It's official Parsers are illegal in FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Shaone

Including SE? http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/b6e2e32b45a/

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Yes, SE should ban everyone that accesses their website.

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(edit: And they slammed XIVDB and a ton of sites with C&D when they DAT mined the data from the benchmarks before it went on Lodestone ;) )

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Lol. SE is so pathetic in some ways. Trying as hard as possible to shoot themselves in the foot. Reason #324 why FF14 is a "primitive" MMORPG compared to basically everything else.

Parser is a third party program so it is illegal. However, most people use them to see if they are doing something wrong. Parsers does tell you, "There's something wrong with your damage or healing in that period of time."

But, Parsers don't tell you how to fix it. It's your job as a player to discover what's wrong with you. I don't know a single serious and dedicated group that wouldn't use such program to improve their gameplay.

SE is aware of that. Parsers are indeed illegal since they are a third party program but they don't hunt and track down the players using Parsers. Because they know if they'd do that and start banning everybody they'd lose all of their community. They will only ban those using Parser for malicious uses.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

SE is aware of that. Parsers are indeed illegal since they are a third party program but they don't hunt and track down the players using Parsers. Because they know if they'd do that and start banning everybody they'd lose all of their community. They will only ban those using Parser for malicious uses.

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this would be the difference between prohibited and bannable. a prohibited action unenforced is not bannable, until the point where the prohibited action causes problems in the game. harassment or cheating would be the point where it becomes bannable. I personally don't use a parser because I don't want to come anywhere near the line of prohibited/bannable. but if others want to push the line and risk being banned, then use it at your own risk. but if you get banned you have no one to blame but yourself.

Sorry, thread, I've been parsing your results and you're just putting out way too much stupid. See:

1. Stupid (140) 82.35%
2. "Alright" (28) 16.47%
3. Miss (2) 1.18%

Now I'm going to have to ask you to either pull it together or find another forum.

Am I the only one that whipped out a calculator to see if those percentages were fabricated or real?

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

Sorry, thread, I've been parsing your results and you're just putting out way too much stupid. See:

1. Stupid (140) 82.35%
2. "Alright" (28) 16.47%
3. Miss (2) 1.18%

Now I'm going to have to ask you to either pull it together or find another forum.

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I just gotta ask the question. How did you parse your own post? This thread only had 169 hits before your findings!

Something seems fishy here...

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Am I the only one that whipped out a calculator to see if those percentages were fabricated or real?

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I assure you, you are not the only one...

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

this would be the difference between prohibited and bannable. a prohibited action unenforced is not bannable, until the point where the prohibited action causes problems in the game. harassment or cheating would be the point where it becomes bannable. I personally don't use a parser because I don't want to come anywhere near the line of prohibited/bannable. but if others want to push the line and risk being banned, then use it at your own risk. but if you get banned you have no one to blame but yourself.

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Use of a parser is bannable. They are not going to actively pursue you unless you start putting people on blast aka harassment. It's a don't ask, don't tell policy. The ban is a result of the prohibited action. Regardless if the action is enforced or not, a prohibited action is, well, prohibited. You can go shoplift and not get caught or the shopkeep not stop you, but just because you got away doesn't make it any less illegal.

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

Sorry, thread, I've been parsing your results and you're just putting out way too much stupid. See:

1. Stupid (140) 82.35%
2. "Alright" (28) 16.47%
3. Miss (2) 1.18%

Now I'm going to have to ask you to either pull it together or find another forum.

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Did you parse with or without trollpost? Going to need more data before accepting these numbers.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

The ban is a result of the prohibited action. Regardless if the action is enforced or not, a prohibited action is, well, prohibited. You can go shoplift and not get caught or the shopkeep not stop you, but just because you got away doesn't make it any less illegal.

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when they acknowledge that they won't enforce a rule unless it causes problems... that's a lot different than shoplifting. unless you're analogizing to a fictional world where stores acknowledge that shoplifting is okay as long as you keep it hush hush.

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

when they acknowledge that they won't enforce a rule unless it causes problems... that's a lot different than shoplifting. unless you're analogizing to a fictional world where stores acknowledge that shoplifting is okay as long as you keep it hush hush.

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Regardless of what Yoshi says, they will abide by the ToS. If you get busted, Yoshi isn't going to come to your aid.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Regardless of what Yoshi says, they will abide by the ToS. If you get busted, Yoshi isn't going to come to your aid.

