White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

I gotcha ^^

BTW I did not mean to sound like a douche with "this is irrelevant blah blah" I'm just a tad crabby (lack of sleep)...

Yes, a SCH can excel at most things better than a WHM if played at their peak due to the fact they can multi-task many actions in a short period. Though this is also bad on the SCH because unlike the WHM, SCH lacks a single spell that can heal a person to max HP in one spell in which they provide damage mitigation at a steep MP cost to make up for. Lustrate is a great spell and getting those aetherflow stacks recovers MP, but besides that and being instant cast, it really does not heal as much as a cure 2 on most things besides a tank and you only get only 3 of your major heals every minutes if you don't plan to use it on anything else. Also if you have any long term experience as a SCH as I do, then you know that the fairy AI is a bit clunky; for example if you had Eos on obey and gave her the command to use Whispering dawn and right afterwords to her to move then she will put Whispering Dawn on CD without casting, so there goes your main AoE regen.

Not to mention the delays can cause the skill to go off when it's s too late and having to resummon takes time and MP unless you can spare swiftcast otherwise there goes half your healing capablities.

Tl;dr Whm can get more healing done with only a few spells but at the price of MP, where a SCH can heal and prevent damage from happening but without any true heavy heal.

Sorry Kelya , you can't just blame Bard and Smn for your mp issues. I play all 3 jobs. While playing bard you must understand that bards are responsilbe for manys things. If you have Blm,Smn and Whm theres no way you can service all of them. You pick your times to use ballad. While playing smn its sometimes better to leave and dead player dead (smns have mp issues of their own) While on heals (Playing Whm) Whm has MP issues even when played at a high level, this is all I ever hear from friends who play the job in high end stuff. You might be a great Whm player but many players have problems with mp on WHm.

Haha no worries Zedd!

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Sorry Kelya , you can't just blame Bard and Smn for your mp issues. I play all 3 jobs. While playing bard you must understand that bards are responsilbe for manys things. If you have Blm,Smn and Whm theres no way you can service all of them. You pick your times to use ballad. While playing smn its sometimes better to leave and dead player dead (smns have mp issues of their own) While on heals (Playing Whm) Whm has MP issues even when played at a high level, this is all I ever hear from friends who play the job in high end stuff. You might be a great Whm player but many players have problems with mp on WHm.

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I don't clearly understand what you mean ^^

I never stated we should rely on bard/smn ? Zedd talked about bard that never uses ballad, then I said that in this case (never or almost never) yeah the player is not good, it's a team work, the heal can't do all by himself when things go wrong. Otherwise, when things are ok (no one taking extra damages/dying) you should be able to raise and let the smn dps, and you should not need any ballad at all or a few (mostly when the boss disappears and there is nothing to do). You also can add Piety to prevent the bard from singing, but it's another story ^^

Yeah sure there are a lot of person that have issues with MP, but there are a lot that haven't too. I think most ppl think than if they end a fight under 1000-2000 MP max, they are low, they have issues with MP but remember that any MP that is left without being consumed is MP waste. Don't be afraid if you finish the fight at low MP, that's ok.

The important thing is about overhealing and being low MP too fast (sooner in the fight instead of at the end). Another thing is about using the right spell at the right moment, but a lot of ppl also think the WHM is "easy to master" because he's GCD based and you can't really do a lot of things in the same time so once you figured out all the spells, it's always the same things, but actually WHM gameplay is a lot more deep than that, and this is where you learn to manage the MP. There are so much WHM that don't maximize all their spells that use the wrong AOE heal and that forgot there is another healer, there is the Whispering Dawn of Eos, ect..., and that can simply be the reason for their MP issues. If it was a MP issue due to the equilibrium of the job, after more than 1 year, SE would have already changed something, I guess.

After really mastering the job (meaning you just don't play it correctly, but effectively, which is more), you really have no reason having MP issues in HL content since you even have enough to 1) give a raise as a WHM if sch/smn can't 2) dps when you can if you have some accuracy and for some reason, the sch isn't dpsing.

Or... The issue is somewhere else (your co-healer, your tanks, your dps).

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Have you met ANY of the primals? Have you met Scyalla, Xande, Twintania, or even done any of the HM dungeons? And that's just the early content that requires "bulk" (assuming you meant group/AoE) healing.

Seriously AoE healing is needed and scholar's do not possess many tools at all to cover this arena.

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Yes I have. I've done everything up to T12, and I can tell you that most content is solo healable by Scholars when with a group that's very familiar with the fight. That means no one is taking damage from Ifrit Plumes; no one is taking damage from Titan Plumes; no one is getting hit by avoidable damage.

