So votekick >abuse< is practically allowed?

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Originally Posted by Riepah

A Dragoon was kicked from coil turn 1 for unintentionally causing 2 wipes because they were new and nobody bothered to explain the fight to them, kick vote initiated by a raging, arrogant and rude tank.

I talked to a GM about it. Not considered votekick abuse. Examples of vote kick abuse: Kicking people before loot drops to intentionally keep them from getting it, or kicking people before the final boss to intentionally keep them from getting the dungeon clear.

Kicking people for being new? Fair game - but it shouldn't be, the rules need some looking at.

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SE is notorious for being backwardss with their common sense.

I'll put up with some serious ****, if the person is presenting so much trouble that the party would be much better off without them, I'll first ask that person politely to excuse theirself from the party, and if they refuse, I or someone else will initiate the vote kick and I'll apologize to them before they leave. I don't like doing it and makes me feel guilty ever removing someone or asking them to leave, but seriously, I'm not going to waste an extra hour doing something that normally only takes far less time.

Everyone has their playstyles, their own personalities, their own levels of patience, their own time agendas and separate responsibilities(either inside or outside the game). Not every group will see eye to eye or meet each others' expectations.

I only ask that people try try TRY to treat each other with respect and seriously consider another players' feelings before making use of the vote-kick feature.

-Koji Kajael

SE and their GMs being practically useless has been "a thing" since FFXI, but its interesting to hear that vote kicking new players isn't against the ToS, coulda swore I read it was in there before, maybe I just interpreted it wrong but as with "uncommon sense" goes, kicking a new player because they a) dont know any better, or b) arent "properly" geared, should in all honesty be against the ToS.

Once when st was new i was kicked on the last boss for what i can only imagine was loot (no wipes, no complaints). Its the only time ive ever been kicked but it still bugs me a little. Still, there was no chat at all going on so theres really nothing to prove my case. Just move on and think twice before clicking yes the next time someone initiates a votekick, we as a community can set the norm for what is acceptable :)

What bloody data groups are you guys in that you see 3/4 of these examples daily? I've never, ever, in my time of playing this game, ever come across anyone who has abused the vote kick system. Yeah, I'm sure it happens now and then. But people are assholes, that won't change.

If you're witnessing this every day, 3/4 times, then there really might be a problem with you.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

What bloody data groups are you guys in that you see 3/4 of these examples daily? I've never, ever, in my time of playing this game, ever come across anyone who has abused the vote kick system. Yeah, I'm sure it happens now and then. But people are assholes, that won't change.

If you're witnessing this every day, 3/4 times, then there really might be a problem with you.

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Maybe because you were in agreement with those that voted for an eviction of the culprit ? thus of course you have never seen an abuse since you were part of the abusing people.....see what I mean to say ? (dont take this personally..but someone that tells me has never seen it is either of the two liar or part of the problem)

Mei

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Maybe because you were in agreement with those that voted for an eviction of the culprit ? thus of course you have never seen an abuse since you were part of the abusing people.....see what I mean to say ? (dont take this personally..but someone that tells me has never seen it is either of the two liar or part of the problem)

Mei

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Haha, oh my. That is quite the assumption. The thing is, I've never even seen the vote kick function used so far. Never had the need to do so. If you see it non-stop however, and it is aimed at you, then the problem may be there. You as in general.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Haha, oh my. That is quite the assumption. The thing is, I've never even seen the vote kick function used so far. Never had the need to do so. If you see it non-stop however, and it is aimed at you, then the problem may be there. You as in general.

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Never seen the vote kick function used? Do you ever use the DF without a premade group? Or roulettes?

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Never seen the vote kick function used? Do you ever use the DF without a premade group? Or roulettes?

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I'm in the same boat as Jeckyl, and I party up in the DF all the time without a premade.

The only time I've ever seen someone get kicked was if they repeatedly went afk without informing the group, DC'd for long periods of time, or were just being incredibly hostile. Even I only see the vote kick used once or twice a week.

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Originally Posted by ZaenKael

I'm in the same boat as Jeckyl, and I party up in the DF all the time without a premade.

The only time I've ever seen someone get kicked was if they repeatedly went afk without informing the group, DC'd for long periods of time, or were just being incredibly hostile. Even I only see the vote kick used once or twice a week.

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wow, that often ? the last vote kick I see is at sunday and the one before that is like....back in 2.3 something before 2.38

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Originally Posted by ZaenKael

I'm in the same boat as Jeckyl, and I party up in the DF all the time without a premade.