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alright you're missing the point or just want to troll. you used a shoplifting analogy that doesn't work because a shoplifting analogy would require a situation where the store manager says "shoplift but only if you can keep it hush hush." the TOS says that third party programs or tools are prohibited because they give players an unfair advantage over other players. based on what the TOS says, programs like mumble or teamspeak are also prohibited, yet you don't see these threads that say "omg mumble is bannable!" Yoshi said if you use a parser keep it quiet. take that statement as you wish. but your shoplifting analogy just fails.

I don't really see the problem with having something simple as a damage meter just to see your dps. It's not implemented, it's useful and just fun in general...

But then again, not worth risking a ban for a simple addon ofc.

I want dps meters in this game like the ones we had in wow. a little meter with bars showing who's in the lead in dps actively updating it as the fight goes on.

That meter made fights ALOT more fun in wow honestly, lol. Made you really realize just how much all your refinements mattered, and made you wanna keep figuring out more.

I still cringe at the fact that telling people to step it up is now considered "harassment"

I'm not sure how "we have identified several parties that used illegitimate practices" and "only two parties have legitimately completed “The Second Coil of Bahamut - Turn 3”" translates into anything having to do with parsing. If the groups were parsing turn 3 then wouldn't they have been parsing turn 1 and 2, and how was that not a violation or "illegitimate completion of.."?

Seems like over reaction here..

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'm not sure how "we have identified several parties that used illegitimate practices" and "only two parties have legitimately completed “The Second Coil of Bahamut - Turn 3”" translates into anything having to do with parsing. If the groups were parsing turn 3 then wouldn't they have been parsing turn 1 and 2, and how was that not a violation or "illegitimate completion of.."?

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From the official post:

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Although we will continue to monitor game data to ensure that similar illegitimate practices are not being used, we would like to remind players that using third-party programs, parsers, or other tools to conduct actions players would not normally be able to do in the game is a violation of the Terms of Service, and will be dealt with strict disciplinary action.

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Bold is mine. Hope that helps! ^^

"to conduct actions players would not normally be able to do in the game is a violation of the Terms of Service"

Parsing is not a crime, people on the forums just cant stand being told with factual evidence they are doing something wrong, so they foam at the mouth and just scream for bans.

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

alright you're missing the point or just want to troll. you used a shoplifting analogy that doesn't work because a shoplifting analogy would require a situation where the store manager says "shoplift but only if you can keep it hush hush." the TOS says that third party programs or tools are prohibited because they give players an unfair advantage over other players. based on what the TOS says, programs like mumble or teamspeak are also prohibited, yet you don't see these threads that say "omg mumble is bannable!" Yoshi said if you use a parser keep it quiet. take that statement as you wish. but your shoplifting analogy just fails.

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In a sense you are right, it is more like a wal-mart employee saying s/he doesn't care what you do, just be hush hush. When you get caught, don't expect said employee to come to your aid. I also suggest you read Section 2 subsection 5 of your ToS. Then read section 3 subsection 6. This is the problem with parsers.

Mumble, TS, and Vent or any number of communication tools outside of FFXIV have nothing to do with the game's data....

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Originally Posted by Moheeheeko

"to conduct actions players would not normally be able to do in the game is a violation of the Terms of Service"

Parsing is not a crime, people on the forums just cant stand being told with factual evidence they are doing something wrong, so they foam at the mouth and just scream for bans.

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No one said it was a crime, it's just against the ToS, technically speaking.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

In a sense you are right, it is more like a wal-mart employee saying s/he doesn't care what you do, just be hush hush. When you get caught, don't expect said employee to come to your aid. I also suggest you read Section 2 subsection 5 of your ToS. Then read section 3 subsection 6. This is the problem with parsers.

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Yep, Yoshi is just the guy stacking the shelves full of delicious content. He doesn't decide how much it costs, or how many security guards to employ, just keeps stacking the shelves and knowing that as long as those shelves keep emptying his job is safe.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Mumble, TS, and Vent or any number of communication tools outside of FFXIV have nothing to do with the game's data....

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http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...6&id=5382&la=1

under activities that destroy game balance, lodestone's rules and polices for the game states, "Using third party programs or tools in FINAL FANTASY XIV is strictly prohibited since they allow users to gain an unfair advantage over other players." it does not limit "third party programs" that are prohibited to only programs that deal with the game's data.

and if we really want to get super technical the TOS says "3.3 Profanity and Offensive Language. You may not use profanity or any language that a reasonable person would find offensive. The Game is for players aged 13 and older. You agree to behave accordingly." How many people still curse in the game. OMG CURSING IS A BANNABLE OFFENSE!

