Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

This has been pretty much my experience. Videos are not some magical panacea, and they are a poor substitute for a willingness to learn and actual experience.

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That sums it up best.. my biggest problem with videos.. people become sheep and only do it by w/e video is most popular at the time when half the time there are better ways to do things! There are also some really questionable videos out there >.>;

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Logic: You can (and should) always seek to be a better player. You were not server first. You were not world first. If you tried harder, you might could be that way. You are skilled as a player but not the most skilled. World first groups may contain the most skilled player of a certain job but certainly not all of the players in that group are the top echelon of that job.

Corollary: There is no way for a progression oriented player to become better besides practice since most of the fights do not have strategies attached to them during the time that you do them in (aka: first few days of a new patch). Furthermore, you are not the only thing holding you back: there are 7 other players influencing your status in most cases.


In this way, progression oriented players are the ones who formulate the strategies. If we were to use school as an analogy, progression oriented players would be the ones who lay down the rules and laws as observed (and tested) by them while students are the ones who study those rules and laws.


Conclusion: Those who knowingly have access to a breadth of knowledge yet refuse to use it seek only to emulate those who came before them yet without the same passion and desire.

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You are being fairly logical about this (which thanks, it frustrates how most people aren't). But you seem to be making several assumptions here that are fundamentally not true for everyone.

First: I agree that players should not be lying about experience and joining parties that are looking for it. It is almost always frustrating both for them when they constantly get kicked, and for the party who is just trying to down content they already know. That isn't at issue here.

But second: this isn't a job to me. It isn't school. It is a game. For me, the fun is in solving problems. Not solving them first. But solving them at all. Why play a game where I have all the answers? Why pull out a puzzle and then follow someone else's exacting instructions to put it together? The fun is in the solving, not merely in the completing.

Efficiency says I should always try and find someone else who did something first, so I don't have to. However this is a game, which I do not even play professionally. For the challenge of solving things. Efficiency is only as relevant as the person's approach to the game.

I have no interest in being world first. What does that have to do with challenging myself? Therefore your argument that I am merely "emulating" those who came first is false, and irrelevant. I don't care if someone else has done it first. I get no thrill out of trying to tell other people they aren't as good as me and aren't allowed to challenge themselves because I did it first.

I don't care if I am the best player. I am not. I am however above average. This is something it took me a long time to realize, as I assumed I was well below average. But since I really don't care about being best, merely about enjoying myself and solving problems and formulating strategies on my own merits, it doesn't matter to me how much you try and convince me it isn't as efficient, or I will never be as good. That isn't the point for me (though clearly it is for many people).

My opinion on this, as it always has been, is that those who have a problem with other people playing "lazy" and "inefficiently" should stay away from them. They do in fact have the right to form experienced parties only. And kick people who lie their way in. But, this does not mean they also have the right to tell those other players how to play in general. Only how to play if they are going to play with them.

That seems to be a fundamental difference here: I don't force myself on experienced people. I in fact will warn people ahead of time I am going in blind, and that I have no interest in being hand fed answers. If this is a problem, I will leave, or they will. No hard feelings.

So for those who are arguing that people should conform to the rules of the PF, and not try to group with them if they won't play the same: I absolutely agree. But that doesn't mean I think it is required in general, or should be put out as the only way to play.

As for DF, it has always been for people who don't have access to an easy group so they can progress (and yes practice). So you will always get people of different mentalities. You can't avoid that. So know going in you can't control the situation and be okay with that, or don't join.

Until they add options to DF to try and segregate players (which I honestly never see happening), this will always be the case. Personally I often join DF titan to help groups learn. I find it fun when I get a group that is actually willing to learn. The rest who constantly give up, never learn. With or without videos and tutorials. The things that holds back DF titan is the lack of willingness to learn. Not the lack of research.

I agree with your comments for hte most part, except for Titan, I am afraid, at times, it may look as if someone doesnt wnat to learn but in truth that person cant do better then what said person is doing for reasons, that too is assuming that beacuse someone cant, he or she automatically doesnt want to learn, but simply that person cant because of .either technical issues or and yes it exists incapacity to actually understand accuratedly what is being said....should those be simply forbidden to play ? well no, they actually do what you said, they challenge themselves...and if they manage they truely made it on their own merit.

As for group that leaves, you are part of a group and even if you vote no to the *abandon* if majority says *yes* you are out, that doesnt mean you dont want to lean just that someone else decided you couldnt go on, careful with such statements of yours, while in essences true, they are not an absolute truth

Mei

Forum politics you all are locked in an eternal stalemate, neither side willing to come to some kinda agreement, nay they choose to beat each other with words to feel right on a gaming forum.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

But it in no way should be required.

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It's not hence why the title just says "common courtesy". You're not playing solo and others depend on you to perform your role.

People are just mad because they think "OH WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO DO EXTRA WERKZZ!! I PLAYZ FOR FUNZZIES!" I think is a bad way to look at it.

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Originally Posted by Doo

It's not hence why the title just says "common courtesy". You're not playing solo and others depend on you to perform your role.

People are just mad because they think "OH WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO DO EXTRA WERKZZ!! I PLAYZ FOR FUNZZIES!" I think is a bad way to look at it.

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I think we can all agree that we don't all play the same, and should play with those who are like minded. I will not force myself on people who don't play the same as I do, so kindly do the courteous thing, and do the same.

Your opinion is not mine. I will not join your "experienced only/know the rotations/must do your research" party. Similarly don't join my "new players welcome/no experience required" party.

