o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

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Originally Posted by Snuf

I'm probably one of the worst people to ask about these changes, because I actually hate the crafting system as it is now. I can very much appreciate the inclusion of many parts into the final piece and how crafting a piece of armour may require skills in leatherworking and weaving as well.

But this makes things unnecessarily complex for those of us who just want to level one craft and have an easy time crafting the gear we want and not paying through the nose in terms of gil in the market wards. So, personally, I see this as a great change to make the crafting system much more friendly.

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This seems to be the direction that SE is heading.

Crafting is a side-task for combat classes to make themselves gear.

That is, crafting is NOT an interesting and involved profession of its own. If this is the direction of the game, so-be-it. Let's just have it spelled out and in the open.

......Shut up.

the problem with the current crafting system is that i would rather spend 100k on a piece of cloth armor than spend 30min gathering all the necessary mats to make the 30 things to make the one piece of armor...fuck everything about that.

also, if you have a bunch of stuff at 50 or are grinding a bunch of different crafts, the number of mats you have is pretty absurd.

all of the outlined changes will induce crafters to start making stuff again. as it stands i can't be bothered to make gear for myself, let alone other people.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

the problem with the current crafting system is that i would rather spend 100k on a piece of cloth armor than spend 30min gathering all the necessary mats to make the 30 things to make the one piece of armor...fuck everything about that.

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and i'd rather buy my exp from a NPC then go out and kill mobs ^^

ya, I reallly don't understand why they would remove the requirement of treatsie and workshops for new recipes, is it really a hard concept to understand? I mean what's the point of of even investing in crafting GM if these new set of recipes aren't even going to make use of those concepts.

As for removing the requirement of parts they haven't even mentioned how they plan to adjust abilities that were enhanced with parts. I'm quite disappointed with what they have proposed I don't understand why they couldn't simply revise parts to be more universal, perhaps Lauan handles work for weapon 1-10, Ash handle 11-20, Pine handle, Oak handle and Teak handle.

I can understand abolishing the secondary skill requirement since that can be quite annoying when you consider how long it takes to level a craft basically you'll need to invest x hours just to craft a single item. It would make more sense if the secondary craft requirement could be fulfilled with this tough concept called teamwork. I don't understand why SE seems to be afraid of even attempting to have team based land/hand concepts. It's like they assume they are soro players only.

I seriously have to ask, where the heck does a copper ingot come from when they introduced the new recipe lol. If I were to revise the recipe I would condense it to
1 hempen doublet pattern
1 pair of sheepskin shoulder guards
1 sheep leather strap
1 spindle of hempen yarn

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It just feels like they are trying to eliminate the concept of working with your fellow crafter. The whole idea of the craft system that was released is you would seek out those making the parts you needed for your recipe. What the team doesn't understand is the reason why it's tough is cause there's a lack of a universal concept, it's hard for crafters to hold onto parts because of the stress it puts on the inventory. As noted a simple idea would be to just make it so there's a universal concept rather then unique for each item.

Another thing I disapprove of greatly is the downright blunt behavior of saying oh ya btw if you had some items stocked up they are going to be useless. Why do they have to be useless, there's a simple and easy way to deal with it and I seriously doubt it'll take a lot of time to deal with.

If I'm correct I think there are 65 grips in the game and 19 butts. With my above idea it would easily condense it down to 5 from 84. I don't think they realize that the issue is that people can't craft it but the fact it just eats up space, and that's not even including chances at HQ, with 5 at least the HQ stress would be 20, however with the concept now the max threat on your inventory if you have every item is 336.

I haven't seen the other responses but I do hope that this flurry of post actually agrees with the bad idea of dumbing it down this much when there really are more logical ways to go about it. Like I can seriously understand the problem with it now but what's the point of making it this dumb.

