Dear SE, Yoshi, etc, remove Coil lock outs. Right now.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

I started playing after 2.1 dropped, I hope there was this much complaining when the first coil turns were released so I can rest easy knowing SE didn't give in to these same whines and kept things as is.

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It was slightly subdued by the fact that the barrier of entry wasn't too tough but most of the whiners were stuck on the relic quest anyway, and by the time they started to farm coil there was turn 2 enrage giving them an easy farm, and 1-4 was eventually a gear stomp. The difficulty curve only shot up at t5, so all the bad statics called it at a 1-4 farm which hurt them when t5 became a req for scob.

So yes I agree, itt a lot of people want to just get carried but are dishonest with themselves/don't want to admit they're bad. Not like it would be a bad thing for me, loot lockout would ensure lots of returning customers every week, but at least carries are honest about what they really want.

I don't do coil cause I don't have a real working schedule so I can never tell if I will be able to play or not. So if I were in a static I'd disappoint my team mates a lot, and if there werent a lockout it would be fine cause then they could pick up another one and maybe do it with me when I have time.
Yes I agree it's stupid

And about selling runs. I don't see the problem really. It's like a sellsword, I'll guard your goods for moneyz, I'll help you with a dungeon for moneyz. I think it adds a little to the roleplaying and I would buy a moggle king EX run to get the cute necklace!

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Originally Posted by Pacifyer

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Man you do not understand how the lockout should work.

It just have to put a flag on the first time you close it up, then you can't roll 'till next week regardless of the kind of the drop, even if you don't roll you will be locked out the drop.

This ensures the same RNG. Open your mind, this is an MMO and it mean to be MASSIVE, not 8 man related. In big free company and comunnity this kind of lockout divides the players in a bad way :/

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

So yes I agree, itt a lot of people want to just get carried but are dishonest with themselves/don't want to admit they're bad.

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I don't know how you associate people wanting to be carried with people wanting to do content. If the content is so easy you can carry people then there's no sense of accomplishment from completing it anyway. Save your cries for SE's design team.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I don't know how you associate people wanting to be carried with people wanting to do content. If the content is so easy you can carry people then there's no sense of accomplishment from completing it anyway. Save your cries for SE's design team.

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You can do the content, seems like you're the one crying about the design here.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you but your own stroller. Just be patient, once they release new turns the current lockout will be removed and nerfed so you can farm to your hearts content. If its the gear you desire, which it probably is, then play the game the way the rest of us did.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

...If its the gear you desire, which it probably is....

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It's not a matter of gear here.

This is a discussion about the design of the lockout, it could work leaving unchanged the RNG and the amount of gear awarded.

but a small change in the system can help people to play together, especially in the summer period when the different date of the holidays leave empty spot in static party.

Currently we are a divided community, which meets only to farm or to deal with one primal. A big FC is forced to split up, and this is worse for non-english/not-japanese community who find more difficult to fill the holes in a static.

High skilled players mixing with friends to help with content isn't a "bad" thing... it's the point of an MMO.

Segregating players trying to isolate and punish "bads" is contrary to a cooperative gaming environment and imo detrimental to a healthy online gaming community.

I can't count how many times uber guilds stepped in and helped lower guilds in EQ to recover corpses in PoFear... or to break PoHate. Personally, I was massively outgeared and still helping out folks with epic fights. That was fun! It was fun helping others. There was a time when being uber or "l33t" wasn't about lording things over other players... it was about being knowledgeable and a helpful figure to your server. It was knowing that when someone was having trouble, you had the power to encourage them and help them thrive, and meet a new friend in the process.

Those were some of the best examples of community I have ever seen. You label it "carrying" and criticize it. I long for a place where that kind of thing can happen again. MMOs can be about building relationships.... loot based games are nothing more than multiplayer console games.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

High skilled players mixing with friends to help with content isn't a "bad" thing... it's the point of an MMO.

Segregating players trying to isolate and punish "bads" is contrary to a cooperative gaming environment and imo detrimental to a healthy online gaming community.

