Dark Knight

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Originally Posted by darzok

The remove enmity fix is not the only problem DRK would need a shield or the base GLD skills need a rework other wise you end up with what 4-5 skills that the DRK can not use in any way.

The work needed to have it come off GLD means the odds are if any thing it will come form Mara there is no need to read all the topic to work out the rework needed to make it work form GLD.

I know what yoshi said and people take it the wrong way and go DRK is coming form GLD its a fact yoshi said so and that is not what he said he just gave a basic example of HOW it could be.

The whole style of DRK form most other games puts it as coming form the Mara if not a whole new base class it self unless you go with the real old ff games where it did run around with a shield.

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Don't let her get to you, she is clearly trolling. Yeah I am calling you out Exstal :P

I am in agreement that Dark Knight would be much more suited to come from a new class, that could be tailored to handle both a tank and DD job branching off from it.

Is it possible to make DRK come from pld or mrd? you bet. But being tailored would leave the best experience in everyone's mouths. That goes for any
new job they want to release from existing classes. It will take a lot of work, but sure its doable.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

give me a great sword class, with DD job DRK, and tank job Rune Fencer
and we can all be friends :) lol

Scythe can even come back as a different class, go for it, but I'd love a
large sword dark knight

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I completely agree with this! mainly becuz when Rune Fencer was released on FFXI i had stopped playing by then, lol. But similar to SCH/SMN branching from Arcanist. They could do the same and have a class that uses Great Swords branch off to Rune Fencer as tank and Dark Knight as DPS, I would love that. SE make it happen PLEASE!!

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Don't let her get to you, she is clearly trolling. Yeah I am calling you out Exstal :P

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Using logic is trolling..where have I seen that before?

Its fairly simple. All increase enmity skills instead now have reduced enmity bonus while the job stone is on. Rampart can change from giving 20 defense to reducing defense by 20 to increase damage by 5%. This can be repeated across all skills and frankly is the laziest way to do it.

Changing base skills to suit a different job isn't a very difficult process. Games with access to multiple job paths do it all the time. If Dark Knight is limited by anything it will be the creativity of the dev team. You could make DRK come from Conjurer and still make it work Class skill wise. Changing skills around certainly isn't an issue. If anything I'd look at previous weapons. Which of course were mostly swords , along with fan conception seeing a connection between DRK and PLD. That's why people think it will come from Gladiator. As far as FF classes go there are plenty of things that already use axes that fans would be happy to have be the DPS on MRD.

Its only logical to assume based on previous titles, what the dev team themselves have said, along with the way FF handles Dark Knight, to assume that it could come from GLD and not MRD, it would of course be even better for them to make it come from a brand new class but that's up to the Dev team,

I keep seeing the only reason Dark Knight should come from MRD is the life drain skills. Dark Knights can easily have Blood weapons that drain health as they have done in the past . Having an entire skill set that drains health isn't at all what Dark Knights do. They take away health to do damage. They drain it back either through a singular skill or through their weapons. Not with a live forever setup. They are glass cannons that reduce their own health or defense, not extremely high HP steal damagers that can live forever.

(posterity)

As for the Op, I think I have made my point.

I still see Lancer as the best current class to create Dark Knight out of. The lance curves into scythe to give a FFXI throwback. They already have a lifestealing ability in Life Surge and all kinds of DPS, and the jumps all get replaced by the Drk job skills. Their skills already sound Dark Knighty in Chaos thrust, blood for blood, doom spike... Make blm the req sub and marauder the other cross and done. Perhaps even tweak the marauder skills that have life steal to also be cross class. Souleater lvl 30 job skill and other cool things from their.

I love all these comments about Dark Knight branching from tanks. Last I checked the Dark Knight is a DPS or DD class. Given and as much as I hate to say this about MY most favorite class in all of final fantasy may become a tank the way 14 is Dark Knight could become a tank. The class or classes I see it pulling from is Mrd because they kinda already have life stealing abilities even though there crap or a new one that they make. I wouldve said Blm but not of there abilities are like they were in 11 were you can absorb health or states. (edit) One thing I would like to add though is I really do hope that the Dark Knights weapon is not a two handed sword they looked hideous in 11 though gfx are better now that what they were back then but two handed swords to me just aren't that awesome. Now a scythe or a sword and shield now we are talking lol.