As for weapon weapon heads that's easy enough. Universal sheets that are easily synergized to match the shape and mold of the recipe in process. Perhaps what they could do then is this. You have 5 universal sheets and then the base weapon mold. The weapon mold would include Axe mold, Dagger/sword, spear mold. For axe mold, there would be Labrys mold, War axe mold, Bhuj mold, Bill mold, Bardiche mold, and Bane mold,
so you have 5 universal sheets and 6 molds. As it stands now for axe there are 13 head piece so with the propose idea that would cut the current needed heads in half. Now since the handles and butts were condensed from 84 to 5 we cut the heads from 91 to 5. With those focused on making axes they would need a minimum of 16 inventory to carry the parts.

It just feels like they keep stripping more and more off from the game rather then attempting to work around it. I really don't know how these new recipes along with the old ones will pan out and the fact they mentioned nothing about abilities that are better when synthing with parts receiving adjustments is a tad concerning.

If I had to say one positive thing about the changes of synthing it would be they are going to make dyeing easier. but really how sad is it to say that upon looking at all the info in place the only good thing that you see from it is the fact they'll be making dyeing your clothes easier.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

This seems to be the direction that SE is heading.

Crafting is a side-task for combat classes to make themselves gear.

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Yes and no. I like both. I love the crafting here versus XI and it's a bit more involved then Aion which I hear it's crafting system is just like every other MMO. Add parts click go and make X amount based off how much crap you put in for materials. I don't want that either; I like the mini-game of it.

I remember the biggest draw SE was putting on XIV was that it was for Hardcore players and casual players alike. No offense but, the original (launch) version of the crafting system was NOT casual friendly. They simplified it some in the aspect of the menu. THANK THE GODS! But the reasoning of needing such a high rank to make one lousy part of a lower ranked piece was and still is and still has not been explained so I can't "feel" the same animosity toward this change some of you do.

Best Idea Ever. They said it would be possible to play the whole game as any one class and that turned out to be untrue under the old system. I was going to just be a armorer but then it turned out I couldnt just be armorer. I had to know alchemy, leather, black, and gold also if I was gonna rank armor. I had completely written off crafting after I got most of my ranks up to 20. Now I am excited about coming back to it.

Good job Yoshi. Keep on streamlining and making the game fun and not an exercise in busywork. Ignore the selfish children who shoot things down because they are mad they walked through the desert before you put in a road.

Seriously this is a great change. I am a crafter, and i approve these changes. I do DOL as well, and with the materia system coming how is DOL going to die!? You guys are just QQing over a very flawed system from the start. If you want realism go do some daily activities. This is a game last i checked, and i want to escape reality not live it in a game. I am not going to give any type of example to validate my statment, many have already done as much. Yet, "ESK" Your defending your statment with so much conviction your straying away from the bigger problem at hand. The community as a whole, not as a individual. I agree that its a bit extreme, but honestly the old system vs the new is already dynamic in itself. I favor having to use lets mats to get to the finished product. That is less of a timesink in regards to that step, and it allows you to have more time to rank up other important crafts you might need in the short window of time you might have to play. This is directly going to affect the hardcore player base. The casual players will always welcome these additons since they have a concept of reality outside of this game. You hardcore players im sure do as well, but doesnt seem that way when you QQ over every single major change that will impact the game, and as you say "Dumb it down". Thats my 2cents, sorry to be so harsh as i usually am not. I am just so tired of people saying "WE WANT CHANGE" Then the second you get that change you disect every single aspect of the change to make it look like its a bad thing. Wake up people, some of us enjoy change, in fact if we never had change in this world. We would still be cavemen. I commend your efforts esk, but the reality is this change was coming and we all knew that already. Now all you can do is embrace the changes, and see the good thats coming from this. Try to be optimstic about the reality thats coming to pass. Might make it easier for you to sleep at night.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

the problem with the current crafting system is that i would rather spend 100k on a piece of cloth armor than spend 30min gathering all the necessary mats to make the 30 things to make the one piece of armor...fuck everything about that.