I can't count how many times uber guilds stepped in and helped lower guilds in EQ to recover corpses in PoFear... or to break PoHate. Personally, I was massively outgeared and still helping out folks with epic fights. That was fun! It was fun helping others. There was a time when being uber or "l33t" wasn't about lording things over other players... it was about being knowledgeable and a helpful figure to your server. It was knowing that when someone was having trouble, you had the power to encourage them and help them thrive, and meet a new friend in the process.

Those were some of the best examples of community I have ever seen. You label it "carrying" and criticize it. I long for a place where that kind of thing can happen again. MMOs can be about building relationships...

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Well said Apollo. :D

On a high level Yoshi P's overarching decisions about minimizing Crafting and having a heavily Vertical Progression system has directly affected having these Coil Lockouts. Bosses *don't* just have to drop a completed Rare Armor / Weapon. They *could've* dropped Rare Crafting Materials, Rare [Key Items] that you needed for a [Side Grade Armor / Weapon] and more.

Here's a look at what an older Final Fantasy Boss used to drop for a Kill:

Kirin's Osode (39.3%)
Kirin's Pole (47.8%)
Dryadic Abjuration: Body (40.6%) (up to 2)
Neptunal Abjuration: Body (27.7%) (up to 2)
Wyrmal Abjuration: Legs (26.2%) (up to 2)
Scroll of Quake (30.4%) (up to 2)
Scroll of Raise III (17.6%) (up to 2)
Orichalcum Ingot (22.7%) (up to 2)
Shining Cloth (32.4%) (up to 2)
Damascus Ingot (39.6%) (up to 2)


This is just an EXAMPLE, but you can see the result and imagine how much more FLEXIBILITY it could give the Developers.

"Yes," right now if Coil Lockouts are removed (even w/ Gear), it might enable more people to "clear" 2nd Coil faster, and they might be "bored," because of it. But that's because Yoshi P decided that End Game Itemization is all about 1 top iLevel Item every major patch, and that Side Grades, Crafters and other Systems aren't necessary.

He also minimized many Stats and controlled the Primary Stat for each Job (so you can NEVER exceed what Yoshi P wants everyone to have for this iLevel for STR on DRG or INT on BLM, etc.). This whole situation is what we get because of this.

If we had [Very Rare Crafting Materials] drop from a 2nd Coil Boss that would be able to help Crafters make an awesome [Item] of some sort that was relevant, that would go a long way. Same with a system like the [Cursed Items] and finding Abjurations to upgrade them, etc.

The point being then the "best gear" wouldn't have to be a 100% Drop Rate, which then reduces the need to have a Coil Lockout, which also reduces the stress of the Dev Team to HAVE to make content "last" long enough for another Major Patch.

The fact that the gear and carry argument is constantly being brought up just goes to show how many people are missing the point on this.

Your ability to log into the game at the same time as 7 other set people is not a measure of your skill as a player no matter how you would like to rationalize it.

If you honestly cannot understand that people would like to play a game with each other and real life obligations often leave people with varying times and schedules that can make it difficult to organize around such a rigid weekly lockout I'm not sure what else to tell you.

In addition the fact that you have to choose 7 other people out of a 512 person Free Company is mind boggling to say the least.

Not a single person who has posted in any of the multiple Coil lockout threads has complained that coil is too hard. They have only stated that it's harmful community wise for the game to create fractures between players by forcing them to conform to this system when other alternatives have been proven better not only in other MMOs but this one as well.

If coil is supposed to be exclusive then make the difficulty of the content reflect that, but the hardest part of coil by far is organizing the schedules of 7 other people to actually DO coil.

In case that last part wasn't clear: I'm FULLY advocating for Coil to be made HARDER in exchange for removing the current weekly lockout as it stands

It is my understanding that team working on FFXIV wants people to actually log in and play the game, but they're losing more and more people from this single mechanic of the game alone than anything else right now.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

In case that last part wasn't clear: I'm FULLY advocating for Coil to be made HARDER in exchange for removing the current weekly lockout as it stands

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It has been said many times this is not a valid solution. The only solution is; Loot isn't 100% guaranteed (think bad drop rates 20% for actual gears, 75% for semi-rare crafting materials, 5% nothing). That's what happens in games that have no lockout, you have to *grind* those instances to get more gear.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It has been said many times this is not a valid solution. The only solution is; Loot isn't 100% guaranteed (think bad drop rates 20% for actual gears, 75% for semi-rare crafting materials, 5% nothing). That's what happens in games that have no lockout, you have to *grind* those instances to get more gear.

