Primal mounts and their effect on player health/sanity.

make them sellable on AH
fixed!

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Originally Posted by Makado

I'm saying you can have everything. Not that everyone will. But my main point is they are defeating the purpose of having the mounts on the primals (for people to keep running them) by having a drop rate of basically nothing. It has nothing to do with being upset at how hard it is to get them, people aren't doing them (what they wanted to happen) anyways.

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Again with this? we either are missing each others point or it's something you aren't getting. what i am getting at

Is that if you can't get something this trival then so be it. it is a collectors item, an item you more then likely will use for a week or two, then forget you have it and even then only to show it off, if that is the type of person you are. No one in there right mind would try to collect everything in the game, i don't even think you'll have the space to even attempt that unless you have a stable of retainers. so that was more or less sarcasm. but if someone is trying to get everything (wants this useless item but is upset it won't drop for them) are getting mad, then they just look silly crying over it.

Did we clear that up now?

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Originally Posted by Volcano

An effort to obtain a mount, that moves no quicker then the many other mounts in the game, it's just simply a unicorn with different colors. For me personally, it is a wasted effort. and my character is all about fire so i wouldn't even mind the fire one, but i could careless if i ever saw it. because it does nothing special but look cool.

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That you see no value in these mounts is completely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

That you see no value in these mounts is completely irrelevant.

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as is your comment pointing that out, Your point?

You'll have to excuse me, i'm just not one to complain and whine about things i cannot obtain easily. Perhaps i am the only one in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Makado

I'm saying you can have everything. Not that everyone will. But my main point is they are defeating the purpose of having the mounts on the primals (for people to keep running them) by having a drop rate of basically nothing. It has nothing to do with being upset at how hard it is to get them, people aren't doing them (what they wanted to happen) anyways.

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People run primals consistently for the gear to glamour or to desythn and at times even use them still. The mount is just a bonus extra bonus every so often and usually not the main reason people run the primals for.

Guys...really, just stop responding to Volcano, they are just trolling. Anything you say to add to the discussion they will just attack and belittle you because they do not share your opinion. Obvious trolling, so just end it.

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Originally Posted by Makado

See, the point is SE wants these as an incentive to have players run the old primals. But with the drop rate, no one wants to because...why waste your time? I used to do them all the time when they were newer and I've never even seen a single one drop of any type. They automatically fail their mission of "wanting players to keep doing them" by having a drop rate that is almost 0. They could just make it like a 10% chance and I think people would be happy.

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Agree with this for sure, even if I wanted to do some EX primals there are barely any PFs for it and no one joins for them either, makes it even harder to even attempt to work at getting the mounts. I've done like around 400 wins of the EX primals combined and I figured I did enough to earn one mount by now, but still nothing :/

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Originally Posted by Miste

Guys...really, just stop responding to Volcano, they are just trolling. Anything you say to add to the discussion they will just attack and belittle you because they do not share your opinion. Obvious trolling, so just end it.

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Oh yes, because someones opinions =Troll, the irony in this post. i know when i see a bunch of kids playing in a mud pin to let them be or i'll get this.

Nice try. but no. as i don't "troll"

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Originally Posted by Volcano

as is your comment pointing that out, Your point?

You'll have to excuse me, i'm just not one to complain and whine about things is cannot obtain easily. Perhaps i am the only one in this regard.

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The point is twofold:

- your direct response to my argument is completely irrelevant since you fail to address how obtaining a mount relies more on luck than effort, but instead go "oh, the item is crap so it doesn't matter".

- you wanting others to "work" (a lot by the way), for an item that you personally see no value in makes you one hell of a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

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If they implemented a token system where after 50-100 specific fights you can trade in the tokens to obtain a mount (or even crafting materials), then you could say that obtaining these was a matter of effort.

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Not sure why but there are a few people who seem to think tokens or probability growth mechanics means it /has to be/ the easy way out (it can be, but definitely does not have to be). Though for players mental sanity I think its best to mix it with other systems-- tokens are extremely fair they also do not hide the grind at all, which is why having a few different behaving "fair" systems isn't that bad of an idea like probability growth, tokens, guaranteed loot on lockouts.

Anyway to the few who think booting simplistic RNG to the curb means wanting everything handed to you. Just because 1% is used here a lot, the chance after 100 tries to have won the pony at least once would be about 63% (that is chance using 100 as the number of rolls). 63% chance it happened at least once, out of 100 tries.. thats not that awesome.