As long as both sides follow this basic "common courtesy", this is a non issue.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

as said by odie, if a video was needed before any tryings, SE would give us a dev swift completion of every new content, ruining both the fun of new things AND the challenge of said things.

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Or so they will release half assed videos like the one for AV in FFXI, just to troll the playerbase =D

To some people, winning is the fun part of the game. They don't enjoy failure. They want everyone to research to reduce challenge. The perfect game is winning on the first try as quickly as possible.

To others, fun is learning, failing, and succeeding. I like to take on challenges fresh. When I'm experienced, I like to play with a mix of vets and noobs to keep things challenging and interesting. The perfect game is struggling and earning success.

The two perspectives aren't compatible. Fortunately FFXIV provides PF. I don't think winning should be the default mindset for DF. Let PF be for winning, while DF is a challenging mix of vets and noobs. No research required.

I guess the JP community uses DF for winning and PF for learning. I don't like this approach because there's less challenge, less mixing of vets and noobs. It optimizes farming and isolates noobs. It's ok that different places have different gaming values, but I don't want this approach in NA community.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

I guess the JP community uses DF for winning and PF for learning. I don't like this approach because there's less challenge, less mixing of vets and noobs. It optimizes farming and isolates noobs. It's ok that different places have different gaming values, but I don't want this approach in NA community.

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Ohh because the current approach doesn't isolate the beginners?

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

It's funny that you mention burdens. Time and time again, I am responsible for bearing the weight of the parties lives upon my shoulders as a Tank. Yet the above is the very cited attitude is what leads to many dying despite my having looked at things and prepared before diving in. Assumptions. Or a will and desire to not explain things so that I can keep people alive. Funny thing that. Tanks have an extraordinary responsibility upon their shoulders. More than DPS ever will. Dps can screw up and no one will notice. But if the tank even slips in the slightest, it is noticed immediately. And boy do we hear about it.

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You most likely thought this was probably clever since you could assumed my only role was DPS, thinking I haven't played a tank. Perhaps you thought you could garner sympathy for your cause. "Yes we tanks carry an extraordinary responsibility! I'm not lazy at all."

My PLD is i81. It's the most boring job I have at 50 with an ilevel higher than 80. Know what's more difficult? My MNK. My BLM. My SCH. Only BRD instills the same boredom that PLD does in me and yes: boredom, in this situation, equates to easiness.

I won't belittle your PLD, though. It's your job. But please don't think you have it hard.

Your response makes me think you are speaking about DF in the sense of myth farming dungeons instead of what we're actually speaking about: primals and endgame. You realize this is the name of the thread, right?

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

Other stuff

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Honestly, the only thing I've read from you in this thread was what I quoted. Your arguments don't persuade me. The only reason I even quoted you was

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But it in no way should be required.

Which is what many seem to wish to enforce upon others. Because hey, reasons of selfishness and impatience.

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only because of this. It's hypocritical.

You then went on to state that since you're a PLD, you're here to help people. Please stop using lines like this. I DF as a healer, DPS, and a tank yet on all three I'm there to help people. Your role as a tank doesn't mean anything in a game where people can play all three on one character. You do remember we were speaking of DF, right?

It's funny that you chastise me for wanting someone to have a certain mindset when you seek to do the very same thing. haha

I already stated:

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No one wants to enforce people to watch videos: we just think it's a good idea and any player seeking to be a well-rounded individual (whether in the real world or their FFXIV job) should strive to come as prepared as possible.

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And with that, I have nothing more to say to you less you somehow come to an understanding as to why it is a bad thing to willingly inconvenience other humans.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

But second: this isn't a job to me. It isn't school. It is a game. For me, the fun is in solving problems. Not solving them first. But solving them at all. Why play a game where I have all the answers? Why pull out a puzzle and then follow someone else's exacting instructions to put it together? The fun is in the solving, not merely in the completing.

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As many have pointed out: you won't have all the answers simply by watching a video. You WILL have a general idea, though. That is all most of us are asking for: not for you to be an expert the minute you step foot in an instance.

I do not want to spend another 111 attempts doing DF Titan HM only to succeed 3 times. I do not want OTHER players to experience that as well. For me, it was fine because I didn't need anything and I had no expectations. I knew what I was getting into. Can you imagine how others saw it, though? Those who actually needed the kill for their relic? Those who had been in my spot yet never once succeeded? It would be infuriating for them to join a Titan run in DF, where they had already put in the work, only to have someone not mention they're new and/or die every time to obvious prescripted events and/or didn't meet the minimum gear requirement that Titan should have had to begin with.

One of these problems has been fixed to alleviate strain. It has not solved all the problems with things like DF primals, though. What HAS helped many people is watching videos. Every time I go into Ifrit Ex in DF or in a PF group, I see most people follow the MrHappy strategy. People learned how to do that fight from a video yet some of you claim this can never happen.

I just have to wonder (because I haven't bothered to look any of you up): how many of you have actually done this content where videos would have helped you ahead of time? I keep getting the impression that the people responding with, "No! We shouldn't have to watch a video to win!" are players that consider things like DF WP and AK as the end.

Curious as to what you do (if you have) on things like Titan/Ifrit and Twin. Did you think any of the strategies you used were not generated by people who did it prior? That they weren't the strategies we used when we did the extremes first day of the patch? That everyone follows now because it makes sense to do it that way?

So basically what you want to do is go try one of these extreme/coil fights just so you can follow a strategy that was taken from a video whether you are aware of it or not? I see. This makes no sense whatsoever.

I feel like Meryl Streep now.