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

I love all these comments about Dark Knight branching from tanks. Last I checked the Dark Knight is a DPS or DD class. Given and as much as I hate to say this about MY most favorite class in all of final fantasy may become a tank the way 14 is Dark Knight could become a tank. The class or classes I see it pulling from is Mrd because they kinda already have life stealing abilities even though there crap or a new one that they make. I wouldve said Blm but not of there abilities are like they were in 11 were you can absorb health or states. (edit) One thing I would like to add though is I really do hope that the Dark Knights weapon is not a two handed sword they looked hideous in 11 though gfx are better now that what they were back then but two handed swords to me just aren't that awesome. Now a scythe or a sword and shield now we are talking lol.

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Arcanist. And yes that's a complete rebuttal to your post.

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

Last I checked the Dark Knight is a DPS or DD class.

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Last time I checked, every single class before FFXI was a DPS or DD class.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Last time I checked, every single class before FFXI was a DPS or DD class.

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You know your funny but sarcasm doesn't work on me. If you seriously don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all because your is wasting peoples time.

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

You know your funny but sarcasm doesn't work on me. If you seriously don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all because your is wasting peoples time.

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He's right though. People want DRK to be a dps class when it could actually work as a tank class and in all honesty should be implemented as such. The only basis people have that DRK belongs in the dps role is from FFXI. Before that there was no roles and anything depicting the DRK class was statistically built with high armor/health.
As for your butt hurt attitude toward his post take your own advice.

Edit: I finally found the post I wanted to link here in the first place. Kitru posted it months back and I thank him for it.

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If you actually look at the various incarnations of Dark Knights over games other than XI, they've actually been a very tanky class:
The very first Dark Knight is Leon from FF2 who is a one of your most durable characters, with high hp and defense. The only "damage dealer" kind of thing he gets is access to Black Magic, which is no more anti-tank within the confines of the classless FF systems than PLD getting White Magic.
Cecil, in FF4, is *still* super tanky while a Dark Knight, what with high defense, hp, and heavy armor. The only "damage dealer" aspect he gets is the whole sacrifice-hp-to-increase-damage/deal-damage thing, which still doesn't preclude his tankiness given the fact that he is still your most durable character *and* it's another of the FF games where you don't have anything resembling a trinity construct so even the durable characters are supposed to be throwing out as much damage as possible.
In FFX-2, Dark Knight is, once again, a highly durable class: high hp and high defense. The same explanation of hp-sacrifice as applied to Cecil applies here.
In FFT (which the devs seem to be drawing a lot of their inspiration from), Dark Knight is *explicitly* a tank class: heavy armor, shields, knight swords, and an at-will hp regain ability that makes them virtually impossible to kill. Gafgarion is one of your best tanks outright.

The only incarnation of DRK that is an explicit damage dealer rather than following the model for tanks that the devs have been drawing from to turn into tanks for ARR is FFXI, which is nowhere *close* to "all games". At worst, DRK was a tank that used BLM instead of WHM. In general, it was a tank that had the option to sacrifice hp to become a damage dealer for a short period.

It's important to keep in mind that in every single Final Fantasy, with the exception of XI, *there was no trinity*. Everyone was expected to deal damage and take hits. If your only definition of "tank" is "has cover" then the only tank that would be around would be PLD, which is a *terrible* idea for an MMO since having only a single option for a role is boring as hell. When you're pulling classes from games that don't have a trinity and assigning them roles to fit *into* a trinity, you have to look at attributes other than "takes damage for other people" (especially given the fact that oftentimes the characters aren't actually meant to be balanced against one another); you look for high defense, high hp, and a lower than average damage dealing capacity compared to the explicit damage dealers (Cecil as DK compared to Edge or Yang; DK dressphere compared to Gunner or Thief; Dark Knight in FFT compared to monk, lancer, archer, or ninja).

