Do We Remember That a Game Is Meant to Be Fun?

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

Rotations are not easy, jobs dont play the same. If you do ultimates your rotations easily get warped and you need to adjust them around the fight.

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Godwin’s Law (FFXIV Edition): ‘The longer a discussion continues the higher the likelihood that someone will argue ‘just play ultimates if you want to have fun’

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

And as long as that is the case the devs will simplify the game, because in their eyes players still struggles with playing their jobs properly.

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You’re doing ultimates and your party members literally can’t even do their rotation? Sounds more like a party problem than part of the actual game design lol.

Also, cause-and-effect. Are people all just inherently ‘bad’ and ‘unskilled’ and all job design should be forever neutered in retaliation against these filthy casuals (doing ultimates) who can’t press buttons?

Or are job rotations and mechanics (and fight design) so uninspired and homogenized at this point that it breeds nothing but complacency in players that then transfers to higher level contents because they’re still going in with the mindset of ‘it’s so easy I can do literally nothing and still win’?

If job design was actually encouraging players to consider the encounter / situation / context relative to other players and the boss instead of being streamlined to the point of being a literal conveyor belt of abilities (that from what I hear is also extremely easy to automate precisely because of its fixed nature), would the ‘average skill level’ be so low? Is it literally an inherent thing that must be addressed with current job design? Or is something causing it?

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Originally Posted by Connor

Godwin’s Law (FFXIV Edition): ‘The longer a discussion continues the higher the likelihood that someone will argue ‘just play ultimates if you want to have fun’




You’re doing ultimates and your party members literally can’t even do their rotation? Sounds more like a party problem than part of the actual game design lol.

Also, cause-and-effect. Are people all just inherently ‘bad’ and ‘unskilled’ and all job design should be forever neutered in retaliation against these filthy casuals (doing ultimates) who can’t press buttons?

Or are job rotations and mechanics (and fight design) so uninspired and homogenized at this point that it breeds nothing but complacency in players that then transfers to higher level contents because they’re still going in with the mindset of ‘it’s so easy I can do literally nothing and still win’?

If job design was actually encouraging players to consider the encounter / situation / context relative to other players and the boss instead of being streamlined to the point of being a literal conveyor belt of abilities (that from what I hear is also extremely easy to automate precisely because of its fixed nature), would the ‘average skill level’ be so low? Is it literally an inherent thing that must be addressed with current job design? Or is something causing it?

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I didnt say that my party members cant do their rotations. Dont know why you make up such things or you just misread probably.I cleared all ultimates, and i didnt 'just clear', i cleared them really well. You cant really clear the newer ultimates without knowing your rotation. Also why do so many people have to use tools to clear high end content? Is it maybe too hard for them?

The average player you meet in a trial roulette cant do their rotation (and savage pf). How often do you see tanks running to narnia with a tank buster? I see it all the time.
Fight design has improved a lot this expansion. It actually depends how well tanks can position bosses, just look at m10s. Melees gotta work for their uptime now, too. Just look at m11s. Fights have become more stressful and hectic, too.

Casters, although they have a lot of mobility tools now still can easily run out of mobility tools in this tier.
The only 'free' role is physrange. Nothing threatens them to lose uptime ever and they have unlimited movement.
What i'm trying to say here is if you dont engage with high end content you dont understand it either. Healers are actually struggling to heal m11s! Who would have imagined that?
The healer strike was partly successful i guess. You wont feel the changes they did in the standard no difficulty roulettes. It impacts the highest end of difficulty.
And homogenization comes from the playerbase's choice of hyper balance. Thats just the side effect. As soon as a job "underperforms" its players scream for buffs and that sometimes involves homogenization.
I'm not talking about the 20 people on the forums critisizing jobs, i'm talking about those 95% of players that still struggle with their job's rotation.
Look at Valigatmanda ex, Nin couldnt use tcj in burst because a mech happened, tcj gets full movement. Ninjas complained that its bad design that they cant put their strongest ability in burst, so thats why the change happened. And that was not necessarily inspired by a forum post (maybe by jp because i read the proposal to change tcj a few times there) but it happened in game, in the trial itself when ninjas were complaining.

