Bard needs some love too.

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Originally Posted by Taban

I could be 100% wrong here, I'm not a math wizard, but from what I remember damage increases are additive not multiplicative, so stacking other straight dps+% cooldowns during TA won't make a difference. Snapshotting DOT's and big damage cd's like Barrage/Raiton will definitely benefit from being used during TA

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Yes, it's more to big attacks and stacking damage+% cooldowns together with alternative cooldowns for maximum effect (like IR, Barrage and Life Surge)

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

And yet according to everyone critical is a worthless stat because it is only 1.5x rather than 2x, yet here you are pulling it up. Thank you for at least acknowledging critical isn't terrible...

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I wanna see those bards that say that crit is worthless stat. It have almost 1-to-1 weight to determination for bards even though det on gear have 1/1.5 weight.
And a buff is always a buff, even skillspeed one, even though last one have some nasty things attached.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

But 10% damage taken increase does not mean 10% DPS increase over the entire course of the fight. It lasts 10 seconds, with any decent party in 4 mans, bosses last 3-4 minutes at most, you can use it 3-4 times. In raids, you may use it 10-12 times. You're just seeing the numbers and assuming...

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I haven't seen that someone assumed that it'll be 10% straight dps increase over the entire fight. It will not. Same as Foe is not 10% increase for mages as BRD can maintain it limited duration (it takes a little bit more than twice time to regenerate mana spent on foe than foe lasts)
Normally you can assume 5 "DPS" in 8man raid (4 DPS + 2 Tanks) and then calculate efficiency of various buffs based on that. TA is better even with 2 mages around on single target and Foe obviously better on packs of 3 or larger even with one mage.

I'm always for buffing my main job, but I think BRD is fine as is. The ability to still maximize DPS while dealing with the pepperoni mechanic in t13 is pretty useful. Can't say the same for our melee or BLM.

brd damage does look a bit sad on a dummy test compared to other DPS jobs but on actual raid bosses it often balances out quite nicely. Often a tight race between SMN and BRD on our t9 farm last tier.

If you'd like you can also include the damage increase to casters from Foe's as BRD damage. When you do that BRD is right near or at the top.

The one thing I havent seen mentioned is the fact that DPS is damage per second. This should balance out between all the DPS classes regardless of mobility.

If a BRD is putting out 300 DPS over the duration of a fight, yet a mnk is putting out 450 DPS and only getting to attack a portion of the time, then the BRD is WAAAAY underpowered.

were not talking about 5 second spans here as proper DPS calculations are for the duration of the fight, which with a balanced game and on equal gear and skill levels accounted for should be relatively even.

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Originally Posted by Draken

If a BRD is putting out 300 DPS over the duration of a fight, yet a mnk is putting out 450 DPS and only getting to attack a portion of the time, then the BRD is WAAAAY underpowered.

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A gap this large doesn't happen on any fight provided the players are pretty equally geared and skilled. Even t8.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

I'm always for buffing my main job, but I think BRD is fine as is. The ability to still maximize DPS while dealing with the pepperoni mechanic in t13 is pretty useful. Can't say the same for our melee or BLM.

brd damage does look a bit sad on a dummy test compared to other DPS jobs but on actual raid bosses it often balances out quite nicely. Often a tight race between SMN and BRD on our t9 farm last tier.

If you'd like you can also include the damage increase to casters from Foe's as BRD damage. When you do that BRD is right near or at the top.

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Rinchan! Back to BRD huh? :p

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Rinchan! Back to BRD huh? :p

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haha, yep. a few % off from a t13 kill. ;__; Tonight is the night, I think! :D How've you been? I see you're sporting an insane amount of crafted gear too.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

To be honest the gear scaling is probably the biggest issue and if they fixed that i would be happy too. If that Bard did like 370 dps in t11 with a 130 weapon that shows how badly we need a fix to that because my average there is like 350-360 with a high allagan weapon and i doubt that the Bard of that party is bad at his job..

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TBH that bard with 370 clearing DPS on IL130 weapon can do better.

My FC have one BRD that cleared T11 with Nexus on 389. He's probably going to burst 400 when he have the IL130 weapon next week.

