Please re-evaluate the difficulty of previous endgame content on the DF

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Originally Posted by Fendred

The difference between Allagan Rot and Dive Bombs is that with Allagan Rot, after the players die once, they are formulating a strategy to deal with it.

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When players die to Divebomb, they start formulating a strategy to deal with it. No difference.

Btw, CT2 has divebombs, they work the exact same way, just more forgiving.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

When players die to Divebomb, they start formulating a strategy to deal with it. No difference.

Btw, CT2 has divebombs, they work the exact same way, just more forgiving.

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Actually the ones in Syrcus Tower work like T9 Divebombs.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

My point was that you're constantly going to be thrown with new mechanics, where each one will kill you if you fail to perform them. That is the entire nature of mechanics. If you don't perform them, you die.

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Yes, I totally agree. That isn't what I'm talking about though. I'm simply saying that those new players who were awesome enough to get a group for that content aren't going to be literate enough in the camera controls to deal with the mechanic as easily as they deal with allagan rot or the turn 4 dance. There needed to be some kind of fight earlier in the game that forced the players into learn about those controls in the same way they were forced to learn how to use the other UI elements. That wasn't done, so the fight had a higher attrition rate than it really needed to back when it was still current content.

This reminds me of that one time I was born, I literally walked out of the womb and started dancing ballet while reciting complex math equations. Wait, no. That didn't happen because I learned to do things. Practice makes perfect...or for some unfortunate people it doesn't. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Yes, I totally agree. That isn't what I'm talking about though. I'm simply saying that those new players who were awesome enough to get a group for that content aren't going to be literate enough in the camera controls to deal with the mechanic as easily as they deal with allagan rot or the turn 4 dance. There needed to be some kind of fight earlier in the game that forced the players into learn about those controls in the same way they were forced to learn how to use the other UI elements. That wasn't done, so the fight had a higher attrition rate than it really needed to.

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No, there didn't.
That's how mechanics work. When you encounter them, you learn how to deal with them however they present themselves. If you couldn't instantly figure out that you needed to start looking around the map the first time you see a divebomb go off, you have issues.
Are you going to tell me that Ifrit is cheap too because you had to turn your camera around to see which way he's charging from? It's the exact same thing.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

No, there didn't.
That's how mechanics work. When you encounter them, you learn how to deal with them however they present themselves.
Are you going to tell me that Ifrit is cheap too because you had to turn your camera around to see which way he's charging from? It's the exact same thing.

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Sounds like enough camera practice for T5 to me, you need to look around to see where the attack is coming from.

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Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad

You would think that any group that was able to even get to divebombs would figure out that something appearing over someones head would indicate that something dangerous was about to happen.
You have no argument whatsoever, just go. You're obviously unable to pick up on game mechanics. If you're having a problem in duty finder, it's probably because of you.

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Two assumptions being made here.

1) He doesn't understand mechanics. He's downed the content obviously he understands it enough.

2) DF or PF parties having fully experienced people who have seen all of the mechanics of the fight (even in those parties that claim to be experienced). Just because a mark appears over your head doesn't mean it tells you what to do with the mechanic. Much less if you have new people in a fight, it only takes one person to mess up divebombs and kill several people. One person not stacked, while marked can have twin change direction and could charge through the group from the side and knock all the people into the nearby walls.

Content should not need echo nor nerfs to reduce the difficulty unless its completely impossible for someone to beat it like twintania in the beginning, the content in this game is not hard even if you're a monkey, a monkey could beat the content in this game stop crying for nerfs cause you can't beat a fight and just learn how to do it.

I agree with the elitists on this one and this is a straight out in favor of them argument, hands down. The old-content has been nerfed and we have got echo buff on top of that.

It is getting extremely irritating and tiresome that 90% percent of Duty Finders do NOT even watch a youtube video - Here https://www.youtube.com/user/Xehanort1227. Problem solved.


No one is perfect but PLEASE stop entering expecting to be trained fully or be explained fully of the fight. This self-entitlement is ridiculous, disrespectful and insulting. No one is a perfect player at first, including myself and I have done mistakes as well. But just stop entering (EXtreme fights anyone) repeatedly (same players after multiple wiped groups) begging to be carried. You are going to be flamed as hard as possible and rightly so because if you do lack the basic common sense of extreme/endgame content = must do my homework then you are the only person to blame. No one else, not the game (which is a challenging one for the new players so there is no excuse to blame the game), it is you and only you. Get it hard-wired into your DNA. You can't force others to do your job.