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Originally Posted by Khiel

Thank you for reading ❤️

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There are some things that you said I def resonate with; however, this game had the same formulaic release and event types since it first started in 1.0.
The fact that you found them once fun and now it's not the case anymore, it just means that you moved away from this type of fun. FF14 is no longer a game for you, and it's fine.

There were some shifts in the game, but it is not possible to cater to every single person out there. If you cater to everyone, you will end up catering to no one in the end.
Some people come and go; it's the ebb and flow of things. I wish you well.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

I didnt say that my party members cant do their rotations. Dont know why you make up such things.
The average player you meet in a trial roulette cant do their rotation (and pf). How often do you see tanks running to narnia with a tank buster? I see it all the time.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

Doing your rotation while doing mechanics. And that is what like 95% of players still cant manage.

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No but you literally did though. ‘Not doing your rotation while doing mechanics’….is different from not doing your rotation? So what, they’re all 100 gold parses on a dummy then turn grey once a mechanic appears? I’m skeptical.

Uhh…I can’t remember the last time I saw that? Certainly not on the regular lol.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

Fight design has improved a lot this expansion. It actually depends how well tanks can position bosses, just look at m10s. Melees gotta work for their uptime now, too. Just look at m11s. Fights have become more stressful and hectic, too.
Casters, although they have a lot of mobility tools now still can easily run out of mobility tools in this tier.

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So, ‘if you want to have fun go play savage’. Wonderful advice!

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

The only 'free' role is physrange. Nothing threatens them to lose uptime ever and they have unlimited movement.

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And they literally struggle to justify their existence in parties because of it lol; ‘we’re here to give you a 1% passive bonus’ is not a fun or interesting design for a subrole.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

What i'm trying to say here is if you dont engage with high end content you dont understand it either. Healers are actually struggling to heal m11s! Who would have imagined that?
The healer strike was partly successful i guess. You wont feel the changes they did in the standard no difficulty roulettes. It impacts the highest end of difficulty.

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So…we’re still circling back to ‘if you want to have fun just play savage/ultimates’ lol. Do you have any actual arguments?

The argument is that you are too bad to clear actual hard content and therefore have no idea what you're even talking about. I have seen you running around like a headless chicken in roulettes, so yes maybe jobs get simplified for people like you....
The normal content is not engaging for most because it is not meant to be engaging because it is supposed to be easily clearable. If you want to actually engage with the battle system in depth then you have to do content that forces you to do so. And as soon as hard mechs happen people will be focused on them. Healers dropping dots, melees breaking combo, casters running around without doing anything. So yes obviously the difficulty lies in doing mechs and rotation at the same time. Of course you wouldnt understand but maybe give it a shot. Try to clear the savage tier, or try FRU or TOP or DSR.
Then we can talk about difficulty

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

The argument is that you are too bad to clear actual hard content and therefore have no idea what you're even talking about. I have seen you running around like a headless chicken in roulettes, so yes maybe jobs get simplified for people like you....
The normal content is not engaging for most because it is not meant to be engaging because it is supposed to be easily clearable. If you want to actually engage with the battle system in depth then you have to do content that forces you to do so. And as soon as hard mechs happen people will be focused on them. Healers dropping dots, melees breaking combo, casters running around without doing anything. So yes obviously the difficulty lies in doing mechs and rotation at the same time. Of course you wouldnt understand but maybe give it a shot. Try to clear the savage tier, or try FRU or TOP or DSR.
Then we can talk about difficulty

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Ah yes, so we hide behind ‘you’re too bad a player to have an opinion’. lol sorry, I didn’t see the disclaimer when I signed up to the forums saying ‘gold parsers only’. Still not hearing any actual arguments besides some extremely predictable ‘I’m raider ur casual [and therefore have no right to an opinion]’ platitudes.

And frankly I don’t really give a shit if you saw me dead on the floor 100% of the fight. I don’t need some random internet person’s approval to post on this video game forum lol. “I saw you in a roulette one time without context and you were shit’ really isn’t the ‘gotcha’ you think it is.