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It's funny you say that because here's part of something a posted in a similar thread to this one:

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Originally Posted by Ryel

the argument could be made that coil has worse RNG luck than some of the stuff designed circa Tanaka era because at least Tanaka's 1% drop rates didn't prevent you from doing the content at all for an entire week for another shot at the gear, in addition to forcing a static 8 person party to do it with.

And before it's brought up, yeah RNG works BOTH ways, there are just as many groups swimming in gear as there are those who STILL haven't seen certain drops since the content was introduced.

Ideally i would love for the brutal mode they've mentioned to be the standard with no weekly lockout and a drop system similar to Garuda's token system during 1.0, one where it had an RNG chance to drop gear and a GUARANTEED chance to drop tokens which could be redeemed for gear.

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This was a system that was in this game before and probably would have worked to great effect here.

Or as other people have posted numerous times CT lockout could have worked as well

I think a better idea would be if Brutal Coil had no lockout, no tokens and 10% to drop gear. However, you can have weekly lockout coil that drops the tokens (like soldiery) to buy Allagan gear. Thus if people want to run Coil, they'll have deal with hard mode, or just plow through the token version then spend rest of the week trying out brutal.

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Or as other people have posted numerous times CT lockout could have worked as well

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CT lockout is just as bad really. Naoki doesn't want people to be allowed to simply carry other people through Coil multiple times to get gear. He wants a gear gap between those who have the time and skill to win Coil every week versus those who have one or neither of those. CT gear lockout works because it isn't end-game. It's alt farming (or catching up for new players).

I probably wouldn't have an issue with that personally

100% agree. currency/drops/loot lockouts are essential. but being locked out of the instance all together is silly. if you already ran it once for the week then just make the rest of their runs dry. that player won't get ANYTHING. gil, exp, special currency, drops or any other kind of loot. but they shouldn't be prevented from playing the instance all together.

maybe a group only won through a clutch situation. maybe it wasn't a smooth run. maybe they want to practice it some more.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

snip.

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You can avoid the problem with a different lockout than the CT one, just put a flag on the clear. The player can roll on the loot only the first time he close it up.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

You can do the content, seems like you're the one crying about the design here.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you but your own stroller. Just be patient, once they release new turns the current lockout will be removed and nerfed so you can farm to your hearts content. If its the gear you desire, which it probably is, then play the game the way the rest of us did.

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No thanks.

When 2.4 comes I will have no interest in current Coil, I will be looking to do the next Coil. I've no interest in nerfed content and I highly doubt I will need the gear by then because any slots not i110 via HA will have come via soldiery upgrades.

Playing the game 7 months behind the patch schedule is NOT a solution to Coil lockout being terrible. When finding a solid group that fits around your life is the hardest part of the game there's something seriously wrong with that game.

Make the content hard, not the entry requirements.

My solution would be to remove the lockout and make the content harder. Make it so you can only obtain one piece of loot per week from Coil (all turns combined). So what if a pro will fully gear after 10 weeks, that's almost half way through the content cycle and they can work on a second job. Most people wouldn't gear that fast because most people don't have all turns on farm within a week of the patch.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It has been said many times this is not a valid solution. The only solution is; Loot isn't 100% guaranteed (think bad drop rates 20% for actual gears, 75% for semi-rare crafting materials, 5% nothing). That's what happens in games that have no lockout, you have to *grind* those instances to get more gear.

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This. Every suggestion I'm seeing so far is lending itself to a return to grindy mechanics.

The only way I could really see the current system being expanded without having things turn into a grindfest is by having lockouts occur by job, with alt gear effectively becoming unobtainable. I could be on board with something like that if it could and were to be implemented.

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Originally Posted by gti443

This. Every suggestion I'm seeing so far is lending itself to a return to grindy mechanics.

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It's a grind either way... either weekly grind.. nightly grind whatever.

With the itemization issue already mentioned, you are essentially stuck grinding one instance. If itemization was broader, you might have the option to run different instances/zones and have an actual raid calendar. With large scale raids, you might have server pickup raiding happening.

