really because about a year ago before this game was even released I was under the impression that Conj was whm and THM was BLM.. they nerfed heals on THM i mean really? What do you want to be then? A DD? then play DD but just realize if you are conj you will most likely end up having to back up heal. And with refresh you would atleast be able to have MP regen in the fight, which isn't the same as decreasing MP costs because you could be doing other things aside from casting spells, AKA fighting or spirit darts.. and sorry that all of you want to burn through mana nuking everything to shit.
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07-22-2011, 05:40 PMRathSkybreaker
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07-22-2011, 05:42 PMRinsuiBut we have an auto-attack...?Quote:
And it is a complete joke that Conjurer ranged attacks are every 10 seconds while DoW have auto-attack from their range.
What are you talking about? -
07-22-2011, 05:43 PMShaiI just did dungeons right now. I ran out of MP at least 2x per floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
See how this works both ways?
How many mages did you bring anyway? -
07-22-2011, 05:47 PMLuxLex
I bet the mages had fun doing nothing during that time too. Sure is fun standing in the back waiting to single target cure, and then standing around waiting for mp. Fun fun fun.
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07-22-2011, 05:49 PMDubontJust did the r45, took 2 con. Put your weapon up between mob waves and the MP management isn't so bad. Ogre battle was rough...there just isn't enough MP for that fight at allQuote:
Originally Posted by Shai
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07-22-2011, 05:50 PMOscillate_Wildly
I don't speak for everyone when I say this but I liked being a healer, I just feel like SE is doing one thing and saying another.
This is what they're saying: "Play how you like, whenever you like!" What they're doing: Pigeon holing conjurers into the role of White mage. By reducing their role by removing their effectiveness as ranged Melee, it puts more pressure on Cons (who want to deal damage) to cast more offensive spells.
Problem? Higher MP costs. Sure they were in need of a slight boost, but by THIS much? Hells to the no. In the adjustment patch that is sure to follow I pray that is one thing that will be reduced dramatically. Maybe not to what it was pre-patch, but this is something that needs to be looked into. Stamina had its place when it came to basic attacks, but without it? People forget that XIV's battle system was DESIGNED around stamina. I've heard arguments that Stamina + recast timers were redundant, and perhaps they were but we'll never know because I feel like instead of tweaking and adjusting a system that was already in place they've COMPLETELY shattered fighting to the point where clearly it's not just one or two people complaining anymore.
I appreciate the lack of pessimism, yet I face-palm when others tell us we're just whiny children whenever we suggest another solution to the problem. We are optimists too, otherwise why would we still be here shooting out suggestions even now after the fact?
The fact is this: This patch was incredibly flawed and broken. It's one thing to release content that can be tweaked as time goes on, it's another thing entirely to take the heart of the game, rip it apart, and release an unfinished model that should have been tested by players on a test server first. This is very unprofessional of SE from my personal point of view. It'd be one thing to have that view on the dungeons, but on the BATTLE SYSTEM? Unacceptable.
It was unfinished, clearly it's in need of adjustments, but as it is right now, auto-attack and the removal of stamina should NOT have been included in this patch. -
07-22-2011, 05:50 PMShaiIt could still be possible, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
Dont' forget Tranquility and you can always Sleep it and get some MP back, too.
I already used that trick on Bardi a few times. Sleep, Passive, 300mp back, sleep, etc.
