Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

You're just misunderstanding it.

I'm saying performance potential, not DPS potential for a reason. For DPS, performance potential largely equals DPS potential. Healers and Tanks have to heal and mitigate/keep aggro, but they can also add DPS beyond that. So their performance potential includes not just their mitigation/healing, but also any DPS they could add after meeting the heal/mitigation checks, not the DPS they could pull on a dummy with no concern to their primary function.

If I was assuming what you think I am assuming, I'd have to give Yoshidas assumption for healers 0% of their performance potential and tanks around 20%, because he doesn't assume "any" DPS for healers and only autoattack + aggro combo for tanks. I didn't, I gave them around 50-60% precisely because I am already accounting for their main job in my guess.

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OK, thanks, I was misunderstanding. I saw the 85-90% of dummy performance and thought you meant 85-90% of max DPS while at the same time healing, my mistake.

I have no trouble expecting players of all roles to do all the can to contribute to team performance, and that includes maxing DPS where possible. Unfortunately though the training dummies in the game are only useful for practicing all out DPS, not blended healing/damage dealing, or aggro management/damage dealing. I wish they were able to do that as well, it might be helpful for healers/tanks wanting to practice their stance dancing. Personally I find it easier to handle dancing in and out of CS as a healer than I do with Sword and Shield oath on PLD. I think it's because it's immediately clear if you're not healing strongly enough and need to switch back from CS, while as a tank you only really know when you're running the aggro too closely when enemies start peeling off you. It would be nice if there was a clearer earlier warning that your aggro is declining. I still am not 100% comfortable stance dancing on PLD, even though I main that, while as a healer I feel it's easier to manage.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I wasn't suggesting that healers should not contribute, it was the thought hat they should hit 85-90% of their dummy damage potential while healing that irked me. If you want a healer who is not only monitoring player HP but actively healing to also hit up to 90% of their damage potential against a dummy, then how is it unreasonable to expect DPS to be hitting high 90s of their potential? Healer damage potential on a dummy excludes any healing activity.

If you are expecting healers to hit 90% of that potential while at the same time caring for the healing work, how are you not expecting more from healers? Seems to me that's expecting near flawless performance from healers, so DPS need to live up to the same expectations while dodging all the AoEs.

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Fair enough. I took it to mean 85-90% relative to performance not straight damage. Ideally, everyone should be striving to improve however they are able. Something to keep in mind though, upper 90s on healer can be somewhat misleading. For example, if they got that number because their co-healer basically solo healed the entire fight, it's not really impressive. But otherwise, it sounds like we agree.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I think it's because it's immediately clear if you're not healing strongly enough and need to switch back from CS, while as a tank you only really know when you're running the aggro too closely when enemies start peeling off you.

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A good rule of thumb is if you can barely see any empty space on the little aggro bar, do your enmity combo. If you have a well geared Monk or Black Mage, do your enmity combo twice before switching to Sword. That should give you a more comfortable lead. In raid settings, have the Warrior pull and provoke off them at some point. They generate far higher aggro than Paladin or Dark Knight. If at any point a Warrior pulls off you, find out if they're Butcher's Block spamming and bap them on the head if they are. :)

Ideally, once you swap stances, you don't want to be going back at any point against bosses. Of course, gear plays a factor into this.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

**snip**
A good rule of thumb is if you can barely see any empty space on the little aggro bar, do your enmity combo. If you have a well geared Monk or Black Mage, do your enmity combo twice before switching to Sword. That should give you a more comfortable lead. In raid settings, have the Warrior pull and provoke off them at some point. They generate far higher aggro than Paladin or Dark Knight. If at any point a Warrior pulls off you, find out if they're Butcher's Block spamming and bap them on the head if they are. :)

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I'd hope that the aggro generation of DRK and PLD will catch up to WAR at some point in the near future. That said, and depending on job specific UI elements, I will have to re-examine my HUD to ensure I'm seeing aggro meters.

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Ideally, once you swap stances, you don't want to be going back at any point against bosses. Of course, gear plays a factor into this.

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That's what I figured, though I think my gear is not quite where it needs to be. So I may have to switch back earlier to tank stance until I finish gearing properly.

Perhaps the title of the thread is kind of barking up the wrong tree, after all I certainly can't say I've noticed a shortage of healers in general on Chaos.

The biggest issue is rather addressing the disparity in skill between top tier players and casuals who might get flustered and panic at a big pull in expert.

