Turn 5 Twister Strategies Compendium

I saw it too. It's not even a complete circle (because you'd just run back into the twister!)

It's more like a hook. Like a spiral. They always run clockwise. :3

I guess SE's idea behind it is to go against the rotation of the twister, thus slowing it rotation speed and not allow it to lift you up..

but really, that's just so awfully gimmicky

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I guess SE's idea behind it is to go against the rotation of the twister, thus slowing it rotation speed and not allow it to lift you up..

but really, that's just so awfully gimmicky

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What's wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by NarwhalShadowsun

What's wrong with that?

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It's gimmicky because he didn't think of it

I guess so..

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Originally Posted by NarwhalShadowsun

What's wrong with that?

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Game mechanics are supposed to be... how do I phrase it.They are not supposed to be perfectly obvious, but they should also not go against mechanics you already learned before. There is a video that goes over the other extremes in gameplay design here, namely making things too obvious aka spoonfeeding. But it also mentions things like mechanics being inconsistent being a no-no.

For example: If you always had to dodge out of AoE range, it does make no sense to suddenly having to perform anything special except for get out of it's range! Why do I have to suddenly have to... spin around the AoE or similar? They could just as well have suddenly required you to jump out of AoE. A similar mechanic wasn't introduced anywhere before, and by introduced, I mean a way to properly convey the player "you have to do this or you will die" without implicitly spelling that out.

They did it quite nicely with the "don't let the tonberry stalker catch up with you" by first showing you how it kills the treasure hunters (and then repeating it for the dumb with the onscreen message). The also did the same with AoE, by displaying a red marker, the color red being a warning psychologically, telling you to GTFO out of it.

With Twisters however, you don't have a mark targeting you or your teammates, no AoE marker, no damage display, you just... die. No hints on how to avoid it. This is gimmicky, bad design in my book.

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Originally Posted by Senzura

It's gimmicky because he didn't think of it

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Very funny. Did you?

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

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But you illustrate the EXACT issue with game mechanics these days. The "heads up" display, i.e. "Don't let the stalker get you" and big red circles, you get these days is exactly why games and communities are being dumb down. We should NEVER be fed these mechanics unless it has something to do with story progression of some type.

If people actually figured out how to avoid it then it means there was a subtle hint in game that provided them with an idea. Its just a matter of how obvious it was. Its more likely things hiding in plain sight that people decided to ignore.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

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There were actually very subtle notions that helped reinforce (and when I say reinforce I don't mean that these little "hints" formed our strategy. I just mean they bolstered our thought process behind how SE designed such a mechanic) our strategy behind how we do twisters. They are very subtle but when you think about them all together, we can see where SE was going with the design. Due to their nature, Twisters have very tight movement requirements and the 85-90% dodge rate we have is only because we are not meeting those requirements. We can play better to reach 100% dodge rate - hands down. The only RNG involved is what 4 players they will target each rotation.

What you all "see" in the video will not make you accurately understand the methodology about why we are going in circles. We will be doing a framework write up of the fight in the next week or two that goes over in-depth specifics. Please look forward to it!

As someone else mentioned, my guess is that the Twister spawns on a tangent of your current running direction - in the video I noticed that Twisters do now spawn on the position you are when Twintania starts castin them, but they do not spawn at the position you are when the cast is finished, either.

So, I guess that they spawn shortly AFTER your last change of direction - meaning that running in circles is the best way to avoid getting hit...probably, missing the Twister's hitbox by just a few pixels.

Concerning the hints....hmm.

Well, Part 3 IS some kind of circular shaft, AND we have all those "Clockwork" enemies...

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

*CENSORED*

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Damn you guys, you're teasing my interest so much :(

I love this "hints" thing - if indeed there are, I think it's a brilliant move and you were awesome to discover them.

But at any rate, the "Clockwork" enemy type looks too peculiar to be unrelated, IMHO.

EDIT: Other things that come to mind is the fact that you move clockwise to avoid the tornadoes in Garuda, as well.
Seems to me that Twintania uses fireballs (Ifrit, you need to run to avoid them), twisters (Garuda, you move clockwise), and body slams of sorts (Titan).

