It's time to reevaluate the idea of adding a PLEX/Chronoscroll-like system to FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Or that, rather.

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RMT is obviously happening. It's been over a year and the RMT spam is still going strong. Somebody must be buying it or they wouldn't be sending tells.

Yes, this would be RMT and it would be P2W. However, we already have that (see above).

I think this could be a good thing to add to the game because it would replace/reduce the current RMT without the destructive side effects of 3rd party RMT (over saturation of the in game economy with goods and $$, hacking other players accounts for profit).

I think it's worth the devs considering (and this is from someone who doesn't like the cash shop).

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

That was an awful comparison and you should feel bad for making it.

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Why is it an awful comparison? because its about a drug? The comparison is how people were in an uproar about it because they didn't like it, and to push their opinion, they stated facts that weren't true and spouted assumptions based more on how they felt more so than actual data. And now, you don't hear anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You have yet to provide one decent example of where this has worked in a traditional MMO. Until you can show where it has worked what makes you think it would work in this game when no other MMO that has done it was successful? Eve is a compeltely different kind of game so it isn't an example of a traditional MMO.

You even hold WoW up on a pedastool when EVEN THEY HAVEN'T MADE THIS WORK. WoW does not prove your point. Not one bit.

Stop talking out of your rear and put up an actually decent example. (And do try and remember that Tera and Wildstar are both failing and are therefore not good examples) Until you do you're making assumptions that this would actually work and then you continue to argue like that OPINION is a fact. It's not a fact. It's entirely your assumption and opinion that it would benefit this game.

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for the love of god it's:

PEDESTAL!

Because it doesn't even remotely relate to video games at all, nor is it a "Well it worked there so obviously it can work here!" magical fix.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Because it doesn't even remotely relate to video games at all, nor is it a "Well it worked there so obviously it can work here!" magical fix.

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Im not saying the solution. Im saying this argument, the argument itself, its similar in how its playing out like the argument in CO. The way people are arguing, thats what I meant by the comparison.

How many ways can I say no to this?

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Sadly, if WoW can get away with this and it becomes a success then ARR will probably follow suit since eventually. Despite initial outcries the cash shop is a success.

As other's have said, I don't think this will stop RMT since they could still lower their prices and make money that way and/or sell max leveled accounts.

The good thing about this game is that you don't need gil for many things besides except for housing and relic progression.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Sadly, if WoW can get away with this and it becomes a success then ARR will probably follow suit since eventually. Despite initial outcries the cash shop is a success.

As other's have said, I don't think this will stop RMT since they could still lower their prices and make money that way and/or sell max leveled accounts.

The good thing about this game is that you don't need gil for many things besides except for housing and relic progression.

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Hey, if it's less money for those low-lifers, that's a positive.

this is a good idea. let the people with lots of irl money pay for my sub in exchange for gil. also let them pay for my retainer surcharge.

gil really doesn't have a lot of value as there aren't a whole lot of sinks. just housing, really. this would really stimulate the catgirl economy

World Of Warcraft introduce the Token system...
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/181...token-3-2-2015

I don't like this systems because "Rich" players will own the game, not only In Real Life but in games also.
Yup.. I'm adult, In wow use few boost for to help me lvl new character for crafting purpose and help me gain gold in game, because I have no financial issue for just US$60.
I have more than 20m gold in wow with 9 active lvl 100 character there, with the token system I can just sub 1 month and no need to spend any money at all for the rest of the subs.

This system will force the poor player to spend their real money to gain Gil and give an advantage to rich player, people will less share their knowledge because of this reason, the community will be more narrow, for sure crafting forum will be more quiet after that.

After for a while player who keep spend spending their money for Gill will give up and quit the game, I'm guarantee it.

For housing, Ask SE for solution... If you want to have Gil to buy a house by using a real money, that won't help at all because the house slot number still same and with higher demand the price will keep increasing and Inflation because player can gain Gil easily.

Just wait how Blizzard manage it later, either successful or not.

WoW is doing it? Then of course Yoshi has to do it. Guy hasn't had an original thought in regards to this game that didn't come from WoW since the relaunch. If WoW decided to replace all its weapon models with fish you can guarantee we would be slapping around mobs with trout within a month. Monkey see, monkey do.

Some player have a talent to do business, the know about the demand, how to speculate the market, to control the market price, doing sales and having a large network.

Some player don't, they just enjoy game like normal..... Just look at EVE online.

