Tips on being a mentor but not sounding bossy

The words you use certainly are important.

Why aren't you doing XYZ??

Why ask this when it's already obvious the person doesn't know what XYZ does or how to use it? It is pointless, accusational, and invites the other person to either admit ignorance or tell you to get on your bike. unsurprisingly, some are going to choose the latter. Either way, you aren't making any friends that way.

There's no need to challenge other users in this manner, it's counter-productive. You can make a general statement about what works/what doesn't - and don't expect an immediate reply, you also need to give the player time for it to sink in, maybe change their hotbar, etc. Just firing off challenges and expecting the other player to immediately fall into line and thank you profusely is a problem of your own expectations. What you will never know, is if that player took your comments on board and used them in their next dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Miste

People should not be getting defensive over simple words. There is literally no difference between those two sentences. You just made up a difference in your mind and there is a simple way that I know this. There is no "tone" in text on a screen and so many people fail to realize this. You are attaching your own tone to it when it may not be the same or intended tone of the person who wrote it, but in-game being text only you won't know their tone so you need to be neutral.

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It is possible to inject tone into a sentence with word choice. Look up a few posts at Vandril's. There are good examples and explanations how this is possible in that post.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

Why aren't you doing XYZ??

Why ask this when it's already obvious the person doesn't know what XYZ does or how to use it? It is pointless, accusational, and invites the other person to either admit ignorance or tell you to get on your bike. unsurprisingly, some are going to choose the latter. Either way, you aren't making any friends that way.

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You are only looking at this from your point of view.

Some people do have reasons why they do not use certain abilities or spells even if they know what they are. Or they might know the spell, but not realize the best application for it so asking them is kind of a launching off point to try to help them out.

Again simply asking a question to someone else should not be condemned like this. All they did was ask a question which the other person can reply in a civil manner, or simply ignore if they really want to.

It is only accusatory if you choose to see it that way. It might not be the intention of the person writing it at all so you are making a baseless assumption.

It is way too defensive to get upset at someone just asking a question. You have no idea what their intentions are so why jump to the negative? Maybe they were just attempting to help by starting up a conversation.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It is possible to inject tone into a sentence with word choice. Look up a few posts at Vandril's. There are good examples and explanations how this is possible in that post.

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I don't know who Vandril is, but simply the reason that it doesn't work is because everyone interprets words differently so no you cannot actually tell the intended tone of someone else through text alone unless they were using extremely obvious aggressive words like name calling, insults, swears etc. You may if you knew the person very well, but if it is someone you've never met before you do not know their tone through what they type alone.

Not everyone who plays this game is a native English speaker either so that adds onto the fact you cannot assume someone's tone through text.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I'm sorry, but Mavrias has a good point.

People should not be getting defensive over simple words. There is literally no difference between those two sentences. You just made up a difference in your mind and there is a simple way that I know this. There is no "tone" in text on a screen and so many people fail to realize this. You are attaching your own tone to it when it may not be the same or intended tone of the person who wrote it, but in-game being text only you won't know their tone so you need to be neutral.

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All nice in theory, however there are certainly phrases that sound more polite / less aggressive through text. Reducing the number of ways someone can interpret something is the most ideal way to go.. Even if it takes a few extra words to say it in a particular tone, it can make all the difference.. You can say "people should take things from a neutral ground", however that doesn't solve the issue that many (if not most) just won't.

90% of the way someone interprets a message is based on the wording of the message.. If you just say "Use xxxxx skill" it can come across in so many different perspectives..
Saying something like "You should try to use xxxx skill because of xxxx reason", it reduces the number of ways the message can be interpreted. Many would see the former as a demand, whereas the latter would be taken more as a small helpful tip.

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When you read something someone else has written you should take it at face value and not add an imaginary tone to it in your mind. This would cause you to not only be more relaxed, but also to not treat someone else like crap for no reason because you mislabeled their intentions. Assumptions are bad. They might have had a happy tone or a neutral tone, but you condemn them without even knowing.

If the person chatting used rude language then you obviously can tell their intention, but simply "why aren't you using scatter?" vs. "try using scatter in packs" is just the same way to convey the same information. One is a question so the other party can answer while the other is a suggestion. In the end they mean the same thing "scatter is a good spell to use on multiple mobs" with no swearing or harassment present at all.