Meh..maybe I'm just thinking too much about it :P

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Meh..maybe I'm just thinking too much about it :P

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thinking waaaaaaaaaay too much about it lol

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Originally Posted by Raiz_Cineris

But you illustrate the EXACT issue with game mechanics these days. The "heads up" display, i.e. "Don't let the stalker get you" and big red circles, you get these days is exactly why games and communities are being dumb down. We should NEVER be fed these mechanics unless it has something to do with story progression of some type.

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I guess I didn't bring the point over clear enough. There is a difference between "in your face" hints of the likes "don't let him get you" and showing you an example/hint of what you have to do. They could have did it differently, namely by just letting the stalker catch up to you and stab you - you have a hint (treasure hunters dying) and punishment for not following the hint (you getting stabbed)

With AoE the hint isn't that subtle, yes. In 1.0, we used to have to watch the monster for hints, their pose switched depending on what they were going to do. For example watching Ifrit's leg positioning to anticipate eruption - which gave a visual hint by itself.

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If people actually figured out how to avoid it then it means there was a subtle hint in game that provided them with an idea. Its just a matter of how obvious it was. Its more likely things hiding in plain sight that people decided to ignore.

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With twisters, you do get a visual mark, the small vortex appearing under you just before it blows you up - the problem is that it looks similar to, say, eruption's visual hint which tells you to go away - if you do that with twisters though, you blow up - inconsistent input to the user from the game that video I linked touches on as well.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

The only RNG involved is what 4 players they will target each rotation.

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I'm not really complaining about RNG, only about the seeming obscurity of the mechanic that is inconsistent with what the player learned so far.

My problem with "difficulty by obscurity" is that an encounter designed like that becomes much easier, sometimes trivial, once you figure out all mechanics, rather than to rely on actual player skill. This is not to say this particular encounter is easy, or that people will be winning against Twintania with ease now, but we just went from "unbeatable" (=difficulty level infinity) to "beatable with enough effort". That's already a significant drop in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

just went from "unbeatable" (=difficulty level infinity) to "beatable with enough effort". That's already a significant drop in my eyes.

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..which is what happens when progressing, really. Everything that's not "unbeatable" can be "beatable with enough effort" once you figure out what to do.
You would have preferred to let her keep the status of "unbeatable", instead?

It was bound to be killed, sooner or later. And this is way better than discovering it was bugged for a LONG time and that people wasted time and effort banging their heads against a bugged fight.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

..which is what happens when progressing, really. Everything that's not "unbeatable" can be "beatable with enough effort" once you figure out what to do.
You would have preferred to let her keep the status of "unbeatable", instead?

It was bound to be killed, sooner or later. And this is way better than discovering it was bugged for a LONG time and that people wasted time and effort banging their heads against a bugged fight.

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This is really not the problem I am describing. There is no progression involved in solving an obscure mechanic for you as a player. You are not getting better with your class. Your skill is irrelevant while you are beating against the obscurity wall with random tries to figure out what to do, or trying to find hints you might have missed.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

There is no wall. Just a fight that requires proper execution and excellent play to overcome.

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That is only true if you figured out the mechanics of the twister only, though.

edit: your double post just switched the order of the posts @_@

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

My problem with "difficulty by obscurity" is that an encounter designed like that becomes much easier, sometimes trivial, once you figure out all mechanics, rather than to rely on actual player skill. This is not to say this particular encounter is easy, or that people will be winning against Twintania with ease now, but we just went from "unbeatable" (=difficulty level infinity) to "beatable with enough effort". That's already a significant drop in my eyes.

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It was never "unbeatable". Hasn't been beaten yet =/= unbeatable. Let the crying masses get into your head and you start to believe the hype. We always knew it was beatable with proper execution. As to it being "beatable with enough effort", we didn't throw ourselves at a wall until it fell over. There is no wall. Just a fight that requires proper execution and excellent play to overcome.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

This is really not the problem I am describing. There is no progression involved in solving an obscure mechanic for you as a player. You are not getting better with your class. Your skill is irrelevant while you are beating against the obscurity wall with random tries to figure out what to do, or trying to find hints you might have missed.