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Originally Posted by Okiura

and i'd rather buy my exp from a NPC then go out and kill mobs ^^

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Okiura I literally busted out laughing at your reply! xD

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Originally Posted by Okiura

and i'd rather buy my exp from a NPC then go out and kill mobs ^^

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your point?

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Okiura I literally busted out laughing at your reply! xD

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just wait you see it come true, if this is the way the game is headding ^^

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Ok, I removed the other stuff just because while detailed and informative, I didn't want to flood your section and mine as then next War and Peace. lol So, I understnad the realism behind what needed to be done in order to create that item and SOOO many more in the game and thought it WAS cool. The problem with that system is what so many others have explained, the need for a Rank to create one of those pieces may have been to high when compared to the piece itself OR the other jobs included in making the piece. THAT makes no sense. If it's a Rank 30 crafting (Wvr) piece ( I don't really know just giving an example) then the rest of the sub jobs should be that same rank. Otherwise it's NOT really a Rnk 30 piece because you need R46 Bsm in order to make something on it. Therefore it should be R46 as that is the next highest and needed Rank to make the whole damn thing work. Because without your Bsm being close to 46, you can't complete it so why tease someone and get them excited to finally make that epic piece only to be slapped and HA HAAAA thrown in your face? Does that make sense?

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That completely makes sense, and I 100% agree that it needed to be adjusted. I can even go you one better. Here's an example of a completely ridiculous recipe that ABSOLUTELY needed to be changed.

White Skillet:
Armorer 25 (appr) to create
White Skillet is a rank 17 CUL mainhand tool (yes seventeen)
Ingredients:
Iron Plate (to make the pan)
Tin Ingot (to make the handle)
White Enamel (inside of pan)
Blue Enamel (outside of pan)

It makes a pretty-looking pan. The ARM rank might be too high, considering it's 8 ranks above the use rank. But, here is the realy problem: white enamel.

White stainsand only can be obtained from a grade five quarry point in Coerthas. There is EXACTLY one quarry point in the entire world that you can get it from. This means pretty much a rank35+ miner to get the stainsand. Plus it's a rare drop. Plus, the cave is guarded by r45+ gigantoads and r40+ ghosts. Then once you have the stainsand, it's a rank 45 ALC synth to make the white enamel. I was lucky enough to get two stainsands, because my r48 ALC LSmate blew up the first one.

This recipe is clearly broken. The difficulty involved clearly puts the price far beyond what a typical rank 17 CUL should be expected to pay.

However, instead of just adjusting the recipes, they are massively wholesale reducing the to the simplest of all existing recipes. Recipes like Walnut Masks, or Oak Canes will now be every recipe. Some recipes were too easy to acquire materials for, and the result was too good ([item]Jade Crook[/item], for example). Instead of balancing it out so that lower rank recipes were simpler, and the higher rank items (that needed it) were more complex, every recipe in the game seems to be drastically simplified.

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Originally Posted by Airget

If I had to say one positive thing about the changes of synthing it would be they are going to make dyeing easier. but really how sad is it to say that upon looking at all the info in place the only good thing that you see from it is the fact they'll be making dyeing your clothes easier.

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Out of ALL of this change, this is the one thing I could care less about. Coloring your gear is novelty! Just like a stupid jump button. -.-

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Originally Posted by Cursive

your point?

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my point was crafting should be a skill you have to work at, not somting thet you can do in 5 mins, i.e. killing mobs for exp vs buying it from a npc.

The "realistic" thing sounds really dumb.
This a game, you're going to ride a goddamn chicken.
Want a more realistic craft system? Go make yourself a chair.

The crafting system is such a time consuming and complex system.
Most casual players suffer from it.

And no one plays a game for its crafting system. Don't be silly. lol
Yea, the actual system was pretty realistic, i'm sure some people love to look at equipments and wonder how it was made.
But most people dont give a ****. We want to be able to craft with less than 100 steps, or wasting time in the wards searching for items, or asking 10 different people to make you what you need.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Crafting is a side-task for combat classes to make themselves gear.