63% in 100
87% in 200
95% in 300
98% in 400 <--- not 100%, because of large population of FFXIV players there is a high chance to have a few people really really unfortunate to be here.

Also, this is for one pony at 1%, so if you have to share it with 7 other players- good luck. I'd rather not want to imagine the % chance is 1% for 8 players, so I'm going to go on to use 1% chance as the drop rate for yourself (to get everyone in your group a pony at 1% could easily get into thousands of runs)....

So assuming 1% is a personal percent most people will have the mount in 100 tries but there will be people heading into 500 because of the cruel and terrible nature of using fixed RNG on everything (imo). We have the memory space and power to calculate "fair" opportunities and I believe we should.

I think %'s that start to grow the closer you get to the desired top goal would be an optional way to have another "fair feeling" system. Specifically exponential growth when close and specially after hitting the median or average desired rate. (at 89 tries? roll chance is 10%, at 115 tries? roll chance is 65% at 150 tries? Next time you will get it.) Or in terms of tokens setting the number of token cost on the approximated desired "middle fair ground"-for example saying most people will have it by 100 (greater than 50% = majority) then just make it cost around 100 tokens.

Anyway, I think using generic RNG on anything of matter now days is just silly. But as an aside note, I have -not- done any extreme 100 times.. I couldn't tell you what the actual % chance is but whatever it is I'd much prefer it to be something friendly and fun.. like a video game. Not being able to have hope != to fun, imo.


Final aside, a number of games (recent competitive games) use a sort of self correcting system for critical hits just because it makes them more dependable and the fights more strategic and less about luck (too much luck it will self correct, not enough it will correct the other way), because luck doesn't equal strategy but knowing exact numbers leads to high manipulability ("I'll critical hit every 10 hits, im going to load my critical and then use my strongest spell to own this noob" = possibly too much skill and strategy involved for casual players lol).. having a fair aiming system is pretty cool.. i m o. :D

tl;dr: Besides cost holding extra variables and code there is little reason to use old RNG systems for anything worthwhile when you can have "variable" yet fair systems instead.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

People run primals consistently for the gear to glamour or to desythn and at times even use them still. The mount is just a bonus extra bonus every so often and usually not the main reason people run the primals for.

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Eh I would say there are few people who farm against 7 other players for a single desynth chance or keep farming them for a ring ear or wrist glamour item...and with myth coming out peoples ears they can just buy the myth items and skip them altogether.

Just a point of interest, obtaining all mounts gives something special. What that is I don't know but that in itself is a great incentive.. one that too few care about though sadly..

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Just a point of interest, obtaining all mounts gives something special. What that is I don't know but that in itself is a great incentive.. one that too few care about though sadly..

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I bet it is NyanPony. XD

http://jolicode.github.io/opengov-co.../nyan-pony.gif

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Just a point of interest, obtaining all mounts gives something special. What that is I don't know but that in itself is a great incentive.. one that too few care about though sadly..

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I believe that something special is being added in 2.4? Along with the reward for completing all beast tribe quests.

My guess is it's Slepinir. I can't think of any other kind of legendary horse. Plus you're obtaining a horse of darkness (Nightmare) and a horse from every other element. Makes sense in an FF-cosmo kind of way. lol

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Originally Posted by Makado

Eh I would say there are few people who farm against 7 other players for a single desynth chance or keep farming them for a ring ear or wrist glamour item...and with myth coming out peoples ears they can just buy the myth items and skip them altogether.

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The payout for desythn is worth it at the current time. Some of them sell for nearly 3-4 million gil. At the current time on famfrit a t5-t6 carry run is only 600k. 600k split between 7 people is very little compared to 3-4 million gil.

Myth is only easy to obtain once you have the means to do so and usually by than you don't need the myths anymore. For newer players, its a different story. I struggled for 65 minutes yesterday in [Normal] Wanderer's Palace with 3 newer players for very few myth points. They were wearing many of the story obtained items and lower level dungeon gears prior to Wanderer's Palace. People who just start and need the myths have a long ways to go before they have the means to farm myth easily. They just can't skip to myth easy mode. They need the gear to make myth farming, easy mode.

