Tanks are so mainstream. (Ramuh extreme done without tanks)

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Originally Posted by Gextiv

Rejoice! For the expliot has been righteously terminated.

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I think it's kind of hilarious that most people don't even seem to have a clue about what an exploit actually is. Here it like you'd explain a 5 years old:

Titan gets less damage done with AoE, as intended by the designers. Ramuh everything does is AoE. Therefore, Titan takes less damage from Ramuh! Working as intended.

Now the fix:

Damage Titan takes is too low because Ramuh's attack are AoE. Make them bypass reduction. Titan dies! Working as intended as well.

Now for the definition of an exploit:

"In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers."

Now kids, is a pet taking reduced damage from AoE an exploit ?

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

You can say whatever you want, honestly, you are a summoner.
Your statement is lacking of credibility, but you wont admit it, because you are a summoner
It is an exploit, but you wont agree with it, because you are a summoner

You can say anything you want to release your anger, but you are a summoner, not S/E game designer.

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I don't know which is sadder. The fact that people are liking your post which means that there are more people that thinks like you or the fact that one does not need to be a designer to make the difference between what is an what isn't an exploit. Since you seem unable to comprehend it, I described above just for people that might have difficulty in comprehending it :D

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Originally Posted by Kardayel

It was not a bug exploit, it was using a flagrant flaw in the system

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You just contradicted yourself there.

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Originally Posted by Kardayel

well, if you're basic system have a flaw, shame on you, you should have test it. The devs want people clear the game the way they decided we should do, so they changed the rules.

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If their system has a flaw and players abuse it, shame on SE? Lol. Nobody's perfect, however, things can get fixed, especially if they're virtual. And this is why reporting bugs exists, so game developers can fix what's not intended to happen.
I would say shame on players for exploiting game flaws that aren't intended and claiming them as something normal.

I'm sorry you all wanted to be carried by Titan-Egi.

The ability to completely disable a crucial mechanic in a fight is just ridiculous. I don't consider it an exploit, I consider it lack of a challenge.
Turn 2 was fine, because you're not abusing any sort of mechanic, you have to out heal the enrage, that's completely fair, plenty of groups failed, plenty can fail Titan-Tank too, the issue here is that it pushes the mechanics of the fight aside. If you need 3 stacks of Electroconductivity to survive his big attack, why doesn't Titan? That was my problem with it.


But to use Titan and alleviate the need for a mechanic designed specifically for the group to;
A: Manage # of Orbs abailable.
B: Tanks Manage stacks and swaps.

Makes the fight trivial and quite honestly, incredibly stupid. I've had a feeling of dread wanting to do Ramuh EX and learn this mechanic on my Paladin, because it's my main class. To be told "No, you have to go DPS, the fight is 100x easier this way." because a pet can tank it BETTER than me, is actually infuriating, and insulting.

All of you clowns want a challenge, well, here it is, Titan-Egi no longer works. Now go actually learn the fight instead of being a bunch of bums.

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Originally Posted by Edeline

You just contradicted yourself there.

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Nop, a bug is a "programation mistake"
Making a pet resisting AOE tank a mob who resist AOE is obvious. There was no programation mistake, it was just how the game WORKS. They just didn't think people will try to make the pet tank Ramuh. No bug here, no mistake here, they just forgot how their game works. to mak an analogy: you want nobody in a room, you close it with a door. The door can be open with something else than a key, your door have a conception problem (a bug). If you forget to built the 4th wall, you're just an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Now kids, is a pet taking reduced damage from AoE an exploit ?

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*Correction: an AoE that is suposed to kill you in 1 hit unless you follow the INTENDED game mechanics.

Why are we still discussing this?

They fixed it. The people who made the fight did not want us playing this way. That is all.

It is not a bug abuse or exploit or anything. It is basically players out-smarting the game mechanics made by the game makers.

The previous time this happened was turn 2 of BCoB. Why the fix this time?

Very simple. 2 different people with 2 different train of thoughts. I'm very sure the guy who made turn 2 is not the same person as the one who made Ramuh EX. Somewhere in SE offices, these conversations or its variant happened:

(Many months ago)
"Hey, guy who made turn 2, are who okay with people using enrage method?"
"Wow, you can do that?!"
"Totally." (Shows youtube link) "Are you going to change it?"
"Nah. I like to see players out-smarting me."

(3 days ago)
"Hey, guy who made Ramuh EX, are who okay with people tanking with Titan-egi?"
"What do you mean?"
(Shows youtube link)
"They absolutely cannot do that. That is unacceptable. They are wrecking how I envisioned the fight."
"Okay, we will call the programming team to work overtime then."
(Phone call: Fuuu---)

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Originally Posted by Poringing

The previous time this happened was turn 2 of BCoB. Why the fix this time?