The worse of you are the silent types. All my hate goes to you because you don't even bother to say that "I am new" or even ask "So how does this fight work?", "Why did I die?", "What do I have to do?". Instead you embrace this stupidious gold silence of yours and wipe the rest of the group until you repeat and repeat and in some extreme situations, the whole group cannot progress or succeed because of one player.

FFXIV is not that type of game.

I think they should nerf the damage done when you step on the edges of the arena. It's never telegraphed that you will instantly die, in fact no other bosses outside of T5 and T9 will instantly kill you by stepping into the brightly colored and alluring arena edge. SE being the equal opportunity employer that I know them should rectify this raiding atrocity, and mail me a few million gil while they are at it.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Yes, I totally agree. That isn't what I'm talking about though. I'm simply saying that those new players who were awesome enough to get a group for that content aren't going to be literate enough in the camera controls to deal with the mechanic as easily as they deal with allagan rot or the turn 4 dance. There needed to be some kind of fight earlier in the game that forced the players into learn about those controls in the same way they were forced to learn how to use the other UI elements. That wasn't done, so the fight had a higher attrition rate than it really needed to back when it was still current content.

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I don't know why you keep mentioning they HAVE to learn camera control for divebombs. I have never moved my camera when divebombs are coming down. When I first went into the fight I read guides to help me know whats coming (there were a few by the time I got to T5) and I found a way to adjust without having to move the camera. As a lala if I got the marker I wouldn't see it over the taller races (have a few roegies in my group) so I turned up the volume for battle sounds, turned off the music and just listened. Everyone was stacked well enough and you move when ya hear it. If camera movements aren't your thing you find a way to adjust. I feel you don't think highly enough of the standard players capabilities.

Please do not reevaluate content difficulty anymore >.>
We have a game with bosses that are actually fun to fight why make them easier and easier ? are people really proud killing primes/coil with echo and nerfs ??
And boss mechanics should not even be discussed as mechanics and challange are the main point of bosses in all games! whatever mechanic it is or however it has been introduced.
We should be super happy when new unknown/weird mechanics are introduced in some prime/coil turn, it makes it more unique and more challanging.
now stop asking our game to be easier and stop asking to remove awesome mechanics , there is already many content not requiring much challange for you guys!

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Originally Posted by EvaEva

I think they should nerf the damage done when you step on the edges of the arena. It's never telegraphed that you will instantly die

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Does it matter? If your group can't figure that out when the first player dies to it, something is wrong. The effects of Fireball marker is also not told to you before you see what's gonna happen, then you know what will happen the next time.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

Does it matter? If your group can't figure that out when the first player dies to it, something is wrong. The effects of Fireball marker is also not told to you before you see what's gonna happen, then you know what will happen the next time.

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She is being sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by Ryaan

I don't know why you keep mentioning they HAVE to learn camera control for divebombs. I have never moved my camera when divebombs are coming down. When I first went into the fight I read guides to help me know whats coming (there were a few by the time I got to T5) and I found a way to adjust without having to move the camera. As a lala if I got the marker I wouldn't see it over the taller races (have a few roegies in my group) so I turned up the volume for battle sounds, turned off the music and just listened. Everyone was stacked well enough and you move when ya hear it...

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My original point is that the difficulty curve for leveling content was set too low. Players should have been dealing with fights at least at the level of the HM primal battles at levels 45 to 50 and not afterwards. MMO communities tend to be more forgiving of failure during the leveling experience than end game because the expectations are different, and there isn't a case of statistical power inflation. The reason this is not the case is that SE needed money. They knew they could maximize initial box sales by making a game that has mass appeal, but little staying power with casual gamers due to the requirement of end game difficulty to maintain mainstream gamer interest. However, part of creating a good MMORPG is understanding the social ramifications for different design decisions and how those ramifications effect the ability of players to complete the content. SE purposely made a design decision that was good for their wallets in a time when they were strapped for cash, but not good for the health of their community.

The whole Twintania ranting was the result of a bunch of people taking my original post out of context because the topic of the thread has them up in arms and attacking anything in sight.

I can't imagine some people being able to clear a dungeon if it was tuned up to the difficulty of a HM Primal. HM Primals just aren't for everyone. Dungeons are meant to be able to jump in, learn boss mechanics on the fly and come out victorious. HM Primals just aren't like that, and neither are EX Primals, or Coil of Bahamut. Trying to make the early dungeons harder just to make it a smoother transition into the harder content just wouldn't be right in my opinion.

