id like to see cross class skills removed/changed for next expansion

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Originally Posted by Canadane

This request sounds like a way to get off from levelling other classes.

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It doesn't have to be;

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Originally Posted by Nalien

And for those worried about the fact that cross-class skills exist to have you "sample" other Jobs... Well, Jobs already do that, and such quests could carry on the additional class requirement the first Job quests had. Even tie in with the old classes; The quest for Suiyaku could have you taking your Ninja friends to Ul'dah to learn from the Pugilists, for example. Naturally you'd need Pugilist leveled for that. Actually having quests like that would make it far more obvious what skills you want to set as well. There would be no Warriors who don't know what Provoke is, because they'd see the quest unlocking their version of Provoke and work towards doing that quest.

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If they give Jobs their own version of cross-class skills, then they can throw whatever requirements they want at that quest. They can say "If you want your own version of Second Wind on Ninja, you'll need Lv30 Ninja and Pugilist for the quest", or "If you want your own unique version of Invigorate on Monk, you'll need Lv30 Monk and Lancer for the quest".

Even though some cross-class skills go beyond Lv30, this would essentially make everything more uniform (which is a good thing IMO). All you'd need is to have completed the class quests in order to get the new skills, for some skills that's more work, for others it's less. Overall though, it would add more lore to Jobs and give the current cross-class skills more identity to their Job. Suiyaku doesn't need to be the same as Second Wind. Any such new skills they add can tie into the Jobs existing mechanics to be a unique version; Ninja has those Venoms used for all of two skills, with unique "cross-class" skills, you can tie more skills into that.

Unfortunately the cross-class system has become more strict than at first.

Any future healer from this point on will have to be able to cross-class Conjurer and Thaumaturge. Why? The necessity of Protect and Swiftcast at this point.

Any future tank will absolutely need Gladiator for Provoke.

DPS roles offer the most flexibility, but without newer jobs being added to the pool of potential cross-class to pull from, the same Blood for Blood, Invigorate, Raging Strikes, etc. blandness will continue to be the equation. Unless they make duplicate/extremely similar abilities for them, they've put certain roles into already predictable corners.

but u wont be able to cross class from new jobs ....since new jobs have no "class" , and i doubt SE will add any new class , just jobs.

As it stands, a lot of our cross-class skills are of fairly core importance. Try imagining a BLM without Raging Strikes or Quelling Strikes (especially on those bad-tank DF days), or a SCH without Cleric Stance. Some jobs honestly feel like they need all 5 of their worthwhile choices, or 4 + whichever of the remaining 3 best suits the fight. That being said, that may all be less a reason to remove cross-class skills so much as just automatically grant them at a certain level per role, or replace them with new abilities of different dynamics but similar purpose (Aether Manifest for BLM in place of Raging Strikes, Umbral Presence in place of Quelling Strikes, etc).

But the latter case makes you wonder: wouldn't the only one left with an incredibly basic iteration of that breed of ability be its original (essentially, the original feels like the knockoff)? And for what real purpose? We're used to what we have, the changes in how those particular abilities work, if limited to their prior purposes, aren't likely to enhance gameplay, and all of it comes at development cost. At that point the only real options seem to be to leave to let it lie, or give people the further benefit of not using what makes XIV unique in the form of multiple jobs on one class (which, having said all that, the weekly caps kind of already reinforce) by giving cross-class abilities for free.

Pipedream: Someday, maybe... when I'm doing what I'm doing, leveling what I'm leveling, that experience will go towards all classes or abilities to which that experience is relevant. Someday, Provoke won't always be Gladiator level 22. It won't always even be Provoke. Someday.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

but u wont be able to cross class from new jobs ....since new jobs have no "class" , and i doubt SE will add any new class , just jobs.

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Well, there is nothing saying they have to restrict themselves to the current two classes per Job system. If they give us quests to unlock new skills to replace cross-class ones, they could break the mould with it. Jobs could use (unique version of) skills from Rogue, for example. Bard doesn't have to be restricted to the Pugilist and Lancer skills it currently has, they can offer more supportive skills (like Goad, granted Bard already effectively has that) and whats more, since they'd be unique to Bard, they can actually reinforce Bards identity; Rather than Mantra, Bard could get a Song that does the same thing. Bad example, Bard already gets Mantra, but you get the idea;

5 extra unique skills that can reinforce the Jobs identity, rather than being carbon copies of other Jobs skills.
Quests that can maintain the "sample other classes" intention behind cross-class skills, and further add to Job identity (more quests with Job trainers!).
Potential to break the mould and give Jobs a selection from a wider variety of classes, since we'd be restricted by the quests, rather than what can be cross-classed.

