Can we remove Tank Stance?

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Have you done Final Omega on War? I know I'm not the most optimal player but I haven't found a way to mitigate the random Target Analysis busters or short stacks without Defiance, outside of just making my healers deal with it. DRK/PLD do not require tank stance to mitigate these since they have Sheltron and TBN. "Best defensive tank by a mile" does have it's shortcomings.

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i said in defiance is the best defensive tank by a mile with is true, DRK and PLD on they respective tank stances can't compete against the amount of mitigation and self healing of defiance kit + regular kit of WAR.

target analysis can be done easily with holmgang or his current kit, what a surprise, you can even take the hit alone if you get the vuln and healers have a lot of healing power to dealt with you HP without any problem, even if you use defiance and inner beast you can minimize the penalty with unchained, so i don't see any really shortcoming with the most ridiculously versatile kit of the game, specially for only 1 fight.

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Originally Posted by shao32

i said in defiance is the best defensive tank by a mile with is true, DRK and PLD on they respective tank stances can't compete against the amount of mitigation and self healing of defiance kit + regular kit of WAR.

target analysis can be done easily with holmgang or his current kit, what a surprise, you can even take the hit alone if you get the vuln and healers have a lot of healing power to dealt with you HP without any problem, even if you use defiance and inner beast you can minimize the penalty with unchained, so i don't see any really shortcoming with the most ridiculously versatile kit of the game, specially for only 1 fight.

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It can target you every time but Holmgang is only available every other Target Analysis. Or if it selects the other tank repeatedly, being up front is not really enough damage to warrant Holmgang usage. For short stacks you are out of range so IB is not an option (well, barring the uptime strat which is complicated in it's own right).

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Removing CS didn't affect healer DPS much at all. Healer damage spells now work on MND, not INT. The overall DPS is about the same, just no need to stance dance.

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huh. I could very well be wrong. I never looked at the math and such. All I know is that the general potency of healer dps was nerfed when stance was changed however if the increased up time balances this out then good deal.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I don't think they need to be removed, but I do think they need to be reworked. At the least, the damage penalty is too high.

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There shouldn't be a damage penalty for being in tank stance in the first place, not being in your dps stance is already a damage penalty.
You're essentially killing yourself every time you enter tank stance.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Tank stances should be reworked or removed but not for the bad players, but how poorly the stance scale with content, right now any proper tank will spend 99,99% of the fight in dps stance and 00,01% in tank stance for the pull, agro is not a problem if you are proper geared and know how to make a strong pull even with average gear.

The primary problem with tank stances are the 25% damage penalty (the penalty inself and the skills use in such stance make all tanks lose 25% of his maximun dps) and how clunky and punishing is use to it with DRK and PLD and the extra defense it's doesn't have any significative impac outside of mass pulling and even with that if you are good enough you can turn it off to make more dps.

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*sigh* 99.99% of the time, eh? I wonder if you grabbed the fflogs of the best tanks in this game, if it would reflect that number.

*Large dungeon trash pulls
*healer(s) are down
*Fresh content
*MT just died
*Enmity reset
*Add phase
*shall I continue?

You really are including a lot in that .01% and I'm not even a tank main. And that's without mentioning that staying in DPS 99.99% of the time puts an enormous amount of pressure on your healers, and they are going to hate you when you burn up their ogcds and are forced to use hard casted cures on you, reducing their optimal play.

But let's say that 99.99% is an exaggerated figure. The primary problem with tank stance is not the reduction to damage. It's not even what I would call a problem, and having to choose between better defense and better offense is a great and very fun tanking gimmick that makes gameplay far more engaging. The primary problem is it costs you a gcd and MP to activate it, which during combat is clunky and potentially detrimental as well. The MP cost is even greater for DRKs whose overall damage is heavily tied to their MP along with a an extremely potent damage mitigatory with TBN.