Yeah considering these drop around 1% of the time if that, 800 to 1 odds for these mounts is pretty bad. I mean if there was a fail safe to the luck like doing a ex primal 500 times gave you the mount by achievement, maybe but you could easily do this 2000 times plus and never get one. How that is "incentive" is beyond me.

If you didn't want to go the achievement route SE, instead of a 1% chance for 1 mount that 8 people cast lots on, you could make a 1% chance for everyone in the party to all get a mount straight into their inventory. That would bring the odds to 100 to 1. A lot of ways to create more incentive then 800 to 1 odds. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

Exactly, some people just wont accept the fact that they can't get everything in this game, and would rather ruin it for people who actually care having stuff the majority of the players will never get.

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I think every one of us has the right to not accept such a fact since we all pay every month as their customers. lol just sayin'

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Just a point of interest, obtaining all mounts gives something special. What that is I don't know but that in itself is a great incentive.. one that too few care about though sadly..

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With current direction FFXIV is going i guess you will bet them all in gold saucer and toss a coin...
if right you will lose all but get a new one (Rainbowdash)
if wrong you lose all and get 10 gil

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Originally Posted by Xystic

Myth is only easy to obtain once you have the means to do so and usually by than you don't need the myths anymore. For newer players, its a different story. I struggled for 65 minutes yesterday in [Normal] Wanderer's Palace with 3 newer players for very few myth points.

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In the course of 2 hours, I was i90 on my freshly 50 WHM via hunts, because trading seals in for them as well as the myth it drops is rediculous. So, not really - New players can get to i90 pretty fast and easy.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

In the course of 2 hours, I was i90 on my freshly 50 WHM via hunts, because trading seals in for them as well as the myth it drops is rediculous. So, not really - New players can get to i90 pretty fast and easy.

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Yeah but with the current state of Hunts, not every new player can easily get 200 seals in 2 hours. Maybe 100 if they are lucky, during prime time, and assuming they manage to get three A ranks mob. Now if SE is adding seals to dungeons, and modify the hunt mark to include lower level dungeons as their primary target, ALL players (newbie included) can easily have 200 seals by the time they reach level 50. A reward of measly 5-10 seals every dungeon runs will adds up very fast overtime. I think lower level dungeons should have myth rewards from Stone Vigil forward, 30 myth per run is not that much, but for new players it will let them have at least two level 90 gears by the time they finished main mission.

I'm really glad to see this thread getting so many responses. These mounts are practically nonexistent and are really not an incentive at all, given you could throw yourself at primal runs for months and not even see one, let alone win a roll. Keep pressing SE for change, and we might get somewhere. I like the idea that the drops rate be rare, but that everyone in the party gets one.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

People run primals consistently for the gear to glamour or to desythn and at times even use them still. The mount is just a bonus extra bonus every so often and usually not the main reason people run the primals for.

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Oh boy. To fix your confusion. The desynthable items are the weapons from the hard mode primals, not Extreme. The Mounts are from the extreme modes, and the jewelry drops and such from Extremes are NOT desynthable.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

The key is to put it somewhere between too easy and too ridiculous to bother.

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That's exactly it. If you make it too easy, the players will all have their mount and nobody will do it anymore, and if you make it too hard, most people won't bother doing it because, well, who has 800 battles to lose. What eventually happens is the exact current situation: finding a group to do Leviathan XM when you want a weapon is almost impossible, and it's hard even when you're in a LS or FC because noone is motivated by the drop rates of the mirror and mount.

And the comparison to PLD & WAR mounts is good: I will, as a PLD, get the lion at some point, but it won't be because I was motivated to play PLD for the mount, but because I already was PLD and will eventually achieve the number of required fights. And it will come as a surprise, I'm sure. And let me add it won't be deserved at all (compared to other jobs).

Do you think you can get a rainbow unicorn from crossbreeding the primal mounts ?

Well, I got a light blue horse with a tiny little horn by putting Unicorn and Enbarr in my FC chocobo stable for 150 days. Only problem is it has wings and a beak too. Guess I shouldn't have left my chocobo there too.

I have to agree that the mount COULD be a good incentive... if the drop rate wasn't so dismally appalling. Especially for fights like titan EX.... I know a ton of players who want to clear it, but cannot get a good group of 8 together because there is "no point" when people assume nothing useful will drop (and 99% of the time, the mount doesn't drop).

