AST changes for 6.0: Let's forget 5.0 happened, and just fix what was wrong with 4.0

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

I don't disagree that AST's gimmick was changed for the better on a design level to match the consistency that the game demands. RNG in job design has no place which is why they're slowing and surely rid them of such.

But I find your tone also condescending as well. It's not wrong that people would miss the old flavor of cards. I think you underestimate how many people play this game on a very casual level and play jobs for the lore behind them.

There's a reason why the AST play rate is abysmal and there's a split in the community itself. People aren't happy with how AST turned out in 5.0. Be it the cards or the removal of time aspects.

I still play AST because it's the best of healers that feel active but that doesn't mean it wasn't without being sad over they've done to it. Personally, I miss those things but I understand why they did it.

SE has a history of neglecting the healing community with silence (check fairy ghosting and 4.0 WHM). People are allowed to voice their unhappiness because the role isn't in a best place. Balance wise sure there's no bad healer anymore but for play style issues? SE missed a huge mark on that one.

Let's also remember that SE has a history of removing things from existing healers and putting them on another or even repackaging them for a new ability which is quite lazy to many of us. Temperance is just largesse with a Shield Samba attached to it. Celestial Opposition is just Diurnal Helios and Horoscope is an AoE Excog. That's not to say that all of these are bad but SE has dulled down interesting parts of healers for simplifying them with nothing in return (check SCH's Dots).

So my belief and it's likely is that SE will yet again change the cards for better or worse because tbh, it could have been well thought out if they had just committed to it instead of making it clunky. And no, I find 5.0 Sleeve Draw literal trash and 5.2 Sleeve Draw just as painful. Only 5.3 made it bearable to use.

Main take away, casual players wanting their cards back is not wrong, misguided maybe but this notion that AST should be the endgame tier healer that only us raiders can use is stupid.

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Something I'd like to add is that playing for endgame raiding and playing for lore are two things that aren't mutually exclusive. Some of us want all jobs to be both well-balanced for endgame raiding while still matching the lore and feel interesting to play--not just optimal to play.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Would you be so kind as to show us at least one of the many ways?

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Someone suggested a split with Draw - one for dps; one for support.
If we have to stick with this version of cards they could've kept Lord/Lady of Crowns from PvP where the former was a damage increase and the latter was a mitigation tool.
Divination could have been our major dps option (a one button press, no seals on a long cool down) and the cards could be nothing but utility.
The seals at least could have been a different effect each. All moons one, all suns, all celestial. A mixture of them would add effects at a weaker potency.

They had options.

Edit: Considering AST is based on Tarot reading I'm surprised they hadn't added an ability called "Reverse". In Satarn's post they explain an example of how it could work. A way to Reverse the current cards from damage to a mitigation would be a tiny step to card diversity.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Someone suggested a split with Draw - one for dps; one for support.
If we have to stick with this version of cards they could've kept Lord/Lady of Crowns from PvP where the former was a damage increase and the latter was a mitigation tool.
Divination could have been our major dps option (a one button press, no seals on a long cool down) and the cards could be nothing but utility.
The seals at least could have been a different effect each. All moons one, all suns, all celestial. A mixture of them would add effects at a weaker potency.

They had options.

Edit: Considering AST is based on Tarot reading I'm surprised they hadn't added an ability called "Reverse". In Satarn's post they explain an example of how it could work. A way to Reverse the current cards from damage to a mitigation would be a tiny step to card diversity.

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I think the main reason we've never gone with a Reverse action is because creating 6 different effects on the same CD has already been a headache to properly balance, and Reverse effectively means changing that from 6 to 12.

Many players suggested Reverse in the past as doing the opposite, like instead of old Balance increasing a party member's damage output, it increases an enemies damage received, and there are many issues with something like this. The effect ultimately is just a better upright Balance.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I think the main reason we've never gone with a Reverse action is because creating 6 different effects on the same CD has already been a headache to properly balance, and Reverse effectively means changing that from 6 to 12.