When I type it out like that and think about what I just wrote, it makes your argument seem even more disillusioned. You are actually following a strategy from a video whether you know it or not but somehow it's not an intelligent thing to do, in your head, to watch the video ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

My opinion on this, as it always has been, is that those who have a problem with other people playing "lazy" and "inefficiently" should stay away from them. They do in fact have the right to form experienced parties only. And kick people who lie their way in. But, this does not mean they also have the right to tell those other players how to play in general. Only how to play if they are going to play with them.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

That seems to be a fundamental difference here: I don't force myself on experienced people. I in fact will warn people ahead of time I am going in blind, and that I have no interest in being hand fed answers. If this is a problem, I will leave, or they will. No hard feelings.

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That's nice. If you had read the argument, you'd realize DF is actually an amalgamation of people with different skill levels. In certain encounters, DF rarely succeeds. In order to increase success rate, there isn't much you can do besides coming prepared.

You might be happy with not defeating something on your first try. How about the other person in the party who is there for the 53rd time and is relying on you to perform well?

You say you won't impose yourself upon people like this but if you ever decide to join a DF extreme primal, this is what you will be doing.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

As for DF, it has always been for people who don't have access to an easy group so they can progress (and yes practice). So you will always get people of different mentalities. You can't avoid that. So know going in you can't control the situation and be okay with that, or don't join.

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The problem is you can't control the entire situation but you can increase success rate which you seem to refuse to want to do.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Stuff

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My original comment was not even in regards to any of this stuff. But rather, towards your assuming other players not having the same passion as the trail blazers, as you so eloquently put it in a round about way. I have no idea why you went off on the tangent you did, but, hey. More power to you. *Shrugs*



Regardless and irrespective of your thoughts. My beliefs and thoughts still stand. I strongly believe in helping other players and not being a jerk. All one has to do is go into DF and do the final bits of the main story quest to run into your fair share of those. Impatient speed runners who have not the time nor inclination to wait for someone new to watch the CS's on their first time through. I am not being hypocritical whatsoever. I am standing firmly by my views, which is that it is wrong to enforce upon others that watching videos is a required thing before you can even go into matters and learn on your own. It's a train of thought that is wrong, and Kuwagami's own experiences as well as mine prove that to ring resoundingly true.

Videos, as I said, are not some magical panacea that will instantly make players better. Time, patience, the willingness to help others make it through content, even primals on extreme however, goes a heck of a lot farther in completing your goals. Experiencing something first hand always trumps seeing it on youtube. Always.


Sorry to see that you disagree with that. Regardless, I wish you well even though we disagree and likely will continue to do so. I ask only that you consider another's thoughts before deigning to think for them, which was my original issue. Assumption of how others handle things and their reasoning for doing such.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Well people do set aside time for the game.

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Good for them, they knew when they signed up that they would be playing with people who might have differening opinions than they do.

Do I watch fights beforehand and try to get the fight right the first time? I sure as hell do.

Do I expect everyone to do what I do? Nope, if I want people to know their stuff from the get-go I run with people I know. I can't expect a random guy to play the game the way I want him to play, he has every right to learn the fight whatever way he wants. Will said person be shunned from "Experienced playerz only guyz" Sure why not finding a group of like minded people is part of what the game having a community should be about.

I could go on about how XIV is very anti community and fights a uphill battle as long as they keep aspects of the game so heavy in certain areas, but let's just say this isn't a problem in many games because you actually had to find people to play with instead of being randomly slotted with others.

As soon as you press that duty finder button all bets are off, There is a good chance that at least one person in your group of randomly selected people will play differently than the rest. Good thing you can you know...talk to people. If there is one stuborn guy who rammed the duty finder button expecting people to crash and burn with him when nobody else wants to, vote him out because he is disrupting your play.

Find yourself in a group with more than one member of this mindset? Vote Abandon or deal with it.

You have the tools available to you to avoid "Unwanted nonsense" but people more often choose to try the path of least resistance (Duty Finder) against the method that works (Know the people you play with) and expect others to bend to their will.

On either side of the fence there needs to be common courtesy but shunning people because of their playstyle just isn't cool nor is it fair to anyone.

Some people enjoy the game being a unknown challenge, some just want to bring the game down to a sequence of macros and forward knowledge. Both can Co-Exist, hell both can play together if their willing to bend.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

Regardless and irrespective of your thoughts. My beliefs and thoughts still stand. I strongly believe in helping other players and not being a jerk. All one has to do is go into DF and do the final bits of the main story quest to run into your fair share of those. Impatient speed runners who have not the time nor inclination to wait for someone new to watch the CS's on their first time through. I am not being hypocritical whatsoever. I am standing firmly by my views, which is that it is wrong to enforce upon others that watching videos is a required thing before you can even go into matters

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You seem to be missing this point over and over again. I'll gladly spell it out for you a hundred times, though, just as I would gladly explain any strategy to a DF group over and over again before the time limit expires.

No one is forcibly DEMANDING people watch videos before they do something for the first time. Most of us are saying it is highly encouraged: benefiting yourself and your group.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

It's a train of thought that is wrong, and Kuwagami's own experiences as well as mine prove that to ring resoundingly true.

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So, "My experiences are the only ones valid. This other guy on the forums also validates my experiences."

No, sorry. This isn't how it works and this is the kind of attitude I was referring to. Since you have misinterpreted the main point many times over, it is safe to assume that you have no idea what 'train of thought' anyone recommending video advice is describing.