Not the best solution to prevent gold seller, example:
SE sell 12.99 € = Token 1 month sub = 100k Gil
Gold seller can sell more cheaper with 10 € = for 100k Gil

the fact that SE already has a small version of an item mall scares me. tells me that the idea of pay to win might actually have a future here in a pay to play game where it should never be.
your inviting a disaster such as giving gold sellers a means to make even more money and be more annoying than they already are.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

...The back and forth discussion in the prior thread got heated until the inestimable Yoshi-P chimed in with the following (on November 6, 2012)...

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I agree with YoshiP, this is an interesting idea.
Btw, I heard that China version of FFXIV is paid by logon time, something like 1USD for 3000min, should I consider it as P2W?

add comment:
Forget to mention that I agree with OP's points as well.
But I believe after their re-evaluatiion, it still would not happen.
One of the reasons is that SE has increased GIL given from the system previously and it did not comply with this suggestion ^^;

This solution is most likely for player who desperately need Gil (I mean legally buy Gil) or player who do not have Real Money to pay subs.
But still fail if that player don't know how to make Money/Gil.

By replacing monthly subscription with tokens that can be purchased with in-game currency, you are in effect reducing RMT costs, which they can then use to buy new game versions to bot with.

More bots = more in-game currency = reduction in real-money price = more people buying illegally generated in-game currency = more money for RMT = more game version being bought = more bots...

SE charges: 130,000gil = 1 token = 1 month of subscription
But due to the above scenario, RMT can charge: $10 = 130,000gil = 1 token = 1 month subscription (Nice, legacy prices!)

And SE will see none of this money...
= less money for game development
= more items in the cash shop to try and generate real-world money (because let's face it, it makes the world go round)

With this system, you are in effect putting SE in direct competition with RMTs, who do you think is going to come out on top here?!

Also, pay-to-win: isn't just buying gear, it's buying a spot on a raid team that will clear content for you.


Le edit...

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

In contrast to what you think, this system isn't putting SE in competition with RMT, it's putting players in competition with RMT.

Anyone can buy a token, players who buy tokens are indirectly selling gil if you think about it ... More competition = cheaper goods (gil is the good in this case). Throw in the existence of a legal route, players will feel safer taking the legal route, token selling will have a competitive advantage v.s. buying from a shady spammer.

The end result is that it screws over RMT because they no longer have a monopoly on RL money to gil conversion.

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Thank you, I think I see how this works now.

So, $13 is 1 token from SE which can be sold on the MB for price dictated by the player, say 130,000gil
- It's secure
- Not against TOS

But for those who don't want to pay real-world money for a subscription, or those who can't, wouldn't they have to take up a currency generating style of play (130,000gil is really little, it'll probably more expensive I think)

So for example, say $13 will get me 130,000gil
But what if an RMT says $10 = 200,000gil?

Wouldn't I be getting more gil for less real-world money?

So some people might buy $20 worth of gil from an RMT = 2 months game time and a little extra, I can spend on a house, so no money goes back into the economy or I spend it on items on the MB I wouldn't have purchased otherwise
- so circulating more money into the economy causing inflation (am I right?)

Wouldn't that be detrimental to other players?

What if the RMT bought tokens off the MB and resold them for higher prices?
- Wouldn't those who rely on the tokens for game time either leave the game or be forced into a currency generating style of play?
- Wouldn't this encourage botting by actual players to keep up with RMT?

So... according to some arguments made in this thread, people will spend their money to buy RMT gil to buy a subscription (that they could have bought with their money). Legit.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

So... according to some arguments made in this thread, people will spend their money to buy RMT gil to buy a subscription (that they could have bought with their money). Legit.

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Why not? It's cheaper...

And while you're at it, you can buy extra gil for that nice swimsuit set you saw on the MB earlier, or that crafted ilvl110 set...

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Originally Posted by Interstella

By replacing monthly subscription with tokens that can be purchased with in-game currency, you are in effect reducing RMT costs, which they can then use to buy new game versions to bot with.

More bots = more in-game currency = reduction in real-money price = more people buying illegally generated in-game currency = more money for RMT = more game version being bought = more bots...

SE charges: 130,000gil = 1 token = 1 month of subscription
But due to the above scenario, RMT can charge: $10 = 130,000gil = 1 token = 1 month subscription (Nice, legacy prices!)