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"Why aren't you using scatter?" falls into that category where it can be easily interpreted as a hostile message.
Some may read it more like - "Why aren't you using scatter you noob?"
The word "Try" just makes the message come across as a much more approachable question.
eg. "Why don't you try using scatter?"

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No one is going to want to bother trying to help anyone else in this community if they need to walk on eggshells and make sure they write the most perfect sentence to make sure the other person doesn't get pissed off. I mean why do people think it is okay to verbally harass someone for asking a simple question of making a simple statement is beyond me anyway, but I see it happen too often.

The problem with trying to help others in this game isn't how people word things. The problem is people getting defensive over nothing.

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It really isn't hard to phrase a sentence in a more polite manner. Simple words can often lead the phrase open to far too much interpretation.
They verbally harass someone because their interpretation of the statement is that the advice giver is being hostile toward them. So they jump on the defense.

However yes, I will agree with your bolded statement. A big part of the issue is definitely the fact that some people are just not good at taking criticism regardless of tone. However this falls into real life as well.. Those same people likely won't take feedback very well even if it was extremely polite. It's just the way some people are wired - so you do practically have to walk on eggshells sometimes, and this isn't just in-game but real life as well.

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That is why I basically stopped offering advice or trying to help people very much anymore. I just get sh** on for it no matter how nice I try to word it.

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I can't agree with this at all. I personally very rarely get harassed for giving someone advice. In saying that, I am not saying I am an amazing or perfect person to give advice.. However people are a lot more receptive when you word it nicely.
The general responses I get are either:
- no response, and no change in their actions.
- no response, but a change in their actions.
- a yes, and a change in their actions.

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I've been told to "f*** off" more times I can count, I've been called elitist, I've been called a "c***". I mean these kind of responses you'd think I said something really horrible to them right? Nope. It is usually something like "Hey X, ______ is/are great spells/abilities you should try using them sometimes and it will help your rotation and damage" or heck before stormblood one time I got a nasty response like that for just reminding a NIN they forgot their poison buff.

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Never once have I been sworn at for giving advice.. And I actually do it fairly often. The most common two sentences I find myself saying at the moment are-
On healer - "Hey xxxx, do you mind rotating your cooldowns for me so I can contribute to DPS?"
On anything - "Hey xxxx, do you mind using your AoE skills on packs of 4 or more mobs?"

An even better way to go about it is to say in in a general sense, rather than pick one person out..
"Hey guys..." instead of "Hey person..."
Unfortunately this isn't possible when it's role specific..

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I don't think how I worded it is the problem, nor did I deserve that verbal abuse for simple questions or suggestions. People are too defensive and your post, Skivvy, kind of highlights part of the problem. Tone doesn't exist in text.

PS. I am not saying you do anything like this Skivvy, after the first paragraph the "you" are pretty much "general you" not towards you personally. Just branched off your post to explain why wording things isn't the problem.

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Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that you are a rubbish advice giver or anything :P
I am just pointing out that from my experience, getting harassed for offering advice is extremely rare.. Generally if someone doesn't want it, they just don't say anything and carry on with what they are doing.

On a final note.. I generally don't like giving advice in a question format..
Saying something like..
"Why don't you...." or "Why aren't you...." can come across as confrontational.
On the flip side..
"You should try..." can sound a lot more polite.

I'd say the best way is to not blur advice to the point it sounds like criticism. The line that divides those two things is pretty thin.

At the start of the duty it might help new players to feel more confident and less nervous about messing up with phrases like: "Hello! If anyone needs help with mechanics or anything else, please let me know."
That welcomes the player to ask for help if they want to. Sometimes even people that mess up don't like to receive help and preffer to learn things on their own.

In the end everything changes based on how you phrase yourself. Per example, if you see a Conjurer or White Mage that is brand new, casting Medica for single target heals. Don't call the mistake as common sense, even though it might look like common sense to you and everyone else. Make the player feel like he can relate to you and vice versa.
"Hey, playername, I remember when I started to level up healers I caught myself using Medica like that too. If you use just Cure, it won't be as punishing for your MP and it's also stronger for single target. Have you tried it?"
Even if you haven't done it, sometimes a small "lie" can make whoever you are teaching to feel like everybody makes those kinds of mistakes, even the almighty mentors at the scary end game community. And can make them feel like if you made a mistake similar to theirs in the past, tomorrow they might be someone like you mentoring new players as well.
And if you feel like this approach is not helping, then try just asking. "Hey, playername, would you mind if I gave you some tips? It might help you a lot in this trial/dungeon/fight."
Mentioning that you feel like your help is just going to impact this one trial/dungeon/fight creates the ilusion that the player isn't messing up with anything else but this one encounter. And if they are willing to listen to the help, it'll end up impacting the way they play altogether subconsciously.