Even if they take away the MP cost, which would be nice; using up a GCD to get back into tank stance will still be a problem. While going into tank stance is not technically a GCD clip, it still feels like one. I don't play WAR, but I bet a big contributor to why it 'feels' so good to play is not because of the lack of a true tank stance, but because their version of it doesn't cost them anything.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Been in a few parties over the last few days where tanks weren't using their tank stance, were loosing hate, and dying without the damage resistance.

Could we just remove the stance and give them the damage resistance and enmity generation innately?

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No, and I really do mean no.
If everyone else is doing what they should to reduce their own hate creation and the tank is still loosing hate, then that is on the tanks and they need to learn how to tank.
If the healers are healing as they should and the tank is still dying, then either their gear is really bad or they need to learn how to use their mitigation skills.
Generating hate in this game is already way to easy, the skills we have to mitigate damage are really powerful and we have more then enough of them.
Tanks in this game are already dps with a bigger hp pool and heavy armor, do we really need to dumb it down even more?

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

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but you can use it for the shake of save CD's when you need it with is the point, and what short stacks? The one's on hello world? You can easily get close the boss and secure a inner beast if you want to.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

*Large dungeon trash pulls
*healer(s) are down
*Fresh content
*MT just died
*Enmity reset
*Add phase
*shall I continue?

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-On mass pulling I pull with tank stance with is suppose to be up every time you pull something, I grab agro and use my CD's properly since they mitigate a lot of damage, turn it off just a second after and spam aoes everything, it's not hard to do and yeah as a DRK I have it a bit easier with abysal and TBN but I do it all days without causing my healers loose anything.

-healers are down, well except you can save the run somehow at least for Savage is just let's restart bcs it's a waste of time, on dungeons boses well meaby I try it when we got to in to that extreme, on extreme if no one can res the just restart unless we are at 2% or something, all of this depends of the situation and cases that are not supposed to happen in the first place and if it's happen you can save it with different forms without passing by you tank stance, it's you last card.

-fresh content? Not really except you wanna have the first world down of Savage, I progress in every content doing the same as usual and there is no problem at all, in fact I abuse more of my CDs so I can see if I can take it easily or not, I have a lot of options before use tank stance.

-MT died? A provoke and agro combo calls normally a day, if is Savage it's depend but my raid use they tools properly, I can use 2 power slash to get time enough to my partners to use diversion and other skills.

-emity restet, there is only 1 boss this expansion that use that and was neo exdeath, I use tank stance there by force and was awful, that's why we need a rework, reset mechanics and actual tank stances (except for WAR) are unfun, but in resume it's not the norm, not right now at least.

-add phases don't live enough that a few aoes can keep without tank stance, on tsukuyomi I always just unleash and abysal and move alone they die pretty quick, on halicarnasus Savage a bit of the same, if you have a proper ninja even less reasons to use it there.

Everything is about to know how to use you tools properly and you find tank stances are just mere pull tools and nothing more, the JP forums are complaint that tank stances have lost his value.

I'm the first one that say we need a rework on tank stances, give us reasons to use it and stay on it, or just delete it all together and we use our agro combos more bcs are in the same situation.

Pd: no I din't look at fflogs, I don't care much about that web, it's just my normal strat for everything, tank stance grab something and turn it off until it dies, I still have to find something that force me to stay more than the 5 seconds it's take me to finish my agro combo with any tank.

I wouldn't mind this. I don't particularly love or hate the tank stances, but it does seem like there are a lot of duty finder tanks who read what static raid group tanks post on forums about the "right" way to play and then fail all over the place.

They should remove it and add enmity stat to tanks gear. Also add enmity and defense combined materia for tanks.

I'm a tank that primarily uses their DPS stance. I've yet to die specifically because of this in years.
I've yet to have aggro management issues in months.

Tanking isn't hard.
But some people make it hard on themselves.
Not everyone is bad at tanking, some are simply learning. Some...are bad.

Don't try to change an entire role mechanic because of a couple poor situations.