there's a lot of sensitive people in this game

The healer already knows if they're good enough to manage holy while healing. They don't need friendly reminders from other people.

I wouldn't kick you but I can also understand why the tank and healer would think "Oh great, we got an annoying dps who is gong to tell us how to play and be a judgmental killjoy the whole time. Why don't we kick them now and get someone else?"

It's an overreaction but there are enough annoying dps that the tank and healer might have been out of patience before they met you.

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Originally Posted by ThinkPInk

It shouldn't be expected for a healer to dps. If they are comfortable and have the skill to they will dps without you ever having to ask.

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tbh.... i remember using holy + cleric stance with a much lower i lvl then we have right now on our average party setups. And it IS imho part of the whm job, also part of the sch job to dps, if ppl are safe.
But even more on whm. I often have ppl die faster if there is no holy going off, since its a nice way to prevent dmg and also deal a lot at the same time.

in most normal dungeon runs - divine seal, regen, medica II then swiftcast clericstance and 2-3(or more depends) holies are enough to deal with most enemies.
The stun and the regen you put on a tank in taht time usually keep him full quite some time.

There is a reason a whm gets cleric stance and holy. The same reason a blm gets flare, or a drg gets blood for blood... or a tank gets hallowed ground... i have no clue why so many ppl just dont wanna make use of the few abilites they get.
For me it means more fun and variety... simlply casting cure, waiting for a free cure II and maybe regen.... well at least for me... that def. puts me to sleep lol

Variety? When mass pull holy as the only "right" way to play WHM? @@a

As a healer I go above and beyond my duties. I always make sure the dps have stoneskin at all times, I always make sure the tank has stoneskin before the next pull etc. I also DPS if the tank+dps are geared for it during mass pulls, and normal pulls. It makes me really irritated when I see a healer with full mana doing nothing but w/e I am not going to make a scene since the dps or tank can't also heal when doing their job. I do sometimes take it easy and relax if I need to by using my healer so I guess I can't blame them.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

snip

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My response is only to those who expect Healer HAS TO DPS, or being bad and to those who think that is FUNDAMENTAL, basic of the basics, for a Healer to contribute in Dams. I am all in for a Healer to do some DPS but on their own accord, just like you. And of course, the Healers nor I expect any commendation for them, so don't go throw that around. We all knows that.

And I believe even in the quest line, Guildmaster also mentioned the word "SOMETIMES" , not "ALL THE TIME" nor " Do DPS or you suck at your role", no.

Actually no, there are far more adolescent, loud mouthed, rude, arrogant, diptards in this game that think they can say whatever they want because no one can come into their room and punch them in the face like they deserve. If you are rude and offensive to another play no one should ever be surprised if that person lashes back at them or kicks them from the group. When players start treating people decently and not like a bunch of slaves there to take their abuse and beg for more master things will be a lot better.

My problem with this (and the classes we have right now in general) is that I play a healer to be a support class. Unfortunately there are no real "debuffs" or "buffs" that affect other's DPS, etc like Bard, RDM, and other classes did in FFXI. If I want to play DPS.... I'll play a DPS class I've got them all at 50. Now, in dungeons I do use Holy when I am comfortable with the tank and know that he's not going to drop dead as soon as I start casting. But I would much prefer to cast spells like flame spikes, damage boosts, paralyze, slow, haste, etc. on my allies and enemies to increase my party's DPS and decrease incoming damage from enemies than to actually DPS myself on a healer. It's just... my preferred style and class of play. I like crowd control, debuffing, buffing and those kinds of support abilities over raw damage.

Not DPSing on a Healer when you don't need to heal is like stopping DPS as a Tank when you've gotten hate. Your job does not stop when you've accomplished your role. A tank could easily just spam flash and never do any DPS, and everyone would agree that they are a shitty tank because of it. A healer that does not DPS when they have spare time is a bad healer.

If you want to never DPS on healer (or defend those that don't), fine. Just don't pretend that they are not bad at their jobs because of it.