Really, though: you appear to be a bleeding heart, willing to help everyone and anyone. How many times have you actually run Titan HM in DF? I'm very curious. Do you think a 3/111 win to total runs done ratio is an acceptable figure? I got my first DF win on the 53rd try. Do you think that's a reasonable number of Titan runs to do until you can beat him?

Giving these statistics (that you seem to lack yourself), do you still think that these people would not have benefited from reading a strat. or watching a video before entering? It's really a rhetorical question because the obvious answer is yes: they would have benefited.

So then my question would be: "Why do you seek to dissuade people from being prepared for these encounters with such low success rates in your average DF run?"

Again, I don't need an answer. You would rather 1 or more of the 7 people suffer on their 54th attempt rather than realizing you were part of a community that depends on you, adapting better habits as a result.

You see: when I break down your character like this, you really don't strike me as the noble crusader you made yourself out to be. Your intentions may be good but, when it comes down to it, you appear to be a little inconsiderate.

I posed a question to my boyfriend, who doesn't play FF14, after explaining this situation we are discussing. He at first started to agree with you: saying that, "No, I wouldn't look at a strategy or video before doing content. That would be kind of boring." and then quickly realized, "Oh: I get it. The people that you are referring to think they are still playing a single player game." and quickly changed his mind.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

Videos, as I said, are not some magical panacea that will instantly make players better. Time, patience, the willingness to help others make it through content, even primals on extreme however, goes a heck of a lot farther in completing your goals. Experiencing something first hand always trumps seeing it on youtube. Always.

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I implore you to do some reading before hitting the post button in the future. I would very much appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

As many have pointed out: you won't have all the answers simply by watching a video. You WILL have a general idea, though. That is all most of us are asking for: not for you to be an expert the minute you step foot in an instance.

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I honestly find it very difficult to be down to earth and rational with people on this forum sometimes. It would be very easy for me to just retreat back into my FC where we do this content almost daily where the success rate is abysmal in DF. I wouldn't have to deal with the general population and, thus, would defeat the purpose of me playing a MMO: to interact with the online community.

If you wanted an elitist mindset: the reality is that, come 2.2, many of us in these FCs will be formulating strategies to the new fights that do not have any strategies for them currently out. We will probably hit a bump in the road but succeed in the end due to level of play and gear compared to the general population just like 2.1. You will, unwittingly, end up following these same strategies we had used whenever it is that you had gotten to the content. Some guy in your party will have done his homework and will gladly explain things to you because it makes him feel good since he knows something that others do not.

It's almost like I'm talking to the same people who would tell other players to disregard using food because it was a DF run in 2.0 (and even into 2.1). Almost like you wish to spread mediocrity instead of encouraging players to do all within their power to succeed. Who knows how big the stink would be if people requested that you bring medicinal supplies or other things with you as well.

Read this well. You see: I don't care whether people watch videos or not. I don't care whether people read strategies or not. I don't care if we wipe until the time limit is up nor do I care to think about people that might have inconvenienced me by not doing their homework. I just grin and carry. That's all you really can do.

The minute someone decides to encourage mediocrity, on the other hand, is when I start to care. Advising players to not use all the resources available to them is absolutely disturbing.. Whether players use those resources or not is up to them.

This entire time you've been reading my posts but have not understood what I have been saying. We are actually arguing about the same point: do not force your playstyle on another person. You are telling me not to force people to watch videos (to which I told you I do not) and I am telling you to please stop encouraging people to not use resources that are readily available to them (even if you choose to use them or not).

I've considered your thoughts. I don't ask that you consider mine.

I will continue to pop into PF groups seeking help or queuing for DF runs for things I don't need just because it's fun to interact with the rest of the community from time to time. Helping people is how I learned to play MMOs and not get bored while still earning a sense of satisfaction. You're free to continue to encourage players to play on sub-par levels as well, of course.

I believe actions speak louder than words. See you in DF.

Woooooooooooooooo! Good read Hitome, I wholeheartedly agree :)

I have a fc member tell a tank not to use food because he was just oting Garuda EX and I was like WHATTT!!?? Don't listen to him!! He was petty low on health a couple of times and the food might of saved him.

Pretty much that's what it is. Players act like it's a single player game and their experience and time is worth more than others.

Sociopaths: The Thread

Duty Finder-be unprepared, go in without knowing anything about the fights with minimal gear etc etc, learn the fight, have fun!
Party Finder-know the fight, know what it takes to win, don't join unless you can meet the criteria of the party leader (ilevel, exp, 2 fails=kick etc)

I have found this to be hands down the best way to clear endgame content. I never expect a clear in DF, but I DO expect one in a PF, unless one specifically states that its a training party. That's the awesome thing about PF, you can join like minded people who wont ragequit on the 2nd wipe, and actually care about progressing during the fight. I just don't see a problem with this current configuration. I learned Ultima HM from DF, and got the clear from PF. If people are accepting of this configuration, content will never be a problem!

Not everyone sees failure as suffering, or solving challenges without guides as encouraging mediocrity.

I beat Titan HM in DF. Titan killed me many times. I did not study the fight. I learned as I played and solved it. As I developed my solution, I checked guides for ideas. Every player should be encouraged to challenge the content fresh, only researching if they get stuck, frustrated, or want new ideas.

When I help people, I don't give tips unless people ask, and I encourage people to try a couple times cold. I don't play to teach farming. I provide an experienced player, not a carry.

Hitome, you realize that helping people is satisfying. However, you think helping means teaching strategies. I think helping means giving people a competent ally while they develop a solution. Solving the challenge is more fun than being told the answer.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Not everyone sees failure as suffering, or solving challenges without guides as encouraging mediocrity.