And SE will see none of this money...
= less money for game development
= more items in the cash shop to try and generate real-world money (because let's face it, it makes the world go round)

With this system, you are in effect putting SE in direct competition with RMTs, who do you think is going to come out on top here?!



Also, pay-to-win: isn't just buying gear, it's buying a spot on a raid team that will clear content for you.

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Except it's not like how you described at all. Players would buy the monthly sub tokens with actual money and receive an in-game item, and sell to people in-game as trade. RMT? Yes. Is it bad? No.

Now, the people saying "this is pay to win because people can just buy raid clears with gil they got from real money." Okay. What's stopping them now? Oh right, a little thing called the TOS. The one that is blatantly ignored by people who go out and buy gil so that they can buy raid clears with gil they got from real money. And even those that don't, there's a clear demand for them so people must have the gil somehow. How is either scenario different?

And to others, ruin the economy? Think about it for a minute. You're trading an item for gil that's currently circulating on your server. This adds no extra gil to the economy. What happens when that guy who's all like "haha I have credit cards with no limits" goes and buys gil from the RMT? Let's say they buy 30M. That's 30M instantly introduced to the economy that wasn't there before, because you can be sure as hell the RMT aren't buying anything with it, and most likely the person that bought the 30M already has plans for that same 30M and buys things, spreading the gil around. The more money in an economy, the less the value. When more money is circulating throughout, that's what we call "inflation." RMT could not win with this. Most likely, if a legal form of RMT were available, the players who would much rather have the safety of keeping within the TOS, and RMT would see a lot less as the people who buy these tokens would lean away from the current RMT. What happens when the RMT find out it's not worth it to stay? They leave. Their piles and piles of swimming gil in their vaults would go *poof!* And that neither adds or takes away from the economy, because it was never circulating.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a video to record in which I'll probably be complaining about how much this thread makes my head hurt.

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Originally Posted by Interstella

By replacing monthly subscription with tokens that can be purchased with in-game currency, you are in effect reducing RMT costs, which they can then use to buy new game versions to bot with.

More bots = more in-game currency = reduction in real-money price = more people buying illegally generated in-game currency = more money for RMT = more game version being bought = more bots...

SE charges: 130,000gil = 1 token = 1 month of subscription
But due to the above scenario, RMT can charge: $10 = 130,000gil = 1 token = 1 month subscription (Nice, legacy prices!)

And SE will see none of this money...
= less money for game development
= more items in the cash shop to try and generate real-world money (because let's face it, it makes the world go round)

With this system, you are in effect putting SE in direct competition with RMTs, who do you think is going to come out on top here?!



Also, pay-to-win: isn't just buying gear, it's buying a spot on a raid team that will clear content for you.

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In contrast to what you think, this system isn't putting SE in competition with RMT, it's putting players in competition with RMT.

Anyone can buy a token, players who buy tokens are indirectly selling gil if you think about it ... More competition = cheaper goods (gil is the good in this case). Throw in the existence of a legal route, players will feel safer taking the legal route, token selling will have a competitive advantage v.s. buying from a shady spammer.

The end result is that it screws over RMT because they no longer have a monopoly on RL money to gil conversion.

Or I can do like this....
Buy lot's of token.. sell them when the price is still up.
Have lot's of gill.. Wait till price cool down a bit then buy back all the that token with the lower price.
After some duration the price will drop with some undercut, but at first Launch normally everything will be sell like a hot cakes.
Maybe I will gain more 30% revenue with same sub time.
This is legal.....

Pay to win is depend on people perspective... some people feel complete if they have house or vanity and never care about end game content, then buying a house using Gil from token can be considered yes for that reason, for other people might be not.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

Or I can do like this....
Buy lot's of token.. sell them when the price is still up.
Have lot's of gill.. Wait till price cool down a bit then buy back all the that token with the lower price.
After some duration the price will drop with some undercut, but at first Launch normally everything will be sell like a hot cakes.
Maybe I will gain more 30% revenue with same sub time.
This is legal.....

Pay to win is depend on people perspective... some people feel complete if they have house or vanity and never care about end game content, then buying a house using Gil from token can be considered yes for that reason, for other people might be not.

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Personally I rather not have the cash shop. Getting vanity stuff is kind of the end-game for me - I don't do coil and crap.

However I see the selling of tokens as a "can't beat them, join them" type of compromise solution. We obviously can't stop RMT, no one can - WoW has been trying for over 8 years.