There's Crystal tower, Srycus Tower, myth and soldiery gear. All of which you can get without too much dying to boss mechanics.

Stop nerfing the bosses, infact buff them. Remove the echo buff entirely. Why should people who enjoy the challenge of the original game state have to put up with children spitting out their dummy that they can't just get a 1-shot free win off everything? I'm sorry, but nothing should be free. If players couldn't learn anything in their road up to the level cap and still refuse to learn once they get there, then why should other capable players who have been willing to learn these fundamentals be punished for others who lack patience?

Totally off topic, but I'd personally put it down to the majority of people who never learnt their job roles by perma zerg rush spamming fates to get to the cap, then wondered why they never learnt anything.

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Originally Posted by Ansatsu

Stop nerfing the bosses, infact buff them. Remove the echo buff entirely. Why should people who enjoy the challenge of the original game state have to put up with children spitting out their dummy that they can't just get a 1-shot free win off everything? I'm sorry, but nothing should be free. If players couldn't learn anything in their road up to the level cap and still refuse to learn once they get there, then why should other capable players who have been willing to learn these fundamentals be punished for others who lack patience?

Totally off topic, but I'd personally put it down to the majority of people who never learnt their job roles by perma zerg rush spamming fates to get to the cap, then wondered why they never learnt anything.

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Exactly enough with echo/nerfs/and removing titan ex to unlock levi etc.

Actually the lower level dungeons can be harder than the level 50 "farm" dungeons. I think the challenge from 15-50 and the "farm dungeons" after 50 are somewhat good, a few are "harder" than the others, but overall you have plenty of options. None of the "hard mode" primals are hard, it teaches you basic mechanic for Extreme. The real problem is pretty much people do not learn how to play their jobs properly. Most of the difficult contents can be cleared if you practice enough and learn the pattern and communicate with your group. Problem is, everyone expect "FAST, ZERG, INSTA WIN, NOW" for the hardest content. Sorry, not gonna happen, DIE DIE DIE and TRY again and get better :)

I truly agree with Hybris. MOSTLY if not all endgame bosses are scripted fights. If you dont want to learn the mechanics of the game then you should play a different MMO. Work on your player caliber skills and you wouldnt have to worry about anything in this game.

I don't get this. The only "difficult" fight in the game is Titan extreme and once you learn his pattern that becomes laughable too. I would actually like to see more challenging content, not necessarily one boss fights like the extremes or small zone with a boss or two and some trash mobs like coil or ct, but actual large scale content that is not scripted, worth the time/effort, takes some skill at your job and most importantly...fun!

I know, I know, no more xi references, but Nyzul Isle, Dynamis, Salvage, Sky, etc etc etc...all fun times, worth the time/effort and needed at least some knowledge of how to play and dedication to a job more than just easy-button gearing (aka myth/soldiery tomes), had rewards that lasted longer than the 3 months to the next patch and... RANDOMIZATION ding ding ding

/em waits patiently to see what the expansion will bring

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

I don't get this. The only "difficult" fight in the game is Titan extreme

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http://i.imgur.com/1hAoViy.jpg

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Originally Posted by seriously

The problem is a lot of people on DF are working for no reward. Spending 50-70 minutes and not succeeding in anything but training new players. I'm not asking for handouts or free clears.

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Actually, the problem is the lockout system for the tiers. Right now the current content is T6-T9, but they are locking people out of those turns unless they've completed T5, which is still quite a feet to get through even with an echo buff. Also, like a lot of themeparks raiding often means keeping up with the demographic interested in it or losing out on seeing the content through. World of Warcraft managed to solve the problem with raid finder (probably a bit too well given what happened to a lot of guilds) and cutting back the mechanics enough so that the second wave of people could clear the content.

Final Fantasy XIV ARRs problem is we got the wave of raiders already past T5 and while it is possible to get some charity from more experienced players, the chances of anyone catching up to the late wave of players is pretty slim. It's not even about gear as much as experience and learning mechanics.

Also, unless someone can come up with a good reason why people MUST know T5 mechanics to do T6 mechanics, the entire lockout system is borked.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Also, unless someone can come up with a good reason why people MUST know T5 mechanics to do T6 mechanics, the entire lockout system is borked.