The only time I've ever seen someone get kicked was if they repeatedly went afk without informing the group, DC'd for long periods of time, or were just being incredibly hostile. Even I only see the vote kick used once or twice a week.

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Then you are NOT in the same boat. They explicitly stated "never" having seen the kick function used. Once or twice a week is a damn lot more than "never".

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Then you are NOT in the same boat. They explicitly stated "never" having seen the kick function used. Once or twice a week is a damn lot more than "never".

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Okay you're right, they did say NEVER having seen it used, I thought he said never seen it abused.

Either way, my point stands, once or twice a week and never in an abusive fashion.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

wow, that often ? the last vote kick I see is at sunday and the one before that is like....back in 2.3 something before 2.38

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Honestly I was being generous it might've been less.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

If you are getting kicked often there's probably a reason.

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People arguing that side keep trying to bring "often" into the equation. It only takes once to be abuse.

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Originally Posted by Nimras

Once when st was new i was kicked on the last boss for what i can only imagine was loot (no wipes, no complaints). Its the only time ive ever been kicked but it still bugs me a little. Still, there was no chat at all going on so theres really nothing to prove my case.

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In a sane world, the lack of chat (or more obvious problems) would itself prove your case, as it should have been up to the people who kicked you to prove they had a legitimate reason for it. You shouldn't need to prove the lack of a reason. As you pointed out yourself, there were no complaints, just the kick itself.

Just the other day, I saw this happen to the arcanist in our party during a low-level roulette dungeon. All of a sudden, there was a vote-kick prompt for no apparent reason. The tank and healer must have both agreed to it though, because after I refused to agree to the kick, the arcanist was out anyway. (I was playing NIN at the time.) My best guess is that the healer was hoping to get both DPS slots filled by DoW, so he could have exclusive access to any caster gear that dropped, and the tank must have been a buddy of his to agree to it. I certainly can't think of any other reason for having kicked that arcanist from the group. He hadn't done anything disruptive and was contributing towards clearing the content (not the fastest, perhaps, but passable). I was rather glad that the replacement we got was another arcanist, so if that was the healer's plan, he didn't get his way. Still sucks for that first ACN we had, though. :(

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

People arguing that side keep trying to bring "often" into the equation. It only takes once to be abuse.

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If it only happens once, then I don't see the problem if the person would just nut up and shut up.
There's no need to be sensitive over something so trivial as a single event, as opposed to something chronic.

A thick skin is helpful in life.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Never seen the vote kick function used? Do you ever use the DF without a premade group? Or roulettes?

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I've seen it used once, and that was to remove someone who had been DC'd for 10 minutes.

That was the only time I've seen it used and I've done so many DF groups since I started playing.

I queue up in DF solo or with partial parties all the time and I have only ever seen vote kick used twice. Both times were deserved-- the person in question was being a hostile jerk.

I've been kicked a grand total of once, and that was also deserved, as I had DCed and was unable to get back into the game for a good 15 minutes or so.

Every person I have seen kicked 100% deserved it and justified the existence of the feature.

Was doing a dungeon and the healer was an absolute moron. Lv40 Conjurer in Cutter's Cry. They didnt have swiftcast and only spammed cure the whole time. We wipe three times at first boss. We try to help by explaining they need WHM, regen, and need to use other skills, but this moron doesn't get it. Vote kicked.

Next healer was equally stupid as he kept using Fluid on monsters and sleeping them (I was WAR so overpower woke em up anyway). He repeatedly kept running ahead and sleeping monsters. Ninja and I were getting pissed. Told him he just needed to heal and not do those things. He asks why we're treating him like a noob. We say cause you're acting like one. He was a WHM who knew how to heal though, so despite his stupidity we managed to get through the dungeon.

We wouldnt have made it through the dungeon without votekicking the first healer. Stupid people just need to be kicked out if they're inhibiting a party. Saves time for everyone.

I'd rather have no vote kick option than to have it exist and be abused.

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Originally Posted by Amused

I'd rather have no vote kick option than to have it exist and be abused.

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Vote kick is a good thing to have, I have often seen it used in an appropriate manner, I'd go as far as to call it a "necessary" function. However, vote kick abuse should be a serious offense and should be investigated and punished, not ignored or called okay as it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Vote kick is a good thing to have, I have often seen it used in an appropriate manner, I'd go as far as to call it a "necessary" function. However, vote kick abuse should be a serious offense and should be investigated and punished, not ignored or called okay as it currently is.

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I agree with you, but I sincerely doubt S-E cares enough to enforce the rules, or at least enforce them 100% of the time. I've made multiple reports for vote kick abuse and I still see it happening, in fact, I see it happen more and more as time passes.

