Let Players Speed Run Again

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Someone in full HA is basically guaranteed to be a more skilled and experienced player than someone in full soldiery.

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Said by someone who is a self-admitted clear-seller.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Said by someone who is a self-admitted clear-seller.

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People are so jealous of those who know how to market their own skills.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Things said by people who have never set foot in coil. Someone in full HA is basically guaranteed to be a more skilled and experienced player than someone in full soldiery. But this is going off on a tangent.

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Total BS. I've beaten T1-5 and T7. t6,8,and 9 I still have yet to beat. Synergy is the key to all raids. I can be the best raider all I want but If I got 7 scrubs with me, Regaurdless of their item levels, I'll never see the 1st blighted in t6 or 1st meteor in t9, heck scrub teams with no synergy OR over all skill is why it took me so long to beat T5. AF Gear? phfff I got 2 AF 1 sets with out even playing my class right. If I tryed that crap even in low level dungeons I'd get creemed. Sol and Poetics take time to win. Patences + Skill = Full Sol/Poetics gear.

All you've proven is that you're an Elitist with a Raid Gear fetush. Some of the Raid Gear I've found in T7 was inferior to my Sol gear Stat wise so I know good and well what gear is good and what isn't. Here's a tip, Dreadwyrm Dragoon gear is not only Fugly but it's inferior to Auged Ironworks gear as well.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

People are so jealous of those who know how to market their own skills.

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This is just laughable. Weak justification at best.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

This is just laughable. Weak justification at best.

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Gotta love how she totally missed the point of my statement too.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Things said by people who have never set foot in coil. Someone in full HA is basically guaranteed to be a more skilled and experienced player than someone in full soldiery. But this is going off on a tangent.

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We farmed scob every week pre 2.4 and got to the point many drops went FFA to the party. I have quite a few HA DRG and caster gear from greed rolls, yet never really play them so I know I am not that good on those jobs. Yet Ive got the gear.

If I went into a dung as DRG, I would fail miserably. I have the gear, But I dont have the practice.

Aka having High Allagan isnt a certainty that the player can use that job effectively. But if you had cleared SCOB as much as you say, you would know that.

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ellatrix's head

Well people who want speed runs got their wish granted because now everyone's speed running dungeons for their Zodiac weapons, new or non relic players be damned.

In youtube you could see a year ago (maybe now too) WP speedruns with no doors, the tank pulling everything and then all the mobs resetting at the entrance of the last room and going away so you didn't have to kill them. Then they put doors or other methods to avoid that.

Brayflox HM has doors so what we call speed run is not a total speed run, the developers knew where they put the doors and how many mobs could be pulled together. Brayflox HM appeared at the same time with the Animus update and everybody needed to farm a lot of tomes, so speed runs were all the time at PF. And certain jobs were not wanted, there were conflicts among players, some never wanted to go to Brayflox HM, and a there was a lot of drama about speed runs. This made developers make doing huge pulls and lock-out tecniques more difficult in later created dungeons than what they had done previously.

It seems it works, since, though people discover ways and new methods to do quicker runs, there is no drama about speed runs in the newer dungeons as there was when Brayflox HM appeared.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

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And they made dungeons more boring and longer that way with no sense of threat.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

And they made dungeons more boring and longer that way with no sense of threat.

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We've survived Getting Tempered by a primal, Numerous plots on our lives at the hands of Garlemauld and the Acsians, AND survived Ultima being fired at point blank range.

Honestly why should we fear any thing at this point?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

We've survived Getting Tempered by a primal, Numerous plots on our lives at the hands of Garlemauld and the Acsians, AND survived Ultima being fired at point blank range.

Honestly why should we fear any thing at this point?

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I mean as in myself. I have to pull absolutely everything to a boss room to feel like enemies are threatening. But these dumb gate mechanics, or drop our HP to 1, a mob won't appear till after a certain group is killed etc are making it boring because it seperates a lot of the mobs. Kill 10 mobs, then the bear pops. Open gate then kill 2 wolves in a bomb in snowcloak. Qarn, kill 9 mobs, open gate kill 3 (6 if someone opens the door). Just let me pull everything!

