Controversioal Changes to Monk

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

One Ilm Punch was always a stun, Arm of the Destroyer used to have a silence attached to it. Stormblood changed One Ilm Punch to be able to stun regardless of the enemies resistance to it.

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Ah that explains my confusion xD.
I remembered there was a silence and that we had an ability that was removed and how the animation looked, so I connected the two together.

Totally forgot we still had it in Stormblood even now that you mentioned it I honestly still don't remember it.

I think the core issue to Monk, at least for people 'bouncing off' the job (as the needs of people trying a job and the people already 'all in' are different) is that it has terrible player feedback, leading to a bad job feel.

If you are playing a monk well... what do you get? More DPS. But DPS in XIV is deliberately obfuscated and most jobs are designed so that preforming the basic, core loops of these jobs gives you something flashy to say 'You are on the right track.'

When you are doing the basics of your BLM rotation, you get giant explosions to clue you in on something good happening. When you do the basics of your RDM rotation, you get tons of cool sword attacks followed by an explosion. Warrior? FELLCLEAVE. PLD? Confietior. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD LILLY, crazy Iajutsu effects, ect.

What does Monk do to show you that things are going well and you are doing damage? Literally nothing. Monk is actually pretty uniquely terrible as a job (in part because half of its new abilities over its life were basically 'try to fix the terrible mistake of GL') in that you are doing the exact same thing you do at level 30 with the class. It plays and looks like a job that is stuck in Copperbell Mines forever. It, in essence, plays like a class, because even when you are doing the right thing you just get nothing but very invisible potency increases.

This isn't me saying 'positional abilities should go away' anymore than I think BLM cast times should go away. It is just the Monk BADLY needs TLC to its abilities and how it tells you that you are doing well. One of my buds put it best as they were leveling Monk: "I have no idea what I am doing or if I am even doing damage, but then I solo something and it dies fast so I guess I am?'

The job lacks an Iaijutsu equivalent; a technically unnecessary ability (You COULD just put Iaijutsu's potency into the rotation's buffs and debuffs and keep the job's performance and difficulty exactly the same) that exists for the player's benefit to let them feel like they accomplished something within the rotation. Greased Lightning was... kind of that? But in the worst, purely negative way. The obvious answer is either giving them cool animations when they are hitting a positional vs a debuffed target with their buff on (the "Black Mage Fire IV" solution), or give them a chakra every time they hit an attack in said situation so that doing the rotation correctly gets you a big flashy attack every so often (The "Samurai Iaijutsu" solution). It won't fix all the job's problems (it ultimately needs more done) but if the core thing you are doing in the job feels limp adding crazy secondary stuff won't matter, and MNK is mainly about its "1-2-3, 4-5-6" rotation.

Personally I'd actually like to see them go further with the '' combo master '' concept.
To make it revolve more around drifting from the standard 123 to what we do during our dps cd phase.
I wouldn't say no to an Iaijutsu equivelant like I mentioned before MNK kinda feels atm like SAM without a finisher.
But I also think it'd be playing it safe and make it feel a bit too similar maybe.

I'd like to see us drift into other combos without the need of popping cds ( not to mention that 90 sec feels too long ).
Maybe bring back GL but instead of the attack speed you keep it up for a certain amount of time and then it allows you to use something like Dragon Kick and Bootshine spam and it also refreshes Demolish and Twin snakes.
Preferably it should be new abilities tho which is also why I want a new basic combo, alternatively when it pops it could also become upgraded versions of Dragon Kick and Bootshine with new animations too if we want to avoid more buttons.

That to me at least would be a bit more interesting than just Forbidden Chakra 2.0.

Imagine coming to the official forums to suggest changes to monk when you don’t understand the class at all… and I thought monk had the lobotomy

Tasteless, watered down, and lacking an actual gimmick to fill the void is the current iteration of monk.

Tbch it needs a secondary gauge to grant a free SSS or TK and it would be great. Something like correctly landing 9 positionals in a row and you get a free SSS ogcd. This free one doesn’t have the cd extension but still grants movement speed. Can be stacked 2 times. Be akin to dragoon in the way you can’t open with it but it’s there throughout the fight as long as you land positionals.

I'd rather we not lose positionals, losing GL was already an unnecessary cudgel to the job. The answer to Monk dropping stacks because of extended down phases/in fight cutscenes was just for the job to have a decent GL recovery option and to change Tornado Kick to do something else. Leaden Bootshine's positional potency should also come down since missing it is like missing as much potency as missing every single Dragoon positional at once, but positionals shouldn't go away.

Being able to use 6SS without the extended Cooldown for fulfilling some requirement is something I've advocated a decent amount for in the past, and it remaining a positional free formless skill would give us a more interesting optimization tool for if we have to miss a single positional. Sort of like what Fracture and Touch of Death were in the past, just without the DoT.

I also don't know about the proposed Anatman change, but that's mostly because I think the skill is completely unsalvageable.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

One Ilm Punch was always a stun, Arm of the Destroyer used to have a silence attached to it. Stormblood changed One Ilm Punch to be able to stun regardless of the enemies resistance to it.

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One Ilm Punch actually had the effect of removing a single buff from an enemy in ARR/HW, however basically everything resisted it except for a handful of mobs with Stoneskins which is why it was such a meme.

The stun was new in Stormblood but didn't salvage the skill's (deservedly terrible) reputation.