That is, crafting is NOT an interesting and involved profession of its own. If this is the direction of the game, so-be-it. Let's just have it spelled out and in the open.

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If they don't want to treat DOH, DOL as a real class, then don't make it looks like one at the beginning of the game. What a waste of time. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

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Originally Posted by Okiura

my point was crafting should be a skill you have to work at, not somting thet you can do in 5 mins, i.e. killing mobs for exp vs buying it from a npc.

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look at my classes ranked. i've spent more than enough time crafting. my original points stands. if i need some random piece of gear for myself i'd rather buy it for 100k from the wards than spend 30min making it. 30min for once piece of gear is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

The "realistic" thing sounds really dumb.
This a game, you're going to ride a goddamn chicken.
Want a more realistic craft system? Go make yourself a chair.

The crafting system is such a time consuming and complex system.
Most casual players suffer from it.

And no one plays a game for its crafting system. Don't be silly. lol
Yea, the actual system was pretty realistic, i'm sure some people love to look at equipments and wonder how it was made.
But most people dont give a ****. We want to be able to craft with less than 100 steps, or wasting time in the wards searching for items, or asking 10 different people to make you what you need.

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Exactly. When I make a leather harness I'm not sitting there inspecting it and marvelling over how each piece of material I put in had a purpose. I just want to make the goddamn gear and possibly HQ it, and then either throw it up in my bazaar or give it to the person that asked for it.

You're putting way too much thought into making an item in a fantasy game.

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Originally Posted by Okiura

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the problem with the current crafting system is that i would rather spend 100k on a piece of cloth armor than spend 30min gathering all the necessary mats to make the 30 things to make the one piece of armor...fuck everything about that.

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and i'd rather buy my exp from a NPC then go out and kill mobs ^^

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And then the next step is:

I'd rather pay $10 to get 100k xp in game.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

That completely makes sense, and I 100% agree that it needed to be adjusted. I can even go you one better. Here's an example of a completely ridiculous recipe that ABSOLUTELY needed to be changed.

White Skillet:
Armorer 25 (appr) to create
White Skillet is a rank 17 CUL mainhand tool (yes seventeen)
Ingredients:
Iron Plate (to make the pan)
Tin Ingot (to make the handle)
White Enamel (inside of pan)
Blue Enamel (outside of pan)

It makes a pretty-looking pan. The ARM rank might be too high, considering it's 8 ranks above the use rank. But, here is the realy problem: white enamel.

White stainsand only can be obtained from a grade five quarry point in Coerthas. There is EXACTLY one quarry point in the entire world that you can get it from. This means pretty much a rank35+ miner to get the stainsand. Plus it's a rare drop. Plus, the cave is guarded by r45+ gigantoads and r40+ ghosts. Then once you have the stainsand, it's a rank 45 ALC synth to make the white enamel. I was lucky enough to get two stainsands, because my r48 ALC LSmate blew up the first one.

This recipe is clearly broken. The difficulty involved clearly puts the price far beyond what a typical rank 17 CUL should be expected to pay.

However, instead of just adjusting the recipes, they are massively wholesale reducing the to the simplest of all existing recipes. Recipes like Walnut Masks, or Oak Canes will now be every recipe. Some recipes were too easy to acquire materials for, and the result was too good ([item]Jade Crook[/item], for example). Instead of balancing it out so that lower rank recipes were simpler, and the higher rank items (that needed it) were more complex, every recipe in the game seems to be drastically simplified.

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Agree. But apparently then either people felt that this was the direction SE needed to take OR SE misunderstood what was being reqeusted. I can't answer that only the Dev(s) or Yoshi can. Personally it still sounds ridiculous the things that need to be done in order to make certain items such as the one you used as an example and that's been my quandry since OB. I would be excited because I was ranking up Wvr to make a cowl only to find out... oh sh*t, I need to be rank WHAT to make that sleeve?! O.o Wtf?