Snowcloak can be done pretty damn fast... I do it with guildies ridiculously fast. I pull everything up to where the bear spawn and it works great. Pull all the ice sprites and gobbues to the end as well. It's actually pretty easy to do Snowcloak in like 15mins or less. I'm also only i100 atm and can do it pretty easily.

Why not make a compromise?

If you sign up for any roulette run, you may also be grouped with people doing the dungeons for story reasons or at least people who have not signed up for a roulette run.

So my proposal is this:
For the expert roulette, we separate the people signing up for roulette and those that didn't. Why? Simple: If SE abandons all those forced stops and mechanics that the OP mentioned (because honestly, I'm starting to hate those, too) in the expert dungeons (or every dungeon that is and will be in the expert roulette), the people doing the expert roulette have the chance to speedrun without forced uncreative hindrances that are boring even if you're doing it the first time. On the other hand, the people who did not sign up for expert roulette, but want to do the dungeon separately/specifically and signed up for that, have the chance to explore and get to know the dungeon, until they feel up to the task of doing the expert roulette

The point of the roulette is so that people that have completed the content can go and be assigned with people that haven't completed the content and help them through. Going through a dungeon quickly is all well and good, but speed runs are insane! I find that a failed attempt to speed run takes longer than a well paced run to clear because a failure to speed run is death and then there's all the travel time to get back to where you were and if you keep trying the same thing over and over and the DPS, heals OR tank is not well geared or able to handle the number of monsters it'll all end back the same.

I try and bear with suicidal tanks, but really... there's a limit to patience.

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Originally Posted by Rheumasalbe

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http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/54...ffc0_50x50.jpg:

Not only will that never happen, but it is completely counter to what the roulette is there for. The main reason (yes, this is the main reason they have DF the way it is, surprise!) it is there is so that everyone has to wait less time to get into a dungeon, both players who are new to the dungeon, those who have already run it a thousand times and want to SR it, and everyone in-between. if you did what you are suggesting DF and the Roulette would basically be pointless and everyone would be complaining especially the players who are new to the dungeon, who would NEVER get into a dungeon.



I have read through this thread (mostly) and really can't see what argument the OP is making against what many have already said: If speedrunning is a "choice" it becomes mandatory. You may not make it so, and ask others if they want to speedrun, but if it became a "choice" others will force others to do a SR of dungeons, it would cause arguments and a lot of people getting pissy and kicked out of groups because of it. From both sides. This is the reason many of us are against speedrunning being a "choice" and I have yet to see you come up with why this is good, or why it wouldn't become a problem again. We all know it would happen again and just because it is a "choice" (it was a choice in Brayflox HM remember? Only it wasn't because SR was forced) doesn't mean people will make one. Most people will always choose the "faster" route if its available.

Also, just because you find something boring doesn't mean the rest of us do.

If you did come up with an answer, then I'm sorry and I must have missed it. But from your posts I doubt it.

I remember posting earlier in this thread that the majority of players will default to doing things that are efficient. All the proof I need is how players are now running dungeons now for relic items.

The minority - those who want to be slow and inefficient - should stick to making a linkshell then run dungeons that way.

By your logic I could go bake a cake at twice the temperature and have it be done in half the time.

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

By your logic I could go bake a cake at twice the temperature and have it be done in half the time.

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The end result of baking a cake at twice the temperature is that your cake is burnt.

That's not the same as doing a dungeon quickly, which would result in the same rewards as doing it slowly.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The end result of baking a cake at twice the temperature is that your cake is burnt.

That's not the same as doing a dungeon quickly, which would result in the same rewards as doing it slowly.

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Would a better example be cooking a steak? Bacause you can cook a steak quickly and still get a properly cooked steak, but by cooking it slower and more carefully you get all of the flavor that you would lose by hurrying.

Those are some awful analogies, please stop.

A correct analogy would be working and getting paid per project. More projects = more money!

...which is exactly how dungeon rewards work.

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Originally Posted by Deculture

Those are some awful analogies, please stop.

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Didn't really try to make it one. was just trying to be incontext to the cake analogy.

