If you cannot engage with the content because you are playing casually, then it is by rote definition not casual content. It is not a problem with 'NA Players conflating things', this is you trying to create a distinction without a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson
"You can engage with the content, just stop playing casually" is the functional cornerstone of your argument. I mean come on.
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07-30-2025, 06:38 AMAtma
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07-30-2025, 07:10 AMBrysonNo that's reductive... as I said earlier, I played casually arr - sb (alphascape)... at no point during that time (ft undergrad and also working ft) did I unironically think the game's content wasn't "for me."Quote:
Originally Posted by Atma
I still did savage here and there via pf, stil pursued relic weapons etc etc.. Did i clear things a lot slower? of course, I was playing casually. Was I able to still do the content? 100% yes.
It isn't a distinction without a difference.
Refusing to engage in content due to time constraints (hence playing casually) isn't the same thing as, the content itself, literally bars me from being able to do it.
How come people on JP who play casually (I was one of them, when I lived there) still clear things? people on JP don't unironically argue that because they play casually, they're incapable of doing things. -
07-30-2025, 08:03 AMbrinn12There's not enough incentive outside of glamours to farm Dungeons and Alliance Raids. And even if it had, the gameplay for dungeons specifically is abysmal. There is 0 variation and challenge, and if you know people who would enjoy farming these, then good for you and them, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker44
The substantial drop in sub count supports my point rather than yours. For live service games, I don't think there's any argument more important than community satisfaction. Not every MMO is going through the same thing FFXIV is, which means there's a clear difference. People only leave games when they are out of reasons to play. -
07-30-2025, 08:05 AMAtmaQuoted response trimmed just due to dumb character limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson
Here's what we'll do - I'll take a moment and for the sake of the discussion - even though I don't agree with you, I will grant your position for the conversation. I don't agree with it in principle because culturally there is a significant 'take what you are given and don't complain even if you hate it' difference in mindset, but let's roll with it for a moment.
What changes for me? I'm an NA player. Are you going to change the mindset of NA players? Am I? Are people going to stop kicking people from groups because "Bryson on the forums says 'this content should be available to people playing casually and we should just bear with it'"? No. It's not. Whether you like it or not, the NA 'raiding' culture is what it is. And it's not going to change just because you, or I, want it to be different. Sure, there's a limited amount of availability and short duration where 'learning parties' exist in the duty finder, but that's still typically going to expect that you've studied an external video, memorized a strategy for a 10 minute fight, and then are able to quickly start to be able to execute that strategy cause if you can't, there's a dozen other people waiting to take that spot who might be able to do it better. People are also parsing you, judging you even if they're smart enough not to say anything, because they continue to refuse to obscure that data and make parsing impossible.
This is the same argument that people have been making for multiple expansion packs. "Savage is midcore because Japanese players clear it." Yeah well, Japanese players aren't NA players and NA players want easy clears, not to teach someone new how to do it. Most NA groups will cancel a prog night rather than take along someone new because they aren't interested. My own BROTHER, as in flesh and blood sibling, won't even let me fill in for an absence because none of the rest of his group is interested in starting from square 1 if someone can't make it, they'd rather just skip the night.
And at the end of the day, none of that even answers the fundamental question of "am I having fun." So no, not buying the argument. The fact 'back in the day' you shoehorned yourself into some groups and cleared some savage content - most likely in the capacity of 'being carried months after it ceased being relevant content' - does not change my mind in the slightest. And yeah, I also 'progressed' on my relic back in the ARR days. I was carried and have no issues admitting that. -
07-30-2025, 08:14 AMBrysonI agree, am I having fun, should be really the only metric that matters. Where I part ways with some casuals (disproportinately na, which I play on now having moved back to Hawaii) is the notion that because xyz content requires things (let's say discord, guides, etc) that somehow "inhibits" they're ability to have fun. Sure that's a turnoff for some people, but not all. Casuals aren't a monolith. Some just have time constraints, but are otherwise great and clear things just fine.. slower, but fine. Other casuals have this entitlement attitude, that suggests merely paying a sub means everything (barring lets say ultimates) should be ez, require no vc no studying no guides nothing.. just zone in, clear and be done with it. That is a very NA perspective to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atma
Also for context, I'm not a JP player, I was just on JP cause I was there for a bit and ping on primal was awful. I didn't shoehorn myself into groups and I didn't get carried months after either.. When I had time, I did some savage floors and cleared some the week they released in pf. When I didn't have, I'd skip the tier entirely (hw and most of sb until alphascape).
I think this whole casual mc shc hc discussion is void of nuance. Having been a casual, I firmly believe, while having time constraints, I was still capable of doing the content as it existed. I don't think it being more "slow" "painful" etc etc is the same thing as "being barred" from doing so, solely because of my irl time constraints. -
07-30-2025, 08:30 AMAtmaAnd that's where we part ways for the most part, because the moment anything external is functionally required for reasonable success, we have left the realm of 'casual' and arguably 'midcore.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson
But yes, that's the point. It's about fun. It's relatively obvious from the statistics that nowhere near as much of the EN 'casual' base considers the requirements - as they exist in NA culture - to engage in savage fun. If they did, the clear rates would be higher and closer to par with JP servers. And if the devs want to continue to cater to that, of course they can. The game will continue to slowly wither and die off, since JP, while sizeable, is not their primary userbase. So maybe, just maybe, it's time to stop listening to them exclusively and start listening to others.