Alot of this is why I didn't take to crafting that much in XI. I reached a really low crafter level in certain crafts just to make easy crap that sold like gang busters on the AH. I made decent gil but the rest was way to annoying and nowhere NEAR fun. I felt different with XIV's system until the above mentioned happened.

The funny part is not one of these changes make crafting easier to rank up, which has always been the main complaint. In fact it will make it harder to rank up since you won't be able to skill up your BSM on silver javelin heads or whatever once those recipes are removed.

I don't understand how you people can advocate these changes when they literally tore guilds out of crafting.. I mean, Guilds were literally invented for crafting. Now they serve no purpose at all. Yes, the recipes needed to be simplified, but not ALL of the recipes needed to be simplified. They certainly didn't need to hack out special training and facilities. And as for Cross classing, yes it was a pain when they listed a level 30 crp craft and it had a level 50 bsm requirement, but they didn't need to remove ALL of the cross classing. They could have simply lowered the required levels. Sub Class should always be lower than primary class. And yes that means you can't make Everythign with one Craft, but it doesnt force you to do multiple classes.

SE need to:

Announce a Full Plan for the Future of Crafting
-or-
Not implement these changes

It's not fair to anyone "Hardcore" or "Casual", it only perpetuates the idea of a mindless boring craft grinding world.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

look at my classes ranked. i've spent more than enough time crafting. my original points stands. if i need some random piece of gear for myself i'd rather buy it for 100k from the wards than spend 30min making it. 30min for once piece of gear is ridiculous.

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look at my orignal post, whats dumb is not the system or the mats needed to make the gear it's the levels of this mats, lvl 20 crafts needing mats that can only be made at lvl 40 of the same caft that is dumb and the reason gear is so scarse, expencive. sort this and gear will be avalible at a resonable price w/o affecting the current crafting system, making everyone happy.

Edit: quoted the wrong part of you post be wth .

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Originally Posted by Snuf

I'm probably one of the worst people to ask about these changes, because I actually hate the crafting system as it is now. I can very much appreciate the inclusion of many parts into the final piece and how crafting a piece of armour may require skills in leatherworking and weaving as well.

But this makes things unnecessarily complex for those of us who just want to level one craft and have an easy time crafting the gear we want and not paying through the nose in terms of gil in the market wards. So, personally, I see this as a great change to make the crafting system much more friendly.

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If you don't like crafting just don't do it.
IMHO the crasting system was just PERFECT the way it was before:
getting gils with DoW/DoM was easy as hell, tho the pricies for materials was quite high, so an only combat player would end up with lots of money, while a crafter at his first r50 DoH would be... quite poor >.>
So the average situation was that those who enjoy only fighting had all the money they wanted to buy anything they wanted, those enjoying crafting would have a complex and engaging system and a way to earn money AFTER they invested them skilling up. (and I really don't get all the hate against crafter's prices, we invested MILLIONS to skill up while the fighters were saving them, i remember when i was carpenter 35ish all of my LS mates had about 20 millions while I had barely 1, i guess at one point we deserve an income too...)

The point is that if you wanted a gear but you don't like crafting, you could still get it with a system that encouraged the interaction between players with different play styles. Why dumbing it down with a system where anyone can have everything without effort? It goes against anyone's interest, because if you don't like crafting you still won't like it if it gets simplified, but I doubt that those who enjoyed it the "hard way" will still bother doing it since there won't be the same income, so NOW you'll be obliged to craft.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

look at my classes ranked. i've spent more than enough time crafting. my original points stands. if i need some random piece of gear for myself i'd rather buy it for 100k from the wards than spend 30min making it. 30min for once piece of gear is ridiculous.