Very simple. 2 different people with 2 different train of thoughts. I'm very sure the guy who made turn 2 is not the same person as the one who made Ramuh EX. Somewhere in SE offices, these conversations or its variant happened:

(Many months ago)
"Hey, guy who made turn 2, are who okay with people using enrage method?"
"Wow, you can do that?!"
"Totally." (Shows youtube link) "Are you going to change it?"
"Nah. I like to see players out-smarting me."

(3 days ago)
"Hey, guy who made Ramuh EX, are who okay with people tanking with Titan-egi?"
"What do you mean?"
(Shows youtube link)
"They absolutely cannot do that. That is unacceptable. They are wrecking how I envisioned the fight."
"Okay, we will call the programming team to work overtime then."
(Phone call: Fuuu---)

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It's more:
(Many months ago)
"Hey, guy who made turn 2, are who okay with people using enrage method?"
"Wow, you can do that?!"
"Totally." (Shows youtube link) "Are you going to change it?"
"Nah. I like to see players out-smarting me."

(3 Days ago)
"Hey, guy who made Ramuh EX, are who okay with people tanking with Titan-egi?"
"What do you mean?"
(Shows youtube link)
"This makes absolutely no sense. Ramuh has a one-shot mechanic for a reason and this is unacceptable. There must be a big with Ramuh's damage versus pets."
"Okay, we will call the programming team to work overtime then."
(Phone call: Nice work guys.)

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Originally Posted by Poringing

(3 days ago)
"Hey, guy who made Ramuh EX, are who okay with people tanking with Titan-egi?"
"What do you mean?"
(Shows youtube link)
"They absolutely cannot do that. That is unacceptable. They are wrecking how I envisioned the fight."
"Okay, we will call the programming team to work overtime then."
(Phone call: Fuuu---)

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It's probably the same guy that "fixed" the FFXI DRK "Souleater" Ability when Absolute Virtue begun to be zerged via Souleater and Kraken Club

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

There must be a big with Ramuh's damage versus pets."

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There was no bug. AoE damage = reduced, Ramuh EX does AoE damage. Therefore, damage was reduced. Now they just made it that said damage bypass the mechanic. There was no bug or exploit or anything of the sort and how people don't grasp this is beyond understanding.

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Originally Posted by Edeline

*Correction: an AoE that is suposed to kill you in 1 hit unless you follow the INTENDED game mechanics.

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1 shot via damage, not set hp to 0.Damage gets reduced due to being AoE. Mechanics themselves were working as intended, whether it was a foresight by Square-Enix to but this is an AoE or not get pet damage reduction is another debate but it's clear than no one abuse things they weren't supposed to with pets not getting 1-shotted.

@Dwill

Because the intended mechanic is a one-shot-one-kill mechanic. Would you have been okay with this is they just made it single target so it killed Titan anyway? It's the same damn thing.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

@Dwill

Because the intended mechanic is a one-shot-one-kill mechanic. Would you have been okay with this is they just made it single target so it killed Titan anyway? It's the same damn thing.

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Set HP to 0 is different than AoE damage. Want to make sure everyone and everything dies from the mechanics if not done correctly, set their HP to 0 instantly or make the AoE damage so high the pet will still die via the reduction. Simple enough.

No, I think the larger issue here is that the Dev team is going back to their XI roots and not doing proper testing, development,or even doing things that make an onze of sense.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

@Dwill

Because the intended mechanic is a one-shot-one-kill mechanic. Would you have been okay with this is they just made it single target so it killed Titan anyway? It's the same damn thing.

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Ok, i'll try to be clear on my point.
I can understand they don't want us to kill Ramuh that way (after all, who want play a game as they want when they can play it as the developers want... but it's not the debate here).
My problem is, they present it like a "bug", it means: people using it were cheating.
They should have said they change the mechanic of the fight, which mean: ok, good job, you've outsmarted us. We don't want you to kill it that way so we change the fight.

This is my real problem.

Stating that is was a bug doesn't imply Square thinks they were abusing it, stating it was a bug can be used in many ways. Developers like using the term "bug" to get around backlash on games such as League of Legends, nerfing a character and calling it a bug to make it seem more fair.

"Bug" can also mean they didn't take this into account in the first place, because they assumed if the skill did 17,000 damage, nothing would survive it. The fact that Titan did was a miscalculation by the dev team and nothing else. They don't like to admit honest mistakes.

While I do think it was their own fault for leaving this out; they don't need to be berated for making you do the fight as intended. It excludes player-base, tanks.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

There was no bug. AoE damage = reduced, Ramuh EX does AoE damage. Therefore, damage was reduced. Now they just made it that said damage bypass the mechanic. There was no bug or exploit or anything of the sort and how people don't grasp this is beyond understanding.