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This surprises me. Do you remember a certain thread about a week or two ago involving Titan Ex? Many people were quite upset with him. I could link you to about 5 threads regarding complaints about Titan HM as well. I would say these players do not enjoy death.

But I agree with your overall point: failure is not necessarily suffering. To me, failing a fight just means I need to do better next time. We are the minority in this regard. Been in DF lately? Two attempts is pretty much all it takes before you see a vote abandon pop up. :\ People have no will power and no patience.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Hitome, you realize that helping people is satisfying. However, you think helping means teaching strategies. I think helping means giving people a competent ally while they develop a solution. Solving the challenge is more fun than being told the answer.

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I agree. Which is why I posted this earlier in the thread:

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Except sat in DF HM Titan pre 2.1 for hours upon hours helping new players to the fight. I didn't care what kind of gear they had, what prior experience they had, or anything else. I had no expectations: it was Titan HM in a DF group. I did not attempt to teach the new players: just let them experience it for the first time. Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Yes, not everyone learns by videos. I assume many were able to get a little bit of experience in all of those fights even after dying so much. However, as you can see by the success rate, doing your research is probably a wise idea.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

My attitude in FF14: Why should I need to watch a video? Every encounter I've been involved with I've overcome. I've done it all and have cleared most content faster than ~97% of my server and ~95% of the general population.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

You can leave learning a fight to DF matches. If a PF group requests experienced players and a person knowingly joins without any experience, he/she deserves what they get.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

DF will always be extremes. You can hide behind anonymity and will never see most of the people there again.

Even with these hindrances, you can still learn quite a lot in DF.

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I honestly wish people would read what I write. I do not give advice unless asked. I was silent during most of the Titan HM runs unless I saw a place to make a comment that would improve group morale or offer up a new strategy.

I myself have told you I do not use strategies or videos on my first go around. Some of us do not need them. But, from my experience in DF, many could benefit from them.

Again, I ask: what endgame DF content have you all done and how many times? I am talking about HM primals and Ex primals. I'd venture a guess and say that this is not a popular activity for many people. Low tome reward, no gear incentives one you get what you want, etc. I've been there doing Ifrit/Garuda/Titan HM DF since September. The first time I did Titan DF for fun was in November.

On top of that, I was part of a LS that helped people through Titan HM for free on a regular basis.

My claims are not without merit. 111 runs alone on Titan is quite a large sample size. Now my next goal is to do Titan Ex in a DF (already knocked out the other two). I really wish some of you would give DF Titan a shot now and let me know how it works.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

People have no will power and no patience.

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You know its what "2 fail = kick" parties are all about as well?

Here's the irony here. Everyone wants to win, ya? Then why would you willingly participate in a party without being as prepared as possible? You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything about the job, and being prepared for the questions that could potentially be thrown at you.

I'm not saying walk into a boss fight like captain Einstein or something, but at least know the gist of the fight and be prepared enough that you can handle it. If you want tips, ask. Most people in the game are willing to give you a quick rundown.

People are going to bail, or boot you, for being unprepared and holding the group back. Rightfully so. If you lied, or haven't learned from your mistakes, you shouldn't won't likely ever win. That simple. And you won't...ever. Enjoy buying your run because you yourself haven't learned to contribute to the party by coming prepared.

Oh, and enjoy queuing over and over again for the same reason - your own stubborn selfishness and inability to learn a fight.

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

Here's the irony here. Everyone wants to win, ya? Then why would you willingly participate in a party without being as prepared as possible? You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything about the job, and being prepared for the questions that could potentially be thrown at you.

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1) Here's the Irony, looking at one video hardly make you prepared. To be prepared you need to experience the fight yourself, seeing a healer cast his cure in time wont give you the proper reflexes to cast cure at the exact good time.

2) To see a PLD take the aggro on Chirada/suparma in time & run to the right position wont magicaly give you the reflexes and the right enmity level to perform as well as in the video.

And to see a DD (BRD & BLM) fire their pew-pew wont make you a good pew-pewer, even less seeing a melee dodge, wont give you the reflexes to dodge when necessary. Do you see the Irony? thats the 1st reason why this argument is sterile.

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

I'm not saying walk into a boss fight like captain Einstein or something, but at least know the gist of the fight and be prepared enough that you can handle it. If you want tips, ask. Most people in the game are willing to give you a quick rundown.

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Ok, what will it change if I spent one day/week watching a video from an experienced group? I am doing it (personaly) but I will hardly call that experience because I did not experience it myself, theory & practice are 2 different things. Ok I will know the paterns of the fight its positive and it will contribute for sure, will I know when Garuda will decide to wheel my face? no I wont, it could kill me & get me booted. I have been watching a video for 1 week & got killed because of one silly thing I couldn't dodge in time.. I don't understand... I studyed it like a good boy. You see the Irony here again? 2nd reason why the argument is sterile.

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

People are going to bail, or boot you, for being unprepared and holding the group back. Rightfully so. If you lied, or haven't learned from your mistakes, you shouldn't won't likely ever win. That simple. And you won't...ever. Enjoy buying your run because you yourself haven't learned to contribute to the party by coming prepared.

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3)But wait! I spent the week watching Garuda's Vid 8h/day :( ! I know what I am doing ; ; !!! Please refer to 1)

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

Oh, and enjoy queuing over and over again for the same reason - your own stubborn selfishness and inability to learn a fight.