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

He's right though. People want DRK to be a dps class when it could actually work as a tank class and in all honesty should be implemented as such. The only basis people have that DRK belongs in the dps role is from FFXI. Before that there was no roles and anything depicting the DRK class was statistically built with high armor/health.
As for your butt hurt attitude toward his post take your own advice.

Edit: I finally found the post I wanted to link here in the first place. Kitru posted it months back and I thank him for it.

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No your right about all the Dark Knights of the past having pretty much been a Tank Cecil being my favorite and in no way was I saying that DrK couldn't be Tank if you read my first post I was just saying that from the mmo stand point that DrK was dps /dd. either way I just want my favorite job back ^.^ I just don't appreciate when ppl have sarcasm like theirs

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

No your right about all the Dark Knights of the past having pretty much been a Tank Cecil being my favorite and in no way was I saying that DrK couldn't be Tank if you read my first post I was just saying that from the mmo stand point that DrK was dps /dd. either way I just want my favorite job back ^.^

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There is only 1 example though of it being a dps and that was XI. Now for all its "acclaim" and grandeur people are looking at XI through rose colored glasses should not be used as any basis for this game whatsoever. I do understand your desire to have it as a dps as I am also the same way. But I think it would be better for the overall health of the game if it was implemented as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

There is only 1 example though of it being a dps and that was XI. Now for all its "acclaim" and grandeur people are looking at XI through rose colored glasses should not be used as any basis for this game whatsoever. I do understand your desire to have it as a dps as I am also the same way. But I think it would be better for the overall health of the game if it was implemented as a tank.

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I just hope as a Tank that the weapon they are given isn't a big a** sword. ^^

Yes, give one class multiple tanking jobs. This will work out splendidly.

I mean having multiple different ways to tank worked so splendidly for Death Knight in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Yes, give one class multiple tanking jobs. This will work out splendidly.

I mean having multiple different ways to tank worked so splendidly for Death Knight in WoW.

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If you read the post it said that the two iterations would be dps from GLD job or tank from an entirely new job. I'll just chalk it up to ignorance.

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

You know your funny but sarcasm doesn't work on me. If you seriously don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all because your is wasting peoples time.

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It isn't sarcasm. You're trying to tell me in every Final Fantasy game ever released except for FFXI there was a such thing as TANK/DPS/Healer? My original post was incorrect though.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Last time I checked, every single class before FFXI was a DPS or DD class.

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It should actually have said, "Last time I checked, every single class, that wasn't a pure healer, before FFXI was a DPS or DD class."

But please, if you have some proof to the contrary I would like to see it. Since you have nothing nice to say, you're wasting people's time with your biased view.

Totally going DRK if it involves a scythe or a one handed sword.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

If you read the post it said that the two iterations would be dps from GLD job or tank from an entirely new job. I'll just chalk it up to ignorance.

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I'm assuming you mean class, in which case you re-read my post. I very clearly said "let's give one class multiple tank jobs" which implies I disagreed with making DRK a tank job if it was a GLD job stone. If it was split off an entirely new class I'd disagree on general principle of not giving GLD something.

Since I'm sure you can read at a greater than third grade level, I'll assume you were just tired.

SE could always introduce the Soldier class from numerous other final fantasy games as a great sword user and have Drk come off of that. Mrd no doubt will be getting Berserker or Viking their skill set matches those 2 more.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

I'm assuming you mean class, in which case you re-read my post. I very clearly said "let's give one class multiple tank jobs" which implies I disagreed with making DRK a tank job if it was a GLD job stone. If it was split off an entirely new class I'd disagree on general principle of not giving GLD something.

Since I'm sure you can read at a greater than third grade level, I'll assume you were just tired.

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I did mean class

That being said giving GLD a dps job is asinine because of how much is devoted specifically towards tanking. Traits are dictated by class and not job it would mean having to drastically alter their system. You are going to have to be prepared for GLD to not have another Job that isn't tank based. And before you start throwing yoship quotes around he just used it as an example. Would you really want a dps job based off a tank class?