All in all, haste makes wast. The Devs put a lot of time and work into these dungeons and some times, not matter what class I am, It'd be nice to stop and take a good look at them for a bit. Really if I just wanted to pull a large group of enemys and kill them till I die there are an endless amount of Zombie shooters to pick from.

It'd be nice to be able to put the RP back in MMORPG by actually treating dungeons like they're more than a weekly mob dumpster we have to dig through for gear that's just going to end up out classed in two months any way.

So you want to take your time and explore the same dungeon every single time you run it?

Personally, I would prefer a dungeon similar to Pharos Sirius. In 2.1, you could not pull every single mob for one reason or another. First room? Everything could use AoE's, some of those AoE's could cause status ailments (Dropsy, Poison, Vulnerability Down). There's also the Corrupted Sprites that have Banish III (if not stunned/silenced, could one shot the healers). This is what made Pharos Sirius interesting to me, as the trash mobs needed to be treated similarly to bosses. People, I believe, are only speed running dungeons because the trash mobs are all the same now. No group of mobs with status ailment AoE's (Pugil, Leech, Uragnite) and no mobs with 'non-AoE indicator' attacks/spells (Elbst, Bogy, Corrupted Sprite). Just... nothing interesting in between bosses :/

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

So you want to take your time and explore the same dungeon every single time you run it?

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Not really every single time, but to be honest, all I've ever done is speed through them since day one. the first runs, especially with story dungeons, I was gunning for the boss with the passion of the quest driving me. After that it was, well let get this crap over with, or Time to pwn the boss for the millionth time.

To this day I really havn't had the opertunity to look around and enjoy, marvel at, or (in some cases) gaze in horror at the actual dungeon it's self. Maybe one day after solo running is allowed in dungeons.

Heh. You guys are why we can't have nice things :). I'm new to this game but I've done the MMO thing many different times now and I still abide by the doctrine of "If you have a specific way you want to play feel free to use the party finder or your guild".

All the complaining about speed running, not speed running, blah blah blah is at least part of the reason why tanks are the hardest things to come by in game. No one wants to deal with pressure to speed run or get kicked by the DPS that have been sitting in queue for 75 minutes to get into a 20 minute dungeon.

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Originally Posted by dcgregorya

Heh. You guys are why we can't have nice things :). I'm new to this game but I've done the MMO thing many different times now and I still abide by the doctrine of "If you have a specific way you want to play feel free to use the party finder or your guild".

All the complaining about speed running, not speed running, blah blah blah is at least part of the reason why tanks are the hardest things to come by in game. No one wants to deal with pressure to speed run or get kicked by the DPS that have been sitting in queue for 75 minutes to get into a 20 minute dungeon.

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Azeroth Native? Or Elitist in the making? I can't tell. There has always been more to final fantasy games than "Beat the shit out of them!!!". Infact, even this petty squabaling is all part of the final fantasy experience. No one is more divided on how we want this series than the fan base it's self. Probably why, for the most part, SE rarly listens to our bitching. lol

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Azeroth Native? Or Elitist in the making? I can't tell. There has always been more to final fantasy games than "Beat the shit out of them!!!". Infact, even this petty squabaling is all part of the final fantasy experience. No one is more divided on how we want this series than the fan base it's self. Probably why, for the most part, SE rarly listens to our bitching. lol

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I'm with you :). I was more responding to the first people in the thread who were saying there's an ethical obligation to running it as fast as possible. I'm happy to run a dungeon however everyone else wants to do it...it's kinda nice to see the dungeons.

But yeah, I'm not an elitist I just mean in general if people get really upset about the duty finder then don't use it - especially DPS who have the easiest job.

Not only elitists do speedrun.

The game has enough "not-Beat the shit out of them!!!" content, your argument is kinda invalid. If you want to compare FF gameplay to dungeons in this game, better make a comparism to level grinding in the older games.
Guess you did not take you sweet time to do that. The music was sweet tho :)

I have a heart for new player, I really do.
But let's not forget the players tormented to run these places 100 times per week for SE terribad Relic quests.

Actually, I misinterprated what dcgregorya was saying. I call it "The Azeroth Complex" when players only veiw dungeons only as a place to get gear. The Azeroth Complex is also usually the starting point of new elitists.

