation of being particularly engrossing.

The sensation of total immersion in virtual reality (VR) can be described as implied complete presence within an insinuated space of a virtual surrounding where everything within that sphere relates necessarily to the proposed "reality" of that world's cyberspace and where the immersant is seemingly altogether disconnected from exterior physical space.

Now, to be more constructive can we offer suggestions on how to improve the play-to-play immersiveness of the game instead of bickering over what one simple word means?

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wasn't the whole point of this thread to bicker over a definition? Or did you think everyone would just agree with you automatically

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

I hope when the PS3 launches some new servers come up that noone can transfer onto. That way the servers will be new fresh and no max level players and if you want to reroll over there you have the option to do so. If they do that I shall make the All-Stars :D

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This +infinity. I'd join that server quite happily. I imagine quite a few people would in fact. Sometimes it's nice to start fresh and do things differently, it let's you enjoy parts of the game you may have missed the first time around (like the main story arc of another city if you only had one character)

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

And my final part on 'The Immersion Arguement' is:

Virtual Reality Immersion

I'd like to point your attention to this particular bit on this page:

The term is widely used for describing immersive virtual reality, installation art and video games, but it is not clear if people are using the same word consistently. The term is also cited as a frequently-used buzzword, in which case its meaning is intentionally vague, but carries the connotation of being particularly engrossing.

The sensation of total immersion in virtual reality (VR) can be described as implied complete presence within an insinuated space of a virtual surrounding where everything within that sphere relates necessarily to the proposed "reality" of that world's cyberspace and where the immersant is seemingly altogether disconnected from exterior physical space.

Now, to be more constructive can we offer suggestions on how to improve the play-to-play immersiveness of the game instead of bickering over what one simple word means?

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Future Aiship Content Ideas

More Dynamic Quests

So she's still going on relentlessly, even after pretending to quit it? "play-to-play immersiveness"?
"Immersiveness" isn't even a word... her argument has transcended logical fallacy to become entirely surreal!

Since there is no actual logic or coherency behind it there is also no point in either reading or arguing her statements. I'm outta here, but unlike Konachibi i won't return in five minutes, saying triumphantly that "the things i say and the things i do are different", lol!

This thread is 19 pages full of wisdom.

When I think of immersion I think of tits, and all your opinions not regarding a positive view on tits are stupid.

Immersiveness is a word, just like eggy is a word.

eggy- having the properties of an egg.

or Grainvaulting is putting grain in a vault so you can eat it latter.
If it isn't a word, It just became one.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

So she's still going on relentlessly, even after pretending to quit it? "play-to-play immersiveness"?
"Immersiveness" isn't even a word... her argument has transcended logical fallacy to become entirely surreal!

Since there is no actual logic or coherency behind it there is also no point in either reading or arguing her statements. I'm outta here, but unlike Konachibi i won't return in five minutes, saying triumphantly that "the things i say and the things i do are different", lol!

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It is in the world of video games.

oooo, did I just shoot you down?

So sorry.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

It is in the world of video games.

oooo, did I just shoot you down?

So sorry.

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that was posted in 1999

and further

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Compelling or Interesting Characters
History and Environment
A Story Worth Following
Levels of Reality

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thank you for finding an article that pretty well backed up all my arguments against you.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

that was posted in 1999

and further


thank you for finding an article that pretty well backed up all my arguments against you.

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/yawn

yeah, amazing how i found one by accident when you couldn't find one on purpose

*please refer to virtual reality immersion post earlier*

I think everybody needs to calm down a little. ^_^

ALTHOUGH I AM FINDING THIS ARGUEMENT IMMMERRSSSIIING.

I'm glad this is on the internet and not at a convention. If it was, we would probably be immersing our fists into each others faces. =)

Also, because that site has been there since 1999, that makes it like a tome from the rpg decade.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

/yawn

yeah, amazing how i found one by accident when you couldn't find one on purpose

*please refer to virtual reality immersion post earlier*

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Way to contradict yourself by saying you were never coming back to this thread, having it locked and not replying to "stupid ignorant comments" That don't agree with your views... and then seconds later you relentlessly come back doing the exact thing you said you weren't going to do. LOL

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Originally Posted by Caliburn

I think everybody needs to calm down a little. ^_^

ALTHOUGH I AM FINDING THIS IMMMERRSSSIIING.