Right now, everything is on lock down- itemization, viable raid instances, number of raiders, frequency of attempts. Everything. It's gaming on rails, and it really puts the entire experience focus on getting a drop, rather than completing content, diversity in content, diversity in mechanics, diversity in group sizes.... or really any diversity. It's a rigid system. You play how, where, and when they want you to play.

The real solution is removing the lockout and adding an RNG system that also rewards guaranteed tokens each run, for example a 1-10% drop rate on a weapon in T9 but after 30 or so clears you can buy one of the weapons, or a 10-20% drop rate on gear and after about 20 clears you can buy a piece of gear from that turn. It's different from the current tomes system because that grants tomes from a variety of other content not necessarily related to that content's loot drop table, where as the solution would reward Coil specific tokens obtained only from running it.

It's been mentioned a lot previously, it's the Garuda token system from 1.0 that a lot of people expected would be implemented and expanded upon because it was a good system that worked great, yet it was thrown out like a lot of good things from the previous version. It's still a grind but you are guaranteed something after a certain amount of clears which still require the same amount of effort, and also has far more freedom than being at the mercy of whatever drops each week and you aren't limited in who you can do the content with.

Man, are you guys really saying to make coil harder and remove the lockout out? lol you can't even beat it as is. So much denial, just keep it real and admit you want a carry.

You weathered animus players are hilarious.

I agree that lockouts are a good thing, but yes this system is bad. Players that don't have the time to be a part of a static might as well forget about coil. Find a way to lockout the loot and maybe give something else to those repeating. Don't just completely eliminate the content for the week.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

I agree that lockouts are a good thing, but yes this system is bad. Players that don't have the time to be a part of a static might as well forget about coil. Find a way to lockout the loot and maybe give something else to those repeating. Don't just completely eliminate the content for the week.

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this. ^



off-topic : is funny how quotes will count towards your character limit, but ONLY once you have passed your first initial 10 character limit limit. lol.

/like

my static died due to this very reason and now I'm out of one.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

Man, are you guys really saying to make coil harder and remove the lockout out? lol you can't even beat it as is. So much denial, just keep it real and admit you want a carry.

You weathered animus players are hilarious.

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it's not about the difficulty. people just want to be able to replay the instance as many times as they want. even if it means they won't get any loot.

as someone else already said. if you are going to try to do the latest Coil raids. then there is a high likely-hood you will need to be part of a static. not everyone can actually be a part of a static group. which means those that ARE part of one can't help other players that aren't a part AND run the instance with their static in the same week.

and those that are are tied down to playing that instance with a specific group and at a specific time. maybe they want to help a friend? maybe they want more practice?


either way there are plenty of legit reason to remove the lockout for entry. for ENTRY not the loot.

I agree with that. More practice is always a good thing. Lockout the loot to once a week and let people run as often as they want. It hurts no one, and could potentially help a lot of groups clear content that they wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. Eventually SE removed the time-based lockouts from Dynamis. They will do the right thing here as well. I'm actually a little surprised as to how much they are listening to the community.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

With the itemization issue already mentioned, you are essentially stuck grinding one instance. If itemization was broader, you might have the option to run different instances/zones and have an actual raid calendar. With large scale raids, you might have server pickup raiding happening.

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Assuming something like the CT system were implemented now you're grinding a single encounter after the initial phase of progression. Especially if content beyond that is made "harder" the onus is on coordinated groups to grind gear for all 8 members before even considering alternate statics, FC pugs, what have you. I don't think you realize what you're necessarily asking for nor suggesting. Moreover, I don't see what would really change or be made better necessarily, nor would it actually help people who already have issues with time constraints.

If you're suggesting something like world bosses... personally, I have zero interest in playing a game that is reliant on spawn timers. I suppose there's also encounters that could be gated by tokens but we're still talking about swapping out weekly locks for grind mechanisms.

The FFXIV system really does lend itself to maintaining only one character, so I would be fine with anything to increase flexibility in that regard even if it can be a double edged sword. But I do know many people who maintain 2 separate characters to be able to raid more than once per reset, so I dunno.

I'm just kidding guys, I hope all your dreams come to reality.