I'm not trying to justify that White Mages aren't needed, but simply showing why people Scholars > White Mages in terms of min maxing. As for Scylla, Xande, Twintania and any other Hard Mode dungeon, Eos is enough to handle any of those mechanics UNLESS you have:

• Newbies
• Severely undergeared players (low max hitpoints)
• People taking unnecessary damage
• Not a premade group that is very familiar and has the ability to one-shot content

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

[Scholars] cannot sit on a team in a HM dungeon with fairy on auto heal, while they just DPS, sure if they are bad SCH's and let teammates die occasionally during rare instances when tanks lose hate or more frequently when bosses do damage to the entire party.

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I don't know where you're going with this. I never said that a Scholar can sit in Cleric Stance and DPS without having the need to cast any healing or mitigation skill while solely relying on fairy heals 100% of the time. What I was trying to convey is whereas a White Mage can only essentially do one or two things per global cooldown (which by the way is either HEAL or DPS), a Scholar can do way more (DPS and HEAL at the same time).

Same can be said for WHM no?
Other than maybe T11 1st nerve cloud (Not sure survivable or not with repeated spam-age of Stoneskin), a capable WHM can probably solo heal most content as well.

^ Yes :) Just a bit more difficult (unless you go out of your way for 2x bards) since you're so restricted on GCDs that you can't really pump out extra heals aside from HoTs. I feel like you can solo-heal T11 as a Scholar, but it will require excellent usage of cooldowns and coordination (Mantra, etc.) with your team. I can only speculate since I haven't attempted or even tried yet. @.@

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Same can be said for WHM no?
Other than maybe T11 1st nerve cloud (Not sure survivable or not with repeated spam-age of Stoneskin), a capable WHM can probably solo heal most content as well.

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She basically said what I was getting at.

To me it appeared as though you were saying that SCH was superior to WHM (same thing OP is pretty much trying to say).

But you clarified that you were not saying that. So we're fine now.

For the record: I like BOTH WHM and SCH and don't find either superior in PvE content. In PvP on the other hand from what I read and seen on videos etc SCH > WHM, mostly due to tank cure fairy while the SCH can DPS. WHM has to be played a little more strategically in PvP.

FWIW, I've started leveling up my SCH for the past week or so (up to 40 now) and through all the Daily:LLR I've done, I've come away with 2 feelings;

1. WHM is definetly the better healer (especially in critical cirumstances) but lacks the versatility of the SCH.
2. Passive healing from the SCH pet is awesome, but a pain in the ass to control (Especially for Gamepad users).

Sorry again Kelya, English is my 5th tier language. Most of you already know this. Sorry for my bad English. Let me put it to you very plainly. In my eyes 1. You don't seem to want to take responsibility for your own actions and play style. 2. You seem to want to blame others for failure. 3. You seem to think that you and only you play the class right. Fixing Whm mps issues would be for the betterment of the eveyone. The other Whms who play the job right shouldn't care about having alittle more mp. The 100's of whms I know couldn't ALL be wrong.......right??

Have a good weekend.

"The other Whms who play the job right shouldn't care about having alittle more mp"

Yeah exactly, but they already shouldn't care about it, that's what I say :o
And I think I take a lot of responsibility for my own actions when I tend to do all by myself without needind a bard/smn :o I will never give the fault to them because I want not to depend on them, consequently the only person I can blame is me. But it is true that normally, in raid content each player should help each other, it is true that in progression content, you will always have the bard singing (if it's not for the healers, you know it's for smn most of the time ^^). In this case, the bard is responsible for this yeah.

I'm very sorry for your 100 WHM by the way, this is very weird and sad. Are you running SCH/WHM/BARD composition ? Because if not, that could explain a lot

I still maintain that the MP of the WHM is fine. If you think the contrary, you can just go Piety build and get 5,2K +, and completly over-use your skills !

They should at least let SoS work of Piety because its very poor design for this ability to not scale with gear.
From now and into the Expansion we will continue to gear up and our MP and MP/3 numbers will continue to get higher making SoS un-impactful outside of the threat drop.

MP management is the primary issue WHM have in end game.

Here are a few scenarios where MP becomes an issue:
1) WHM is doing DPS
2) WHM is spamming heals or overhealing
3) Raid group is taking unnecessary damage
4) Co-healer is not pulling their weight
5) Tanks fail to use cool downs

The first two points are areas where the WHM must work on. There's no reason a WHM needs to DPS. Improper use of spells and buffs is another issue WHM's run out of MP and you should NEVER overheal. Heal timing is also critical. Know when to heal and when not to heal.