Being good at your job means using every tool at your disposal at the time when it is most effective to do so. Standing idly when you could be doing something productive is never good, regardless of your "playstyle" or comfortability.

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Originally Posted by Kirana

A tank could easily just spam flash and never do any DPS

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Thanks for the idea, I only got 770MP but I could get a bard and ask kindly for ballad, if he refuses then votekick him for harassing me for my playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Kirana

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I disagree with you, sorry. Just because someone doesn't DPS they're not a bad healer. They're a bad DPSer. I would argue that a healer (a whm at least) who is still spamming Holy at less than 50% mana when shroud is on cooldown is probably not being very smart as well if they are in higher level content. You shouldn't call someone "bad" just because they're not in a rush to get out of the dungeon and you are.

The DPS tools on a healer are primarily given for solo content. I mean... can you imagine playing a healer and never being able to attack something, farm for mats / gil / etc? That would suck rather badly. Sure, you can use dps in groups, I do because I have nothing better to do, but you shouldn't *have* to (except in very specific situations like Odin, for example, where no damage is coming in and every point of damage counts to not wipe.)

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

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The problem with your argument is that Healer DPS is vitally important for raid progression. It is absolutely NOT only meant for solo leveling; that's just an absurd statement. Adding extra DPS is part of a healer's job in this game. It is not part of their "role" perse, but being "good" at your job involves doing everything in your power to improve the success of your group.

Can you beat content with a BRD that never uses songs? Yes. Are they a good BRD? No.

Can you beat content with a WAR that never applies Storm's Eye? Yes. Are they a good WAR? No.

Can you beat content with a WHM that never applies Aero? Yes. Are they a good WHM? No.

Can you beat content with a X that never uses Y? Yes. Are they a good X? No.

The moment you deny yourself the use of an ability that could potentially increase your success, you become worse at your job. You're not "good" at your job unless you're willing to make use of everything available to you.

Another major hole in your argument is that SE added accuracy to all endgame healer gear. The only purpose of that is to allow Healers to DPS more effectively in post-50 party content.

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Originally Posted by Kirana

The moment you deny yourself the use of an ability that could potentially increase your success, you become worse at your job. You're not "good" at your job unless you're willing to make use of everything available to you.

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This is something that always boggles people's minds when I explain my mentality regarding the roles and how I view them.

I hate to DPS most of the time. Occasionally I'll do black mage for giggles, (IE: Once a month if that.) and very rarely bard, but overall, I straight up dislike DPSing. But I'm also always trying to do as much damage as possible when healing. Not because I like DPSing, not because I like to see big numbers (I'm a scholar! Moar DoTs!) but because it makes me a much, much better player. It's not even "DPSing" persay, the way I explain it to people who are confused when I say I hate DPS but like to do damage as a scholar is that it's simply another tool in my toolkit. Just as sacred soil, succor, adlo, e4e, etc are tools, so too is my ability to efficiently weave in damage and allow my co-healer in raids to do the same. (And to just do it myself outside of raids, IE dungeons.)


Sure, if people want to be pedantic and say "Nobody died!" then the healer did their job. That's if you want to keep an incredibly narrow minded outlook and refuse to fully utilize a job. Yes, there may be extenuating circumstances such as horrendous latency, but on the whole I would very much consider it a part of a healer's "job" to do damage as much as possible.

That doesn't mean you have to do it 100% of the time and be perfect at it. But when I see healers who refuse to DPS because "they're a healer" it just irritates me. That is tantamount to saying "I have no desire to improve despite it helping my group immensely when I do so."


/babbling

Also @topic: Yes, people are way, way too sensitive in this game. Unfortunately with the consistent nerfs and overgearing, SE very much supports players not being good at their roles, let alone excelling at them.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs29/f/20...by_xAzumix.gif

Do, do doo.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah

We wonder are you ready to join us now?
Hands in the air we will show you how
Come and try
Caramell will be your guide
So come and move your hips sing
Oh-wa-ah-ah
Look at your two hips do it
La la la
You and me can sing this melody
Oa-oa-a ♪ ♪ ♪

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirana

Can you beat content with a BRD that never uses songs? Yes. Are they a good BRD? No.