I guess a better example would be the mages... What does Scholar need from Thaumaturge? Surecast and Blizzard II are OK, but it's mostly all Swiftcast. Scholar can have a quest for a new version of Swiftcast, that requires Thaumaturge leveled, but then it doesn't have to be locked to picking Surecast and Blizzard II, it could level Rogue and have a quest for something similar to Goad.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

How? How does using another Jobs skills add to any sense of class identity? How does giving Jobs their own version of these cross-class skills remove any identity?

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Simple. Now, I am not saying that using other classes' actions GIVES class identity, I'm saying that TAKING other classes' actions and redesigning them to fit another job (and assuming they would essentially do the same thing in the end) would TAKE AWAY those unique things to every class. How is it good at the moment, you may wonder, well that is simple too - you have leveled a CNJ and earned your Protect. You have the knowledge. This is fantasy-wise, of course. Mechanics-wise, it might be the easy way to go with the new expansion, but let's leave that up to developers. I just don't want to see the same thing from other MMOs happening here - every healer having 5 same mechanincs, only that they have different names and icons. Or a 4 button rotation. No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I know some people like it but I wouldn't mind seeing the rotations trimmed down to maybe World of WarCraft levels.

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This is what I am talking about as well. Simplifying everything because of certain kids coming from MOBAs just to fit their narrow-minded gamestyle is ridiculous. WoW had best mechanics in WotLK. In the upcoming Legion everything is the same. Every healer will have a HoT, an AoE, an emergency heal and a spammable heal. And all the classes got the same CC. This is the class identity I am talking about. I just hope SE won't dumb down the game because certain individuals can't cope with their systems. I tried ESO, you get two sets of weapons, and an action bar for each. Each action bar has 5 buttons plus an ultimate ability. You know what that was like? BORING and mind numbning. SWTOR had 4 abilities doing the exact same things with different tooltip/CD.. Sigh..

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Originally Posted by Synrin

I just don't want to see the same thing from other MMOs happening here - every healer having 5 same mechanincs, only that they have different names and icons. Or a 4 button rotation. No thanks.

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Which is essentially exactly what you're arguing against... You're arguing to keep the current system, which is essential all Jobs sharing the same 5 skills. All healers have Protect. All DPS have Invigorate. They all have the exact same skills. Why are you against changing that?

What I'm suggesting is to give us unique versions of said skills. Not just different names and icons. Different skills with the same net result, I don't know how my previous example could be any more clear... Dragoon, Monk, and Ninja all currently have Invigorate, when instead they could all have a skill that does the same thing (restores own TP), just in different ways, even tying into their individual Job mechanics.

Sticking with my Suiyaku suggestion for Ninja, lets make it a combination of Invigorate and Second Wind; Kiss of the Wasp, it's TP recovery. Kiss of the Viper, it's HP recovery. Both weaker than Second Wind and Invigorate, but also on a lower cooldown. How is that making Ninja the same as Dragoon or Monk? How is that worse than literally just giving Ninja Second Wind and Invigorate, as is currently the case? You don't want Jobs to have the 5 same mechanics, yet that is exactly what cross-class skills do. Dragoon, Monk and Ninja all have the same Second Wind self heal. They all have the same Invigorate TP recovery. They all have Blood for Blood. What is being suggested here is to change that so they all have something unique instead.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Which is essentially exactly what you're arguing against... You're arguing to keep the current system, which is essential all Jobs sharing the same 5 skills. All healers have Protect. All DPS have Invigorate. They all have the exact same skills. Why are you against changing that?

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You see what you want to see. Read my last post, there is an explanation what I mind with this entire discussion. The idea itself, as any other, has its pros and cons, but most of the people just want things to be 'made easier' or simplified. It isn't always a bad thing to tidy certain things up, but come on...

I don't want new skills that are the same as the one's I've already leveled on other roles. Sorry I want new and better *new skills* as opposed to those that some want because they aren't interested in leveling the other roles/classes in other to get them. Seems some really want to dumb down the process be it the ability to meld without a craft or even having to bother now with leveling other roles to get skills they need to be efficient.

You want invigorate go level lancer, or raging strikes go level archer, just like all of us did before but don't nerf the new content in order to have SE to do the work for you.