That makes a 10min fight a 30-40 min fight though. ^^ -
07-22-2011, 05:50 PMAstrayLast time I checked, mages were backline jobs. Would you really want your mage wailing away at melee range?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinsui
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07-22-2011, 05:51 PMNeptuneWhat informed your opinion? Your ass? Maybe it was the elemental magic that convinced you Conjurer was a WHM? In fact, go to www.finalfantasyxiv.com again and read the class descriptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker
The auto attack only works when you're in the mob's face. As we all know, that is not where we want to be if we don't want status effects, silence, sleep, aoe damage, etc. So standing back = no auto attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinsui
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07-22-2011, 05:51 PMOscillate_WildlyIt's....difficult to explain. I'm not sure how well it works, but I couldn't auto-attack from the back where it was safe to avoid AoE attacks. I had to be in melee range to hit anything to avoid the "You're out of range" message every 10 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinsui
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07-22-2011, 05:53 PMShai2000 huh? I have MND of 130 and I only have 1400 when in Full Party with the 15% boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lignum
I guess I could shit all my other stats to 10 and get 175 MND (and I might, since I'm forced to) but that's not playing how I want to play anymore. Sigh. -
07-22-2011, 05:55 PMNeptunelol.. yeah f that. My PIE is 171 and it's staying there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
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07-22-2011, 05:59 PMOscillate_WildlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Shai
Yes, this is a problem people don't seem to understand either. Personally I don't like to be a 'squishy mage' as others insist I be. It's kind of important to be able to take a few hits, how else am I supposed to survive and heal your sorry arses. You can't blame poor mp management on every argument brought up on this topic. If your tank or other members of the party are taking on too much damage, what do you expect us to do? Tell them to suck it up, and rape their stats, and put everything in to Vitality? No, this is what I suggest, tell your DD's to watch their enmity, there's no excuse now you have a bar for that. Tanks? Gear and proper stat alignment is crucial. With the ability either no, or in the future, to align your stats per class there's no excuse for you to have 100 INT as a gladiator. Use your skills correctly and practice.
That's not how things work. You can't blame us for being cross on this subject. Before long you'll be complaining about this, and they'll remove self-stat assignment as well. I think for me that'd be the last straw. They took a system that allowed me to play how I want, and now? auto-attack I admit is a nice step in the right direction, but along with that came a slew of problems completely unrelated.
Also, was AoE toggle REALLY so bad? I shouldn't be needing to heal my tank every 3 seconds, it's not my fault if he's taking on too much damage for what he is. But now with all this curaga crap my skill list is bloated. -
07-22-2011, 06:04 PMTibian
As a level 30 Conjurer I wanted to test out the solo capabilities in Nanawa mines with the new MP issues. I get the fact that I Nanawa mines is all crowded and AOE is very difficult there but I wanted to test it anyway.
So I went in, did ok on the first 8 out of 10 mobs I had to complete. Was getting 150 SP per with GA. The experience was ok, but at this rate you're still not going to get to 50 in 3-4 months like Yoshi has stated in his producer letters.
How was the overall experience?
I am all for increasing MP requirements on spells to make healing and casting more important, but the current rate of health gained vs MP lost is not optimal for survival.
This patch has killed solo play, killed leveling in general for people who prefer not to lather themselves in masochist grind parties, and overall has killed casters.
While I approve of making caster play more challenging and exciting, this patch did not do achieve that. It could be in part due to stats meaning next to nothing still (which is being addressed in 1.19) or the fact that the MP increase is just way to high.
Yes it was terrible. I am still saddened by the fact that it exists on other spells as well. The action bar clutter will ease itself when we get to keybind the rest and have multiple action bars available on screen.Quote:
Also, was AoE toggle REALLY so bad? I shouldn't be needing to heal my tank every 3 seconds, it's not my fault if he's taking on too much damage for what he is. But now with all this curaga crap my skill list is bloated.
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07-22-2011, 06:08 PMOscillate_WildlyI feel like everything you've mentioned thus far is a perfect example of why this adjustment should have been released in 1.19 or 1.20 with the rest of the related adjustments. Like I said, you cannot take the heart of the entire game and leave it this incomplete for a month while you finish up the rest of the related systemQuote:
Originally Posted by Tibian
ie weapon delay, stat adjustment and tweaks, and HOPEFULLY a designated attack button. I wonder if people are truly blind to how bad this REALLY is? -
07-22-2011, 06:11 PMDubont
to all of the naysayers...you do know that this isn't the complete battle system right? This is just the foundation...
I repeat
THIS IS NOT THE FINAL VERSION OF THE BATTLE SYSTEM AND IS NOWHERE NEAR WHAT IT WILL BE! -
07-22-2011, 06:12 PMVentusoh it's awful, as the hours roll on I'm seeing 1.18 is a giant failure only because it released certain things too early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
I've been very dedicated to this game since the beginning but for the first time this patch is making me want to take a good, long break.
It really is sad... -
07-22-2011, 06:16 PMVentuslol analogy time =D!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
patch 1.18 is like an incomplete artery bypass ^_^!
They went ahead and laid the foundation for this "surgical procedure" by slicing the artery but they didn't close the artery and now it's just bleeding out.