‘Normal content shouldn’t be engaging’…and you really don’t see how that has an effect on people coming into savages/ultimates? How job design relative to encounter design is so different between the two that people go into savage/ultimates with the same sense of complacency? I mean, if you want to be the cause of your problems then keep advocating that everything is fine and the casuals should just go do ultimate lol

I'm not talking about logs or anything, stop derailing the discussion please.
My advice was to try savage and ultimate because it is a very interesting facette this game offers. Dont see how advising to try something new is bad.
The devs dont design ultimates and savage for 10 people, they design it with the intent for everyone to try it. It is fine if you are not interested in it or are too bad or whatever.
And i didnt say that the game shouldnt be engaging at lower levels, but it isnt engaging at lower levels. If i want to feel engaged i do the content that makes me feel engaged. Is it so hard to understand? My advice was honest. It wasnt meant to be an elitist raider comment or whatever, just a simple "try it if you havent"

For me that is where the fun in this game lies. I enjoy raiding and FFXIV is the best game for that, absolutely! If you dont enjoy it then thats fine. Just do the things you enjoy in the game. For me personally though this game is about raiding. It makes sense to me seeing how much raiding centered content they release.
If there is nothing you enjoy then quit and move on. Complaining wont change it, we all know that already. Also i havent seen you give any advice at all what they should do to have fun... Why even bother commenting if you have nothing useful to say?

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

I'm not talking about logs or anything, stop derailing the discussion please.

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‘You are too bad to clear actual hard content’…’oh but I’m not talking about your logs or performance just innocently mentioning that time you were in a roulette and ran around like a headless chicken’. Or you’re blatantly trying to characterise me as a ‘bad player’ because you somehow think that completely invalidates any argument I’ve made? Say it with your chest.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

My advice was to try savage and ultimate because it is a very interesting facette this game offers. Dont see how advising to try something new is bad.

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Because it completely invalidates the opinions of others? ‘It doesn’t matter if you don’t have fun elsewhere because savage and ultimates are fun’

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

The devs dont design ultimates and savage for 10 people, they design it with the intent for everyone to try it. It is fine if you are not interested in it or are too bad or whatever.

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So much for ‘I’m not talking about logs or performance’ lol. But you feel the need to point out that people can be ‘too bad’ for it.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

And i didnt say that the game shouldnt be engaging at lower levels, but it isnt engaging at lower levels. If i want to feel engaged i do the content that makes me feel engaged. Is it so hard to understand? My advice was honest. It wasnt meant to be an elitist raider comment or whatever, just a simple "try it if you havent"

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‘Saying you’re a bad player and referencing the time you were bad in a roulette and using it to argue that you can’t/don’t have a real opinion because you are literally incapable of understanding the world of savage/ultimates but it wasn’t an elitist comment just honest advice’. Really?

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

For me that is where the fun in this game lies. I enjoy raiding and FFXIV is the best game for that, absolutely! If you dont enjoy it then thats fine. Just do the things you enjoy in the game. For me personally though this game is about raiding. It makes sense to me seeing how much raiding centered content they release.
If there is nothing you enjoy then quit and move on. Complaining wont change it, we all know that already. Also i havent seen you give any advice at all what they should do to have fun... Why even bother commenting if you have nothing useful to say?

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My advice is to adjust job design and encounter design relative to what the many, many, many players are asking for? Like maybe jobs are too simplistic, and general content is too easy? Maybe one of the many people saying these things might actually be right? But I suppose I’m so bad a player I’m also incapable of deferring to the opinions of others who have done that content.

Complaining has changed countless things over the game’s lifespan lol. Energy Drain? Kaiten? Red Mage combo becoming ranged? Bard song buffs? It’s a video game feedback forum; complaining is like 75% of the point.

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Originally Posted by Connor

‘You are too bad to clear actual hard content’…’oh but I’m not talking about your logs or performance just innocently mentioning that time you were in a roulette and ran around like a headless chicken’. Or you’re blatantly trying to characterise me as a ‘bad player’ because you somehow think that completely invalidates any argument I’ve made? Say it with your chest.




Because it completely invalidates the opinions of others? ‘It doesn’t matter if you don’t have fun elsewhere because savage and ultimates are fun’




So much for ‘I’m not talking about logs or performance’ lol. But you feel the need to point out that people can be ‘too bad’ for it.




‘Saying you’re a bad player and referencing the time you were bad in a roulette and using it I argue that you can’t/don’t have a real opinion because you are literally incapable of understanding the world of savage/ultimates but it wasn’t an elitist comment just honest advice’. Really?




My advice is to adjust job design and encounter design relative to what the many, many, many players are asking for? Like maybe jobs are too simplistic, and general content is too easy? Maybe one of the many people saying these things might actually be right? But I suppose I’m so bad a player I’m also incapable of deferring to the opinions of others who have done that content.