1 shot via damage, not set hp to 0.Damage gets reduced due to being AoE. Mechanics themselves were working as intended, whether it was a foresight by Square-Enix to but this is an AoE or not get pet damage reduction is another debate but it's clear than no one abuse things they weren't supposed to with pets not getting 1-shotted.

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So is T8 enrage, 30k damage. It's also damage based but is set to be high enough to make sure someone dies.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

It excludes player-base, tanks.

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Honestly, i tryed the fight both ways, and while hte Titan strat made the add dps check easier, the safe zone of the fight is so little that it was overcrowded with DPS which tend to give problem when it came to reading what happened. For me the tank strat was in a sense "safer" cause all your hope are not on a single SMN in the middle of thunder hell... But the titan tank would probably have become a Big Carry Technic and it would have benn sad to see a clever idea becoming this. Better to see it go like this.

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Originally Posted by Edeline

So is T8 enrage, 30k damage. It's also damage based but is set to be high enough to make sure someone dies.

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Your point ? The pet despawning in T8 is the summoner dying, not the pet's HP getting reduce to 0.

Hi! Software developer here.

"Bug" in modern tech parlance is a catch all term for "thing that makes the program not work properly or as expected." It can refer to oversights as well as deliberate mistakes but generally refers to any case where an expected input produces an unexpected output, either from the user's end or the developer's end.

In this case, -egi's not dying to Ramuh's AOE magical damage due to their high resistances is a 'bug', not because it is something in the code that was incorrectly written, but because it was an oversight that caused a certain input (titan-egi being hit by ramuh's tank kill mechanic) to produce an unexpected output (titan-egi, er....not dying.)

Also, a "bug" produces an unexpected output. An "exploit" is the use of the program to cause serious damage to other users or the system as a whole. Utilizing a bug is not necessarily an exploit.

(It's worth noting that tankless Ramuh was not necessarily easier, it was just preferable because competent tanks tend to be in very limited supply. Sorry!)

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Your point ? The pet despawning in T8 is the summoner dying, not the pet's HP getting reduce to 0.

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My point? it's a mechanic that kills you in 1 hit and you can't avoid it unless you follow the fight mechanic, be it damage based or not, it's set to be an amount of damage you can't survive unless you do it properly with the fight mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Mitsukai123

They won't.

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This post makes me smile. Hee hee. :3

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

I've had a feeling of dread wanting to do Ramuh EX and learn this mechanic on my Paladin, because it's my main class. To be told "No, you have to go DPS, the fight is 100x easier this way." because a pet can tank it BETTER than me, is actually infuriating, and insulting.

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That's pretty much how I would assume any tank would feel. I know I would.

I'm curious. How many here used the Turn 2 Enrage strategy (before Echo) and are happy the Titan-tank is no longer possible?
Because Turn 2 Enrage takes away 100% of the mechanics in ADS and replaces it with "just spam heals and hard hitting attacks until we win" and yet that was never fixed (except that one time, but was quickly changed back because that was not supposed to happen apparently).

If a couple of months passed before this strat came up I bet the devs wouldnt have done anything about it. The time when t2 enrage method was discovered it was already an old content and kinda like helped the devs in a way because they didnt need to do any adjustments to make it easier for the community.

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Originally Posted by Edeline

My point? it's a mechanic that kills you in 1 hit and you can't avoid it unless you follow the fight mechanic, be it damage based or not, it's set to be an amount of damage you can't survive unless you do it properly with the fight mechanic.

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Summoner did mechanic in Ramuh, he doesn't die. Titan doesn't do the mechanic, he doesn't die because AoE. T8 enrage is unavoidable (if you let him enrages obviously)therefore the summoner dies and brings the pet with him. Again, are you going anywhere with this ?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

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This has never been true and absolutely everyone forgets that there's one mechanic that you can't ever remove. The buffs. I've seen T2's get wiped because people were morons and just went with the path the guide told them to use, setting up a bunch of relevant defensive buffs that prolonged the fight into a wipe.

I think the difference here is intent. S-E has been pretty damn lenient about what's allowed in Coil because it's neat to see how people figure that out. Aside from the small number of people banned due to T8 Z-axis bugs, p much anything has been allowed.

Titan-egi was never intended to be an element in end-game play and they have been open about that since the very beginning. Titan-egi (and Topaz Carbuncle) exist so that ACN/SMN have something to help them solo. Much like how healers have Cleric Stance and many classes have small piddly heals like Bloodbath or Second Wind. Not because these are somehow necessary or very useful in end-game but because this game has solo elements and these skills are factored towards that. The difference between those other skills and Titan-egi is none of those really make a huge impact and/or they have a sufficient opportunity cost. As an example, a healer in CS does close to DPS levels of damage, but that's significantly lower healing throughput and there are situations where its not effective anyways (Coil). There was zero opportunity cost to using Titan-egi and the effect was astronomical.