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

That being said giving GLD a dps job is asinine because of how much is devoted specifically towards tanking. Traits are dictated by class and not job it would mean having to drastically alter their system. You are going to have to be prepared for GLD to not have another Job that isn't tank based. And before you start throwing yoship quotes around he just used it as an example. Would you really want a dps job based off a tank class?

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I actually talked about this in another post earlier today. GLA and CNJ have particularly tough roads ahead of them if they are to get another job due to their extreme specialization. The potential for Darkside/Darkness to interrupt the tankiness of GLA is actually a good part of why it's discussed.

As for a DPS job off any tank, however, MRD is not only a good candidate, it's painfully obvious. The design is terribly similar to LNC already. You can practically match the two directly: Blood for Blood vs. Berserk, BB vs. FT, HT vs. Maim, Disembowel vs. Storm's Eye, Fracture vs. Phlebotemize. MRD has generally lower potency, but this is not difficult to address in a job design. Not only that, but from a mechanics standpoint, MRD is built as well as you possibly can for Dark Knight. Bloodbath, Thrill of Battle, Mercy Stroke, and Storm's Path all recover HP, which is a damage resource for Darkside/Darkness. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if I were designing a DPS class to work for a Dark Knight job, I'd basically end up making MRD.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

I did mean class

That being said giving GLD a dps job is asinine because of how much is devoted specifically towards tanking. Traits are dictated by class and not job it would mean having to drastically alter their system. You are going to have to be prepared for GLD to not have another Job that isn't tank based. And before you start throwing yoship quotes around he just used it as an example. Would you really want a dps job based off a tank class?

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I would want a DPS job based off a tank class, yes.

It's not hard at all to imagine a high VIT dps class that uses moves to sacrifice extra HP for increased damage. Use those vaunted tank cooldowns to survive normal incoming damage with less HP than other melee DD and it'd be fine.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

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I could see that happening. MRD has a lot of built in damage just a stance or something and they'd be set but I can't see GLD providing a viable dps job. Because the idea above is probably never going to happen.

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

I love all these comments about Dark Knight branching from tanks. Last I checked the Dark Knight is a DPS or DD class. Given and as much as I hate to say this about MY most favorite class in all of final fantasy may become a tank the way 14 is Dark Knight could become a tank. The class or classes I see it pulling from is Mrd because they kinda already have life stealing abilities even though there crap or a new one that they make. I wouldve said Blm but not of there abilities are like they were in 11 were you can absorb health or states. (edit) One thing I would like to add though is I really do hope that the Dark Knights weapon is not a two handed sword they looked hideous in 11 though gfx are better now that what they were back then but two handed swords to me just aren't that awesome. Now a scythe or a sword and shield now we are talking lol.

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The only people I see who think the DRK should be a tank are those who loved X-2, that exploit nitch group in XI, IV fans that think Cecil was tough (Sure he was, he was the main character and had to survive on his own at times), and trolls. If you look at the OP I pointed out points to ether side on the main games the DRK was in and it shows that the DRK's defining aspects were its ability to deal damage in all but X-2. Another group would be damage dealers who don't want more competition for DF ques. We do need more tanks, but sorry guys this is 90% likely not your horse then.

Oh and don't mind Exstal, she is obviously just trolling.

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Originally Posted by Tyvek

SE could always introduce the Soldier class from numerous other final fantasy games as a great sword user and have Drk come off of that. Mrd no doubt will be getting Berserker or Viking their skill set matches those 2 more.

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This is EXACTLY what I have been saying.

more than likely SE will introduce both DRK and SAM as hybrid jobs that are capable of dealing high dmg and falling back on magic(drk) or a stance(samurai) that reduces the enemy's ability to hurt them.