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I like how high & mighty you talk here, like if it was incredibly exceptional to be able to learn a patern, you guys must be gifted, I mean for real! The whole "You should watch a vid" argument should really end there, because this game isn't about skill at all.. FFXI was, XIV is all based on reflexes and memory, those are 2 very different things.

To be a good driver you need to practice, the code is only to ensure you will respect the law on the road.
To be a good player you need to practice, the vid is only here to ensure you know how it will be on the fight.
For the job interview you need to revise many point, knowing everything about the job will make you aware but wont make you good at it.

Flash news! Irony & fact all in one! The code doesn't make you a good driver, The vid doesn't make you a good player, the study of a job doesn't make you good at it!

All of that just to confirm, experience > all. Not alot of people have the courage to make a "training party" because they know that 2 persons out of 8 might not stay long enough & or will want to bail due to impatience or the "sorry my FC need me" excuse.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

As many have pointed out: you won't have all the answers simply by watching a video. You WILL have a general idea, though. That is all most of us are asking for: not for you to be an expert the minute you step foot in an instance.

I do not want to spend another 111 attempts doing DF Titan HM only to succeed 3 times. I do not want OTHER players to experience that as well.

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The problem is, and this is important: you cannot control DF. No matter how many times you try and post on the forums or yell and scream it would make things easier. Therefore you shouldn't try, instead you should encourage people you do know to NOT df content if they are new. But practice with FC people or use PF.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

I just have to wonder (because I haven't bothered to look any of you up): how many of you have actually done this content where videos would have helped you ahead of time? I keep getting the impression that the people responding with, "No! We shouldn't have to watch a video to win!" are players that consider things like DF WP and AK as the end.

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In my experience, most of the people with attitudes like me do in fact do the hard content. People who stop at the early 50 dungeons usually don't play much, or only craft. So they are unlikely to even be involved in a discussion like this.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Curious as to what you do (if you have) on things like Titan/Ifrit and Twin. Did you think any of the strategies you used were not generated by people who did it prior? That they weren't the strategies we used when we did the extremes first day of the patch? That everyone follows now because it makes sense to do it that way?

So basically what you want to do is go try one of these extreme/coil fights just so you can follow a strategy that was taken from a video whether you are aware of it or not? I see. This makes no sense whatsoever.
...
You are actually following a strategy from a video whether you know it or not but somehow it's not an intelligent thing to do, in your head, to watch the video ahead of time.

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You seem to miss the fact I don't care if other people beat the content first. Fundamental difference. We do not think the same. You are trying to project your opinion and play style on others, that do not share that opinion.

For me the fun is challenging myself and determining if I can come up with a strategy to solve content, not to find a strategy online and follow it. You have a very different perspective. That is fine. I really don't care.

Why does it matter if a strategy already exists, even the same one I come up with? That is irrelevant to if I personally (and obviously in conjunction with a group of like minded individuals) can come with said strategy, rather than merely follow it.

I also enjoy going in after I have found strategies that work, and continue to try different things. By your logic, why would I? I already know how to beat the content with one strategy. What value in intentionally throwing out the method used to win, and trying to come up with a different one? Clearly I don't think that way, and nor do those I typically play with. For us it is about the challenge not simply the solution.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

That's nice. If you had read the argument, you'd realize DF is actually an amalgamation of people with different skill levels. In certain encounters, DF rarely succeeds. In order to increase success rate, there isn't much you can do besides coming prepared.

You might be happy with not defeating something on your first try. How about the other person in the party who is there for the 53rd time and is relying on you to perform well?

You say you won't impose yourself upon people like this but if you ever decide to join a DF extreme primal, this is what you will be doing.

The problem is you can't control the entire situation but you can increase success rate which you seem to refuse to want to do.

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I am stating that you cannot control who is in DF. You cannot. No matter how often you encourage people to watch a video and read a guide first, including on the forums. You cannot control whether they actually do. So if this is something that frustrates you, then avoid DF. You cannot control what other people do, only what you yourself do. The developers have also stated that kicking people for being bad is an abuse of the system, so that shouldn't be on the table either. Therefore if you are going to use DF, be okay with the possibility of non-stop failure and rare success, or don't do it. I am not encouraging people to go in blind to DF, nor am I encouraging people to watch videos before hand. Rather, I am encouraging people who go into DF to expect other people who are at different levels of preparedness and experience and deal with it.

As for me, I don't DF anything new anymore, why would I? I have an FC and we also now have PF to form groups with even more like minded people.

When this discussion has come up with new 50's in FC, I tell them that they do not need to watch videos or research the hard content, but that if they don't it may take a longer before they are able to beat (or reliably beat) content, so they should play whichever way fits them best. I do discourage them using DF if they have a problem with failing repeatedly, because it is going to frustrate them. I will never say people should conform to either mindset. Instead they should do whatever fits them best, and just group accordingly.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Not everyone sees failure as suffering, or solving challenges without guides as encouraging mediocrity.

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Me neither failure makes me want to succeed even more. What I hate is when you know there's no chance of winning because others can't dodge or whatever while you play perfectly over and over again.

Claiming watching videos doesnt help while saying you're repeatedly wiping to the same mechanic over and over again even after doing it tons of times... that doesn't show videos arent helpful, it just shows you're bad.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

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The only conclusion I drew from your long post is that you won 3 out of 108 fights. You were in all of those 105 losses, and you blame everybody except yourself. Usual MMO game attitude: feeling a special snowflake surrounded by "bads". :P

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Many of your reactions to doing research on a fight beforehand speak about your actions in the real world. Are you also an irresponsible student who does not read the chapter(s) before going to class to discuss them? Are you an irresponsible adult who doesn't do any research on a company before an interview with that company? My guess would be yes.