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That is where Crafting will become a reason to do. There are a lot of people willing to spend hours in Gathering and making the Parts to get a good Product in the End to get Gil out of it, which can be spend on other Things. IF everyone can do it very quick, there will be no reason to gather anymore for me, there will be no reason to put things up for a decent amount of Gil, there will be no reason to rank up any subclasses if i just want to do BSM, there will be no reason to spend hours on getting a HQ and so on and so on...

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I don't understand how you people can advocate these changes when they literally tore guilds out of crafting.. I mean, Guilds were literally invented for crafting. Now they serve no purpose at all.

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Exactly, they may as well remove the guilds from the cities and fill the empty rooms with plants.

I'm expecting the same to be done with battle guilds too, all those STR > INT etc. skills will probably be removed. You heard it here first.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

The "realistic" thing sounds really dumb.
This a game, you're going to ride a goddamn chicken.
Want a more realistic craft system? Go make yourself a chair.

The crafting system is such a time consuming and complex system.
Most casual players suffer from it.

And no one plays a game for its crafting system. Don't be silly. lol
Yea, the actual system was pretty realistic, i'm sure some people love to look at equipments and wonder how it was made.
But most people dont give a ****. We want to be able to craft with less than 100 steps, or wasting time in the wards searching for items, or asking 10 different people to make you what you need.

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I like this guy a lot.

How is the game suppose to improve when people keep saying shit like "if you don't like, don't do it?"

The goal of the game should be trying to get everyone to enjoy EVERY aspect of the game.

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Originally Posted by Okiura

look at my orignal post, whats dub is not the system or the mats needed to make the gear it's the levels of this mats, lvl 20 crafts needing mats that can only be made at lvl 40 of the same caft that is dumb and the reason gear is so scarse, expencive. sire thisn and gear will be avalible at a resonable price w/o affecting the current crafting system, making everyone happy.

Edit: quoted the wrong part of you post be wth .

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No one is arguing that the synths needed to be adjusted. Rank 20 synths should use parts that are also at (or very close to) rank 20. But this change goes far beyond that, based on their description.

Also, I do NOT believe that this change will make gear appear at reasonable prices in the wards. Prices in the wards are the way they are because of supply/demand, and limited bazaar space within which to sell items (20 bazaar slots mean I have to carefully choose what items I list to sell). I great many changes are required for low-rank gear to become available, the least of which is this change to the recipe system.

oh yay, remove something that makes sense because of whiners -.- we dont all want it easy SE! you got it right making battle more challenging, dont turn this game into wow, next archers wont even need any arrows or suttin >.>

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Originally Posted by Okiura

look at my orignal post, whats dumb is not the system or the mats needed to make the gear it's the levels of this mats, lvl 20 crafts needing mats that can only be made at lvl 40 of the same caft that is dumb and the reason gear is so scarse, expencive. sort this and gear will be avalible at a resonable price w/o affecting the current crafting system, making everyone happy.

Edit: quoted the wrong part of you post be wth .

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i agree with what you are saying, but that doesn't address my criticism of the current system.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Exactly, they may as well remove the guilds from the cities and fill the empty rooms with plants.

I'm expecting the same to be done with battle guilds too, all those STR > INT etc. skills will probably be removed. You heard it here first.

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and from the Editor 2nd ^^, this is a valid point though crafts = classes no guild there will need to = not battle guilds either

I'm glad to see they're doing something with the full on retard recipes, but that won't change the fact that crafting is still Mashing Enter: The Game.

pic related, the greatest ff14 crafter of our time
http://i.imgur.com/IG3Xf.jpg

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Originally Posted by Amineri

No one is arguing that the synths needed to be adjusted. Rank 20 synths should use parts that are also at (or very close to) rank 20. But this change goes far beyond that, based on their description.

Also, I do NOT believe that this change will make gear appear at reasonable prices in the wards. Prices in the wards are the way they are because of supply/demand, and limited bazaar space within which to sell items (20 bazaar slots mean I have to carefully choose what items I list to sell). I great many changes are required for low-rank gear to become available, the least of which is this change to the recipe system.