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if you can't complete T5 easied up like this you can't hope to beat T6 then you'll start whine since T6 is too difficult bla bla bla

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

if you can't complete T5 easied up like this you can't hope to beat T6 then you'll start whine since T6 is too difficult bla bla bla

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Have to agree here, If you can't beat t5, why would you even want to move on to higher turns? t5 is not difficult, honestly if you can't beat it then you have every right to not have access to t6+, the raids in this game are not difficult one bit but everyone and their mother is crying for nerfs and buffs and echo etc

I overall do agree with gating fights kinda like T5 does with T6+, but not keeping them gated forever. The purpose of the gates is to make sure people learn how to play well enough that they have a chance in the next tier, but as time goes on, these gates become frustrating obstacles for obsolete content that very few people run. I think the best timing to remove the lockout on T6 would actually be 1 patch before T6 gets nerfed so that everyone who is so inclined may try T6+ as is before everything starts getting wonky with echo.

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

if you can't complete T5 easied up like this you can't hope to beat T6 then you'll start whine since T6 is too difficult bla bla bla

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Problem 1: You are resorting to personal attacks.

Problem 2: The form of your personal attack against the above player generally indicates that you blame specific individuals for what constitutes the inability of an entire group to complete said content. Your attack is not only offensive and unnecessary, it isn't even targeting the right thing.

Nothing in his post was offensive. Yours, however, is. The forum mods can and will ban people for repeatedly personally attacking other forum goers.

And to others? Don't tolerate the kinds of posts LetBloodline made, please. Its not healthy for the forums in general, and certainly don't agree with the personal attacks other players make against some guy who just has a different opinion on things.

Also, Turn 6 is bloody easy compared to turn 5. I have no idea why someone would think turn 6 would "destroy" someone who is good enough to clear t1-t4 without echo buff and in the item level that the content was built for.

Here is a weakness in many of the arguments presented here about difficulty of the fights and learning the 'mechanics.'

The fight mechanics in this game are almost exclusively based on very specific patterns.

Learning one pattern does not prepare you for the next fight. The next fight will have a different pattern.

Once you learn the rotation for your job, the rest is memorizing the different patterns for each and every fight, and reacting to them quickly enough to move (or pre-emptively). When put that simply, yes, that makes this game very 'easy.'

Easy, but not at all forgiving. One mis-step, one mis-remembered pattern, and one player dies because there is no room for forgiveness in these fights, in many cases, even with the echo.

This thread has come up many many times before, and I agree with the OP only when it comes to Coil. Extreme primals need to stay difficult. I already know I'll never do those fights. Coil needs an easy, without loot mode so we can participate in the story. Please do not insult me by telling me to go to youtube, please.

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

Please do not insult me by telling me to go to youtube, please.

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I don't see how that is an insult. It's a legit way for those who don't have the time and/or skill to pass t5 to see the story.

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

Coil needs an easy, without loot mode so we can participate in the story.

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This i'm okay with. Have 3 tiers of coils, similar to wows LFR, normal, heroic.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

useless white knighting

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T6 is a fight that need a party and training. As t5. The problem is not that t5 is hard. The problem is that ppl are asking to beat t5 with random players not trained. If you have a below avarage trained ppl now on T5 you beat it with no problems. If you don't you won't beat T6 any time soon as well. Neither are difficult but t6 is way more deadly to inexperienced players than t5

A team not able to beat t5 nerfed will never be able to beat t6. You can get a team able to beat t6? Great, t5 will be a breeze

So if you let the team be able to take on t6 not being able to take on t5 we'd have this same topic with t6 instead if t5.

And i don't think that t5 will be a hold'em much longher. Probably with third coil and echo in t6-9 and them moved on DF they will take off t5 lock out.

And no, we don't need easy coil. This as any other MMO need some hard content and some easy content. As "pro players" can't whine about easy part if the game being too easy since it's ment to the more "casual" players so "casual" players can't whine about hard content studied for more "dedicated" players being too hard for them

exept T5 is not hard, but ask to know perfectly all the pattern of the boss like... well all the fight of the game. no difficulty there outside have 7 other people that know the fight like you.
DF is not something you must use for training, i found it soo much stupid... how can you train efficiently with different people all the time... how can you become better if each time you have a new group? this fight ask your group to dance together... one person that mess up and it's over... you can't expect to have a whole group in DF that know all this freaking pattern that make this game boring as hell!

because that the real trouble of FF14, the fight mechanic are soo dumb... why make us do dance instead to fight monster? when you know the pattern perfectly you can simply put your brain on the table and do it in auto-pilot... not because you are over-equiped, but because if you follow the pattern the fight it's beaten everytime!

anyway, why T5 is still a trouble? because it was artificially make in a way to be harder, the dive, twister are a perfect example of it. ohh and a lot of people that pass T6 find it way easier than T5 then stop to come say, you will not pass T6 because you can gather 7 other people knowing a dance.

we have get that the raid guild around want instant gratification win with no real difficulty outside dance together... not need to be hard with other person pointing a flaws of the game.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Also, Turn 6 is bloody easy compared to turn 5.