Many players suggested Reverse in the past as doing the opposite, like instead of old Balance increasing a party member's damage output, it increases an enemies damage received, and there are many issues with something like this. The effect ultimately is just a better upright Balance.

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*shrugs* With how the cards are now, a "Reverse" action to replace "Undraw" wouldn't be remiss. How one goes about it, well....

Keeping the current cards, "Reverse" would just change a Melee card to a Ranged one (same seal of course) which would fix the minor headache of "I have an entire dungeon/raid of ranged/melee dps a la roulette".

Using the old cards, "Reverse" would in theory be a similar approach. Balance to Bole, Arrow to Ewer, Spear to Spire, and of course the reverse (pun not intended) being true. That said between Reverse and Redraw and arguably Sleeve Draw since RNG is still a factor all 3 would encourage fishing even more than 3./4. AST. Tis an idea that needs further refinement than I can give at ~6am my time.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

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Reverse is just diversity for the sake of diversity. The reality is that support cards will always be reversed into dps cards.

What you're all ignoring while you come up with all these ideas is the reality on the ground.
AST is currently too strong to justify ever using a support card if you have the option to use a dps card.

Any system where a dps card competes directly with a support card results in the support card being ignored.
RNG support is not support. You need to be able to access a specific support card at a specific point in the fight - on-demand or through build-up.

Separation is the only way. I'll rehash some thoughts from a while ago based on several suggestions that came about at that time (not going to track down the old posts):

Draw/Play (DPS): 2 DPS cards - melee/ranged
Draw/Play (Support): 4 support cards (ideally, 4 equally useful non-dps effects)

Redraw (has an effect on the last card currently in your hand):
- If on a DPS card, gives the opposite card (melee -> ranged, ranged -> melee)
- If on a Support card, gives a different support card that you have not seen yet (like current Sleeve Draw). Using 3 Redraws cycles through all available support cards. Draw resets the pool of cards.

For example, you could do something like this: Draw (Support) -> Draw (DPS) -> Redraw(DPS) -> Play (DPS) -> Redraw (Support)

Divination:
- Base 4%
- 4 slots for DPS cards: 1% better divination for each card, going up to 8%.
- 1 slot for a Support card: functions as the activator. Fill this seal by sacrificing any one support card and you can cast Divination.


Some things to consider for more interactivity:

Divination could give an additional 1% for each pair of different cards: 3 melee + 1 ranged (9%), 2 melee + 2 ranged (10%). Maintain the Balance, so to speak. There is a problem with this - you'll want use up to 2 Redraws to ensure that 10% Divination, in which case you're giving up reliability on the Support side.

In the interest of making Support cards even more reliable, the Support slot in Divination can function as Spread did in SB. Essentially banking one support card for later use, giving you access to two support cards at any one time. You can save this Support card for use at a more opportune time, but you'd have to make sure another Support card is sacrificed so that Divination is usable when it goes off-cooldown.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

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Not a fan of Draw/Play (DPS) being split if for no other reason than having melee vs ranged when they do the same thing is dumb. That said, it fixes the problem of <insert stat here on a card is 100% better in all cases> so it'll have to be something I live with.

As far as Divination goes, personally mind you, I'd rather scrap the seals system entirely, keep your idea of DPS and Support Draws, and have Divination be a button to use on cooldown (same as now or increased) as it is in pvp. True your idea does give more interactivity especially with the seals balance idea, but I'd rather have AST's interactivity be kept more with the cards themselves than with seals.

Ignoring my bias dislike to the seals system (I'll take your card system over the current one any day) what are your suggestions with the support cards? I assume any stat that indirectly increases dps (skill and spell speed for example) would be off the table? Bole's old effect may be nice to have, but with the tools AST currently has, I'll be honest I don't see a good use for it. Old Ewer you can make and argument for as while AST has less mana issues now than it did before, co-healers could use it. PLD/DRK maybe if there's no BLM. And of course BLM. But would it be worth having over something else, if there can even be another effect?