I figure we can keep vote abandon as a happy medium where it's equal for everbody.

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Originally Posted by Amused

I'd rather have no vote kick option than to have it exist and be abused.

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Yeah, I'd rather not have that happen.

That would only increase peoples toxicity while using DF. "I can fuck about cause no one can kick me."

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Yeah, I'd rather not have that happen.

That would only increase peoples toxicity while using DF. "I can fuck about cause no one can kick me."

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That's what vote abandon exists for.

I rarely ever see people intentionally sabotaging parties, on the other hand, I frequently see people abuse vote kick.

Even before we had vote kick it was a rarity for people to sabotage a party by not participating, or just screwing things up for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Amused

That's what vote abandon exists for.

I rarely ever see people intentionally sabotaging parties, on the other hand, I frequently see people abuse vote kick.

Even before we had vote kick it was a rarity for people to sabotage a party by not participating, or just screwing things up for everyone.

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You didn't play before there was vote kick. There was so much afk.

Your idea of vote kick abuse is flawed if you see it often, because it doesn't happen often.
-kicking someone for being bad and making it difficult to continue is OK
-kicking someone for being grossly undergeared making them die constantly and being a deadweight is OK
-kicking someone for refusing to go along with the majority strategy as discussed by the party is OK
-kicking someone for not participating is OK

You remember that story, where a dude takes a piss in a massive 300+ million gallon open air reservoir, then a manager wanted to drain the whole thing just because of that? That manager is you wanting to vote abandon because of one person.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You didn't play before there was vote kick.

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Except that I did?

How could you possibly think that I didn't play? What made you jump to that conclusion? My account is legacy, which you could easily find out if you checked my lodestone. I was here at the launch of 1.0 XIV, and I was here at the launch of XIV ARR. Even my forum join date should have given you a hint.

>-kicking someone for being bad and making it difficult to continue is OK
No.
>-kicking someone for being grossly undergeared making them die constantly and being a deadweight is OK
No.
>-kicking someone for refusing to go along with the majority strategy as discussed by the party is OK
Debatable.
>-kicking someone for not participating is OK
Yes.

There was not "so much afk", and certainly not as much afk as there is vote kick abuse occurring.

Funny, I've repeatedly kicked people for the things you say "no" to and yet.. I'm still here! I also specifically asked a GM about those cases and the response was that it would need an investigation, not a flat out "no", which means a kick for those reasons can be justified when used appropriately.

I also find it strange that you say its ok to kick someone for not participating.. but that guy being dead because they are bad and undergeared is also not participating but kicking them is wrong now?

If vote abuse was a real problem, GM policy would change. It isn't, so it doesn't happen anywhere as often as you seem to think it does. Probably because your view is wrong on what is and what is not an improper use of the feature.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

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> -kicking someone for being bad and making it difficult to continue is OK
No, it's not

> -kicking someone for being grossly undergeared making them die constantly and being a deadweight is OK
No, it's not

> -kicking someone for refusing to go along with the majority strategy as discussed by the party is OK
That's only true for pre-made parties where such special conditions were explicitly listed in Party Finder (or otherwise agreed to by everyone involved). In that case, anyone joining the group is considered to have agreed to the rules for that group. Anyone joining through DF, however, has NOT made any such automatic agreement just by being there.

Agreeing to a rule and then not following it is a kickable offence. Refusing to have your ideas forced on them when they're doing their DF run is NOT a kickable offence.

> -kicking someone for not participating is OK
Yes, provided you mean not participating at all.

When I say strategy, I mean approach to completing the duty. The only loot rules in DF is which roll button you are able to press.

You might not think those reasons are ok (even though they are valid reasons!). And that's why vote kick needs at least 50% of the vote to pass. Amazing concept!

You are not entitled to be useless in DF if a majority wants you gone. Please consider excellent Single Player RPG such as other games in the Final Fantasy series where you may interact with NPCs and not other players, or many other great single player open-world sandbox games where you are free to play as you want. Because when you enter DF, there are expectations that you perform your job role in an adequate manner to complete the duty. If a majority of the players in that duty decide you are not, vote kick is justified.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

If it only happens once, then I don't see the problem if the person would just nut up and shut up.
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What kind of foolishness is this? Sure think skin helps, but not everyone is armored like a turtle or armadillo.

An attitude like this is wrong on so many level. How about if some hacked your account and you don't even talk to SE customer service about it. It only happened once... right on. That makes a lot of sense. How about don't call the cops because your neighbor is being executed by the local gangbanger? They can only get killed once. This is why neighborhoods go down the drain btw. If there is a real problem, people should bring it up and discuss it. There can be debate about whether the problem is real or not, but telling people to be quiet, taking away their free speech rights, is non-starter.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

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You are not entitled to be useless in DF if a majority wants you gone. ...