Can you beat content with a WAR that never applies Storm's Eye? Yes. Are they a good WAR? No.

Can you beat content with a WHM that never applies Aero? Yes. Are they a good WHM? No.

Can you beat content with a X that never uses Y? Yes. Are they a good X? No.

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Do you know that when you put a standard to make things being good or bad can lead to ridiculous statement?

Have you tried to move closer to improve your latency? No.. Are you a bad player? Yes

Have you tried playing 24/7 so you can improve your character more? No.. Are you a bad player? Yes

The moment you refuse to do something that can improve your gameplay means you are a BAD BAD player.. There is a reason why SE put server somewhere so you can move closer to it and there is a reason why the game server is up like almost 24/7 so you can play it 24/7..

\o/ i love it being a very bad player..

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Do you know that when you put a standard to make things being good or bad can lead to ridiculous statement?

Have you tried to move closer to improve your latency? No.. Are you a bad player? Yes

Have you tried playing 24/7 so you can improve your character more? No.. Are you a bad player? Yes

The moment you refuse to do something that can improve your gameplay means you are a BAD BAD player.. There is a reason why SE put server somewhere so you can move closer to it and there is a reason why the game server is up like almost 24/7 so you can play it 24/7..

\o/ i love it being a very bad player..

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The very basis of your argument is taking a slippery slope... and making it worse, which is pretty hilarious.

People aren't saying that there aren't always technical ways you can improve your play.

But when people are refusing, within the confines, limitations, rules, and gameplay to do things that are better for the group, they are actively choosing to be a worse player overall. End of story.

Don't try to be a little drama queen to garner pity. It's really irritating, to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Zoralink

But when people are refusing, within the confines, limitations, rules, and gameplay to do things that are better for the group, they are actively choosing to be a worse player overall. End of story.

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It's not end of story when some specific people or group are the one who put up the standard of confines, limitations, rules, and gameplay and calling people who arent up to their own standard as simply being bad..

Dont try to put up standard despite when you are part of the community, that doesnt make you the sole voice of the community.. For all i know you're encountering randoms, heck if people put up standards on internal group, that's their business.. Respect the randoms like you should know their preference..

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

~snip~

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This isn't a standards thing. It's very, very much an objective thing. If someone is capable of doing more with their job and they actively refuse to do so, they are a worse player than someone who chooses to take advantage of those moments.

End of story.

There is no 'set of standards' for this, as it's very much obvious when it happens.

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Dont try to put up standard despite when you are part of the community, that doesnt make you the sole voice of the community.. For all i know you're encountering randoms, heck if people put up standards on internal group, that's their business.. Respect the randoms like you should know their preference..

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What are you even saying here? It's not like I'm going around going "OMG NUB" every time I see a healer not DPS, but on the flip side it's also well within my rights to be mildly annoyed if they refuse to DPS while not healing for 10+ seconds.

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Originally Posted by Zoralink

If someone is capable of doing more with their job and they actively refuse to do so, they are a worse player than someone who chooses to take advantage of those moments

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Question to you: How do you know if someone is capable of doing more with their jobs when it is your first time as well as maybe the only time you have a chance to play with them? Have you ever questioned yourself that? Sure the job is capable more of just for healing but to effectively use those potential to its fullest, not everyone can do the same, you know?

It is just like: There is CEO out there who earns million dollars every minute, they are Human right? And so that proves Human is capable of earning million dollars every minute. You are also Human right? Then we should assume you are capable of earning million dollars every minute, and since you actively refuse to earn million dollars every minute for as long as you live , you are the worse human than someone who chooses to take advantage of their moments??? :confused::confused: And with that being said, it is also well within my rights to be mildly annoyed if you refuse to earn million dollars every minute for the last X years you have been living and for many years to come???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Seems legit to me.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

Question to you: How do you know if someone is capable of doing more with their jobs.