Complaining has changed countless things over the game’s lifespan lol. Energy Drain? Kaiten? Red Mage combo becoming ranged? Bard song buffs? It’s a video game feedback forum; complaining is like 75% of the point.

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Are logs so important to you that you cant stop misunderstanding everything i said? Are you that insecure just because you got called out?
Pretty paranoid.
I play on console, so i dont really care about logs. If someone parses i look up my parse to see how i did. Thats normal i think.
If my opinion is that savage or ultimates are fun, how does it invalidate others opinions? Please explain.
I nwver said anything like your opinions dont matter if you dont like ultimates? Stop twisting the narrative already.
You are allowed to have opinions, but if you think you can talk about raids even though you dont raid then i think that opinion becomes less valuable.
Everyone can talk and have opinions about astrophysics, but if youre not an astrophysician then how valuable is that opinion?
And no im not comparing raiding to astrophysics, because i know that this is what you would understand again.....
"The many, many, many players are asking for" aka the loud minorty..... 20 people on the forums and a couple of reddit people, wow.
And no complaining does not stop simplification, complaining homogenizes.
If i made a thread about why bard still has dots even though dots dont work in this game anymore then it would be more likely that bard loses its dots rather than them changing the game so that dots are more impactful again.
And your advice isnt really helping people to find things to do that they can have fun with again.
Its more an advice to the devs that will never read this feedback anyway.

But i think my point is clarified and i wont reply to your ragebait anymore...
If you havent tried savage, ultimate, try it, maybe you find it fun. If not then that is ok. Not forcing anyone here.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

Are logs so important to you that you cant stop misunderstanding everything i said? Are you that insecure just because you got called out?
Pretty paranoid.

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‘Logs and performance ’. One of those things is not like the others. Performance being, how they perform mechanics and the like? Not their literal dps.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

I play on console, so i dont really care about logs. If someone parses i look up my parse to see how i did. Thats normal i think.
If my opinion is that savage or ultimates are fun, how does it invalidate others opinions? Please explain.

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Because the point isn’t that ‘ultimates are/aren’t’ fun, it’s that ‘everything else isn’t’.) So saying ‘but savage/ultimates are fun’ is completely ignoring the issue. Just like saying ‘95% of players can’t do rotations and mechanics at the same time therefore job design should remain the same’ ignores the fact of why that’s coming about in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

I nwver said anything like your opinions dont matter if you dont like ultimates? Stop twisting the narrative already. You are allowed to have opinions, but if you think you can talk about raids even though you dont raid then i think that opinion becomes less valuable.
Everyone can talk and have opinions about astrophysics, but if youre not an astrophysician then how valuable is that opinion?
And no im not comparing raiding to astrophysics, because i know that this is what you would understand again....

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And it’s not possible in your view for someone to study and understand astrophysics without literally being an astrophysicist? Perhaps by, say, deferring to the research and understanding of others.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

"The many, many, many players are asking for" aka the loud minorty..... 20 people on the forums and a couple of reddit people, wow.

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And what, the ‘silent majority’ is millions of people neither seen nor heard who all love the game just the way it is? Well my silent majority says something needs to change in encounter and job design to make it more about ‘fun’ and less about ‘raid balancing’. They’re also invisible.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

And no complaining does not stop simplification, complaining homogenizes.
If i made a thread about why bard still has dots even though dots dont work in this game anymore then it would be more likely that bard loses its dots rather than them changing the game so that dots are more impactful again.
And your advice isnt really helping people to find things to do that they can have fun with again.
Its more an advice to the devs that will never read this feedback anyway.

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And if people then complained about the lack DoTs (which they would)…they would immediately be back in the game. Like Energy Drain was, or Bard’s song buffs. Wouldn’t be surprised if we see Kaiten or Viper’s thing that disappeared idk a dot or something also come back; there’s been plenty of complaints about it.

Complaining ‘homogenises’ because so many players (including savage/ultimate ones and casuals) complain that they want more things homogenized. ‘Why should X have a DoT when Y doesn’t?’ ‘Why should Picto have strengths/weaknesses that other jobs don’t in downtime’ ‘why should Red Mage have to go into melee during burst’, etc etc etc.