Here's what I'd call midcore/etc, btw.
1. They need to implement scaling gear. I do not understand why this game continues it's indefinite trend of 'dungeon gear is worthless except for glamours and a temporary bump in ilvl till you get your 'starter set' at x9.' It's freaking awful design.
2. Week 1-2, people wipe a lot - a lot - but tend to clear within the duty finder limit. Weeks 3-6, it's still challenging, but gear is starting to 'catch up.' because we finally have scaling gear. Without reading strats, without having to be on VC, etc etc. The mechanics might be hard, but they're still intuitive enough to where you pick them up organically (and then, ideally, there's a 'next step' that's even more tuned. Yes, I'm saying we need a M+ equivalent, BECAUSE WE DO.
3. Ending the dumb 'live or die, no middle ground' meta.
4a. Fundamentally, the 2 minute meta as a whole needs to die, thus
4b. Ending the dependence on perfectly stacking buffs at 2m intervals ad nauseum to create comically exaggerated burst windows.
In my eyes, just from recent experience, Jeuno, the first walk for the first week was nearly perfect in terms of being right on the cusp of midcore. It was pretty rough while people were learning the mechanics, but it didn't require strats, VC, or 'progging.' A slightly more overtuned version of that raid with higher item levels would have been perfection. We don't need mechanics requiring people to jump through 90 flaming hoops in a perfect sequence -
07-30-2025, 08:47 AMBrysonWell I think it's important to not presume disinterest in something necessarily means that person found it "too hard." I don't craft, gather, pvp, rp etc etc etc.. because I don't care to, not because it's difficult. There are people who are otherwise casual for a whole host of reasons who actually would do just fine in savage (anecdotal i know, but I've played with these people, some even went on to clear tiers entirely, as well as ultimates during the shb content drought)Quote:
Originally Posted by Atma
hardcore midcore casual are all arbitrary lines drawn in the sand. If you poll 10 casuals from all the regions, you'll get mixed results on where 1 ends and the other begins. I had casuals in my FT reclears.. these people literally don't do savage or ultimates. They just play casually here and there, and are able to commit some time a couple nights a week to moving the needle in FT. Now some casuals are allergic to discord, that's their problem, not the content.. like I said, I've been a casual for years, but never saw vc as a hurlde (I literally just mute myself).
1. I agree, I'd delete tomes entirely, and make the gear from dungeons, af armor, and ex trials more relevant, along with the crafted gear and obviously savage. Tomes are trash
2. I don't see reading strats and/or vc as a problem, so we'll agree to disagree.
3. Idk what this refers to, this tier was pretting forgiving, we had deaths and dmg downs on floors and still cleared week 1.
4. No problem ending 2 min meta.
I want MSQ to raise the floor of the game entirely.. I don't think casuals should be "Afraid" "Intimidated" etc etc by challenges.. I actually find what I'd consider pandering to be incredibly patronizing. As if people are incapable of improving. -
07-30-2025, 08:57 AMAtmaI agree, that's just why I'm giving mine just to provide a context point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson
For 3, there are ample examples of 'live or die, no middle ground' mechs in the game. Pushbacks into walls that result in either instant death or bleeds that almost assure your death are some examples that just pop into my head.
I'd keep tomes but in the same capacity as a 'pity prize...' existing just to make sure you don't get hosed over if you go through a draught of nothing dropping for you. Pity prizes are important, it just sucks to go weeks without anything you need dropping. I don't think they should be the primary source of gearing, but careful - this is blasphemous talk to a lot of people.
I'm not 'allergic' to discord. I just do not think that content in games should be designed that it is an assumption. There are plenty of people in this world who either have social anxiety, or simply have no interest in being on voice chat with randos. Mine principally is the latter. If a mechanic can't be conveyed in short form through text, it probably only belongs in content designed for higher tiers of play. That's all. I get it, it's an opinion like anything else, but the line for me kind of breaks down at 'if it can't be done with only the tools the game intrinsically affords me, I don't think it can reasonably be called casual content.' -
07-30-2025, 10:44 AMseolhyun
they better hope there is a 2nd ultimate or this game is gonna die with 7.5 potentially lasting a year at the current pace.
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07-31-2025, 02:49 AMBrysongame can't "die" when you have hundreds of thousands of msq andies and rpers. Most recent lucky bancho census had 880k active players.Quote:
Originally Posted by seolhyun
Also, I'm more doomer and don't believe DT will have a 2nd ultimate. Even if it is ready for release, I could see them sitting on it and releasing in 8.1. I don't think they'd unironically have ultimate, OC/FT, and criterion all throughout .5.. doesn't sound like SE.