Lets remove the small aspect of HC raiding and make this game 100% casual so it can cater to your schedules and needs.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

I'm just kidding guys, I hope all your dreams come to reality.

Lets remove the small aspect of HC raiding and make this game 100% casual so it can cater to your schedules and needs.

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I'm not advocating for removing difficulty. Just don't require a player to only be able to run on a specific, pre-determined time based on the last time they played the content. How does this at all affect hard core raiding?

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I'm not advocating for removing difficulty. Just don't require a player to only be able to run on a specific, pre-determined time based on the last time they played the content. How does this at all affect hard core raiding?

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If anything a non lockout RNG and tokens system is more hardcore because you can run difficult content non stop, an entire day or a whole week if you want to, eventually enough times to get all of the gear drops faster than everyone and show em online, instead of the current system where you might have cleared Coil weekly since it launched but still gotten nothing for your main class. But I guess getting lucky on that single weekly drop and bragging about it is what kids today are into.

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Originally Posted by Roris

If anything a non lockout RNG and tokens system is more hardcore because you can run difficult content non stop, an entire day or a whole week if you want to, eventually enough times to get all of the gear drops faster than everyone and show em online, instead of the current system where you might have cleared Coil weekly since it launched but still gotten nothing for your main class. But I guess getting lucky on that single weekly drop and bragging about it is what kids today are into.

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It's funny because it seems like a few players would have you believe that it takes less skill to prove you can consistently win an encounter multiple times with multiple people and different party configurations in order to earn your drops via a token or CT system rather than joining a Turn 9 party getting a single win and getting lucky on a drop via RNG.

Got my weap on my 5th down, no single wins here, Mr Weathered.

And even if I didnt get the drop I was 100% satisfied for the T8 weap since its more than enough to get the job done. RNG is a terrible excuse since the turns reward you with guaranteed gear through sands and oil. You will always be rewarded if you actually put work in, no luck needed.

Yes please! CT style system would be far more optimal for everyone. It also means I could actually help my FC mates, and play at my discretion (more) to get a chance at loot if people are busy or something. Straight RNG is a pretty terrible system. Soldiery appeases it some, but unlucky is unlucky, and some can go months without loot.

The Sands/Oils aren't enough either. The group has to be downing T9 consistently to even make it feasable. Even then, that is 2 of each per week, and takes 4 weeks to get each person the upgrades. If they aren't downing T9, then it is 8 weeks for each if that is even the agreed upon method in the group.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

Got my weap on my 5th down, no single wins here, Mr Weathered.

And even if I didnt get the drop I was 100% satisfied for the T8 weap since its more than enough to get the job done. RNG is a terrible excuse since the turns reward you with guaranteed gear through sands and oil. You will always be rewarded if you actually put work in, no luck needed.

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Looks like i hit a nerve there

I'm sure i don't have to tell you that the group you're in isn't the only group doing coil, and while you personally may have gotten your weapon on the 5th drop there are many other groups who have yet to see certain pieces drop at all.

With the various ways being added for Unidentified Allagan Tomestones, Sands of Time, and Oils of Time to be acquired outside of coil, they don't really serve the purpose of your argument anymore.

I'm more curious as to why anyone would care about more flexibility and the ability of others to enjoy the game as if it actually has any affect on them, It doesn't stop you from running coil as you have been and it doesn't devalue the efforts of those who are actively completing it.

Sure people will sell runs, so what?

If it bothers people so much then don't run with people who buy wins, i know i sure won't.

There honestly isn't enough hardcore content in this game for the mentality that people are trying to toss around on this issue, this isn't ground kings or HNMs from back in the day. It's few 8 man raids that have most people who are completing them logging in for 1 - 2 days to farm them and then logging off until reset, while an even larger number of people are leaving the game over it.

Huh, is this weathered thing the new "how many relics do you have?", it's kinda silly because most groups rotate their stones, sands and oils so everyone gets one eventually and a single person doesn't hoard them, I only have an unweathered tabard and earring because it's fair for the group, it is a group effort after all. Though I guess some groups don't do that and people can get lucky enough to gloat about all the drop luck they've gotten. Sad that bragging about MMO achievements and RNG is all some people have.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

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Practice some patience, you will get your way as soon as they release more content. My point was if you were clearing at least t6-8 you wouldn't be as frustrated as you are now since there's still ways to itemize and gear through guaranteed upgrade items. I hope the new methods, such as CT and hunts can keep you guys satisfied until new content comes out and they open up SCOB like they did with the first turns.