Not sure if this will help you, or even if it would help anyone here. But when it comes to me, it helps, and it also helped other players I came across playing this game and many others. To me the key to being able to help someone is to make them feel like you also needed help at some point, while respecting their bondaries if they feel like your help is not what they need.

In a daily dungeon, just stick to what needs to be done as far as mechanics go if issues come up with wiping. As for anything else, just roll with it and work towards getting to the end. If they stop and ask for tips, then open your mouth. Have some faith that they will eventually learn down the road somewhere what they might be doing wrong or could improve/upgrade. Just like the rest of us did at some point, and still do.

Note that the mentor system is one of the dumbest ideas put into the game. That crown icon over your head is unnecessary. If you feel like the crown and rewards somehow makes you feel special, then you are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

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Originally Posted by Altena

"Why aren't you using scatter?" falls into that category where it can be easily interpreted as a hostile message.
Some may read it more like - "Why aren't you using scatter you noob?"

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That is actually the same problem I just pointed out. The original question did not have the word "noob" in it, the person just tacked it on in their mind and then blames the person asking the question for something they didn't even say. The question is only hostile if you make it hostile which adding "noob" at the end does, but thing is the person who asked didn't even say "noob".

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Originally Posted by Altena

It really isn't hard to phrase a sentence in a more polite manner. Simple words can often lead the phrase open to far too much interpretation.
They verbally harass someone because their interpretation of the statement is that the advice giver is being hostile toward them. So they jump on the defense.

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I am not saying it is hard, but people aren't perfect we might not word things absolutely the best all the time even if our intentions are completely amiable and nice. That's why a lot of people don't want to deal with helping others with walking on eggshells. Not all people are native English speakers either so they might not know our language as well or different ways to word things....should people immediately condemn them for anything they might type even if their intentions are innocent and just trying to help, but they just might not know a better way to word what they are saying?

I mean maybe I have more insight into this than some others having known someone where you literally had to be scanning and searching and preparing everything you say ahead of time because they might get mad and decide to slap you across the face for it.

It's nerve racking, it's stifling, and it is somewhat the same problem as having to search and scan and carefully prepare everything you type in-game for fear you'll piss someone off. I don't consider that a good time, you know, worrying every time you want to type something that you are going to upset someone even though your intentions are completely innocent.

This is supposed to be a social game, but I've gotten to the point where deciding to type anything in DF is a risk I am not going to bother taking much anymore because people just make up their own interpretation or tone in their mind about what I typed and then lash out at me instead of just asking me civilly to clarify what I was asking or saying to them.

Are you condoning verbal harassment towards someone just because they asked a question? I mean I hope not, but I am asking because I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. There is no excuse for harassment no matter how the question was worded (of course minus harassment, name calling, or insults on the question askers end)

My whole post was mostly about that you shouldn't verbally harass someone for just asking a question. You shouldn't interpret it in your own mind and make assumptions about the other person's intentions without knowing any facts. If someone asks you a question and you are unsure of their intentions you can simply ask a question back to judge the situation better instead of immediately getting defensive.

The assumptions are causing people to treat innocent people like garbage just because they happen to ask a question or try to offer help.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I can't agree with this at all. I personally very rarely get harassed for giving someone advice.
Never once have I been sworn at for giving advice..
I am just pointing out that from my experience, getting harassed for offering advice is extremely rare.. Generally if someone doesn't want it, they just don't say anything and carry on with what they are doing.

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If you don't agree that's fine; I wasn't asking for validation on my experiences because they are only my experiences. Your experiences are obviously yours, but it isn't my experience and I word things very nicely and similar to you. I never said I don't ever get any good response at all, I do sometimes, but the bad times sure do stick out badly and of course I get the ignore-it-all people as well.

So either you've been very lucky, or I've been very unlucky, whichever you want to pick. Just because you haven't been harassed doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that I am doing something severely wrong with how I type things. In your experience it is rare, in mine it isn't rare. There isn't much to discuss about this particular part of my post since it is all personal experiences. It still points out why people shouldn't throw down the gavel and yell "guilty" just because someone posed a simply worded question or suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Miste

You are only looking at this from your point of view.