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while this is true, if the finished product synths are quicker to complete, i would guess prices would go down because there is less time involved in the process allowing for more pieces to be made in the same time frame. this is probably an assumption. most people, myself included, still wouldn't bother trying to craft lower ranked gear for profit.

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

I'm glad to see they're doing something with the full on retard recipes, but that won't change the fact that crafting is still Mashing Enter: The Game.

pic related, the greatest ff14 crafter of our time
http://i.imgur.com/IG3Xf.jpg

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LOLOLMFAO! (for the greatest crafter) LOL classic. Nice job Mantastic :D

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Originally Posted by Cursive

i agree with what you are saying, but that doesn't address my criticism of the current system.

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in a way i think it does... you don't want to gather the bolls to make the colth to make the sleves, but atm you have too! fix the mat lvl and lower lvl ppl can make them to skill up you buy them cheep and don't have to spend 30 gathering to make 1 item.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

How is the game suppose to improve when people keep saying shit like "if you don't like, don't do it?"

The goal of the game should be trying to get everyone to enjoy EVERY aspect of the game.

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I believe, sir, that the conflict arises from motives. You say "get everyone to enjoy every aspect of the game".

1. There are those that craft because they enjoy the activity of crafting. Making gil, or making use of their own products is secondary.
   
2. There are those that craft because they want the gear that they themselves can make. The activity of crafting is unappealing, since combat/raids would be more fun.
   
3. There are those that craft in order to make lots of gil. A form of achievement, I'd guess. The activity of crafting is unappealing merely a means to an end.

It looks to me like SE is attempting to improve enjoyment for category 2. Make crafting very simple, soon everyone will be making their own "everything they need", and the market ward problem will be solved -- because no one will need to buy or sell anything.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

If you don't like crafting just don't do it.
IMHO the crasting system was just PERFECT the way it was before:
getting gils with DoW/DoM was easy as hell, tho the pricies for materials was quite high, so an only combat player would end up with lots of money, while a crafter at his first r50 DoH would be... quite poor >.>
So the average situation was that those who enjoy only fighting had all the money they wanted to buy anything they wanted, those enjoying crafting would have a complex and engaging system and a way to earn money AFTER they invested them skilling up. (and I really don't get all the hate against crafter's prices, we invested MILLIONS to skill up while the fighters were saving them, i remember when i was carpenter 35ish all of my LS mates had about 20 millions while I had barely 1, i guess at one point we deserve an income too...)

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I feel you, bro. I feel you

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Originally Posted by Amineri

It looks to me like SE is attempting to improve enjoyment for category 2. Make crafting very simple, soon everyone will be making their own "everything they need", and the market ward problem will be solved -- because no one will need to buy or sell anything.

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Unlikely scenario, people that do not craft, will not craft because of the horrible enter-mashing not because of the simplified recipe.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

How is the game suppose to improve when people keep saying shit like "if you don't like, don't do it?"

The goal of the game should be trying to get everyone to enjoy EVERY aspect of the game.

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Why? Why should you craft if you don't like it at all? How should a mmo be built around "everyone doing everything"?
To me an mmo should be about different options for different kind of players, you like fighting? then fight. You like crafting? then craft. You like gathering? Then gather. Why if you like fighting should you be fighting, crafting and gathering? just because the game gives you the opportunity to do everything it doesn't mean you HAVE TO even if you don't like it...

Again, the previouse system was perfect from this point of view, becouse you were allowed to do one thing full time and still get benefit from everything, because it was encouraging players interaction.
Look also at the early NM: you like to fight and you get the loots, then you take them to a player that likes to craft, he does the synth and gives the final product back to you, or in case of the dodore he buys it. Everyone do what he likes and gets what he wants, how is that a flawed system?