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Let's take the general and pull this conversation back to the specific.

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Originally Posted by lxChrisxl

but they stood there even when nobody needed healing. . . .

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In this scenario, that is the answer to your question. Because the healer was standing around doing nothing.

Was Chris (OP) trying to kick the healer for underperforming? NO. He was kicked, for asking the WHM to use a Damage based ability. Not even rude or sarcastically.

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Originally Posted by Kirana

Can you beat content with a X that never uses Y? Yes. Are they a good X? No

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When dragoon = x and feint = y, your statement is FALSE <3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Do you know that when you put a standard to make things being good or bad can lead to ridiculous statement?

Have you tried to move closer to improve your latency? No.. Are you a bad player? Yes

Have you tried playing 24/7 so you can improve your character more? No.. Are you a bad player? Yes

The moment you refuse to do something that can improve your gameplay means you are a BAD BAD player.. There is a reason why SE put server somewhere so you can move closer to it and there is a reason why the game server is up like almost 24/7 so you can play it 24/7..

\o/ i love it being a very bad player..

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I guess the following also applies:

*I'm bad at listening to music because I can't read music.

*I'm bad at foreign languages because I don't know them all.

*I'm a bad milk drinker because I get a milk mustache.

These are just ridiculous analogies. You are either a bad troll or a shining example of people being "overly sensitive" or "overly dramatic" (ya know the title of the thread).

Someone still have some popcorn left?

Why do you care so much that a bunch of strangers kicked you out of a dungeon you'll run hundreds of times anyway that you had to open a thread about it? It's the internet, stop being so sensitive.

When a healer stands around and doing nothing even though nobody is in need of healing, being lazy is one of the possibility. However, there are also other possible outcomes as well:

1/He is not confident or skilled enough to perform multi-tasking.
2/He does not trust his tank or DPS because he never play with them before or there were some events occurred within the run that led him to think that way.
3/He is suffering from some sort of advantages, be it disability, slow reaction.
4/He is a high ping user.
5/He is not opened for being blamed as bad/suck healer in the case of the whole pt die because lack of healing.Things like "OMG, do your job!!!!", "You noob/scrub healer". So he take the safest route by just focus on healing and fulfil his job.

Out of these 6 I listed being lazy on purpose is but 1 of many many more reasons why he chose not to DPS. And the same question again: "How do you know what he is capable of?" or on this case "How does OP know what his healer is capable of even though he never meet and play with him before?"

Was he trying to kick the Healer whom he thought of was underperformng? No
Was he trying to assume that the Healer was more capable of multi-tasking? Yes

I personally won't click "Vote to kick" Jude because of the assumption from anyone from the party, even though it mays be wrong. However, if he tries to push that false assumption to anyone in the party and make a big deal out of it, I will click "Vote to kick"

With the so-called standard of a healer nowaday requires one has to multi-tasking, or else suck, the moment one mention a word/idea about anything that could lead to that so-called standard, in Op case Holy, it could easily tick someone off their mind. Being short also does not do any justice to his statement either, his comment can be taken for both ways. Unfortunately for him, the took it negatively, hence a kick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LionKing

Question to you: How do you know if someone is capable of doing more with their jobs when it is your first time as well as maybe the only time you have a chance to play with them? Have you ever questioned yourself that? Sure the job is capable more of just for healing but to effectively use those potential to its fullest, not everyone can do the same, you know?

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Nothing you just said rebukes anything I said. If someone is incapable, then they are objectively a worse player than someone who is capable. It doesn't magically make it all sunshine and rainbows because the poor white mage is struggling to understand that regen is an amazing heal and they can safely holy during the massive downtime as the tank pops sentinel.

I'll also point you to this.

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Originally Posted by Zoralink

It's not like I'm going around going "OMG NUB" every time I see a healer not DPS, but on the flip side it's also well within my rights to be mildly annoyed if they refuse to DPS while not healing for 10+ seconds.

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And sigh. Here we go. Again.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

When a healer stands around and doing nothing even though nobody is in need of healing, being lazy is one of the possibility. However, there are also other possible outcomes as well:

1/He is not confident or skilled enough to perform multi-tasking.