The last three points are usually the reasons why a lot of people who play WHM complain about MP and fail to recognise what is going on. If the party as a whole is doing something that is forcing you to burn MP then it is your responsibility to inform them what is happening. This will allow your party to adjust things accordingly.

Find an equilibrium between heals and MP for each fight and your MP worries are gone.

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Originally Posted by firstsin

MP management is the primary issue WHM have in end game.
There's no reason a WHM needs to DPS

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SCH can dps and heal.
Beating the DPS check is vital and any extra dps can really benefit the group.
Most serious healer will just switch from WHM to AST when it comes. If:
1. SE havent fixed WHM mana issues
2. it has decent aoe healing, not necessarily the best aoe healing. You don't actually need that much healing to do well
3. It can contribute extra dps via buffs or sustainable nuking.

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Originally Posted by firstsin

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Finally, thanks you !

If the party is taking unnecessary damages, that's not a reason for buffing the MP of the WHM :o That's a reason for the party to do better on the next try, to learn from their faillures, nothing else.

Remember that almost every fight you can solo it as WHM, meaning if you (or someone at least) can do it, you can do it with correct MP management, meaning you can't find it more difficult with 2 healers (otherwise it's a team issue). There are plenty of videos on youtube, a lot of WHM are fine with their MP. Sure they have great team, but is the tank asking for better CD when the healers are bad ? Are the dps asking for better dps when others dps are bad ? Are the healers asking for more potency when others healers are bad ?

In normal conditions, MP are more than fine (again, even a WHM can dps from time to time, meaning MP actually are far away from being an issue).

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Most serious healer will just switch from WHM to AST when it comes.

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No. We don't even know what AST is even going to be like. You can't make this statement and then make it into a speculation. Why would I want to switch to AST? I love WHM.

I personally don't find that the issues with MP on WHM are even that bad. When I mentioned it before all I was saying was that it is the only issue I can see with them. And to make it seem like WHM is so horrible that AST will flat out be better, because of MP, then you obviously have no idea what balance is. WHM is fine right now. Don't act like WHM is at the bottom of the barrel.

SCH is overall better when it comes to FFXIV elite endgame. They just work better. Whm is alot better in content outside the elite endgame.
But there is no balance issues atm because there's only two healers and two healer slots.SCH is so harshly punished for stacking so theres zero reason to disclude whm.

When AST arrives it will be well designed like ninja was and WHM will be the worst healer.
Because every single endgame raid such as coil has been around DPS checks rather then actual healer skill.
If AST can increase the dps of the raid they will be preferred end off story.

Im speculating AST to be able to buff the pt in some way. If AST cannot increase the pts dps or cannot nuke sustainably then they will be equal in value of a whm but below SCH who have shields, selene and good dps.

Whm isnt weak in terms of actual healing , its the strongest aoe healer atm. In end though a little less healing potency for increased dps is the best way to tackle SE endgame raid philosophy.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Whm isnt weak in terms of actual healing , its the strongest aoe healer atm. In end though a little less healing potency for increased dps is the best way to tackle SE endgame raid philosophy.

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^ This 100%. DPS makes healing way easier as it lowers the amount of healing time, heals required and cooldowns & resources spent for all classes (TP, MP, etc.).

Mistakes makes things harder. And unfamiliarity creates inefficiencies.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

snip.

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I respectfully disagree. If that was the case then raid groups would take two scholars instead of one WHM and one SCH. There are content in the game which are easier with WHM or SCH but that does not mean one is better then the other. There are strategies that play put better with a WHM or a SCH but that does not mean one is better then the other.

So even if Succor does not stack two succor does a lot of healing. You'll potentially have 12 lustrate at your disposal. No "MP" issue. Two Eos, when microed can time their buffs.

Yet no one does cos neither SCH or WHM is better then the other.

Lastly if healers are required to help with DPS to push phases then either your DPS are not as good as you think or your party lacks decent gear.

Better players have done T9 solo with WHM link.

Lack of skill is not an excuse to claim WHM are weaken than SCH.

SCH is so harshly punished for stacking . Thats why we don't double SCH.

In cutting edge content its never lack of heals or healer skill that holds the pt back. Its always lack of dps (or your max HP is too low).

Turn 9 is made much easier by extra dps so its not surprising its solo heal able.
Most of the difficulty of turn 9 is the instant kill mechanics not the healing aspect.
With enough dps you skip phases , this is the case for most endgame fights.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

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Thank you for saying that. It completely makes your previous point mute. Secondly the video is of T9 not FCoB and T9 is still a challenging fight. The point I was trying to make and you unknowingly agreed to an extent. Be a SCH or WHM both can heal all content fine on their own. Those lacking skill in one or the other will complain one is weaker and create a bunch of excuses to make up for their failings.