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...6&id=5382&la=1

under activities that destroy game balance, lodestone's rules and polices for the game states, "Using third party programs or tools in FINAL FANTASY XIV is strictly prohibited since they allow users to gain an unfair advantage over other players." it does not limit "third party programs" that are prohibited to only programs that deal with the game's data.

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Within the game.... Comms are separate from FFXIV. You should read and quote the entire section. And you still haven't read the ToS.

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...6&id=5382&la=1

under activities that destroy game balance, lodestone's rules and polices for the game states, "Using third party programs or tools in FINAL FANTASY XIV is strictly prohibited since they allow users to gain an unfair advantage over other players." it does not limit "third party programs" that are prohibited to only programs that deal with the game's data.

and if we really want to get super technical the TOS says "3.3 Profanity and Offensive Language. You may not use profanity or any language that a reasonable person would find offensive. The Game is for players aged 13 and older. You agree to behave accordingly." How many people still curse in the game. OMG CURSING IS A BANNABLE OFFENSE!

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It is what it is...

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Originally Posted by Demetirus

From the official post:



Bold is mine. Hope that helps! ^^

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I read the post but they did not say anything specific to banning accounts for parsing. Just because they mention parsers, along with a general "3rd party programs", does not mean these people got banned for simply parsing.

Pretty much every team on the fore front of new coil is parsing, not just for DPS, but for fairly important things such as determining the accuracy cap. Seems a little unreasonable to simply ban people for trying to figure out the accuracy, or how much HP the boss may have or their own personal DPS.. There is more to the story, that's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

-snip-

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I have no stake or opinion either way, I just wanted to show you the spot where folks seem to be finding contention as I thought you were unsure. Sorry if I was mistaken, was just trying to help. ^^

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

and if we really want to get super technical the TOS says "3.3 Profanity and Offensive Language. You may not use profanity or any language that a reasonable person would find offensive. The Game is for players aged 13 and older. You agree to behave accordingly." How many people still curse in the game. OMG CURSING IS A BANNABLE OFFENSE!

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If this were a BANNABLE offense, SE would not have included a profanity filter. Its not just cursing that is considered offensive language and if people ARE offended by profanity, they are likely safe and sound still behind there profanity filter.

I like knowing how much damage I'm doing. it's like timing how fast you can run a mile.

sadface

Has this been posted yet?

I mean really.

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Originally Posted by jars

I like knowing how much damage I'm doing. it's like timing how fast you can run a mile.

sadface

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But don't forget: If you tell someone they ran their mile in 7 minutes, it is considered harassment. Also, owning a stopwatch is toxic and elitist.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

But don't forget: If you tell someone they ran their mile in 7 minutes, it is considered harassment. Also, owning a stopwatch is toxic and elitist.

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..........

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

But don't forget: If you tell someone they ran their mile in 7 minutes, it is considered harassment. Also, owning a stopwatch is toxic and elitist.

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If I go out for my morning run and you follow me with a stop watch the whole way and tell me I need to learn how to run. Yeah that would be harassment. You aren't other players coach.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

If I go out for my morning run and you follow me with a stop watch the whole way and tell me I need to learn how to run. Yeah that would be harassment. You aren't other players coach.

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I agree. This kind of feedback should be reserved for relay races or other team competitions where the two of us depend on each other to succeed.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

But don't forget: If you tell someone they ran their mile in 7 minutes, it is considered harassment. Also, owning a stopwatch is toxic and elitist.

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lol xD Well, close enough.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

If I go out for my morning run and you follow me with a stop watch the whole way and tell me I need to learn how to run. Yeah that would be harassment. You aren't other players coach.

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Yes it would be, but it's really more along the lines of a one mile relay team. If your time isn't up to snuff then yeah expect to be cut and replaced, or at the very least be sent into remedial training. Like wise if a damage dealer wearing i90+ gear in Coil is pulling 160 dps he/she should expect the same. The solution to this issue is simple in that people just need to take the time to learn how to properly perform at their jobs rather than getting bent out of shape over a software program.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

But don't forget: If you tell someone they ran their mile in 7 minutes, it is considered harassment. Also, owning a stopwatch is toxic and elitist.

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A better way to put it is like this. The person that ran a 7min mile might not care if they ran it in 7 minutes or if someone did it better than them, they are playing how they want to play. In the same sense a parser when used in the manner of micro-managing peoples rotations takes away from the fun of just playing the game because it no longer becomes the person's personal ability to know how much stronger they can get, but rather a person who is obtaining the numbers to force them into a playstyle they have yet to adjust into.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

I agree. This kind of feedback should be reserved for relay races or other team competitions where the two of us depend on each other to succeed.