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Then they are not a good player or are still learning the job. Part of learning the job is learning how to weave in some damage.

Quote:

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2/He does not trust his tank or DPS because he never play with them before or there were some events occurred within the run that led him to think that way.

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Part of being a healer is learning to read your party and their capabilities. You can generally figure this out within the first pull or two.

Quote:

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3/He is suffering from some sort of advantages, be it disability, slow reaction.

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I don't quite buy that every healer who sits there staring into the sunset while occasionally casting a regen or a cure II on the tank is disabled.

Quote:

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4/He is a high ping user.

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Even at high pings you can weave in more damage, unless you're talking something absolutely obscene, such as 400+ ping.

Quote:

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5/He is not opened for being blamed as bad/suck healer in the case of the whole pt die because lack of healing.Things like "OMG, do your job!!!!", "You noob/scrub healer". So he take the safest route by just focus on healing and fulfil his job.

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See point one.

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Out of these 6 I listed being lazy on purpose is but 1 of many many more reasons why he chose not to DPS. And the same question again: "How do you know what he is capable of?"

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Everyone can learn to be a better player. Many choose not to. That is very much an aspect of laziness/fear of the unknown.

EDIT: You added something:

Quote:

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or on this case "How does OP know what his healer is capable of even though he never meet and play with him before?"

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Because people can usually recognize when there are moments to deal damage as a healer even if they are not healing?

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Originally Posted by LionKing

snip

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I usually choose to stand around healing in my dungeon runs that don't require much healing cuz I'm lazy. No shame here lol. I can heal and DPS with holy no problem but it depends on my mood. Sometimes I really don't feel up to it so I don't. If someone tries to make me do it they get ignored. If I get kicked from the party cuz I'm not DPSing then okay lol.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

When dragoon = x and feint = y, your statement is FALSE <3

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This seems fun, I want to play as well:

When MNk=X and Y = Haymarker/Featherfoot/One Ilm punch, your statement is false :)

1/ When someone is still learning the jobs, especially something that is not their first priority to do, you don't call them horrible or suck at the role. Though it is far from the truth. The moment they see a Healer not DPSing, the jump right into conclusion that noob/scrub or be annoyed . Give them tips/advice, not some knee-jerk comments like most of the people I have exp so far.

2/Trust or no trust, read the party is capable or not, to DPS or to not DPS, it is their own call. It is not the decision for anyone in the party but him. It is still far from the truth. Because there are Healer out there who can multi-tasking, it means it is a standard for any Healer to multi-tasking which is false. What is the point of having the ability to make decision when people tell you what to do, in most cases, DPS.

3/Are you for certain that they won't suffer from any disadvantages? The ones I listed is just two of so many medical/physical conditions that one could suffer from. I can not prove they are and you have no proof to say otherwise. It would do us all wise to not assume everyone is the same for we are not, as a matter of fact.

4/ Have you ever played any class with 400 ping before? The struggle and rubber banding is real. So unless you are experienced yourself, your opinion is invalid regarding the matter.

P/S At this point, I feel like I am just repeating myself over and over. Therefore, I will end here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zoralink

There is no 'set of standards' for this, as it's very much obvious when it happens.
But on the flip side it's also well within my rights to be mildly annoyed if they refuse to DPS while not healing for 10+ seconds.

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How can you call this thing being objective when you put up a standard on it which is pretty much subjective to you.. Read as not healing for 10+seconds.. Others may have it 12s, 5s or prolly doesnt even bother when a specific job do a specific thing? I'm not gonna say that you're wrong when saying people who dont try are worse player overall.. It's true.. But never call it as something being objective and.. Point is.. Something that's bad for you wont be bad to others..

For me personally i wouldnt call playstyle preference as being bad.. People clear a content and without using an x or a y why bother calling them bad to see every nook and cranny mistake they have made?

OP nailed it on the head. There are WAY too many overly sensitive people playing this game.