Tinkering with cleric stance alone isn't going to fix this, it's just going to take one persons problem and pass it on to someone else depending on what's done. Same goes for making/breaking healer DPS in general, that's a moot point.

Content is probably the best approach to help the very worst healers out there tbh. What's to stop SE having a job quest where you get your squadron in a full party with you and you've got to keep them alive through a messy dungeon run? It'd be easy to demonstrate the dangers of spamming medica II as well as teach the art of playing whackamole with party targeting rather than getting flustered and falling behind on healing.

Adding a 4th healer that can generate DPS for the party through buffs (Or taking the knife to AST and making it properly fit the role it should have done from day one imho) rather than personal DPS would also help open up options to better suit varying play styles and players that are perhaps too timid to 'lock themselves in' with cleric.

Tunnel visioning in on a mindless debate about healer DPS is pretty pointless as it's never going to achieve anything. Yoshida's vision of the game just isn't 'hardcore' enough anymore to ever truly require it for anything other than early end game progression, he gave it a go with Gordias and it evidently didn't work out in his eyes (which is a shame as A3S was a masterpiece).

As a reference for newer raiders, or those that don't really go for savage content;

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Example: World First A12S clear was killed 2 minutes ahead of the enrage timer. (11:36 second kill- enrage is 13:30)

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By comparison, the world first A3S was killed literally as enrage finished casting, this is why a lot of raiders consider Creator to be by far the easiest raid tier we've had yet. I had a pug run the other day where 3 DPS and the OT all died during the second Inception, I raised all 4 people and we still killed it before the second set of fountains went off. It's madness really =(

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

You're missing my point. The healers did 10% damage and they did it 2 minutes faster than required. I shouldn't have to explain the math. For healer DPS to actually matter, they would have needed to do over 20% and have to have other raid members making 0 mistakes. It goes without saying when DPS make a mistake, that's a DPS loss.

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I think it's you who is missing my point. :) In the case you used as an example, obviously they didn't need healer DPS - and I didn't claim they did.

My point was, many raid fights (not all, many) do require healer DPS from any raid team - even the best raid teams in the world - because the DPS check is set so high that it's impossible to beat otherwise. And, because there are fights that are impossible to beat with the item level available when the fights are added to the game even with the best possible DPS and tank players and optimal performance if the healer DPS is 0, it is misleading to use that one developer quote to claim otherwise. What the quote actually says is that at the item level and performance level the content was tested, the content is possible to beat without healer DPS. And that is correct.

But that requires specific circumstances that are often very far from our actual experience from doing this content in game as standard players instead of developers. Which is yet another reason it's misleading to use this quote as an argument against healer DPS. I asked earlier if anyone has or knows anyone who has actually beaten these fights with 0 healer DPS close to when they're released, and at least no one so far has said they have. Because when even the world's best groups require healer DPS to beat these fights at the start, average raiding groups will require it for a long time after that - unless we're starting to set standards for DPS players much higher than we're setting them for raid healers.

(On a personal note related to the previous point, I also dislike people using that quote as an argument because it leads players who are new to this level of content to actually believe that DPS players in average raiding teams should be able to handle all DPS checks by themselves without any contribution from the healers - "because Yoshi P said so" and because it's what getting repeated on the forums: "raids can be completed without healer DPS". I just find that using this argument as a person who has actually experienced doing this content when it's been fresh is something akin to intellectual dishonesty - because they know, first hand, that it's not the reality of the raiding experience.)

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

No matter how you phrase it, it just comes across as "I know better than the director and developer, somehow, without any of the tools or data tables or anything other than a video of a clear with a fight of a vague enrage."

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Again, that's not saying I or anyone else thinks Yoshida is wrong, because that's not what is said here. It's saying that Yoshida himself does not think and has not claimed that these fights can be beaten without healer DPS when they are added to the game.

Edit: Thank you Sebazy for finding this:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Lastly, it's also worth remembering the quote in it's entirety:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi P