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Strange, in my (and many other people's) experience people who obsess over a game and dedicate lots of time to it tend not to be the ones who do best at school or at work. Speaking of interviews, I don't advise anybody to try: "I research boss fights really well." Most examiners will be unimpressed. :P

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

Here's the irony here. Everyone wants to win, ya? Then why would you willingly participate in a party without being as prepared as possible? You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything about the job, and being prepared for the questions that could potentially be thrown at you.

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Looks like I need to home in on the key point here.....

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything about the job, and being prepared for the questions that could potentially be thrown at you.

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Not yet...

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything.

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Getting closer...

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

You don't show up to a job.

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Were playing a game right not a...

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Originally Posted by SeleneSinclair

job

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This is a game, not a job. Some people would rather experience it fresh.

Right. A game, not a job. Taking the game a bit less seriously would do a lot of good to the community. Being a little HUMBLER would do a lot of good too. If I were impressed by people posing as Einstein, I'd go to a physics forum. :)

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Originally Posted by Jynx

This is a game, not a job. Some people would rather experience it fresh.

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Farming, gathering, and crafting feels like a job. Making gil feels like blue collar work since you got out into the hot summer fields or the cold winter snow and hit X, X , X , X , X , X , X /repeat. Training newbies over and over again feels jobish as well. I guess you gotta do some work even if it's a video game to have some fun?

Too many people take this so seriously, seeming to me to feel more then just a tad bit of anger that someone hasn't watched videos and comes into a fight unaware of what is happening or what will happen. I say unaware because unprepared I feel is an ill fitting word for this debate. You are never truly prepared for what will come. Only experience and time grants you that little bonus. But as to people's feelings, yeah...more then just a little vitriol. Back before the patch when repair costs were astronomical, I could kind of understand. Now? Not so much.

As many have stated. This is a game. Something of enjoyment and pleasure. While there can be the counter argument of "I need my enjoyment too! So why aren't you watching videos to contribute to my own success and that of the group!? ", I feel it is a bit of a selfish avenue to take. Yes, everyone has their own reasons for doing as they will. Some players like to go into dungeons by fly by the seat of their pants methods, and generally I feel Duty Finder is fine for this. But honestly a lot of this thread is not coming off as common courtesy. Rather, it's coming off as people expecting others to do as they wish. Not an overly healthy attitude to take IMO. But that's just me.

If folks are really hung up on requirements and enforcing any of their wishes, Party Finder is there to fulfill your every need. In that setup, it's understandable to impose your own rules. Especially if you are creating the party.

Oh, and Hitome. I did read over your stuff, but the basic matter is, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't let it bother you as it seems it has. There are far more important things in life to get worked up over compared to a disagreement with some random person on the internet. *Shrugs* Don't let it bother you.

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

The only conclusion I drew from your long post is that you won 3 out of 108 fights. You were in all of those 105 losses, and you blame everybody except yourself. Usual MMO game attitude: feeling a special snowflake surrounded by "bads". :P

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The thing with the Titan fights, it could very well be true. I rarely get hit by any avoidable mechanic in the Titan fights. And in DF, even PF, I see people get hit all the time. I won't claim to be perfect, no one is. But when you clearly are the only one getting hit less than once per 20 attempts or more, then he has the right conclusion. The "you were part of all those losses too" only works if the person is genuinely the cause of the failures. And some people aren't.

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Originally Posted by ispano

The thing with the Titan fights, it could very well be true.

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Yeah it's very believable because of how bad players are in df. Titan is unforgiving and you are required to have 7 players play perfectly. Took me weeks of dfing and never got a single win until I rigged the odds by queueing in with my people.

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Originally Posted by Doo

I guess you gotta do some work even if it's a video game to have some fun?

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If your not enjoying the "Work" your putting into the game then your "Enjoying" it wrong.

Don't like training new players? Play with experienced played.
Don't like farming materials (I find it rather satisfying to farm and craft my own items, "Fun" even) Don't do it, people buy things for a reason, because they don't want to make it themselves.

You can "Make gil" doing the things you find "Fun" Dungeons, Fates, Leves. Any content that doesn't generate or have a way to generate gil often pays out in dividens that makes you not need to spend gil to keep playing (Myth tomes and Allagan gear drops). You could call playing any part of the game "Work" if you wanted to break it down to hillariously nonsensicle simple tasks as you did.

"Guess I gotta "Work" if I want to beat Titan EX, I press my combo rotation and make sure I don't stand in them red cirlces or get pushed off the cliff, when I'm done I punch my timecard and call it a day and go have some fun by going to work in real life!"

Why is this ever still a topic? If you're with randoms, expect nothing and teach whatever needs to be taught. If you want experienced groups, create one or join one with the expectations of your liking.

It doesn't take a debate, and this is coming from someone who mostly one shots T5 weekly.

I'm just gonna be here for the second time :P

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Originally Posted by Tazo

Yes, the people in your group most likely watched videos or read a general guide on the mechanics of the fight. Would you except their advise on how best to do the fight? If yes, then why not be prepared and do the research yourself? They are basically regurgitating what is already available to you. If you don't want to know anything about the fight, and want to wing it, why should they sit there and wait for you? If you want to do a endgame raid with other individuals that don't want to do any research, then make a PF group yourself.

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People can give me all the advice in the world it goes in one ear and out the other!. With these fights you NEVER learn until you experience if for yourself that's a FACT!. I could tell you all the Titan Ex mechanics before the fight are you going to remember them all?. I'll answer that for you NO!. You do not learn until you experience it for yourself!.