Exhibit A: Everyone in this thread butthurt by the notion that anyone, anywhere could possibly suggest a healer DPS at all.

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

I guess the following also applies:

*I'm bad at listening to music because I can't read music.

*I'm bad at foreign languages because I don't know them all.

*I'm a bad milk drinker because I get a milk mustache.

These are just ridiculous analogies. You are either a bad troll or a shining example of people being "overly sensitive" or "overly dramatic" (ya know the title of the thread).

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I always think that the forum is where over sensitive people go to. Am i wrong?
Hence how the OP started this topic after being kicked..
Shrug.. Didnt i say that i'd just make a good/bad ridiculous statement?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zoralink

I don't quite buy that every healer who sits there staring into the sunset while occasionally casting a regen or a cure II on the tank is disabled.

Even at high pings you can weave in more damage, unless you're talking something absolutely obscene, such as 400+ ping.

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At times i have a cat who would jump on top of my laptop and trying to paw my nose. So i need to focus on and dodge 2 attacks at once.. At times i'm just lazy.. At times i'm just sleepy, on another times i'm eating while healing.. At times i'm watching tv as well.. It really depends on the mood.. Ya know.. Would you just call me bad or would address it as there are times i'm being bad? Since i dpsing too as healer.. Contents are cleared most of the times and i never got kicked..

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Didnt i say that i'd just make a good/bad ridiculous statement?

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Ya, I took your statement as being facetious not malicious. However, it does read as being smugly sarcastic to the OP.

And also:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

*I'm a bad milk drinker because I get a milk mustache.

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PRO L33TS USE STRAWS YOU NOOB!!!:p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zoralink

What are you even saying here? It's not like I'm going around going "OMG NUB" every time I see a healer not DPS, but on the flip side it's also well within my rights to be mildly annoyed if they refuse to DPS while not healing for 10+ seconds.

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There are plenty of legitimately good reasons not to DPS in a variety of content, not least of all high spike damage on certain mobs which can catch you unprepared if you're stuck in cleric stance. On the whole, I think most healers are fine throwing out a bit of damage here and there, but to expect it as the norm is just silly.

Hot-swapping between clerics stance takes practice, and I've seen plenty of new healers get 'stuck' in clerics because they're desperately throwing out cures which lack in potency to keep up with unexpected damage and don't dare take the time to swap out for fear of losing the tank. Or worse, those who tried to swap out but due to lag ended up re-activating clerics so have to wait for the recast to tick down to disable it.

As long as the healer does their primary job of keeping everyone alive, all is fine. If they add damage, that's a bonus, but I'm not going to expect it from everyone and nor should anyone.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

.

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And all of this can easily be avoided and ignored by simply knowing the content. So assuming you aren't a brand new healer, and have completed the dungeon a few times before, you should probably know these things and it would be a little considerate if at the times when you have downtime, contribute to the DPS.

Can I also assume the otherwise, Healer is new and inexperienced to the content? I can not prove it nor you can prove my assumption is wrong. So don't expect anything with pure assumption is a wise idea.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

...At times i'm just lazy.. At times i'm just sleepy, on another times i'm eating while healing.. At times i'm watching tv as well.. It really depends on the mood.. Ya know.. Would you just call me bad or would address it as there are times i'm being bad? Since i dpsing too as healer.. Contents are cleared most of the times and i never got kicked..

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This is the honest truth of it right here. Most healers in these dungeons that don't dps are just lazy. They are looking to get their roulette done while semi afk. Pressing a button to heal every once in a while while doing something else.

Medica 2 and Regen. Basically can get away with only having these two skills on your bar for a lot of things. They also cost quite a good amount of MP so you look like you doin stuff. Hue.

maybe someone should rename the name of the thread or move to healer section already ,because this kinda completely off topic. :)

I don't think this going to end anytime soon 100 people 100 thought , 100 man 100 reason.
no one going to win in here :( just play the way you usually play and successful with , they not going to change the way they play because someone told them to ,until they face the trouble that force them to change it.