However do note that he was IL116 though. He had the Dreadwrym Gloves, Dreadwyrm Neck, Dreadwyrm Ring and Ironworks Ring that time.

Using a more relate-able fight for comparison - T9: We just farmed a few rounds of T9 about an hour ago, he's still on Nexus, and now he had the Dreadwyrm Pants so he is at IL119. I was lazy to change out my accessories so I was running at IL106, same Nexus weapon. With party buff, he is at 52 DEX higher than I do (581 VS 633), he parsed 361 while I parsed 343. That whooping 52 points of DEXTERITY translates to just about 20 DPS increase. That's how bad BRD's gear scaling is. :(

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

haha, yep. a few % off from a t13 kill. ;__; Tonight is the night, I think! :D How've you been? I see you're sporting an insane amount of crafted gear too.

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Good luck with that, you can do it!

Still trying to find a capable and suitable team to fit into to progress further ;_;

I'm already ready to get past T11 on first week but then static have issues and broke over that, been a ronin and trying out with various teams (which are limited anyways) that are on T11 last phase, stuck there ever since.

For me we sold a lot of carries as a FC so we typically have the gil, and of course my raiding mentality is that I will try to bring the best I can to the table. The HP checks at the last 2 turn is tough for pre 2.4 gears so yeah, getting ready for everything :)

On a side note, aren't you sporting full crafted set too? :p

Cost wise isn't that bad, I was one of the first few (maybe first 5) in my server that does 4 star crafts, made some good money from there also.

Pretty sure I was at around 390 in our latest t11 kill at i104 w/ all my crafted gear, Nexus bow, and unnecessary vit accessories. Don't have the numbers on hand anymore. 370 w/ a i130 weap does seem a bit low. One thing that does potentially force a BRD to trend downward in t11 is if they need to attack the add the caster is on. Very reduced damage. If not forced to waste GCDs on that add I'd expect ~400 or slightly above with my current gear

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Pretty sure I was at around 390 in our latest t11 kill at i104 w/ all my crafted gear, Nexus bow, and unnecessary vit accessories. Don't have the numbers on hand anymore. 370 w/ a i130 weap does seem a bit low. One thing that does potentially force a BRD to trend downward in t11 is if they need to attack the add the caster is on. Very reduced damage. If not forced to waste GCDs on that add I'd expect ~400 or slightly above.

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Yeap 390 sounds about right for a BRD that worth his salt. Song singing may affect a little but shouldn't be a starking difference.

BRDs shouldn't be attacking the Cube add though. The caster should be able to full force attack it and kill it at the same time the main group hits on the Sphere, it shouldn't be too much of a difference.

Speaking of that, one night I was trying out T11 via PF, I was dispatched to solo the CUBE and you know what... I almost killed the Cube ahead of the main group on the Sphere that I have to turn back and pewpewpew the Sphere a little to close the gap before heading back to finish the Cube.

/endofrant.


EDIT: Nvm, I realized party composition matters too. If you are the typical 2 MNKs group then yeah the Sphere would be probably down way faster than what the solo caster could do

I used the extreme gap as an example, I know they are much closer, but all things being equal they should be pretty identical if the jobs are properly balanced.

Well the crafting gear is amazing for bards but i'm a poor scrub ;( I don't know what gear is that guy using tho.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

TBH that bard with 370 clearing DPS on IL130 weapon can do better.

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I really don't know how old are this dps snapshot, so you shouldn't imply current equip of that bard for parse numbers.
Based on numbers I would assume that it's a typical HA stuff as numbers are quite typical for how IL115 weapon parses. Only thing that was stated for sure for this snapshot is that NIN is pre-fcob weapon (and now it also have IL130 weapon on lodestone).

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Originally Posted by Draken

I used the extreme gap as an example, I know they are much closer, but all things being equal they should be pretty identical if the jobs are properly balanced.

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No.

BRDs have utility that other DPS lack, so if all the DPS put out identical numbers then the favor would be heavily skewed in favor of BRDs that can put out just as much damage while also offering support that the other classes can't provide.

BRD needs to be behind the other DPS classes to keep things balanced.

lets not go back to the days when 2/4 dps slots were for bards

BRD imo only needs a few changes.