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T6 feels for many ppl easier, cause they've learned to play toghether in T5.

Try out T6 with a PUG and feel the difference ;)

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

T6 feels for many ppl easier, cause they've learned to play toghether in T5.

Try out T6 with a PUG and feel the difference ;)

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This one. And probably your comparison is the learning of T6 compared to the learning of T5 pre-nerf (not talking of first echo but the further nerf they did later to mecanics).
In that case T5 is indeed harder to learn. But now not anymore, you literally have only 2 mecanics to watch out for, divebombs and twisters (easied up more). All the other mecanics and dps checks are pretty much nullified. There is no way T6 is easier then the T5 we have now

Another part that I'm missing in the list of the arguments. Everyone tells "learn the mechanics" and "learn how to dance".

But there is another part, a very importent part, that is missed all the time: Everyone of the 8 ppl must also do the same dance.

Keeping T5 as example.

It begis with fireballs. There is not one way to camp for fireballs. Some make 2 fixed groups. Others do OT+pet camp. Next one build one grp behind twintania and eveyone else has to watch out.

Divebombs. There is the hole most ppl use to dodge divebombs. There are also ppl that dodge them within the field (like it was designed for).

Twister. There should be a plan where everyone has to stay. Nearly every group whith that I was there did different positions for the players.

Last phase. There is the standard tactic and the "easy" tactic with keeping Twintania on top of her last neurolink and OT goes into it till the fight is over.

If you get together with random ppl, there is no guarante that everyone is knowing and doing the same tactics as you. It is not enough to know the fight and the tactic. Everyone must do the same tactic to be successfull.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

If you get together with random ppl, there is no guarante that everyone is knowing and doing the same tactics as you. It is not enough to know the fight and the tactic. Everyone must do the same tactic to be successfull.

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You use this little thing called communication. Instead of the tank just pulling with only 1 or 2 people saying "hi". Party should organise and decide on which strat they are going to use before the pull. So everyone is on the same page.

It's not complicated ^_^

A little communication saves a whole lot of headache and derpyness.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

You use this little thing called communication. Instead of the tank just pulling with only 1 or 2 people saying "hi". Party should organise and decide on which strat they are going to use before the pull. So everyone is on the same page.

It's not complicated ^_^

A little communication saves a whole lot of headache and derpyness.

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it comes down to the same, if you are the only one communicating there is little you can do other then ask/answer yourself to yourself.

To dance it takes two people...to play any dungeon it takes between 4 to 8 people even 24 people......in DF you can only do your best and hope the others can too, which is why there are so many fails but then failing is also a way of learning. People just need to use respect. I noticed something though, early morning (euro morning) people are very curteous to each other much more then late evening (euro evening), at that time people are just plain rude and insulting...strange the difference

Mei

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Originally Posted by EvaEva

I think they should nerf the damage done when you step on the edges of the arena. It's never telegraphed that you will instantly die, in fact no other bosses outside of T5 and T9 will instantly kill you by stepping into the brightly colored and alluring arena edge. SE being the equal opportunity employer that I know them should rectify this raiding atrocity, and mail me a few million gil while they are at it.

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Aw, its so fun someone walking against the arena and vent/mumble/ts all goes "aaaw" or laughs their but off.
And yea, it happened to me when learning t5 and i had already some diffuculties with divebombs so i went up the wall out of rage.

Not in every case. You can have somthing on farm. But if you come into a grp that do a tactic you do not know and never have done before, you get in struggle.

For me, in T6 I only know how to handle LoS and Superslug. Don't have any experience in handling the other tactics. I'm shure I will not get it in first try, if some party begins with another way.

In T7 I did learn some different tank spots and ways for Renaud handling.

T8 is really interesting. I did practise it for many hours last weeks. From my experience, replacing only one ppl will lead to a fallback of 20-50% at beginning. Even if that ppl have kill exp.

T2. I was never in a group that did not the enrage method.

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Originally Posted by Barimu

This i'm okay with. Have 3 tiers of coils, similar to wows LFR, normal, heroic.

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And you know what the next topic will be then?
"Why does some no-lifer get loot but not me when we do the same content and i pay the same amount every month"

For all that is holy, do NOT go the LFR route.