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That's how everyone sees things. You included.

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Originally Posted by Miste

All they did was ask a question which the other person can reply in a civil manner, or simply ignore if they really want to.

It is only accusatory if you choose to see it that way. It might not be the intention of the person writing it at all so you are making a baseless assumption.

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When you know you have a chance of something you say being taken the wrong way, when it's been explained to you by more than one person here why that particular approach does not often work - and your own experience has born that out - why are you still defending it?

and if that comment annoyed you, I have made my point.

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Originally Posted by DevilsDontFly

And if you feel like this approach is not helping, then try just asking. "Hey, playername, would you mind if I gave you some tips? It might help you a lot in this trial/dungeon/fight."
Mentioning that you feel like your help is just going to impact this one trial/dungeon/fight creates the ilusion that the player isn't messing up with anything else but this one encounter. And if they are willing to listen to the help, it'll end up impacting the way they play altogether subconsciously.

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I occasionally play with a real life friend, and I remember when someone was trying to give him some advice for Tanking. He felt like it was some kind of personal attack or demand, and it took me a bit of effort to explain to him later that the guy was honestly just trying to help, to make sure we were able to get through the dungeon.

I feel like this approach, actually asking the player if they'd like some advice, might have worked out a lot better, instead of offering unsolicited advice, or at least in my friend's specific case. (I guess it would be different for everyone, though.)

I believe his words (after we got out of the dungeon) were, "I hate other people telling me how to play." (But he never minds when I tell him what to do, hah.)

In my own case as a newbie (this is my first MMO ever, and I've only been playing three months), I always appreciate advice, and have been in online communities enough that things that might bother other newbies don't really get to me. The community here is very helpful (at least on my server), and I appreciate all the help I can get. I've only had two people that seemed "elitist" to me, , but their "advice" was also entirely unhelpful: "WTF is that Monk doing?" and "WTF are you DPSing right now?"

I almost kind of miss my leaf, because I haven't been getting much advice lately, lol!

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

That's how everyone sees things. You included.

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I actually meant you are only looking at it from your point in view in the case that you didn't know that some people may have reasons for not using certain spells or abilities and not because they don't know they are there so it isn't actually a pointless thing to ask someone that sometimes. If you didn't know that then now you do.

Actually I am not only seeing things from my point of view. I am advocating that we shouldn't declare someone guilty without knowing their actual intentions. A question alone is not inherently a rude or a bad thing nor is it accusatory (as long as the person asking is neutral/polite/general and not using insults, name calling, or harassing language)

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

When you know you have a chance of something you say being taken the wrong way, when it's been explained to you by more than one person here why that particular approach does not often work - and your own experience has born that out - why are you still defending it?

and if that comment annoyed you, I have made my point.

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Uh...I think you have severely misunderstood something here, because no I am not annoyed, but I am confused at your response.

The point I am trying to defend is that harassment should never be okay. I am saying that someone who may pose a question like that might be completely innocent and not intending to upset anyone. So maybe people should not harass someone for that simple question. I mean I can put out a scenario I suppose to try to help you understand what I am trying to say.

Person A is helpful, she likes to help others, she has fun chatting, anytime she wants to help someone she has the the intention of doing it just to be nice and to be helpful and zero malice.
Person B is in a DF with Person A and is doing a mechanic very incorrectly (just going to make this in general so any mechanic fight or job related)

Person A nicely and politely asks Person B if they understand the mechanic.
Person B answers rudely and harasses Person A with insults.

So...what person B did was okay in your eyes? Because that is the scenario I am saying shouldn't happen, yet I've seen it happen. So I don't know what point or argument you are trying to make here.

I am defending and advocating that if someone poses a question or suggestion to someone else if they are unsure of their intentions they can easily ask a question back instead of getting defensive and throwing insults at a person who may have just been trying to help out of kindness. How they word it isn't the problem because the person has the option to ask for clarification and see where it goes from there.

I mean people jumping to negative conclusions just circulates more hate and malice, why would we want that?

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Originally Posted by Miste

If someone asks you a question and you are unsure of their intentions you can simply ask a question back to judge the situation better instead of immediately getting defensive.

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