Might as well let players in on the gil selling - that's exactly what you are doing when you buy a token BTW, selling gil. More sellers = more competition = reduced margins for everyone = screwing over RMT. This effectively ends RMT's monopoly on RL money to gil conversion.

People who buy gill are going to buy gil one way or the other - which is why RMT still exist; someone is buying it.

Should we be encouraging spending of RL money to achieve game objectives? Of course not. But we can't prevent it either, might as well set it up such that it screws over RMTs.

Why do people have such a hard opinion on something like plex.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

In contrast to what you think, this system isn't putting SE in competition with RMT, it's putting players in competition with RMT.

Anyone can buy a token, players who buy tokens are indirectly selling gil if you think about it ... More competition = cheaper goods (gil is the good in this case). Throw in the existence of a legal route, players will feel safer taking the legal route, token selling will have a competitive advantage v.s. buying from a shady spammer.

The end result is that it screws over RMT because they no longer have a monopoly on RL money to gil conversion.

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Nope and Nope.

Every game that has done this, the RMT just buy up all the tokens and resell them. Why bother with all the botting now they can just buy the player tokens and resell them.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Nope and Nope.

Every game that has done this, the RMT just buy up all the tokens and resell them. Why bother with all the botting now they can just buy the player tokens and resell them.

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RMT ... buy up all the tokens ... That obviously means that the tokens were too cheap! Players selling tokens should gouge them for more gil - i.e. supply and demand will automatically fix it.

What does this have to do with botting? ...

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Nope and Nope.

Every game that has done this, the RMT just buy up all the tokens and resell them. Why bother with all the botting now they can just buy the player tokens and resell them.

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That could simply be fixed if there was a system to limit an item to X amounts of trades. The seller can trade it, but the person traded to would have it bind to them. Same with if it was on MB. Lock it to the buyer.

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Originally Posted by Havelockvet

Why do people have such a hard opinion on something like plex.

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Because players from FFXI and FFXIV associate "RMT" as being similar to "Hitler." You'll note that the SE MMOs are pretty much the only ones that players argue against it.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

If all of a sudden people who had better things to spend their money on stopped subscribing, about half if not more of the subs in this game would be gone.

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The exodus as a result of implementing legitimized RMT comes to mind. I will be among the many.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

Because players from FFXI and FFXIV associate "RMT" as being similar to "Hitler." You'll note that the SE MMOs are pretty much the only ones that players argue against it.

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Ah. Godwin's law. It is interesting that people can look at something that is good for both the devs and players and have this kind of reaction. The only con argument that has made sense is that players don't want other people to be able to legitimately buy Gil, which is fair. The rest of them are fun reading though.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

Because players from FFXI and FFXIV associate "RMT" as being similar to "Hitler." You'll note that the SE MMOs are pretty much the only ones that players argue against it.

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Although falling foul of Godwin's law tends to cause the individual making the comparison to lose his argument or credibility...

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Congrats, you are now a statistic.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

That could simply be fixed if there was a system to limit an item to X amounts of trades. The seller can trade it, but the person traded to would have it bind to them. Same with if it was on MB. Lock it to the buyer.

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Defeats the purpose of it then.

Look, I've played two (freemium in NA) games that have tried to do this, and one was shut down (Wizardry Online), and the other has more bots than players (Archeage.) In the latter, the gold inflation (from the RMT, though easily-killable bots) effectively made it so that 20$ buys you less than a dollar in benefits. Both of these were PvP games. EVE is also a PvP game. FFXIV is not a PvP game.

Did it put an end to illegal RMT? No. It just ramped it up.

In the latter case, now instead of RMT bots stealing your account and looting it, they instead wipe out your credit card with these tokens, and sell them to players below cost.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Defeats the purpose of it then.

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That doesn't defeat the purpose at all, if the item in question can only be sold over the MB ONCE, and the person who purchases has it locked to their account, then the RMT bots are not going to buy them up, it would be a complete waste for them.

Reading through this thread the arguments against this are quite strange, pay2win? What are you winning? There is no REAL PVP in this game, the only real competition in the game between players/FC's are world first clears which would effect about 0.001% of the population.
I'm not exactly for the system, but my own reasons are because I don't think a game should encourage those who have more time than money to grind for gold so they can pay for their next months subscription. Might be good for subs but from an ethical standpoint its stupid as hell. Hey kid, your mom wont pay your sub? Here's an idea, instead of getting a paper round go farm gold so you can play more!