It goes back to the arguments of Gear =/= skill, to speed or not to speed, and the "Who's the noob" blame game. This isn't Cod, Halo, or Destiny. We all have the right and ability to almost as we damn well please in this game with only a few reasonable restrictions. Thus the same problems occure in game as IRL, the few ass hats in the bunch ruin it for every one. Did I like the nerf in AK? No, now you can almost solo it. Did I like the one for PS? Yes because more than a few of those mechanics were compleatly unfair to the average player.

The thing is, you speed because YOU want to. Trust me after they die a few times from pulling ahead of you they'll get the picture. On the other hand do I look at every flower and speck of dust in the dungeon on the way through? No because it's disrespectful.

All things in balence my friends. All things in balence.

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Originally Posted by dcgregorya

I'm with you :). I was more responding to the first people in the thread who were saying there's an ethical obligation to running it as fast as possible. I'm happy to run a dungeon however everyone else wants to do it...it's kinda nice to see the dungeons.

But yeah, I'm not an elitist I just mean in general if people get really upset about the duty finder then don't use it - especially DPS who have the easiest job.

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And I do apologize, As I've said, I did misinterpret what you were saying and that was all my bad. So I do apologize for that. And you're right, you can't have it all cause you can't please every one.

If I see a farm party on PF for content I havn't done I will either pass over them or ask if they're ok with a rookie. If they arn't I move on. As for DF, 1st thing I do as tank is greet the party and make sure we're all on the same page. Even if it's all melees, if they think they can handle the swarm and the healer says they can keep up I'll give it a shot, but the majority vote always rules to me. 2-1 vote for or against. And if it's up to me..... well my pace is kinda half way anyway. Like when I run my alts in satasha NM. "We doing all rooms or going streight to the boss?" Vote goes up and we follow through.

I'm sure somebody already said this but 20 pages is a lot to read. You said people who don't want to speed run should use PF. Why can't people who want to SR use the PF? That way you all know going into it you are capable of speed running.

I'm totally shocked that this thread is still breathing...

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Originally Posted by mdha02

I'm sure somebody already said this but 20 pages is a lot to read. You said people who don't want to speed run should use PF. Why can't people who want to SR use the PF? That way you all know going into it you are capable of speed running.

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This is a partial solution. But the BEST solution is for the tank/healer to communicate BEFORE he/she shoots off into the dungeon only to return to the start of the dungeon where the rest of the party is still being buffed...

But there are too many tanks that have grown accustomed to bad habits, so the common courtesy ship has already sailed. I still to this very day ask DF teams. I get more that want a SR than I do with a steady pace, but my rules are:

1. If healer rejects to big pulls and I am tanking. There will be no big pulls.
2. If majority wants a SR (1 of the votes being healer). I will SR, until I see the team can't handle it.

Yesterday's snowcloak was very entertaining, me as healer. While buffing the team the tank fled. I did not chase him as I was in mid cast of protect after I used swiftcast + SSII, before he went off like a dress on prom night. I told him to wait so I can cast buffs.

He died and came back to start. After we buffed up and started the dungeon like a real team. The tank just had to keep calling me names... It took a hell of alot of energy for me to keep quiet, but he said a little too much at Fenrir and guess what? I let him die and then said something equivalent to a comic I saw with "Yeh I guess I am a really bad healer," I let him lie dead on the floor while I kept the MNK alive and kiting Fenrir as best I could, he was only at like 10%. MNK LB'd the SMN kept DOT's goin and Fenrir died. Gave my comm to the MNK and immediately left the dungeon with the dead tank on the floor.

Funny part was the SMN left him dead too and both DD's lol'd at my comment. I got both comms...

I am not sure how you remember WP and AK but both were adjusted to slow players down as it was undermining the fact there are mobs in the way at all with the ilvl increase we undermine that fact any way and then they eased them in AK as it wasn't a concern for them to not punish incoming players.

To be perfectly honest to the term if it is not speed runnable via that certain strategy then others will have to be used in purpose to save time. The mechanics aren't in the way they are the game you play around them like the fact that the whole party can't be invisible. A speed runner runs as fast as they can including breaking exploiting and cheesing what ever they can with in the rules of the run with out modifying the outside system.