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A troll being afk, deliberately wiping is being useless, or perhaps even worse than useless. But a new/newer player learning the dungeon for the firs time are not being useless, nor are players gearing up. The majority is not right every time and there are cases where the minority must be protected. Because we are not privy to the GM cases reports, how well SE handles the vote kick abuse is impossible to determine, but I've seen people get penalties for vote kick abuse, as well as seeing trolls get penalties for trolling.

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Originally Posted by Amused

That's what vote abandon exists for.

I rarely ever see people intentionally sabotaging parties, on the other hand, I frequently see people abuse vote kick.

Even before we had vote kick it was a rarity for people to sabotage a party by not participating, or just screwing things up for everyone.

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Yeah sorry, I'm not going to slough through the entirety of a dungeon, to the last boss and than vote abandon because some guy is just refusing to move and is mouthing off. Not happening.

I'll just kick him, get a replacement and move on with my life. Simpler.

This is why you're not going to see S-E step into most matters regarding player disputes, they'll step in if you've been vote-kicked in DF due to reasons about loot sure, but you won't see them step in if a player gets vote-kicked for being below the recommended item level, or because a player wiped repeatedly to the same mechanic.

There is no right or wrong answer regarding those situations, regardless of what anyone wants to believe, so S-E's best bet is just to leave it up to majority vote, because if they take a side, that would lead to more abuse of either the vote kick system, or of people abusing the fact that they can't be vote kicked over a particular reason.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Funny, I've repeatedly kicked people for the things you say "no" to and yet.. I'm still here! I also specifically asked a GM about those cases and the response was that it would need an investigation, not a flat out "no", which means a kick for those reasons can be justified when used appropriately.

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Good job, you've just proven again what people already knew and have been discussing here. That's the very reason people are asking for things to change.

Just because SE is too lazy/uncaring to deal with cases, doesn't mean what they therefore currently allow isn't abuse.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Good job, you've just proven again what people already knew and have been discussing here. That's the very reason people are asking for things to change.

Just because SE is too lazy/uncaring to deal with cases, doesn't mean what they therefore currently allow isn't abuse.

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So you're asking for one player to continue being the reason a group can't complete a duty with the only resolution to be vote abandon? No, the way things are now is working in an acceptable manner.

Did I stepped into Tumblr?

I've been kicked from a party three times, twice for dc and once for severe lag. Never considered any abuse even tho they waited till the last boss in Snow cloak. But still didn't consider it abuse because A) I was heals B) lag on the last boss almost=death.

I'm not going to baby players who are just plain bad. New players are fine; I don't mind wiping a couple of times in a dungeon because someone is learning the ropes or is a little bit undergeared. What I DO mind is when they die over and over again to the same mechanics and don't learn anything from it. If that happens, they're out. My patience only goes so far.

While I'm not going to argue with you about there being players that are just plain bad (generally either trolling or just don't care), as someone who takes a particular interest in at least trying to teach new players I think you severely underestimate how bad being new can be. "New" can mean anything from swapping roles but knowing a dungeon to "this is my first MMO or game like it and I've only done a small handful of dungeons and there are so many buttons... HELP!". And if you are willing to help the latter (excellent though they may end up being with enough time and effort) you might just find yourself wiping to the same mistake or to the same small handful of mistakes for quite a long time.

Are there situations when vote kick is warranted? Absolutely.

However, the lesser of two evils would be to remove the function and just use vote abandon, as I said before, as the solution that provides and equivalent outcome for all parties involved.

The community has demonstrated that they're not capable of using the system responsibly.

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Originally Posted by Amused

Are there situations when vote kick is warranted? Absolutely.

However, the lesser of two evils would be to remove the function and just use vote abandon.....

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That is not correct. The lesser of two evils is the status quo where players need to actively report vote kick abuse. The vote abandon would concede too much to the trolls who wants to either go AFK or force wipes on purpose. Vote abandon in those cases will be a win for them.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

That is not correct. The lesser of two evils is the status quo where players need to actively report vote kick abuse. The vote abandon would concede too much to the trolls who wants to either go AFK or force wipes on purpose. Vote abandon in those cases will be a win for them.

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Just that actively reporting vote kick abuse doesn't do a thing, because SE has a silly definition of what does and what doesn't constitute "vote kick abuse".

However, I also agree that vote kick is a necessary function, vote abandon by itself, as you say, is just making it even easier for people to grief others.