/shrug

I'm split on it. On one side, Runescape for one has done this for a few years, and yes I realize they have a lot of things most people consider P2W, but I was happy to finally have a way to keep my account active without having to really give them anymore money. I also still play WoW, and am considering doing it there as well, gold wise. The problem with XIV is that Gil is easy as all get out to make, and I could see the item dropping fast in value unless they implement a system to prevent price manipulation. On the other side, I don't see a reason for it in XIV due to the game being so young.

Also, to add to this conversation to those saying how it wouldn't combat RMT, it worked for RS within a week. http://services.runescape.com/m=news...s--one-week-in

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Originally Posted by Laerad3993

Also, to add to this conversation to those saying how it wouldn't combat RMT, it worked for RS within a week.

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One week? Not exactly a good measure of consequences..

How about two months in:
30 NOV 2013


...And seeing that RS has F2P access doesn't exactly support argument that it will 'help' the game... nor our's.

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Originally Posted by Laerad3993

I'm split on it. On one side, Runescape for one has done this for a few years, and yes I realize they have a lot of things most people consider P2W, but I was happy to finally have a way to keep my account active without having to really give them anymore money.

...

Also, to add to this conversation to those saying how it wouldn't combat RMT, it worked for RS within a week. http://services.runescape.com/m=news...s--one-week-in

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I'm sure there will be regulations to prevent manipulation - e.g. you can only see the cheapest PLEX available and you won't know the seller's name.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

One week? Not exactly a good measure of consequences..

How about two months in:
30 NOV 2013


...And seeing that RS has F2P access doesn't exactly support argument that it will 'help' the game... nor our's.

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Not sure I care, or would take a players word on how they feel the economy has been impacted. Being a member since it launched back in 04, I can assure you Jagex was extremely efficient at eliminating a large chunk of betting and RMT. But I'm sure you know all about that being a player yourself and not flocking to opinions and unofficial comments on the matter. /endsarcasm

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

One week? Not exactly a good measure of consequences..

How about two months in:
30 NOV 2013


...And seeing that RS has F2P access doesn't exactly support argument that it will 'help' the game... nor our's.

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This is exactly what I've been saying would happen. Inflation. There is solid evidence right there in a game that implemented such a system that inflation would go poorly.Simple items shot up in price for no other reason than too many people now had a lot of money. People need to pay attention to these examples and how bad the side effects are. It isn't just about people getting free accounts, or stopping RMT. There ARE other effects on the game that can very easily be very negative. How long before buying the RMT cash becomes required just to stay competitive in the market???

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This is exactly what I've been saying would happen. Inflation. There is solid evidence right there in a game that implemented such a system that inflation would go poorly.Simple items shot up in price for no other reason than too many people now had a lot of money. People need to pay attention to these examples and how bad the side effects are. It isn't just about people getting free accounts, or stopping RMT. There ARE other effects on the game that can very easily be very negative. How long before buying the RMT cash becomes required just to stay competitive in the market???

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Inflation? No more money is created from using a PLEX-type system. So this must mean all that happened was money people has been hording - for "rainy days" or just didn't know what to do with - was put back into circulation.

PS: In RL this doesn't happen because money you keep into the bank is loaned out by the bank, so it actually remains in circulation.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This is exactly what I've been saying would happen. Inflation. There is solid evidence right there in a game that implemented such a system that inflation would go poorly.Simple items shot up in price for no other reason than too many people now had a lot of money. People need to pay attention to these examples and how bad the side effects are. It isn't just about people getting free accounts, or stopping RMT. There ARE other effects on the game that can very easily be very negative. How long before buying the RMT cash becomes required just to stay competitive in the market???

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Lol, that item dropped to 7m in value. Fast. Inflation did not last long and other than the people that manipulated prices at the GE when free trade was remove, it hasn't been anywhere as bad since. Quit fear mongering.

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Originally Posted by Laerad3993

Lol, that item dropped to 7m in value. Fast. Inflation did not last long and other than the people that manipulated prices at the GE when free trade was remove, it hasn't been anywhere as bad since. Quit fear mongering.

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Inflation is a very valid concern and even you say "it hasn't been anywhere near as bad since' meaning IT DIDN'T GO AWAY. So it's perfectly valid. Please don't deprecate my concerns just because you don't agree. It's not fear mongering to talk about details that clearly did and continue to happen. It's called reality.