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Let's keep comparing the game to work/sport. I know the elitest crowd sees the game differently and measures their success in life on how well they do in a video game, but for the other 99% a video game is a leisurely activity. Those who aren't playing this game competitively to grow their e-peen don't want some random guy they don't know running behind them telling them they suck.

People in static groups are a team, they play with each other all the time and improve with each other. Harassing some random person on how they play is a different story, they aren't asking for it and you are not their coach. Maybe the analogy is they are training in order to eventually join a team. There is a difference between a teammate telling you to improve vs. some random person doing it. On a team its asked for, as a stranger you have no credibility. I think I will just go around to different people I don't know and tell them they could be doing their job better, we'll see how that goes.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

If this were a BANNABLE offense, SE would not have included a profanity filter. Its not just cursing that is considered offensive language and if people ARE offended by profanity, they are likely safe and sound still behind there profanity filter.

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Unfortunately, if someone makes the choice to disable their profanity filter, and get offended by something you say it falls under harassment. Stupid I know, seeing there is blacklists and such, but whatever.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Of course, I'm reliant on it. I'll do whatever I can to improve me and my party's chances of success. I'm more interested in playing my video game on my own terms than I am interested in seeking some bullshit moral high ground where statistical data is the devil.

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So in the end you are using to just be elitists where it ain't needed. I hope you're not toxic but you're proving otherwise.

I'm glad I don't overly obsess over numbers.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

no it's not this is an abuse of the vote kick system and can be reported.

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It's only an abuse in DF, you can kick someone from your premade party for any reason.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Let's keep comparing the game to work/sport. I know the elitest crowd sees the game differently and measures their success in life on how well they do in a video game, but for the other 99% a video game is a leisurely activity. Those who aren't playing this game competitively to grow their e-peen don't want some random guy they don't know running behind them telling them they suck.

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Okay, how is your attitude any different than what you accuse "elitists" of?

You anti-parser people don't want "elitists" to hold you to their ridiculous standards, and you're afraid that parsers give them a reason to do so. I understand that and part of me agrees with all of you. People should respect the fact that not everyone else plays the game the same way that they do. People should not look down on other players who don't take the game as seriously as they do. I agree 100%.

You said:

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and measures their success in life on how well they do in a video game, but for the other 99% a video game is a leisurely activity.

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Do you not see the hypocrisy? You don't want people looking down on you for playing the game at a lower level of intensity than they do, and yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine to look down on people who play the game at a higher level of intensity than you do.

That's such an enormous cop out. Someone who takes their hobby seriously and strives to be good at it, and you label them as someone who compensates for their real life inadequacies by being good at video games. So what if somebody else wants to be good at the game and wants to use a parser to help them do it? Nobody's forcing casual players to install a parser. Why are you so intent on high level players to get rid of theirs?

Also, shame on you for bringing real life into this. People who play this game come from all walks of life. Some people are married with children, others are teenagers living in their parents' basements. Some are rich and successful, some are high school drop outs. Some are social butterflies and some are socially awkward. However, once we log in and become our video game personas, we're on equal terms. The game doesn't care who you are IRL. The only thing that matters is what you do in the game. That's why we play. So what the hell do you care about people's success in life? You cry "elitist" but you are the elitist here.

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People in static groups are a team, they play with each other all the time and improve with each other. Harassing some random person on how they play is a different story, they aren't asking for it and you are not their coach. Maybe the analogy is they are training in order to eventually join a team. There is a difference between a teammate telling you to improve vs. some random person doing it. On a team its asked for, as a stranger you have no credibility. I think I will just go around to different people I don't know and tell them they could be doing their job better, we'll see how that goes.

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I agree.

However, once you enter a duty, particularly a PF that clearly lays out what kind of group it is, you more-or-less accept the responsibility of carrying your weight in that duty. If you don't, you can't fault anyone for criticizing your play or removing you from the group. This isn't a matter of an "elitist" holding you to their standards. They don't set the standards; the game does. These standards are set by the task at hand: The boss' HP total, his damage output, the moves he does, etc...

If the damage dealers need to put out an average of X DPS each to successfully beat Titan EX and you fail to meet that requirement, you are a detriment to the group's ability to succeed. If they can't carry you, they will remove you. If they remove you, they owe you the courtesy of telling you why you were removed: "Your damage output was too low. You need to get better at your job." This is not elitism or toxicity. It's only math.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's only an abuse in DF, you can kick someone from your premade party for any reason.

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can't vote kick in dungeons in a premade so no real issue.