1) Remove or loosen up on the damage penalty on Ballad/Paeon and forever silence the idiots who refuse to use these songs on account of them "losing too much deeps" for it. Never heard of a tank complaining they lose too much damage from Shield Oath, or a melee complaining that they lose too much damage dodging that critical enemy AoE, but holy crap it's almost the end of 2014 and I still keep seeing this problem.

2) Why in the name of all that is good and holy does Requiem aggro passive mobs? Seriously, take a page from geomancer bubbles in FFXI and make the song have no effect on things that aren't already on your hate list. (Remember that in trials/boss fights, everything in the battlefield generally spawns aggroed to the whole party anyway, so these fights would not be affected)

3) Seriously, it's a DPS. Why does it get a healer limit break?

3.5) Also, why does "Wide" Volley have a smaller AoE than Rain of Death does?

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BRDs can already get a DMG buff from DRGs, so even the penalty from signing isn't too bad

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Disembowel becomes a flat out damage INCREASE (instead of a "penalty reducer") if you're not using Ballad/Paeon though, so that point is kind of irrelevant. It's not like Disembowel only works if you're singing.

No.
Bard is fairly balanced with the exception that it has a freaking healer LB. Give it a DPS LB and we good. DMG increase to bard + it's already versatile mobility = OP. It's pretty obvious that's just flat out OP, so don't sugar coat - just say you want bard to be OP because it's your main, and who doesn't love playing an OP class?
I mained a bard when I first started out, and I think it is fine the way it is with the exception of the LB.

BRDs can do high DPS.

they're also a ranged DPS, insta-attack DPS, no cast time, and can move around while attack.

seriously, this job has no right to ask for a buff.

With how strict final coil's dps checks are, a bard can't afford to be singing ballad for minutes. No matter what anyone says Bard is a dps first and support second. A bard that deals mediocre dps is worse than a bard that never sings. Not saying a bard should't sing but they and the party should try to minimize time spent singing. Foe excluded of course. A party that has a bad healer that can't manage their mp well means bard can't sing foe. 20% damage reduction and 10% lost.

we have 100% uptime. we're fine.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

BRDs can do high DPS.

they're also a ranged DPS, insta-attack DPS, no cast time, and can move around while attack.

seriously, this job has no right to ask for a buff.

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Yeah, that's the trade off. In other MMO, ranged jobs usually have to buy and spend a lot of money on their arrows, which is the compromise for them being able to deal a ton of damage from far away, etc. BUUUT for some reason they took out the arrows in this game...so we are left with what you described :)

I wish the devs would just add a support class and make bard that, and release a real ranged DD job.

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Originally Posted by Meier

Yeah, that's the trade off. In other MMO, ranged jobs usually have to buy and spend a lot of money on their arrows, which is the compromise for them being able to deal a ton of damage from far away, etc. BUUUT for some reason they took out the arrows in this game...so we are left with what you described :)

I wish the devs would just add a support class and make bard that, and release a real ranged DD job.

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Coming from WoW, arrows/bullets ended up being incredibly cumbersome for both inventory and keeping track of (even when we had bag slots dedicated to ammunition). Only made worse when the best ammo was crafted by engineers.

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Originally Posted by Meier

Yeah, that's the trade off. In other MMO, ranged jobs usually have to buy and spend a lot of money on their arrows, which is the compromise for them being able to deal a ton of damage from far away, etc. BUUUT for some reason they took out the arrows in this game...so we are left with what you described :)

I wish the devs would just add a support class and make bard that, and release a real ranged DD job.

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gonna be difficult as there needs to be some sort of penalty in exchange for having mobility and 100% uptime. and I have a feeling that even if they do get this figured out people will still be requesting for bards because of its utility.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

With how strict final coil's dps checks are, a bard can't afford to be singing ballad for minutes. No matter what anyone says Bard is a dps first and support second. A bard that deals mediocre dps is worse than a bard that never sings. Not saying a bard should't sing but they and the party should try to minimize time spent singing. Foe excluded of course. A party that has a bad healer that can't manage their mp well means bard can't sing foe. 20% damage reduction and 10% lost.

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BRD isn't DPS first and support second. BRD is whatever the party needs it to be at any given moment, provided the circumstances of said moment allow the BRD to perform that role effectively.

At least, that's my opinion on the job.