Even if the drop rate was increased somewhat for older EX primal fights (keep it low for newer ones) it would help improve people's motivation to farm the fights for the sake of mounts

I wish SE could implement something with the Rowena Tokens. Maybe, 10 tokens for a mount? Would give those who retired from EX Primals after getting all the weapons they needed, a reason to continue to do the weekly clears. Or, it would give those of us something to do with those tokens who kept doing the weekly and have stockpiled 50+ tokens :)

It's an incentive to keep you paying, not to keep you playing.

I think having the mount as an achievement award is a fine idea but I don't believe it could be rare this way as i don't underestimate the dedication that many players have to a brutal grind. And to be honest i assume that the only appeal is the rarity, so it boils down to i want to get it easily but no one else, because i assume the worst about people who whine here.

I feel like the only person here who likes some vanity items being really rare. If you've ever gotten a super rare drop in any other game, it feels amazing! It's not an accomplishment (unless you want to brag about the hundreds or thousands of times you did something); but it is really great. I've seen a couple of these rare mounts running around and I just think, "that person must be so happy to have gotten that!" Sure, I'd like it too, but I don't feel animosity toward that person nor do I feel like I deserve one.

SE put some fun random drops into the game. The reason people want one so bad is because they know they probably won't get one. There are plenty of mounts to earn. You don't need these primal mounts. If this was the only way to get a mount or the only way to get a faster mount, then I would understand.

It reminds me of all the people trying their hardest to bring back the Lightning event (before we were told it was coming back). But for most people it wasn't too much to say, "hey, the event is over. You'll never get that stuff," and it is much easier to accept. But with this...the thought that it is possible and they don't have it...just eats away at them. Please don't ruin this for the lucky people who did get one or will get one.

Read something about Token based mount rewards. Agree completely. In fact, I feel like they should implement that for all of their RNG design. Either up the token requirement or more achievement based mounts.

Or you can always do what I do, gradually log in less and less because all new content they've added since 2.1 is so excruciatingly grindy because of RNG. IMO, Yoshi P. et al, need to think more horizontal progression and slow down a bit on verticals.

I've found a new found interest in D3 RoS, that's also RNG driven, but there's a lot of horizontal variety. Not exactly apples and oranges, just a comparison.

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Originally Posted by Tonka

I feel like the only person here who likes some vanity items being really rare. If you've ever gotten a super rare drop in any other game, it feels amazing! It's not an accomplishment (unless you want to brag about the hundreds or thousands of times you did something); but it is really great. I've seen a couple of these rare mounts running around and I just think, "that person must be so happy to have gotten that!" Sure, I'd like it too, but I don't feel animosity toward that person nor do I feel like I deserve one.

SE put some fun random drops into the game. The reason people want one so bad is because they know they probably won't get one. There are plenty of mounts to earn. You don't need these primal mounts. If this was the only way to get a mount or the only way to get a faster mount, then I would understand.

It reminds me of all the people trying their hardest to bring back the Lightning event (before we were told it was coming back). But for most people it wasn't too much to say, "hey, the event is over. You'll never get that stuff," and it is much easier to accept. But with this...the thought that it is possible and they don't have it...just eats away at them. Please don't ruin this for the lucky people who did get one or will get one.

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Having fun through interaction > having fun by having what others can't have. Imo. Every item should be fairly and realistically obtainable.

For probability the % chance can be discussed as fair but the end results cannot be. If someone does 1 run, gets it, vs someone who did 1000 runs.. it is pretty stupid system imho.


I can understand the idea of being "special" "the lucky one" but I think the imaginary "fun points" is far greater when people can actually have hope and direction, and can experience said content (interaction). For very very few things I suppose the content dying forever makes sense- but otherwise there is no reason content should be dead and gone forever (seasonal vanity is on a yearly cycle, thats lockout enough imo- I mean honestly a year loot lockout.. a year.. its enough to make the event exciting for players who missed it or pieces of it).

imo imo (how fun is distributed is all "imo" talks anyways lol).

I prefer my MMORPGs with time and effort over luck any day of the week and those elemental horses are by far the coolest looking mounts in the game imo regardless of rarity. A real shame they barred them behind such ridiculous odds (800 to 1). If you factor in that no static in their right mind would farm these for long and if you were to pug it, you would get a lot of fail groups no matter how hard you try to carry them, echo or not, with 1 shot kills in every primal ex.