So if the system doesn't allow you to lock out 45 mobs at the boss room forcing you to deal with them you do as fast and effective as possible. Very few games have the same speed run tactics even across sequels some games are going to be more strict others less so. That is the issue of the runner not the developer. Just like it is on the developer to fix an issue players found in the system such as 6k dots for smners in coil if the developer decides that is not how they want it completed. Wish for an oversight on the next set of dungeons (I am still waiting for a missing invisible wall to jump pass a boss) but speedrunners aren't made because the system intentionally allows you to do so they do it because they can and they will do it till they can't.

Best wishes and gotta go fast...

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Originally Posted by mdha02

I'm sure somebody already said this but 20 pages is a lot to read. You said people who don't want to speed run should use PF. Why can't people who want to SR use the PF? That way you all know going into it you are capable of speed running.

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Because even using the PF to make a speed run party, the mechanic are what prevent speed runs. Instances like Snowcloak where you can't proceed until you kill a certain number of mobs, such as the area just before the cultists. You have to kill the Ogres and spriggans, before the crocodile will show up, and after killing the croc the Cyclops will show up. It's also the same with the room just before the first snowcloak boss. Yeah you can pull most f the mobs, but after you get the key to the gate you have to kill a bomb and two wolves. Really 3 additional mobs before the boss? the gate won't appear until those 3 are dead. It's a small thing, but the dungeons have a lot of those small things. Which adds up.

That's what I want removed is these small stopping spots.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

That's what I want removed is these small stopping spots.

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Bleh...

It does not matter one way or another to me at all. When healing, I'm actually happy for those spots as I can actually do something other than heal spam mindlessly curing the tank, myself occasionally, or dps when hate is pulled from the tank.

I take it as a breath of fresh air tbqf.

Perhaps I'm just cranky from being up early, but I think it's terrible that I'm dreading the thought of running roulettes today. Not because of the length or forced stops or whatever, but because of speed-whiners. (Please note: This is NOT a shot at any given person here, and should not be taken as such.) Sure, I want my tomes just like everyone else, but I'm at the point - especially at the height of all this relic jazz - that I'd rather run any and every other alternative.

It's terrible that purely to make a point, I overpulled and killed a party (including the friend I was there just to help), then basically threatened them to fall silent and simply take it at non-speed-running pace in Brayflox HM (High Roulette) just days ago. I'm very much not proud of that, and it's only further cemented my abject hatred of that dungeon.

It isn't possible to overpull in brayflox though. Doing brayflox slow is basically torture, and I would try to vote kick you, or just log off and play on my alt.

Most groups are thrilled to get a tank who isn't slow.

Doing Brayflox Any Mode is slow torture, personal opinion. Didn't care for the original either. And by overpulled, I mean I pulled everything in the area between the first and second boss, including the enemies you're apparently not supposed to pull, according to the DPS/Healer there. Problem is, we were split right down the middle on how to do it - I as the tank and my friend as one of the BLMs didn't want to SR, the other BLM and healer did. What happened to "the tank sets the pace of the dungeon" there? Yes I'm geared for it, hell, we were all overgeared for it. Fact is, half the party didn't want to, half did. Who's right or wrong?

I'd have normally just ignored it all, stayed silent and pressed on to just be done with it, but I was admittedly in a bad mood that day. So yeah, I pulled it all, popped Hallowed, then put my weapon away and let the chaos ensue to make a point. I should've Mandervilled. No, not really.

My own personal remedy for this situation is, basically, eat the timer. I didn't enjoy doing what I did, nor am I proud of losing my cool like that. So go ahead and speed run. I'll either see myself out at the start (no matter what role) or just not queue for it in the first place. At least therein lies my actual choice.


EDIT: You have a point, Ellatrix, but the opposite is true as well. While I hesitantly went on to run Expert Roustasha this morning (always Sastasha. Always), the tank surprisingly did not attempt big pulls or try to speed run it, and the healer first spoke up in gratitude of it. Total luck of the draw that an entirely random DF party just so happened to feel the same about how to run that dungeon. It was a good time, and I really didn't care how long it took (Hint: Didn't take long at all with everyone on the same page.)