Gotta finish an idea before you begin it =P -
07-22-2011, 06:16 PMdarkstarpoet1you're not the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ventus
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07-22-2011, 06:17 PMOscillate_WildlyI don't feel like anyone has the right to say that about THE VERY HEART, LUNGS, AND SKELETAL SYSTEM OF AN MMO. At least the game retailed with a solid, albeit 'flawed' system that they tweaked up until Yoshida came into the picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
You cannot take something as vital as this and release a half-assed version of it during a live game. No one denies that it is in need of some SERIOUS adjustments and additions, but you're missing the point of the thread. Mages have gone from a versatile class into the begging of more pigeon hole/set role position.
Thaus used to be a good healer, but along with the necessary nerfs their role as healer has been made nul by making Curaga CON only, and reducing Sac I/II to single target only spells. This has made, unfortunately Cons the healer of choice. We all know how this went down in XI with Scholars. It's a genuine worry, and a change that was unnecessary. -
07-22-2011, 06:19 PMLuxLex
Re: heart surgery
Stop being a baby! Having to live with your heart cut up is challenging! -
07-22-2011, 06:20 PMAstrayYour comment isn't complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
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07-22-2011, 06:21 PMDubontMake sense please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astray
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07-22-2011, 06:24 PMShaiWell I mean ... if this had come with a Job System (WHM) or the stats-tied-to-your-class update, then I could at least pump up CON full of MND and pump up THM full of INT/PIE and let it ride, but yeah those things are still a month or two away in the best case scenario. My LS keeps telling me "they'll fix it with Jobs, Materia and Stats tied to your Class" and I'm like "Yeah, fucking awesome - and in the meantime I don't have a job to play that's fun. GG!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
I have 50 ARC GLA THM CON and I'm leveling LNC & MRD. You think I want 12 STR & DEX? and 20 VIT?
I was happy to have stats all around 80 and VIT & PIE 100-110 but as of today my MND already up to 130 and still not good enough for me to be even main healer, much less heal, nuke, dot, attack - just not possible. Ugh.
I cannot get over how much fun I had playing this game the way I wanted compared to the 3 dungeon runs I just did where I basically watched other people play and threw out cures (and still ran out of MP in about 1 minute of fighting Ogre and was like "GL, I'll be standing here in the corner for a few minutes.")
The TP analogy is fucking brilliant. I don't understand why Melee don't see it that way already. -
07-22-2011, 06:25 PMOscillate_WildlyGo back a page to the bottom. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
Anyway both of you, more constructive comments. o:< Or it's paddling time. <3 -
07-22-2011, 06:29 PMSeikninkuruThat's what I been saying for the past few months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
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07-22-2011, 06:32 PMDubontgotcha and the change was necessary to prepare for the upcoming jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
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07-22-2011, 06:34 PMPebe
Another topic I would like to bring up real fast, didn't they add alot of medicines this update? I skimmed through them so i don't really remember, did any of them happen to be mp recovery medicines? Maybe the uses of medicines will help the mp issues a bit? I mean this content is supposed to be challenging right? So we should use everything we have at our disposal(Spelling?). For instance in ffxi, when CoP first came out, you stacked every med in the book just to have a hope of winning alot of the fights. Especially CoP 6-4 for those who know what I'm talking about XD.
Edit: I have yet to use an mp med in this game, so I don't know how potent they are. -
07-22-2011, 06:41 PMOscillate_WildlyNo argument there, but then they should have saved those for then. The unnecessary part was adding them now. I'm not denying that some day this will all go together, but you don't buy a puzzle with half the pieces missing. The choice to add half the battle fix to a content update was ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
And anyway, I still have a problem with that. Not every conjurer leveled that job to be a white mage. Of course we're going to be pissed, especially when this game boasts freedom, only to be given a system that does the exact opposite. Sacrifice II should still be AoE, Curaga I and II should have been introduced with the new job system, AoE toggle didn't have to be removed so soon, and could have lasted up until 1.19 or 20, whichever has the job system.
What SE has done is taken bits of one patch, and thrown them into another too early. There is no 'preparing', I am no more prepared now for Jobs than I would have been in another month. It's unwelcome and restrictive. Jobs are an extension of classes, the two mage classes should never have been touched in the way they have.
Like I said earlier, doing one thing and saying another. I do not see freedom of play-style in any of these additions, all I see is precedence for more pigeon holing.