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Originally Posted by Bloopan

[2]You are now eligible for it but that doesnt mean you are "good to go"

Your gears play a crucial part in terms of clearing a run so if you think/know that your barely getting that requirement, use your time more wisely by running more appropriate dungeons so you'll be more prepared for the higher ones.

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If it has a set item level to get in you don't need better gear then that. Faceroll =/= Geared. HAving better gear will make it EASIER yes, but it's not REQUIRED

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

Missing the point

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K we'll just agree to disagree. You go forth and spread mediocrity while being unable to help players in DF on your PLD who doesn't meet the minimum requirements and I'll continue to exercise patience in DF. You know...like I've been doing all along.

One last time: no one is seeking to enforce their playstyle on other people. We are only making a recommendation in the interest of courtesy to our fellow players. You know what a recommendation is, yes? Advice: not a demand.

The disconnect is quite simple: you think I am frustrated with people not watching videos. If this were the case, do my actions tell you this is the truth? Would someone who is frustrated with people who do not come prepared continue to do DF? No, of course not. I approach DF just like many of you do: no expectations.

The problem is you do not understand that you are giving some dangerous advice to other players who might benefit otherwise. Not something you'd expect to see on a board that is designed to help players achieve their goals and alleviate their frustrations, you know?

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

Oh, and Hitome. I did read over your stuff, but the basic matter is, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't let it bother you as it seems it has. There are far more important things in life to get worked up over compared to a disagreement with some random person on the internet. *Shrugs* Don't let it bother you.

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I thought we were having a debate? Why do you think it would bother me? If I spent so much time in DF Titan HM and am not frustrated by it yet, what makes you think your posts would frustrate me?

As I said: my voice on the forum is vocal and the one in game is silent. I do not ask people, when I join a DF group, to go watch a video. I watch what they do and just make observations. I have a large sample size but you haven't seen what I have, unfortunately, so there is no way to relate these experiences to you. You will just have to give it a shot on PLD and report back with findings.

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

The only conclusion I drew from your long post is that you won 3 out of 108 fights. You were in all of those 105 losses, and you blame everybody except yourself. Usual MMO game attitude: feeling a special snowflake surrounded by "bads". :P

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This is a retort I've seen used frequently over the past few years: often said by those who have nothing else to contribute.

Simple reading comprehension would allow you to see this isn't the case. If I've stated that I've actively been a part of a LS that helped people on my server in droves through Titan HM, this kind of suggests that I know what I'm doing in regards to Titan DF. If all my 50s have relics, this also might hint at this. Furthermore, if I seem to have no problem clearing Titan Ex, there would be a high probability that Titan HM is not an issue for me.

I mess up rarely on Titan HM. I've been in several DF situations where I've solo healed the last phase on SCH and received compliments afterwards. It's really not a hard fight once you've done it so much that you know the pattern by heart, you know?

But sure enough: the one lecturing me, yet again, seems to lack the gear/experience/skill to back up their retort. "LOL you must suck if you wipe 108 times on Titan."...yet, may I point out that, my alt MNK actually has better gear than your main with further progression?

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/6324284/

So might I ask: what problems do you have with the extreme primals, exactly? I would venture a guess that lack of invigorate may be a big reason. You don't seem to have coil experience. I highly recommend taking a look at our Twin video to help you formulate a strategy when you eventually get there! I know you can do it.

If we're going to compare sizes, it helps to have a starting point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

Strange, in my (and many other people's) experience people who obsess over a game and dedicate lots of time to it tend not to be the ones who do best at school or at work. Speaking of interviews, I don't advise anybody to try: "I research boss fights really well." Most examiners will be unimpressed. :P

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It's just amusing, in general, that you would assume this to be the case about someone's personal life outside of a game just because of the amount of time they put into it. I personally would correlate strong dedication demonstrated from playing a game and strong dedication to things outside of the game.

http://i.imgur.com/TL02Jdi.png

I'm afraid I can't divulge anymore personal information to you. Suffice it to say, your (and the many other peoples') experiences might be just a little off.

Don't worry: I'm sure you can come up with a witty retort the next time you post. ;)

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

When this discussion has come up with new 50's in FC, I tell them that they do not need to watch videos or research the hard content, but that if they don't it may take a longer before they are able to beat (or reliably beat) content, so they should play whichever way fits them best. I do discourage them using DF if they have a problem with failing repeatedly, because it is going to frustrate them. I will never say people should conform to either mindset. Instead they should do whatever fits them best, and just group accordingly.

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Then we pretty much agree. All I've been saying all along is bolded.

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Originally Posted by Lego3400

If it has a set item level to get in you don't need better gear then that. Faceroll =/= Geared. HAving better gear will make it EASIER yes, but it's not REQUIRED

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to the defense of this argument, titan's heart or ifrit's nails can be a little tricky with the basic il requirement if handled wrong :p

But yeah in perfect situtaion (and good il average, not only accessories over crappy main gear) it should work

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lego3400

If it has a set item level to get in you don't need better gear then that. Faceroll =/= Geared. HAving better gear will make it EASIER yes, but it's not REQUIRED

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Exactly! If you have the skill to compensate the lack of gear.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

If your not enjoying the "Work" your putting into the game then your "Enjoying" it wrong.

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Yeah all those gil buyers probably feel this way so they use real money to buy fake money instead. RMT is big business. So many players enjoying this game wrong. I guess you can find ways around the not enjoying part such as sniping in progress dungeon to reduce the repetitiveness of farming :)