That is only true if you figured out the mechanics of the twister only, though.

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And why do you believe that "progressing" necessarily means "getting better with your class"?
You can get better in other ways as well - this is probably one of these cases (even if excellent execution is still a very important factor)

In this case, we have a group of people who managed to do something that no one else did before; they "progressed" in the game, no questions.

The fact that they needed to use their heads and "think outside of the box" to try and figure out what the "secret" was is not something bad per se, it's a novelty (not really, The Secret World already does this) and definitely interesting, at least for me and probably for others as well.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

And why do you believe that "progressing" necessarily means "getting better with your class"?

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Because in my opinion, that's what progressing in the game means - clearing content by executing your role more or less flawlessly. I'm not forcing everyone to accept that stance, that's just my personal opinion.

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You can get better in other ways as well - this is probably one of these cases (even if excellent execution is still a very important factor)[...]
The fact that they needed to use their heads and "think outside of the box" to try and figure out what the "secret" was is not something bad per se, it's a novelty (not really, The Secret World already does this) and definitely interesting, at least for me and probably for others as well.

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I don't see it as something bad, but as I said, for me, the mechanics of twisters go against already established rules. Whether it's because I don't see the hints or another reason, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Because in my opinion, that's what progressing in the game means - clearing content by executing your role more or less flawlessly. I'm not forcing everyone to accept that stance, that's just my personal opinion.

I don't see it as something bad, but as I said, for me, the mechanics of twisters go against already established rules. Whether it's because I don't see the hints or another reason, I don't know.

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Well, as they said themselves, this fight requires pretty much a perfect execution - so it's still not an easy fight even after you figure out how to deal with Twister.

And the fact that Twisters go against established rules (we will have to wait for their explanation to say this, honestly) might be exactly the point.

It's hard for a reason, and "expecting players to think outside of the box" is definitly something that makes a fight hard :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDi2NlsA4nI

I think this is relevant to the discussion

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Well, as they said themselves, this fight requires pretty much a perfect execution - so it's still not an easy fight even after you figure out how to deal with Twister.

And the fact that Twisters go against established rules (we will have to wait for their explanation to say this, honestly) might be exactly the point.

It's hard for a reason, and "expecting players to think outside of the box" is definitly something that makes a fight hard :P

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I didn't claim the fight is easy now :P
I will let myself be surprised by that explanation of how it works, maybe it ends up being totally clear and not in conflict with any rules as I currently feel it is.

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Originally Posted by Anjexu

Yo I just gotta say, this Soukyuu guy is super butthurt.

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And I would be that because of what reason, again?

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Originally Posted by Senzura

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDi2NlsA4nI

I think this is relevant to the discussion

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"What they didn't know is that the food was distributed at random and had nothing to do with their actions". <- lol
I don't think it's random in this case though.

Does it look hard to me? Perfect execution... yeah of pressing the D and W keys. What makes me like twisters is that they needed to be figured out, it wasn't obvious. But then once you figure it out it's perfectly doable.

To dodge the twister...

There are the theories in which running in a straight line is just a red herring because it doesn't always work. The tornado either appears right behind you or seemingly right on top of you. Positional updates are suggested to be a cause, but has this been considered?

What if the "right on top of you" twisters aren't because of a botched positional update, but because you ran *into* the twister instead of away? It may be possible that the mechanic is that one of two things will occur with twister:

1. The twister is dropped where you were when the cast finished.
2. The twister is dropped where the game *thinks* you're going to be after the cast is finished. Therefore, a straight line run kills you.

In my case, a "straight line run" is any run in which direction is constant or any change in direction is constant. A literal straight line, a slightly curved line, or running in circles all fall under this definition. Given the possibility that the game could be dropping a twister where it thinks you're going to be next, a possible way to ensure 100% dodge is to find the right moment to completely change directions. This way, the twister is dropped as if you would normally be on top of it at the time, but your direction switch tricked the AI.