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

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Melee/ranged is to have it be somewhat of a dynamic choice (like current system), instead of dumping it on the same person every time. The seal balance thing will require some Redraws (2 at most), leaving you with 2 more Redraws in a 2 minute window. So this means you won't be able to access every single support card (4 support cards, cycling through 3 of them if you use 2 Redraws for DPS). Which I'm not completely happy about because I think you should be able to access every support card (e.g. "I know that I will definitely find Bole 1m30s into the fight at the latest").

I think one of the more important things is the "Spread" idea on Divination. Allowing you to store a card and use it later. For example, I'm looking for Bole 45 seconds into the fight. I can dump all of my redraws on that and guarantee that I will have it. If I get it too early, I can just store it in divination. And now I see a scenario where I'd want Bole 2m15s into the fight and it would be pretty annoying to handle (Divination would sacrifice the card). So Maybe we could change the Divination slot so that you can swap the support card inside Divination with the one in your hand instead.

As for Support cards, yes, anything that increases DPS is off the table. I think it would require alot of thought to make them all realistically useful. Some quick ideas:
- Party-wide 10% mitigation for 10s.
- Single-target 10% mitigation for 30s. Mostly for tank autos.
- Single-target 20% mitigation for 5s. For TBs with strict timing.
- Some sort of delayed effect (say 6s) that snapshots a party member's HP/MP on cast and reverts it to the snapshot when timer expires.

I'm sure others can think of some neat ideas that can make all of them useful - they would no longer compete with DPS cards.
My main concern is the separation of dps/support and reasonable availability of support options.

I'm loving the ideas floating around about how to re-vitalize healers and make them actually fun again, but I can't help but have this little voice in the back of my head. Said little voice is telling me that SE will do something egregiously dumb, and be like "HEALERS! We've heard your complaints about healing being hard! As such, we've decided to disable Broil 3, Biolysis, and astrologian cards in duties so you can focus on healing!" You know, just - like, completely missing the point of what almost everyone is saying: That it's hard to enjoy. It's this persistent, pessimistic worry I've had with how they're pretty much hard-ignoring what AST and SCH players actually want, and to some extent - WHM players.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Any system where a dps card competes directly with a support card results in the support card being ignored.

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Not necessarily.
In fact, the only scenario where a DPS card would completely negate the usefulness of a support card, would be a situation of absolute optimization. By that point, however, Support, or healing in general, has likely been made obsolete, so you're really saying "any system where DPS competes directly with Healing results in the Healer being ignored."
I suppose, when you look at the game's current state and how the developers have been interacting with us, you're totally right.

If you must look at everything through DPS, consider that the Bole used to be more opportunities for an AST to focus on DPS, since it reduced all incoming damage for a time, meaning it lessened the need to heal. This was the same in solo content and in party content. With regards to the job itself, it was a boon. It just wasn't a direct boon to the DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by Videra

I'm loving the ideas floating around about how to re-vitalize healers and make them actually fun again, but I can't help but have this little voice in the back of my head. ... It's this persistent, pessimistic worry I've had with how they're pretty much hard-ignoring what AST and SCH players actually want, and to some extent - WHM players.

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There is not much that I can say to reassure you aside from this:

SE does know that many healers are unhappy with their jobs, both here in the west and in their home. From what we've seen with patch 5.3 specifically, any change that we collectively agree with and seems to make us happier, they will consider and even implement. (IE. One of the major complaints of AST was mp. We mostly agreed that giving some mp back on draw would be a good idea to fix it. 5.3's Draw and Sleeve Draw now give 800mp. According to the Tanks section, the changes to WAR were ones that were mostly agreed upon and also ones easy to tweak without doing a major overhaul, so they went through)

If we want to see our cards back, if we want improvements on WHM to give them more complexity/an identity, if we want SCH to play better, we as a community apparently need to come to a consensus on what it is we really want. That is the hope we have for any change.