It's nice to have classes unique in one way or another, and that could have been done easily (and has) by the addition of class-specific spells such as Raise II. What they did to THM by neutering it as a healer, that was uncalled for. =/ I don't see "Freedom to play as you like" in any of that. -
07-22-2011, 06:44 PMOscillate_WildlyI did see a lot of temp. use items and medicines, and possibly! If that's the case than I'd love if they boosted the effects of potions and Ethers that we currently have! As an alchemist they are easily produced, but not very helpful especially in the case of boss battles as they don't replenish a lot of MP. And with the current boost in MP cost, I don't even know if one ether would cover the cost of one heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pebe
For melee though they'd be great, and that's a great catch! :D From what I saw, they didn't cost a lot of seals, so it'd probably be a worthwhile investment to start stocking up on such items, particularly if you can carry more than one at a time. I'd love to see strategies involving both skills and items to make a re-appearance. At times they were obnoxious in XI, but it was always fun to find out that a combination of certain farm-able items weakened a boss. -
07-22-2011, 06:52 PMdarkstarpoet1i could be mistaken but i believe the ethers stack to 12, but i don't remember if they were changed after the stack sizes changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
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07-22-2011, 06:53 PMNeptunelathering themselves.. lol. Excellent choice of words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibian
You're right, the final version could be 10x worse. Keep in mind I didn't make this thread to complain.. I wrote it to ask the dev team to reverse course. We don't want to head down this path, and we don't need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
Man that's messed up. I haven't gotten a chance to run it, but that's exactly what I predicted would happen. That is so lame. 1 minute of gameplay. So much for getting creative during long fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
Your sig is very disturbing to me. Lol. What is going on in there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
I used an ether once I think. It was about 50 mp if I remember right. I didn't see them on the list they were talking about, but if you could get ahold of them from an alchemist you'd be spamming those things like no tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pebe
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07-22-2011, 06:55 PMLuxLex
except you can't spam them, you get a medicated effect and can't use another for a set time, or that is how it was before anyway.
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07-22-2011, 06:57 PMSuzakuCMX
They really do need to change food :<
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07-22-2011, 06:57 PMOscillate_WildlyEthers for sure stack to 12, but I'm not sure about the brand new medicines. Only because pre-patch at least 2 new quests gave a one time only medicine, which I'm curious if that has been offered in exchange of seals as well. They were very pretty, had pretty names too. o:Quote:
Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1
More uses for current alchemist concoctions would be brilliant too. If Unguents offered a modest boost in stats instead of casting protect on the member, at the cost of a smaller time limit (15 minutes, compared to 30 offered by meals) as well as a medicine debuff that allows only so much to be taken in an hour, that'd be great. Ahhh, alchemy. <3 I hope it becomes a lot more useful in the future, more than just a dye machine. ):
Edit: @ Neptune: I have no idea really, I found it on Tumblr in the harry potter tag. I have a few like it though, aren't they disturbing?! It's Voldemort's face plastered over various popartists/women. It's crazy. -
07-22-2011, 06:58 PMNeptunelong-shot fail backup strategy OWNED!Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxLex
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07-22-2011, 07:01 PMSuzakuCMXPotions and Ethers and Elixirs and etc have always been a large part of success in FF titles :[ But in this one they are 100% useless. It's kinda crushing, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
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07-22-2011, 07:01 PMOscillate_Wildly
Is medicated really such a bad drawback? D: I think if medicines offer more buff effects than food, a medicated or shorter effect time is almost necessary to make food not useless.
But I completely agree, their effects need to be boosted to really have a place in this game. They weren't fun at all to buy in XI, but are much easier to make in XIV so as an alchemist it'd be nice to have more than just dye or glue to sell especially since I CAN make them.
In the future if they do more with elemental alignment, the creation of elemental ethers might mean more too. O: -
07-22-2011, 07:02 PMDubont
Siphon MP, Siphon MP 2, Tranquility, Spiritbind, Radiance. Learn how to use them effectively.
Also, Con has 3 different types of 0mp cost, long ranged attacks that it can use to gather TP for Radiance. -
07-22-2011, 07:03 PMLuxLex
But food is still useless... lol cooking and alc were my two main crafts before I took my break. Both are mostly useless (alc at least can make shards)