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

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I don't think anyone wants to remove healer dps completely, I don't even think thats a good idea at all. The idea is that we spend way more time DPSing in a role that was not created for that purpose but people seem to think this is in large part a giant attack on healer DPS when its not (or atleast it hasn't been for me)... That time could be spent doing other things like buffing for example (Why doesn't whm have haste?). I've never been against cleric stance for anything other than pointless skill bloat and an unnecessary annoyance... In fact taking it out would make it a lot easier for healers to DoT and dps at their leisure which is why I think alot of people consider clerics some kind of healer player skill modifier. People who don't use it might even be more inclined to toss out DPS at their leisure without it. Why would you want it for just for a player skill level curve? Why can't healer damage be scaled from Mind? I honestly think that healers should be doing mostly buffing and Doting in their down time with occasional heavy DPS spell when their really is nothing healing/support to do. Just having DoT on the majority of the fight contributes a significant amount of damage. Currently I do believe the heavy DPS spell variants don't cost enough mp though and being able to spam those is questionable. I can agree whm has a lack of MP regenerative ability in comparison to the other 2 healers but that's a class problem that needs balancing. Just like whm has no buff toolkit at all to mess around with in comparison to scholar or astro. Even scholar in my opinion having a fairy with the buff toolkit was a bad idea cause we have to choose which fairy to use from the start of the fight, switching mid fight is pretty annoying without quickcast.

I currently enjoy scholar but I would be perfectly ok with trying out healer meta changes. I don't like the current way of things but I DO enjoy scholar still. I have a feeling I would enjoy astro the most due to its buff toolkit but I don't have any plans to level anymore healing classes with the way things currently are.

Oooh, I didn't spot this little nugget, gonna pitch in on this as well <3

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

No matter how you phrase it, it just comes across as "I know better than the director and developer, somehow, without any of the tools or data tables or anything other than a video of a clear with a fight of a vague enrage."

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Again, apologies for the elitist tone I'm probably about to take but meh, there just isn't any way I can sugar coat it.

The whole Yoshida 'Healer DPS isn't required' thing came about because of the community backlash over the DPS checks in Gordias Savage. A substantial portion of the hardcore raid community were reeling in surprise at the optimisation required to get past Hand of Pain in A3S, whilst the casual groups were getting their posteriors handed back to them at the gates on brass platters by savage mode Faust. It's also important to note that Yoshida most certainly hasn't got a perfect track record of always being correct about his own game either. We've seen occasions where the community's opinion has overruled Yoshida's vision despite his objections. The Warrior overhaul in early ARR is likely the most apparent example of this.

Lastly, it's also worth remembering the quote in it's entirety:

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

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This was *VERY* relevant during Gordias and somewhat relevant during Midas (A6S in particular), Creator is the odd one out here.

And no, my opinion isn't from a video of a clear with a fight of a vague enrage, sorry =(

Also, that moment when I realise I'm pitching in on the very same argument I just called mindless ;)

Handily I've got a nigh 3 foot thick stone wall right next to me, I'm just gonna go over there and headbutt it a bit brbrb =(

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I don't think anyone wants to remove healer dps completely, I don't even think thats a good idea at all. .

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Then why where you saying you needed to make DPS spells cost more MP? that is basically what you said earlier

"Lets remove DPS from WHM if we remove cleric stance by costing them more MP, thus stopping them to DPS because they would not have MP to DPS, I only want SCH to DPS because that is the only job I know"

Do people ever try to examine the full picture before suggesting a change? On that note stop following me around and whining about me calling you a troll. I did not say that because you were giving an opinion, I said that because it really seemed to where trying to troll by contradicting yourself over a grievance thinking holy is so damn OP.

There is a problem with game design when say a healer can go OOM with a top gear/ skill level SMN and a useless i270 brd in an expert. What that shows us is:
DPS rotations are too hard for the average player
WHM DPS spells cost too much MP RIGHT NOW

Even in boss fights, stone III etc, she OOM right at the end of it (first boss she had enough and told the brd to ballad her so she can make up the loss DPS)

Also I am still wondering about people with the view of "Dev team did not intend healer to DPS in group content" Do you still think this? Why? The Dev team most certainty did so, but made it "not a requirement" because you can't quote people's skill level. If they did require it, people will be unable to clear content, that is the only reason it is not factored in as a baseline. Using the excuse "dev team did not intend healers to DPS so I am not going to" is just trying to find a fallacy to defend a habit mindset (healers should only heal) It is just trying to make an excuse to be lazy, the dev team should not make changes around that kind of reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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What I have to say to Yoshi P's statement is as blatent as it can get. If you want me to dps as my healer during a new savage or Extreme fight, then I'll make YOU Heal it and I'll dps instead. Simple and Clean.

Not everyone is a Worlds First wannabe. If we have time to wait and get better gear than that's what we can do, and thats what I'm doing since Storm Blood is literally a month away and there's no point in getting better gear since all my gear ow will be rendered garbage compared to the new gear. Won't stop me from getting some content practice though, and the dps can cry all they want, I'll dps when I'm used to the fight.