An example of this can be found in, say, vertical shooters. Some enemies read your ship's speed and fire a bullet to your left such that you will be hit by it if you keep moving left. Stopping movement before it passes or just switching directions will allow you to dodge it. Now, it might not be so simple with twisters because, if it is indeed reading movement in this manner, it does not always do so.

As a disclaimer, this is just food for thought. I have not fought Twintania or even entered Coil, so anything I say can be taken with a grain of salt. However, this is one suggestion I think I haven't seen... and an idea's an idea, right?

I am pretty excited to see the explanation - even seeing it and having some thoughts on how the conclusion could be made, it still makes it hard to throw away certain bias in my head after seeing so many false positives on the mechanic. It goes all the way back to first trying the fight and just sprinting forward immediately at cast start, and just sometimes surviving - no direction changes or anything. I'll be curious to see if the explanation lines up with why this might work. I'm okay with mechanics that might seem a little obscure, I just want to know clearly when a proposed solution is wrong.

Also, despite making a thread that set me up to look like the stupidest person on the internet - NO REGRETS. Because Dofty's thread is the greatest thing ever, and I have no shame over the amazingly awkward giggle-fits I had to myself over it in the otherwise sinking silence of my apartment.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Because in my opinion, that's what progressing in the game means - clearing content by executing your role more or less flawlessly. I'm not forcing everyone to accept that stance, that's just my personal opinion.

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I've never really understood this sentiment (not just from you; I've seen it from others as well). Isn't dodging mechanics part of everyone's role in an encounter? Thus, learning mechanics would be part of executing one's role.

The only PROVED unbeatable thing in ARR is BG FC...

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I've never really understood this sentiment (not just from you; I've seen it from others as well). Isn't dodging mechanics part of everyone's role in an encounter? Thus, learning mechanics would be part of executing one's role.

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It might be a too vague distinction, but it is separate for me. Figuring out mechanics doesn't make you better with a specific class - because the mechanics don't vary per class, only the actions you take. my only problem with mechanics would be them being obscure for the reason of obscurity.

But I think that (off)topic has been discussed enough in this thread already, so that's all I'm going to say about it here.

Considering a boss like Twintania and Twister people are startled that moving in a rotation will get get you safely out of the cast?

While not 100% proven gimick, people are saying "unfair we get no hints"...please... what with that arguement? are you serious?

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Originally Posted by Guevara

The only PROVED unbeatable thing in ARR is BG FC...

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I love you.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Considering a boss like Twintania and Twister people are startled that moving in a rotation will get get you safely out of the cast?

While not 100% proven gimick, people are saying "unfair we get no hints"...please... what with that arguement? are you serious?

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I don't think people are claiming that it's unfair, the people that are saying that they don't like this type of mechanic (i.e. no hints that are like twister in particular) is because once you figure it out, it may be easy mode.

I'm guessing what these people want is knowing the mechanic of the fight, doing what they're supposed to do, but still prove to be a challenging mechanic. they don't want the hard part to be 'figuring it out'.

I have no stance on this yet, but I can see the sentiments.

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Originally Posted by glim

I don't think people are claiming that it's unfair, the people that are saying that they don't like this type of mechanic (i.e. no hints that are like twister in particular) is because once you figure it out, it may be easy mode. .

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Oh believe me there are people who can't walk in a straight line much less run around in a precise circle.

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Originally Posted by glim

I don't think people are claiming that it's unfair, the people that are saying that they don't like this type of mechanic (i.e. no hints that are like twister in particular) is because once you figure it out, it may be easy mode.

I'm guessing what these people want is knowing the mechanic of the fight, doing what they're supposed to do, but still prove to be a challenging mechanic. they don't want the hard part to be 'figuring it out'.

I have no stance on this yet, but I can see the sentiments.

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It's the current endgame "secret" last boss. 9 times out of 10 its a joke character. It's no surprises there's a gimick that based on word play. Any RPGer will get it.

While balance of effective use of it is can be argued in the end people are just mad they didn't figure it out first.

And it does not make the fight any easier, even BG who probably figure it out a long time ago, is still 75%-95% of total dodge rate and "I think this is how it works" level.

When every coil runner beats turn5, then you can have this drama.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Oh believe me there are people who can't walk in a straight line much less run around in a precise circle.