One last thing, healers never meet the accuracy cap for end game content som you can never rely on them to help push phases. That is why there is never a need for healers to DPS. If you do, you risk wasting MP and missing attacks (thought it would be obvious by now).

BTW which FCoB turn are you or the other healer is doing DPS on?

Im only speculating on AST, im speculating it having some buffs. Since it uses cards like Corsair.

But if AST gives buffs to the DPS then why would you take WHM over it.

Although its possible that in these next 10 levels WHM will get something to make you pick them over the other two jobs.

I said that optimal pt will be SCH + X.

SCH is a better team mate then WHM. Their shields don't over heal like WHM does. So if they both heal a target it wont be 100% overheal.

I understand what you are saying but we are going off the topic here.

It is also possible that AST may not be the way you will like to do healing. We know too little about the new Jobs and speculating with no information will lead us no where.

WHM is very barebones and its only so because it was the first healer made. I dont think i wont enjoy a job with more depth. I doubt AST will be more bland then WHM.

I already am a bit annoyed by something with WHM. Its not its mana issues, i never run out of mana since i have a PIE build(i only run low if i dps).
Its how much enmity regen and medica 2 get.

I dont play sch because the extra button pressing for eos/selene hurts my fingers.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

I dont play sch because the extra button pressing for eos/selene hurts my fingers.

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I drove a '72 Pontiac Firebird for a few years. At speed (and it had amazing straight-line speed!) it was twitchy, uncomfortable and a bit unpredictable. And I always had to do something to it, maintenance wise. SCH.

I have a '76 bMW 3 series now. It doesnt turn as many heads, but its stable, comforable, predictable and faster through curves. It runs thru a bit of power steering fluid, but otherwise It just goes; no drama. WHM.

You, sir, win this thread. Amazing analogy :D

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Because every single endgame raid such as coil has been around DPS checks rather then actual healer skill.

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I'm guessing you've not done much FCOB yet? =( T13 is particularly rough on healers especially when starting out with mostly ilvl110 gear, it's a real workout!

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm guessing you've not done much FCOB yet? =( T13 is particularly rough on healers especially when starting out with mostly ilvl110 gear, it's a real workout!

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No i quit my raiding static before FCoB released. I just watch my sister play it now(armchair healing) , they mostly complain about dps checks.

@Sharazisspecial

May I request what new skills does 3.0 bring to the table?
Since you're pretty damned sure AST will be getting a Shell-Type Buff to go with Scholar's Protect-Type Buff, I can only assume you're a Time Traveler or a SE Employee :).

P/S : Personally I THINK AST may get a Shell-Type Buff, but Sharazisspecial said so with such authority ("Most serious healers bla bla bla....") I can't help but assume he knows what's going down in 3.0 :P

I just know that if they do indeed make astrologian's healing focused on heal over times, they will have a card or skill that will "ignite them" for a burst heal. The damage flow favors upfront healing rather than heal over times. :)

And White Mage + Scholar is used over two of the same types in progression raiding is due to the fact that they cover each other's weaknesses. Once it's in farm mode, people may begin to min-max, and will usually remove the White Mage as their raw healing power isn't needed as much. Turn 10 and Turn 11 have already been solo healed by Scholars, so this min-maxing pattern generally says Scholar > White Mage AFTER the entire group is familiar with the fight. That means no unnecessary damage, and only minimal healing is required as no one dying or falling below x heath a second before the next mechanic/raid-wide hit.

Hopefully AST its not HOT based because HOTS are really bad in this game. Thats if their hots work like whm hots.
Hots get too much aggro meaning you can barely use them at the start of the fight or if there are adds popping in fights (nearly every fight has adds), the hots tick for pitiful amounts. Preventing dmg or timing a heal will always be better then relying on hots.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

@Sharazisspecial

May I request what new skills does 3.0 bring to the table?
Since you're pretty damned sure AST will be getting a Shell-Type Buff to go with Scholar's Protect-Type Buff, I can only assume you're a Time Traveler or a SE Employee :).

P/S : Personally I THINK AST may get a Shell-Type Buff, but Sharazisspecial said so with such authority ("Most serious healers bla bla bla....") I can't help but assume he knows what's going down in 3.0 :P

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Ok SE may surprise me and make AST terrible(e.g hot based healer) or they could give WHM some strong 50-60 skills which guarantees them a spot.
But looking at Ninja, i think they will overload AST with utility.
Also instead of magic defense AST could have a max hp buff for everyone.