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XD

Awesome XD

I wish we could turn this into a comedy thread like the gunhalbard one, but the threads gone to the dogs now. So there's only really two choices, either it's 1: used to suggest possible new 'immersive' content or 2: is closed by the next dev/rep that passes through it.

Though if it were 2 then the people who spend all their time in it (not me, I've been all over the forums in 2 laps by the time they post one reply) would have nowhere to vent their "i know what immersion is when really i don't" rage so then they'd end up screwing up other threads.

You could actually say this thread was helping the forums by keeping 'the immersion team' in one enclosed space.

Yay :D

I'd have another chocolate milkshake but I've already had 2 today.

You know, there was an Extra Creditz video about the difference between making a game immersive and making it engaging... Tried to find it before but unfortunately there was no giveaway in any of the video titles. If I manage to find it sometime, I'll post it here - assuming the thread doesn't get locked by then.

Or I'll just make a new thread.

You should know the first rule of all forums: When in doubt, make a new thread.

Yeah, I said if this one gets locked.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

One cannot argue for instance that the mini-map in FFXIV decreases the immersion. The fact that it is in the game means it is PART OF the game, therefore, it is part of the immersion.
One cannot argue that teleporting in FFXIV decreases the immersion.
It is in the game, it is part of the game, it is part of it's immersion.

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Correct but incorrect at the same time. Immersion is the total overall feeling one possesses when playing a game (or reading a book, watching a movie), therefor everything in the medium DOES affect the immersion of the medium itself.

However, you are 100% incorrect in the assumption that the mini-map cannot decrease immersion. Each facet of the game holds some value to the individual's feeling of immersion and the mini-map CAN decrease the immersion of that said individual. Your next sentence was right, as its in the game its part of the immersion, but in that case it can either be a increasing factor to immersion or a decrease to it. Anything that affects immersion goes one way or the other, and that's where your statement is incorrect.

I think the original problem was not with defining what immersion is, but rather the overall feeling of immersion and the particular areas while make you feel more immerse or not and if the game is going the direction of adding less immersing "things" or removing opportunities to become a more immersive environment.

For instance I could argue that the ability to switch classes ruins my immersion. Why can I beat a L40 Puk, but then swap to another class and get 2 shot by it. Why? My character isn't any physically weaker, so why should I get hit for more... I'm just not as adept at wielding a lance as I am wielding a sword but that doesn't mean I should turn to paper the moment I switch... what gives!?


tldr version:
Immersion can be gauged (per individual basis) and EVERYTHING effects it (positive or negative), so saying something cannot is just flat wrong.

Ok, here's how to obtain full immersion.

1- slam your head into your keyboard until you can't remember a single thing.
2- look up at you computer monitor and see ff14 on the screen.
Hopefully the swelling in you head will cause you to believe what you see is real. Remember not to hit your head too hard. If you do it to much you may lose the ability to look at your screen.

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

Ok, here's how to obtain full immersion.

1- slam your head into your keyboard until you can't remember a single thing.
2- look up at you computer monitor and see ff14 on the screen.
Hopefully the swelling in you head will cause you to believe what you see is real. Remember not to hit your head too hard. If you do it to much you may lose the ability to look at your screen.

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my solution:
1: drink waaaaay too much alcohol
2: log onto ffxiv
3: spend 2-3 hours shouting at the screen whenever something doesn't go your way.

Apparently this is how football fans get immersed in football matches on the t.v.

I need a catchphrase to type at the end of my post...

how about あなただけだまされてきた。

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

how about あなただけだまされてきた。

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I was trying to use 'these are my thoughts on the matter' but sometimes I posted things that weren't opinions which would render it void.

Maybe I'll use wark wark.

Wark wark!