It was even worse than i remembered it x.x

I've made quite the number of posts already suggesting that what I feel is a fitting direction for a new job gimmick is a Blitz mechanic. Utilizing forms (Opo-opo, Raptor, Coeurl) as the combination inputs that essentially lead to a 4th combo step that changes depending on the combination. It could be used to bring some variance and strategy back to the core combo, (e.g. being rewarded a powerful Blitz by using double True Strike, this can be further nuanced by having some sort of reward for keeping up Twin Snakes so using double True is not always the optimal choice, just like how it used to be when GL was around) as well as fully reform what Perfect Balance could be used for instead of unga bunga Bootshine spam.

Does it make MNK perfect? Hell no, it's just my selfish wish of wanting the job to be more than just Bootshine: the job.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I think the core issue to Monk, at least for people 'bouncing off' the job (as the needs of people trying a job and the people already 'all in' are different) is that it has terrible player feedback

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The fact that one of the job's most important dps buttons is BOOTSHINE really speaks to how little the devs have actually cared about Monk going into and throughout Shadowbringers. If they let me delete the job crystal at this point, I would.

You bring up an excellent point about the visual feedback as well. Are we actually Monks? We BARELY look the part outside of clothes we wear most of the time. We're still scrapping like some loser on the bloodsands, and our best animations don't even get to play out because we're cutting them off all the time. Even our animations haven't been conceived with any consideration for what we're expected to do.

I have zero faith in whatever they're going to call a rework for 6.0 because structurally, from Pugilist until Monk, the entire job is fundamentally broken, and the only thing that remotely works is the 123, 456 that we have been doing for years. They need to literally drop a moon on it, have the moon blow up and reveal Sabin from FF6 AND Tifa from FF7, get suplexed by them, and start from scratch. In my eyes I don't believe they have the resources to spare that kind of effort on one job when they're also throwing in yet another DPS to eat our lunch, while also adding another healer (and having to untangle that OTHER mess they made for themselves with this expansion).

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

Imagine coming to the official forums to suggest changes to monk when you don’t understand the class at all… and I thought monk had the lobotomy

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Remember that every job needs to work not just for the people who already like it, but people who want to get into it, either just because they like the thematics, or think it is interesting at low levels. Often times the criticism made by people who are 'bouncing off' the job misses the point, but its important to keep in mind those people still have correctly noticed an issue with the job and any fix not only has to make the job engaging and fun for its current users, but ALSO make the job exciting for people who like the look of it and be fun to learn.

SAM, for example, is the gold standard of this, with I would say BLM a bit behind. Meanwhile MNK and especially SMN are REALLY bad at the 'fantasy' aspect of the job.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

The fact that one of the job's most important dps buttons is BOOTSHINE really speaks to how little the devs have actually cared about Monk going into and throughout Shadowbringers.

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It is truly wild to me that the auto-crit bootshine and the correctly applied tornado kick don't get alternate flashy animations when you are using them to A: make it more clear that you probably went through rotation effectively, and B: makes perfect balance bootshine spam actually fun, akin to getting TO GO HAM WITH FELLCEAVE.

If Crit Bootshine had a cool mechanic I am sure that 'Monk is bootshine the job' would be far less of a common complaint, because it would more resemble a traditional burst window in terms of gamefeel where you suddenly get to spam your coolest attacks really really fast.

Of course flashy animations aren't a panacea, especially if over-applied and not related to any sort of 'reward' mechanic, as MCH shows us quite clearly.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Remember that every job needs to work not just for the people who already like it, but people who want to get into it, either just because they like the thematics, or think it is interesting at low levels.

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That´s nonsense. We all started once, have tried different classes etc. Not every class should be for everyone and will definately never match everyones taste. That´s why different classes or skilltrees exist in any games. Do you like bananas? Not my fav, but if the would´ve the taste of raspberries...
Themes or aesthetics doesn´t represent a class too. They are there to be there. What if MNK animations change? Do such ppl drop the class then, even if the gameplay is made for them?

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

but its important to keep in mind those people still have correctly noticed an issue with the job and any fix not only has to make the job engaging and fun for its current users, but ALSO make the job exciting for people who like the look of it and be fun to learn.

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Self-made issues are no gameplay-issues. Positionals have ever been the core aspect of MNK. It´s would be like playing a SAM without a katana, a NIN without mudra or even a healer without healing abilities.
If you don´t like a concept of a class, why should it change? There are more than enough OLD AND NEW players who like it. It´s not like 99,9% of all players agree on this like we call "anatman is useless".

If someone really likes a class for whatever reason, then just go and learn it? I did it, friends did it, thousands of other players did it...
It´s just nonsense.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

SAM, for example, is the gold standard of this, with I would say BLM a bit behind. Meanwhile MNK and especially SMN are REALLY bad at the 'fantasy' aspect of the job.

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SAM is no gold standard as much as BLM isn´t. SAM is just easy to play and together with his tons of damage, you don´t even need to master the class to compete in the endgame. That´s the real reason why it´s so popular especially in the endgame.
BLM on the other hand isn´t even a favorite job. It´s the least played job next to MNK. I for myself would like to be a badass caster, but guess what? I don´t like being a static turret with tons of casting times. Maybe they should get ride of them and give me positionals instead?

And just as overall reference... away from eureka / bozja where the most run RDM for an obvious reason, the most played classes are definately SAM, SMN and DNC. SAM for the reason i called, SMN obviously because a lot of girls out there like to play a pet class as starter. DNC is a free kill class too. It´s the easiest in FF14 when we talk about DPS and you let others work (carry) for you.

PS: It´s not even hard to get used to any class in FF14. The most ppl are just lazy, don´t read skills, don´t use their brain or are not able to google any guide. Then they come in here to complain. (And i´m not even talking about "mastering a class".)