Its pretty obvious to me.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

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You've basically picked and chosen points out of a wiki that support your argument. If you go back and actually play the games you'll see that every single DRK job has exceptionally high defense. On the point of soldier the class that doesn't exist in any game whatsoever save for maybe a splash in tactics. In every other game its defined as a generic character who is usually only temporary. Unless of course you mean Knight in which case we have that already. It's called Paladin.

There are good arguments for having it for a tank and as a dps. But why dilute the game with something that has the potential to be a tank (with a 2 handed sword even) that way we can make way for things that are guaranteed to be dps (ninja, red mage, anything else). DRK, and SAM are both instances that could be potential tank jobs and leave room for other things that can't (or shouldn't) be a tank.

You can say that the job was focused on dealing damage but guess what? Every job pre XI was focused on doing damage save for the ones like whm that were dedicated to healing (holy, and summons aside). This is because there was no trinity in Final Fantasy before XI. Why shouldn't a high armor high health target be used as a tank? Just because they aren't proficient in shields doesn't mean they can't tank. See MRD/WAR.

So again i reiterate, why saturate the already heavily saturated dps pool with a job that could be used as a tank?

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

Y
So again i reiterate, why saturate the already heavily saturated dps pool with a job that could be used as a tank?

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You say this as if they aren't going to add multiple new healing and tanking jobs regardless of what DRK ends up being.

They won't add DRK as a Tank because it's simply not a Tank job. It's always LITERALLY been the exact opposite.

There are plenty of opportunities for more tank classes, support classes, and healing classes. This is FF, of course.

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Originally Posted by BrandoH

They won't add DRK as a Tank because it's simply not a Tank job.

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Well seeing how outside the two mmos there's never been trinity style play in FF you can say that about every class.

DRK's heavy equipment lends itself toward the idea more than a bit, but I generally agree it doesn't work given the thematic of the DRK hurting itself for more damage.

Personally I still like the "MRD DPS job" theory the most.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

You've basically picked and chosen points out of a wiki that support your argument. If you go back and actually play the games you'll see that every single DRK job has exceptionally high defense. On the point of soldier the class that doesn't exist in any game whatsoever save for maybe a splash in tactics. In every other game its defined as a generic character who is usually only temporary. Unless of course you mean Knight in which case we have that already. It's called Paladin.

There are good arguments for having it for a tank and as a dps. But why dilute the game with something that has the potential to be a tank (with a 2 handed sword even) that way we can make way for things that are guaranteed to be dps (ninja, red mage, anything else). DRK, and SAM are both instances that could be potential tank jobs and leave room for other things that can't (or shouldn't) be a tank.

You can say that the job was focused on dealing damage but guess what? Every job pre XI was focused on doing damage save for the ones like whm that were dedicated to healing (holy, and summons aside). This is because there was no trinity in Final Fantasy before XI. Why shouldn't a high armor high health target be used as a tank? Just because they aren't proficient in shields doesn't mean they can't tank. See MRD/WAR.

So again i reiterate, why saturate the already heavily saturated dps pool with a job that could be used as a tank?

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I agree I was probably biased, but calling this a straw-man is in itself a straw-man argument here, I did try to look at it as unbiased as i could. I went into it trying to find out where people calling for a tank from the DRK came from. What I found was that in all cases but 1 (In FFX-2) from the selected games the focus of the class was to to do damage and wield two handed weapons and magic to do so. Yes they maybe a tough class in other games, but different games require different class mechanics. Wiki was the best thing I could find as to an unbiased 3rd party. Feel free to develop your own list from wiki (An agreed unbiased 3rd party?).

However in the end, the one time the class acked like a tank, it played very similarly to a berserker. These berserkers wore leather and animal hides, and if you look at the Warriors AF2 art, you will see we already have our DRK tank version, its called the Warrior job. So that job is about literally already in the game and thus filled. I mean look at the warrior's art, it does look very similar to a dark even with those black horns; more specifically the AF+1 armor is even darker, but was having trouble finding a good pic of it.