Even with a good farm group, you are looking at 10-20mins a kill. Most farm groups don't last longer then 8 kills. Say you're insanely lucky and see one drop, then you got to lot against 7 other people.. you lose the roll. Now you have to start all over. Pretty lame.

Please reconsider the ways to obtain these SE. I'd do ex primals more if there was any real incentive. Just take the casting lots out of it and leave 1% rare so everyone in the party gets one when 1% triggers and everyone would be happy.

I hear ya. I know from reading this thread that pretty much nobody agrees with me, so I won't be surprised when SE caves.

I just don't want anyone to misunderstand me. It's not about lording my luck over everyone, should I ever get one. It's about having items in the game that are super special. Exciting to see and get (should you be so lucky). There are quite a few different ways to get mounts. This is but one way.

There are a couple mounts from 1.0 that are exclusive and can never be earned again (I hope). That's content people can never have the "hope" to experience. With the primal mounts, at least there is some hope.

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Originally Posted by Camate

These mounts are intended to be rare items for players who have already cleared the extreme primal battles, to incentivize players to continue and challenge these fights. At this time there are no plans to make any adjustments to the primal mounts, but if anything changes we will be sure to update you.

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I agree with Camate.

Not everything in the game needs to be so easily handed to you. If you dont feel that the mount is worth farming then certainly you wont appreciate it if you get it so why would you farm it? For those who do find it worth while, and enjoy playing the game dont mind farming it because they enjoy farming the fights to obtain the item. If youre someone who just wants the mount and dont want to farm the fight then you obviously dont want the mount/item bad enough and i suggest focusing your efforts on something you do enjoy. there is so much in this game fussing over 1 specific item/mount is beyond silly.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Not everything in the game needs to be so easily handed to you. If you dont feel that the mount is worth farming then certainly you wont appreciate it if you get it so why would you farm it? For those who do find it worth while, and enjoy playing the game dont mind farming it because they enjoy farming the fights to obtain the item. If youre someone who just wants the mount and dont want to farm the fight then you obviously dont want the mount/item bad enough and i suggest focusing your efforts on something you do enjoy.

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If you were able to farm it, that would be fine like do an ex primal 500 times (10-20mins per win) but with these current odds it is really not, which is the point we are making. People that have one are just very lucky. You could farm these forever until you died irl and never get one all depending on luck which is the major problem. So earning them isn't really a option. Kinda like winning the lottery.

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Originally Posted by Kota_Foxfrey

If you were able to farm it, that would be fine like do an ex primal 500 times (10-20mins per win) but with these current odds it is really not, which is the point we are making. People that have one are just very lucky. You could farm these forever until you died irl and never get one all depending on luck which is the major problem. So earning them isn't really a option. Kinda like winning the lottery.

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And there's no way a filthy casual like me will ever be able to do an ex primal 500 times. There are achievements with in-game rewards for doing content a ridiculous amount of times. What does it hurt to have a small handful of lottery-like rewards?

I completely understand people wanting to get all of the things, but I just don't see how it takes away from the game to have a few very low drop-rate vanity items. If the drop rate is not worth your time, then don't do the dungeon. The mounts are meant to be rare.

Anyway, once SE inevitably caves (and I kind of hope they do since it'd make so many of you happy and I'm kinda alone on this one), people will get it and it'll be just another ho-hum mount that gets bundled with rest. Nothing all that great.

I still think we should get a reward for killing Leviathan 500+ times with no mirror or mounts dropping (like me) or at least a in-game title that declares you a Legend against all odds when you meet the no mirror no mount drops after a set number of kills.

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Originally Posted by Tonka

And there's no way a filthy casual like me will ever be able to do an ex primal 500 times.

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Why would you care? Unless that is a 2nd character, you don't even have a single lv50 so I'm not sure why you're posting about endgame issues that you haven't even experienced yet.

There's nothing wrong with being casual but the mounts are meant to be incentive for players who have cleared the primals as stated by SE. And it is a slap in the face to players who want to follow that incentive when the odds are so bad that you done it over 500 times and never even seen a horse drop much less lot on one against 7 others. So when you put that much effort in, let me know how you feel about their current system.

Lol @ "filthy casual". XD

So because he doesn't have a Level 50 character in this game, yet, he isn't allowed to have an opinion on this? Yeah ok.