@Parawill

Please note that "able to solo heal" and "min-maxing" are not always inter-related.

Maybe bringing 2 healers will end up having even more dps overall? Things that can be done to increase dps with 2 healers:

1) Selene.
2) SCH 100% dps uptime, fairy assist WHM.
3) Tanks can afford to go even more offensive.
4) Melee can choose to eat certain AoE to maximise dem deeps.

If you were to bring 1 healer only, most likely the above points cannot be achieved, so you're trading the above points for an additional DPS.
Which composition will yield more dps? who knows, and that is the point I am trying to bring, when you're trying to down a current end game boss with minimal amount of time (aka min-maxing), things aren't as straightforward as changing 1 healer to 1 dps.

I just want to give my 2 cents regarding what AST would offer... I have this huge feeling that with these cards, they will play like how SCHs were in FFXI - they will have all skills given to them but are below the norms and will be powered up by those cards.

Now getting back to the real topic, I agree with the statement that both jobs cover each others' weaknesses and that in a min-maxing scenario, a SCH will be more suited as the main focus of WHM healing is burst which is really not that much needed if everyone in the party knows the fight very well. Although giving much thought, it is a bit flawed since by then, the WHM can just sit in CS much longer and do more dps with Stone II than let's say a SCH reapplying DoTs every now and then. This gap is even more accentuated in the presence of BRDs.

Guys every turn that can be solo healed by SCH can also be solo healed by WHM. Only difference is that the WHM MUST know the fight inside out to be able to cast SS back to back. There are rarely any scenarios where lustrate is a must. Or Succor/Adlo us necessary. SS + precasting cure/cure2 does the job.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

@Parawill
Please note that "able to solo heal" and "min-maxing" are not always inter-related.

Maybe bringing 2 healers will end up having even more dps overall? Things that can be done to increase dps with 2 healers:

1) Selene.
2) SCH 100% dps uptime, fairy assist WHM.
3) Tanks can afford to go even more offensive.
4) Melee can choose to eat certain AoE to maximise dem deeps.

If you were to bring 1 healer only, most likely the above points cannot be achieved, so you're trading the above points for an additional DPS.
Which composition will yield more dps? who knows, and that is the point I am trying to bring, when you're trying to down a current end game boss with minimal amount of time (aka min-maxing), things aren't as straightforward as changing 1 healer to 1 dps.

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Note taken :) Was focused on min-maxing that I totally forgot other scenarios (like Scholar on DPS only). And yes, though White Mages -can- solo heal fights, the mere fact that Scholars can bring other things aside from just heals is what I'm trying to point out. Like sharazisspecial has stated, where a White Mage brings only raw healing power (and occasional DPS ala Fluid Aura, Aero, etc.), a Scholar will be bringing more than that.

This is why Scholars will always > White Mage in that setting. You get more out of that one healer role than the other.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

Note taken :) Was focused on min-maxing that I totally forgot other scenarios (like Scholar on DPS only). And yes, though White Mages -can- solo heal fights, the mere fact that Scholars can bring other things aside from just heals is what I'm trying to point out. Like sharazisspecial has stated, where a White Mage brings only raw healing power (and occasional DPS ala Fluid Aura, Aero, etc.), a Scholar will be bringing more than that.

This is why Scholars will always > White Mage in that setting. You get more out of that one healer role than the other.

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I have only seen SCH go full DPS when they are in a party with people who are over geared for said fight.

If a scholar is to go full dps in FCoB with a party that is i110/120 gear you'll be shouting at the SCH to stick to healing as they will not be able to keep everyone healed.

Also to add WHM are a beast in speedruns and a skilled WHM can stance dance to DPS and heal effectively.

Not to mention: Full DPS scholar? Really? Might as well just bring another DPS class. A fully geared, accuracy melded scholar contributes maybe 300-350 DPS when they're permanently in cleric's stance. If you bring in another monk or dragoon, they'll do 500-550 or perhaps more. This is a 200-250 DPS difference which just having selene around cannot bridge. This approach is in the same category as solo tanking rather than bringing two tanks.

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Originally Posted by firstsin

I have only seen SCH go full DPS when they are in a party with people who are over geared for said fight.

If a scholar is to go full dps in FCoB with a party that is i110/120 gear you'll be shouting at the SCH to stick to healing as they will not be able to keep everyone healed.

Also to add WHM are a beast in speedruns and a skilled WHM can stance dance to DPS and heal effectively.

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^This x 150%