This maybe an unpopular opinion but I now feel loot lockouts are bad. I used to be all for them but CT changed my mind on that. I personally feel loot lockouts is what made CT a complete cesspool and the most unpleasant thing to queue for in DF. This is because people were burning themselves out running CT over and over and over desperately trying to get a piece of gear they want before the loot lockout reset.

I don't know what a good solution would be as there are pros and cons to both. The only idea I can think of is to make it an FC perk. Hopefully I can explain this right. Make it so that when you do a clear of a boss you are locked out just like before but if someone in your FC starts a run you can join flagged as a comrade or something. Comrades cannot receive loot from a run.

So basically you'd still be trying to get loot from coil in the same fashion as before where it's 1 drop per 8 people per room per week. But It gives FCs more flexibility to help allow everyone interested in coil the ability to join and help each other out.

This might not be the best system though. For one it's pretty abusable since those with comrades in their party will have less loot eligible mates and therefore a higher probability of getting gear. Which is why I'd at least limit it to FCmates only and not general public. But I still see it getting abused. I really don't know what a good solution would be

Well at least, you are proposing something and it is constructive. Also if you expand your idea to the general public, it would content those who are concerned about selling runs, getting gear more quickly... As the lockout would be the same (wrt atm) and people are now able to play with friends.

Also an advantage is that now experienced players can help less experienced one to improve. Yeah it is difficult to help someone if you don't play with him. It could create a dynamic that improves the skill of the player base.

Kinda torn on this. I won 3 pieces of loot between T6-8 this week. I wouldn't have this option if the loot lockout changed.

I also have a friend that needs a tank just to help them get through turns.

There's also the potential for the selling of runs for people that are good enough to do it to carry people, which will in turn promote RMT due to the costs associated with running someone through SCoB.

It's a touchy situation for SE. From a character growth standpoint, the current system favors the player since you can potentially get more than one piece of gear a week, and for multiple classes if mains no longer need it. If you change it to a CT system then to get everything out of SCoB (I know not everything is considered best in slot, but just saying) it'd take roughly 12 weeks just to fill your slots, plus extra for any oils/sands you need.

I wonder how many of the people out there that are currently i105+ would feel had this been the system in place from the start. Would you sacrifice your personal progression and feel compelled to do nothing but run SCoB all week in exchange for being able to help out other people? I fear in most cases that almost every other thing you can do in the game would be neglected just to spam Coil over and over, and with the man hours put into developing the various types of content in this game I doubt Yoshi-P wants everyone to flock to only one of many options.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

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This isn't an issue. Here the solution:

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Originally Posted by Mattiux

You can avoid the problem with a different lockout than the CT one, just put a flag on the clear. The player can roll on the loot only the first time he close it up.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

admit you want a carry.

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lol man if i want a carry i can just go to the first party of my FC and ask for a carry, easy. Don't need the remove of the lockout xD that's not the problem.
We want a different lockout because right now the system split up the community and split up the FC. I have the melee work on a turn basis at the Hospital. So organize all is a mad thing,Why the melee of another party of my FC can not help that evening to try if he finished T9 or if he don't have to try ?
For non-english/non-japanese community is a pain pick up a pug, because he can't join on teamspeak. Open your mind, don't be so close in your little world of loot and carry.

Oh, an interesting topic...
I am also thinking this system is really one of the worse they could have done. This lockout killed my previous FC. Many of my friends left the game. I personnaly changed server to try to find fresh air. But situation is the same: I found a very nice FC with very kind people. But my working hours make things hard, and I was not able to go in a "roster". I feel more and more frutuated about this. I cannot progress, most of my time in game is wasted by doing stupid PF with "experienced" people. Or not. Since satisfaction is not here anymore, I am really thinking about stopping the game. I love it, but this system just screw up everything. There are plenty of more clever ways to proceed (many good proposals in this thread, for example). Think about this, SE...