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it's not a precise circle btw, the hard part with the twister trick is doing it as soon as you see twintania casting twister. which brings up another issue, latency.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

It's the current endgame "secret" last boss. 9 times out of 10 its a joke character. It's no surprises there's a gimick that based on word play. Any RPGer will get it.

While balance of effective use of it is can be argued in the end people are just mad they didn't figure it out first.

And it does not make the fight any easier, even BG who probably figure it out a long time ago, is still 75%-95% of total dodge rate and "I think this is how it works" level.

When every coil runner beats turn5, then you can have this drama.

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that could be true, like I said I still have no stance on it yet (until I finally kill twin)

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Considering a boss like Twintania and Twister people are startled that moving in a rotation will get get you safely out of the cast?

While not 100% proven gimick, people are saying "unfair we get no hints"...please... what with that arguement? are you serious?

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Considering only one person in the whole community considered that "Dalamud" might be a corruption of "Bahamut" before it opened (and they were ignored), I'd say that such hints were readily obvious in hindsight, but the leap to fathom such hints in advance is much harder. After all, it seems no-one else managed to use that 'hint' to guess the mechanic.

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Originally Posted by glim

I don't think people are claiming that it's unfair, the people that are saying that they don't like this type of mechanic (i.e. no hints that are like twister in particular) is because once you figure it out, it may be easy mode.

I'm guessing what these people want is knowing the mechanic of the fight, doing what they're supposed to do, but still prove to be a challenging mechanic. they don't want the hard part to be 'figuring it out'.

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That's pretty much what I was trying (and apparently failing) to say :P

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Considering only one person in the whole community considered that "Dalamud" might be a corruption of "Bahamut" before it opened (and they were ignored), I'd say that such hints were readily obvious in hindsight, but the leap to fathom such hints in advance is much harder. After all, it seems no-one else managed to use that 'hint' to guess the mechanic.

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That's a loser's argument. If this was in the main game, yes, it would be unfair, but this is a category "secret post game boss". You are entitled to nothing, but to pit against sly developers.

Maybe the age of RPG is gone, and people expect to be spoon fed missing links, but any RPGer will get the crude but effective developer's joke.

Instead of saying "Haha you got us developers", it is "Why didn't you tell us better!" That is downright sad.

Joke bosses are an old an proud tradition in RPG world, that's why BG gets credit where credit is due. They actually did a leap of faith to pierce through the developer joke.

I'm not crude enough to invoke the "W" mmo where people expect normality, but they went "traditional" and this is the very essence of "traditional" "secret boss" routine. Now eat the up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right flabbergasted moment.

This may just be speaking for myself, but I think the largest issue for a lot of people is the number of false-positives (surviving when I 'should not' as per what people are claiming the solution is) - not whether we think the mechanic is obscure or hidden (well hidden or cleverly hidden aside). People continue to talk about the circle, yet for whatever reason I can just take a couple steps left at the end of the cast and survive fine a large portion of the time. Moving different directions just seems to wig out the method it's using to try and guess where it is. Similarly, as much as the circle works, so does just doing A-->W-->A-->W-->A-->W to go forward/strafe left/forward/strafe left etc.

Ultimately I'm withholding judgment on the matter until there's a clear distinction between the mechanic and what is the solution to living.

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Originally Posted by SonyaArin

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I feel like its less about the circle they are moving in, more about the positional updates.
Now, I'm not sure how the positional updates work entirely, so correct me if I'm wrong, but they update every 0.3 seconds (+/- lag), when you cast a spell, and when you change direction right?
If that is the case, the twister seems to be: Take a movement, and the first change of direction says "I'm here", and that is where the twister gets positioned as the cast is completing. Then you have kept moving in that new direction, and then change again (Making the "box/spiral" shape that you saw). This then says "now I'm here", which is NOT in the twister mine. And yes, in some situations, lag will still cripple you.

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Originally Posted by Rumstein

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Generally I feel that's how it's been working, yes. The circles happen to be a great way to do it in confined space so you don't run into other people's, or, in the case that someone DOES explode, you don't get blown away if they happen to fail their own.