Again, feel free to use the same resource and produce your own list. I would be interested to see what you come up with for key defining aspects list of a class from the various wiki references.
http://i.imgur.com/11c1W.jpg
http://cdn.dualshockers.com/wp-conte...Live_9_158.jpg

MRD/WAR is pretty much the opposite of DRK. WAR actually heals itself with a couple abilities and lessens its damage to hold more hate, whereas DRK has almost always hurt itself to do more damage, and made itself more vulnerable to attacks (despite sometimes wearing defensive-looking armor). I have no clue why you people keep thinking it will be a tank job.

NIN or SAM will be a tank before DRK.

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Originally Posted by BrandoH

NIN or SAM will be a tank before DRK.

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NIN would not be a tank. If you are referring to the XI community making ninja a tank then that was just poor game design and highly unlikely to happen again. Kitru has already stated that SAM has a lot of factors to become a great tank. I have already stated several times why I think DRK could be a tank job so unless you want to go back I suggest your refrain from making such broad (and already answered) statements.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

NIN would not be a tank. If you are referring to the XI community making ninja a tank then that was just poor game design and highly unlikely to happen again. Kitru has already stated that SAM has a lot of factors to become a great tank. I have already stated several times why I think DRK could be a tank job so unless you want to go back I suggest your refrain from making such broad (and already answered) statements.

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I would like to see a list or references/examples please. Simple points from Wiki would be okay. Because the DRK was never supposed to be a tank in XI ether, and when it was it was a DRK/NIN.

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Originally Posted by BrandoH

MRD/WAR is pretty much the opposite of DRK. WAR actually heals itself with a couple abilities and lessens its damage to hold more hate, whereas DRK has almost always hurt itself to do more damage, and made itself more vulnerable to attacks (despite sometimes wearing defensive-looking armor). I have no clue why you people keep thinking it will be a tank job.

NIN or SAM will be a tank before DRK.

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This is why:
The only people I see who think the DRK should be a tank are those who loved X-2, that exploit nitch group in XI, IV fans that think Cecil was tough (Sure he was tough, he was the main character and had to survive on his own at times; however DRK's side was damage dealing), and trolls. Another group would be damage dealers who don't want more competition for DF ques.

So don't worry about it, at this point I am 95% sure it will be a DPS. I also agree that NIN was supposed to be a DPS in FFXI, and probably still will.

Final Fantasy IV had Cecil as the main character.... and the majority of his time as a DRK was in the form of a tank.... When sheltering Rydia...... when paired with Rydia/Tellah..... when paired with Edward/Rydia...... when paired with Rydia/Edward/Rosa....... even when paired with Yang/Edward/Rosa/Rydia...... the Mt Ordeal instance with Tellah/Porum/Palum...... The only time he really was with some one with stronger gear than him was with Kain in the first mission...

If this model can be implemented, a DRK CAN be a tank.... Ideally, they would have to have EXTREMELY HIGH HP.... and hurting yourself to cause emnity could be the way to gain aggro...... kinda like a "smell blood in the water" type thing to attract attention....

I suggest it as an option, not a demand.... but with the XIV focus on movement... think of an ability where you can "cut yourself" and bleed over a path to attract the mob's attention to that area on the map... could be kinda cool

Another ability could be a "cleave" like ability that could permanently bind an enemy.... like chop off its leg, and the target will now be stuck in one spot (45 second bind)

Maybe a void ability in which all physical damage is converted into "regen" while magic damage is doubled..... or vice-versa

A taunt ability that acts as poision.... each tick will equal x amount of damage to yourself, but will cause increased emnity

and how bout a massive counter ability..... activating it would cause increased damage recieved for x amount of time (like waiting for the perfect chance to parry), and retaliates with decent damage dealt counter attack that adds a 30 second debuff and emnity

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

I would like to see a list or references/examples please. Simple points from Wiki would be okay. Because the DRK was never supposed to be a tank in XI ether, and when it was it was a DRK/NIN.

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I don't know if you're just adding words to to my posts or what but not once have I referenced DRK being a tank in XI. The amount of players who used tank DRK in XI were very small. Also I've already posted an argument that Kitru made from another post. If you had read my post on page 18 you would see the arguments made.